My Results...

[JanSz]

Hi Jansz,

I think I'll puruse the adrenals/thyroid angle in the next few discussions with the endo. I felt that just getting started on some sort of treatment was a start at least!

The injections are at 0, 6 and 12 weeks and then every 10-12 weeks thereafter. Bloods are taking pre jab I think to check levels. Someone else on a UK forum persuaded his endo to let him do 1ml/250mg every 2.5 weeks with good results. I think if my levels aren't high enough I'll aim for that.

Anyway - it's now day 8 after my jab. The jab itself wasn't sore at all and there was no pain post jab either. The worse was worried that it was going to hurt so she was quite relieved!

I think I felt a bit of a test buzz on day 3. I'm starting to feel like I have more energy and getting up in the morning is much easier. Hopefully the effects will increase over then next week or so. I've not noticed any effect on my running yet but my hematocrit will be increasing so I should notice something soon!

Cheers,

Correct me if I am wrong.
Nebido come as 4mL volume, containing 1000mg testosterone.

If you end up on shots every 10 weeks
that is 100mg/week testosterone on average

that is much less than I was planning
that is much less frequent than I was planning
that will cause higher ups and lower lows, higher variations

You still will be MUCH better off that with out any testosterone
but it will not be optimal.

Recently published study
10000men
10 years
men with their BioAvailableTestosterone
within upper 25% had 41% advantage in longevity over the ballance of the 10000.

I was planning to get you to those level.

Test and verify.

Good luck.
You are getting good treatment,
that still can be improved.
.
.

 

[Lammermoor]

You are getting good treatment,
that still can be improved.

Hi Jansz,

I think that's spot on. You're also correct re the amount of T available in a single shot of Nebido. I think that's why they do the loading shots. My next one (6 weeks) on 20 Aug and there's another 6 weeks later. I then have an endo appt on 26 Oct - it'll be interesting to see what my levels are then! If it doesn't look like they're high enough I'll try to get more regular jabs I think. 1ml nebido every 2.5 - 3 weeks might be OK. I assume Nebido would not be suitable for subq injections?

Cheers,

 

[JanSz]

Hi Jansz,

I think that's spot on. You're also correct re the amount of T available in a single shot of Nebido. I think that's why they do the loading shots. My next one (6 weeks) on 20 Aug and there's another 6 weeks later. I then have an endo appt on 26 Oct - it'll be interesting to see what my levels are then! If it doesn't look like they're high enough I'll try to get more regular jabs I think. 1ml nebido every 2.5 - 3 weeks might be OK. I assume Nebido would not be suitable for subq injections?

Cheers,

I am proponent of shallow injections for T cypionate and enanthate because at the same time I am advocating EOD injections.
That combinations makes individual doses very small.

I would not recommend shalow injections done once a week, they are to large.

In your case, they inject you with 4mL volume, that have to go deep in, 1.5".

Even if you used 1.33cc dose every 15 days
that would have to be injected deep, say 1" deep.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Whatever you can put into 30units insulin syringe,
can be injected 5/16" below skin level, I think.
That would be straight in, not on an angle.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Do not forget about HCG.


,

 

[Lammermoor]

Hi all,

Just had my second jab - just as pain free as the first. The first 6 weeks after jab1 went OK - I had a noticable change over the first three weeks and then I could feel it declining. Got a bad depressive episode around this point but then it stabilised. At the start of week 5 I felt achey again and my sleep wasn't as good.

Hopefully it'll all improve again over the next week or so and won't decline as much at jab2+3 weeks.

Hope you're all doing well.

BTW - Jansz - I think the nurse is using a 2" pin on me - no big deal as you don't feel it once it's in. Interesting though about using 1"+ for 1.33ml - I guess with that volume it has to go in deep enough!

Cheers,

 

[Lammermoor]

Re HCG - I think that's a tough one to get here in the UK - I'll ask about it when I go in to see the Endo in Oct. They mentioned doing some KISS peptide trial so I'll maybe bargain against that!!

 

[JanSz]

Hi all,

Just had my second jab - just as pain free as the first. The first 6 weeks after jab1 went OK - I had a noticable change over the first three weeks and then I could feel it declining. Got a bad depressive episode around this point but then it stabilised. At the start of week 5 I felt achey again and my sleep wasn't as good.

Hopefully it'll all improve again over the next week or so and won't decline as much at jab2+3 weeks.

Hope you're all doing well.

BTW - Jansz - I think the nurse is using a 2" pin on me - no big deal as you don't feel it once it's in. Interesting though about using 1"+ for 1.33ml - I guess with that volume it has to go in deep enough!

Cheers,

You are getting injections of what?
post, what, how much, how often, where?

Why it have to be done by nurse?
Cant you do your own shots?
How old are you?

.

 

[kesam]

I am just about to take my 3rd inj of nebido but think I am going to do it on a 1cc every 15days cycle. Doc has allowed self inject and a 9 week protocol so I am just tweaking it a little. HCG 250 twice weeklyand liquidex same helped mood swings at 5 week point.

 

[Lammermoor]

I am just about to take my 3rd inj of nebido but think I am going to do it on a 1cc every 15days cycle. Doc has allowed self inject and a 9 week protocol so I am just tweaking it a little. HCG 250 twice weeklyand liquidex same helped mood swings at 5 week point.

I've got my 3rd jab in a couple of days. I have to admit I'm feeling not bad at all and my athletic ability seems to have taken a bit of a jump upwards! Doing 1cc every 15 days sounds good but I think I'll wait until I see my tests from week 6 and week 12 (the next jab) before I do anything. Due to see the endo at the end of Oct so I'll see how I feel until then. I definitely don't want to wait 12 weeks until the next jab though!

Keep us informed on how you get on kesam!

Cheers,

 

[kesam]

I have been adding 1mg liquidex (0.5 twice per weeks) and 250iu twice per week hcg to my nebido protocol but have killed my Estrogen level (test = 29pmol/l (43.0 - 151.0))Testosterone is up nicely at 19nmol/l and I feel great no stiffness etc but morning wood is getting weaker.

Would a large shot of HCG get the Estrogen number back up in range. I have a specific reason to get the estrogen number in range for early next week rather than just stopping the liquidex and waiting a couple of weeks.

I have also been taking 50mg Zinc and 1/2 teaspoon of Acetyl L Carnitine powder

I hope this is felt to be relative to this thread if not please feel free to move it mods

Regards from UK

 

[JanSz]

I am just about to take my 3rd inj of nebido but think I am going to do it on a 1cc every 15days cycle. Doc has allowed self inject and a 9 week protocol so I am just tweaking it a little. HCG 250 twice weeklyand liquidex same helped mood swings at 5 week point.

Make it 250iu?EOD EveryOtherday

you will feel even better

You know that with Nebido shots (or any other way of delivering testosterone)
you are after relatively steady levels that stays with in rather narrow (TT-max-min)

You average (TTmax+TTmin)/2 should correspond to about
FreeT~300
on chart
350 is good too.

this chart:
http://www.andropause.org.uk/nomo_tas.pdf

.


.

 

[JanSz]

I have been adding 1mg liquidex (0.5 twice per weeks) and 250iu twice per week hcg to my nebido protocol but have killed my Estrogen level (test = 29pmol/l (43.0 - 151.0))Testosterone is up nicely at 19nmol/l and I feel great no stiffness etc but morning wood is getting weaker.

Would a large shot of HCG get the Estrogen number back up in range. I have a specific reason to get the estrogen number in range for early next week rather than just stopping the liquidex and waiting a couple of weeks.

I have also been taking 50mg Zinc and 1/2 teaspoon of Acetyl L Carnitine powder

I hope this is felt to be relative to this thread if not please feel free to move it mods

Regards from UK

Be real careful with
Arimidex(pills)=Liquidex(liquid)=Anastrozole(liquid)

If you are on 10-15 days Nebido shots frequency, that should result in really smooth sailing.
That is really conducive to have natural E2 regulation done by your own body.
Most people will not need AI at all.

Do not screw with HCG, you have got excellent deal, stay with it.
Arimidex inhibited your aromatase.
It will take a while for E2 to come back, 2 weeks or more if you are like me.

.
.......

 

[kesam]

Be real careful with
Arimidex(pills)=Liquidex(liquid)=Anastrozole(liquid)

If you are on 10-15 days Nebido shots frequency, that should result in really smooth sailing.
That is really conducive to have natural E2 regulation done by your own body.
Most people will not need AI at all.

Do not screw with HCG, you have got excellent deal, stay with it.
Arimidex inhibited your aromatase.
It will take a while for E2 to come back, 2 weeks or more if you are like me.

.
.......

Thanks JanSz your advice is appreciated 250iu eod and no Liquidex is the order of the day. As you say I am on a good deal so I'm just gonna be patient and enjoy the way I'm feeling.

 

[Lammermoor]

Hi Kesam,

It does sound like you need to stop the liquidex! 29 is pretty low - maybe cause a bit of ED?

Anyhoo, I just got my third jab - the nurse spilled some unfortunately and 3.6ml went in. My T result at week 6 was 15.5. Unfortunately couldn't do bloods today as it was late on Friday but things are looking promising. I do feel pretty good at the moment...

Next Endo appt in 4 weeks...

 

[kesam]

Yup arimidx is gone. It just goes to show that you need to do the tests to KNOW what is going on rather than trying to feel whats going on.

Glad your'e feeling good Lammermoor I really think key to nebido may be spreading the ampule out over 4 injections, but time will tell

 

[JanSz]

Hi Kesam,

It does sound like you need to stop the liquidex! 29 is pretty low - maybe cause a bit of ED?

Anyhoo, I just got my third jab - the nurse spilled some unfortunately and 3.6ml went in. My T result at week 6 was 15.5. Unfortunately couldn't do bloods today as it was late on Friday but things are looking promising. I do feel pretty good at the moment...

Next Endo appt in 4 weeks...

You are getting short changed.

15.5=420ng/dL

I do not remember your SHBG, in any case that is low.
In previous posts I must have calculated approximate doses for you,
but
#1 you have to get on 10-15 days routine, shorter little better
#2 you have to get enough testosterone, enough so your FreeT and BAT are at the right levels.

If you feel better now already, that is only a half of the good news, you need more and more frequent injecting.

Talk doctor into giving you the medicine.
At least you are not going to spill it.


What are you doing about HCG???
.
.
.

 

[Lammermoor]

You are getting short changed.

15.5=420ng/dL

I do not remember your SHBG, in any case that is low.
In previous posts I must have calculated approximate doses for you,
but
#1 you have to get on 10-15 days routine, shorter little better
#2 you have to get enough testosterone, enough so your FreeT and BAT are at the right levels.

If you feel better now already, that is only a half of the good news, you need more and more frequent injecting.

Talk doctor into giving you the medicine.
At least you are not going to spill it.


What are you doing about HCG???
.
.
.

Hi Jan,

I'm still in the loading period for Nebido - I reckon I'm around low 20's nmol/L at the moment. I'll see what happens at the endo appt - I might ask to try HCG....

Cheers,

 

[Lammermoor]

Yup arimidx is gone. It just goes to show that you need to do the tests to KNOW what is going on rather than trying to feel whats going on.

Glad your'e feeling good Lammermoor I really think key to nebido may be spreading the ampule out over 4 injections, but time will tell

Yeah - I think it will be too. It'll be interesting to see how you get on. I might discuss that type of protocol with the Endo...

 

[JanSz]

Hi Jan,

I'm still in the loading period for Nebido - I reckon I'm around low 20's nmol/L at the moment. I'll see what happens at the endo appt - I might ask to try HCG....

Cheers,

My doctor have no problem writing scripts for my HCG.
Insurance is not paying.
So the whole cost is from my pocket.
Problem is that here I can buy only 10000iu portions.
That lasts too long and there is shelf life problem.
Less than half can be safely used, the rest is thrown away.

I end up getting my HCG over internet.
It is not only cheaper but it works better.

Depending on availability, I buy 1000, 1500 or 2000iu portions.
There are 5000iu available but that is too large.

Being without HCG complicates your therapy.
It is even more important when on Nebido.
With Nebido everything moves slowly.
Slowly is good, but you have to do the right moves.
.
.

 

[Lammermoor]

Being without HCG complicates your therapy.
It is even more important when on Nebido.
With Nebido everything moves slowly.
Slowly is good, but you have to do the right moves.
.
.

Hi Jan,

Can I ask how it complicates things? I would have thought the only benefit I would get from HCG would be plump testes? Mine are shrinking a bit with the T only therapy!

HCG seems to be really cheap in the UK - £2.90 for 1500 iu's!

If I can find some evidence of why I should be taking it then the endo will maybe go for it....

Thanks,

 

[JanSz]

Hi Jan,

Can I ask how it complicates things? I would have thought the only benefit I would get from HCG would be plump testes? Mine are shrinking a bit with the T only therapy!

HCG seems to be really cheap in the UK - £2.90 for 1500 iu's!

If I can find some evidence of why I should be taking it then the endo will maybe go for it....

Thanks,

Other than cosmetics, working testicles provide
sperm
testosterone
and other

supposedly pregnenolone, progesterone, possibly someone else may chime in with a list
and proof of their claims

I do not have a proof but that other stuff is also important for functioning.

You goal is to figure out dose of Nebido that would give you a steady and desirable BAT level.
In terms of test from Quest Diagnostics (USA) that is
BAT~575
Since you are in UK, the best for you is to use a chart and aim at
FreeT(250-350)
http://www.andropause.org.uk/nomo_tas.pdf

Adjusting Nebido will be a slow process due to a long half life, if you complicate this process by adding additional variable, your time to finding correct (NEBIDO + HCG) combination will get longer.
Specially if you had any significant amount of natural testosterone prior to starting TRT.

I suggest that you get ASAP on
250iu-HCG EOD (EveryOtherDay)
keep whatewer you are doing with Nebido
but
the best would be if you get on (10-15) days frequency that I discussed earlier.

.
===========================================
UK - £2.90 for 1500 iu's!

1 UK£ = 1.5938 U.S. dollars

good price, it would cost me UK£ 5.18 if I was buying today
---
2000iu 3 Ampoules Price: $33.00

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[Lammermoor]

Now about 3 weeks after my third Nebido jab and all is going OK. My athletic ability seems to be increasing a fair bit - I can run faster than I ever have with a higher heart rate for longer. I reckon my Hct must be a fair bit higher.

I've got an Endo appt on Monday so I'll see what they think there. I fancy keeping on the Nebido but at 8-10 week intervals and also to do some HCG to restore my dwindling bollocks! See what happens I guess!

 

[JanSz]

Now about 3 weeks after my third Nebido jab and all is going OK. My athletic ability seems to be increasing a fair bit - I can run faster than I ever have with a higher heart rate for longer. I reckon my Hct must be a fair bit higher.

I've got an Endo appt on Monday so I'll see what they think there. I fancy keeping on the Nebido but at 8-10 week intervals and also to do some HCG to restore my dwindling bollocks! See what happens I guess!

Glad that you are feeling good.
If possible post as many data points as you have:

date, TT=??, SHBG=??, Hemoglobin=??, Hematocrit=?, E2=??, DHT=??

date, Nebido shot=XXX(mL)=YYY(mg)
date, HCG-shot=ZZZ(iu)

..........
Make sure that you do not allow for rollercoaster.
I figured out max 15 days between Nebido shots.
That was theory based on Nebido's pharmacokinetics I deduced from chart, you tell me how you feel in practice.

--------

Good luck

.

 

[Lammermoor]

Hi Jansz,

I'll get my bloods done tomorrow and will post the results up when I get them! I've only had one TT test done at Jab 2 and it was 15nmol/L. They couldn't do it on Jab 3 as it was late on a Friday and the bloods wouldn't have gotten to the labs in time. I'll post up a summary of everything when I get the info together....

Cheers,

 

[Lammermoor]

Would you believe the endo wouldn't do any bloods when I went into see them?! Unreal! In fact the whole experience was quite poor. I got a female doc who kept going on about the placebo effect! Anyway, they agreed to continue Nebido at 12 week intervals. It's now week 7.5 after my third jab and I can certainly feel the T wearing off. I'm getting really achey first thing in the morning, my recovery ability after after running hard is decreasing and I'm getting a bit brain foggy! Hopefully my mood will stay OK and the depressive episodes won't come back.

I think doing HCG with this might make it OK but haven't a clue where to get it without prescription (in the UK) so will have to see if my doc will go for it (very unlikely!)...

Oh well - see what happens over the next few weeks!

 

[cumkwakka]

Would you believe the endo wouldn't do any bloods when I went into see them?! Unreal! In fact the whole experience was quite poor. I got a female doc who kept going on about the placebo effect! Anyway, they agreed to continue Nebido at 12 week intervals. It's now week 7.5 after my third jab and I can certainly feel the T wearing off. I'm getting really achey first thing in the morning, my recovery ability after after running hard is decreasing and I'm getting a bit brain foggy! Hopefully my mood will stay OK and the depressive episodes won't come back.

I think doing HCG with this might make it OK but haven't a clue where to get it without prescription (in the UK) so will have to see if my doc will go for it (very unlikely!)...

Oh well - see what happens over the next few weeks!

if you really really need to get stuff ask on your local bodybuilding forum with a pm who might know of a source of test/hcg/arimidex, shouldn't be that hard too find

 

[JanSz]

Would you believe the endo wouldn't do any bloods when I went into see them?! Unreal! In fact the whole experience was quite poor. I got a female doc who kept going on about the placebo effect! Anyway, they agreed to continue Nebido at 12 week intervals. It's now week 7.5 after my third jab and I can certainly feel the T wearing off. I'm getting really achey first thing in the morning, my recovery ability after after running hard is decreasing and I'm getting a bit brain foggy! Hopefully my mood will stay OK and the depressive episodes won't come back.

I think doing HCG with this might make it OK but haven't a clue where to get it without prescription (in the UK) so will have to see if my doc will go for it (very unlikely!)...

Oh well - see what happens over the next few weeks!

That sucks;
worst
your disease is coming to USA

Nebido ampoule=1000mg testosterone (4mL)
12 weeks

1000/12=83mg/week on average

You likely need twice that much or even more.
But you need also steady delivery.


#1, stay with Nebido any which way that you can get it.
Even the worst way is better than none.

#2, if you could get Nebido ampoule into your hands you could at least split it into 4 -1ml portions or even more.

HCG you can get via internet, all day chemist
one word.

There is other stuff available from internet.

..
====================================================
With all that said

It would really be good to know balance of your health status.

With so-so overall, some people by tweaking thyroid got real good results,
correcting not only thyroid but other area.
But you have to think more of
proper metabolic rate
than
proper labs

Again,
lots of thyroid tests
at least

T3, Total
T4, Total
T3, Free
T4,Free
T3, Reverse
Ultrasensitive TSH
Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies
----------------
Make sure that you are supplementing (practically if you need it or not, most people need it)
selenium
vit-D (8000-10000)iu/day
lugol's solution 2-dropperfull/week
EPA/DHA (but more DHA if you can)
Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin
Wobenzym'N (one week then 3-4 weeks off to save $$)
----------------

...

....

 

[JanSz]

Hi Jansz,

I'll get my bloods done tomorrow and will post the results up when I get them! I've only had one TT test done at Jab 2 and it was 15nmol/L. They couldn't do it on Jab 3 as it was late on a Friday and the bloods wouldn't have gotten to the labs in time. I'll post up a summary of everything when I get the info together....

Cheers,

15nmol/L=410ng/dl

that is a crime against humanity

this is level probably lower than the one that you started with

but where is your

SHBG
Albumin
Ferritin
Hemoglobin
Hematocrit
Estradiol, sensitive
DHT
cortisol, Total
CBG, cortisol binding globuline

and make sure that she does not push
FreeT
on you

.....






...

 

[need4speed]

is there really any reason to test Total t4?

 

[Lammermoor]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies!

Jansz,

When you divide up the nebido dose it really doesn't work out that good does it? I think I'll write to the endo requesting splitting it into four at 2.5 weeks and see what he says. Based on what I've seen so far it will probably be a no though. Same with HCG - I'll try to see if they'll prescribe it but I doubt they'll go for it! I saw it's available on all day chemist but I don't have a prescription/script. Unless of course they are flexible in some way!

Anyway re Nebido - I found an interesting pharmacokinetic study of TU in tea seed oil from China. Apparently the TU in castor oil has a longer half life of 33.9 +/- 4.9 days but you can get the idea. Big rise to aroun 55 nmol/L at the start and pretty much 10-15 nmol/L from week 4 onwards....here's the link:

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/19/6/761


Regarding the blood tests - I think you have to think yourself lucky to even get a Total T test here on the NHS. I'd pretty much have to go private to get this level of testing (which I do have the option of but I'd probably have to pay).

My thyroid does give me concern - my TSH was 1.0 and my Free T4 was 14 pmol/L (range 12-22) so the T4 was scraping the bottom. Everything I've read indicates that this should be in the top one third of the range (i.e above 18.67). My am basal temperatures are never above 36.2 degrees C (97.1 degrees F) so it's a pretty good indicator of something not correct.

Re the supplements - I think I'll definitely start on Vit D and keep up the Zinc and Magnesium. My fish oild has run out so I better get some of that in soon!

Anyway - I'm off to write to the Endo and see what he says. I don't think he can argue with the Nebido being suitable as it places me for most of the duration at a level where I was getting problems!

Cheers,

 

[JanSz]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies!

Jansz,

When you divide up the nebido dose it really doesn't work out that good does it? I think I'll write to the endo requesting splitting it into four at 2.5 weeks and see what he says. Based on what I've seen so far it will probably be a no though. Same with HCG - I'll try to see if they'll prescribe it but I doubt they'll go for it! I saw it's available on all day chemist but I don't have a prescription/script. Unless of course they are flexible in some way!

Anyway re Nebido - I found an interesting pharmacokinetic study of TU in tea seed oil from China. Apparently the TU in castor oil has a longer half life of 33.9 +/- 4.9 days but you can get the idea. Big rise to aroun 55 nmol/L at the start and pretty much 10-15 nmol/L from week 4 onwards....here's the link:

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/19/6/761


Regarding the blood tests - I think you have to think yourself lucky to even get a Total T test here on the NHS. I'd pretty much have to go private to get this level of testing (which I do have the option of but I'd probably have to pay).

My thyroid does give me concern - my TSH was 1.0 and my Free T4 was 14 pmol/L (range 12-22) so the T4 was scraping the bottom. Everything I've read indicates that this should be in the top one third of the range (i.e above 18.67). My am basal temperatures are never above 36.2 degrees C (97.1 degrees F) so it's a pretty good indicator of something not correct.

Re the supplements - I think I'll definitely start on Vit D and keep up the Zinc and Magnesium. My fish oild has run out so I better get some of that in soon!

Anyway - I'm off to write to the Endo and see what he says. I don't think he can argue with the Nebido being suitable as it places me for most of the duration at a level where I was getting problems!

Cheers,

What is your SHBG ????
we are flying blind without tests.
yes, make an effor to split Nebido doses.
Look thru our earlier posts, there is a chart of testosterone levels vs time.
Basically same as in the study you posted, but it is recent study.
After 2 and specially 3 weeks Nebido is gone.
Need to divide dose.
HCG just $$ no script.

...

 

[Lammermoor]

What is your SHBG ????
we are flying blind without tests.
yes, make an effor to split Nebido doses.
Look thru our earlier posts, there is a chart of testosterone levels vs time.
Basically same as in the study you posted, but it is recent study.
After 2 and specially 3 weeks Nebido is gone.
Need to divide dose.
HCG just $$ no script.

...

Thanks Jansz,

I do need more detailed tests - hopefully I'll get some soon.

In the meantime I've decided I won't do the next Nebido jab. There's still a lot of stuff troubling me such as thyroid/adrenal symptoms and low LH/FSH. I think it will be better in the long run if I try to get to the underlying cause just now rather than treat the symptoms. My endo agrees. Apparently, I'll have an appt in eight weeks once the Nebido's worn off and see what else to look at then. I see the doc tomorrow - I'll try to get him to run full thyroid tests. I also have a temp chart of my basal temps....they average 36.1 unless I have beer (maybe allergic to something it that) or have a fever. Endo said he's never concerned about body temp unless it's 34 degrees!!! Is that not hypothermic?

I'm not looking forward to my T levels dipping but hopefully they'll rebound quickly as I've only had three months of T. The endo did not volunteer any clomid when I pointedly asked if there's anything that would help restart production!

In the meantime I'm off my steroid inhalers (not pleasant - sore kidneys etc.) and will increase my Vit D and Fish Oil. Probably add some coconut oil in too to make sure I'm getting enough good fats.

Hope everyone's doing OK!

Cheers,

 

[JanSz]

Thanks Jansz,

I do need more detailed tests - hopefully I'll get some soon.

In the meantime I've decided I won't do the next Nebido jab. There's still a lot of stuff troubling me such as thyroid/adrenal symptoms and low LH/FSH. I think it will be better in the long run if I try to get to the underlying cause just now rather than treat the symptoms. My endo agrees. Apparently, I'll have an appt in eight weeks once the Nebido's worn off and see what else to look at then. I see the doc tomorrow - I'll try to get him to run full thyroid tests. I also have a temp chart of my basal temps....they average 36.1 unless I have beer (maybe allergic to something it that) or have a fever. Endo said he's never concerned about body temp unless it's 34 degrees!!! Is that not hypothermic?

I'm not looking forward to my T levels dipping but hopefully they'll rebound quickly as I've only had three months of T. The endo did not volunteer any clomid when I pointedly asked if there's anything that would help restart production!

In the meantime I'm off my steroid inhalers (not pleasant - sore kidneys etc.) and will increase my Vit D and Fish Oil. Probably add some coconut oil in too to make sure I'm getting enough good fats.

Hope everyone's doing OK!

Cheers,

I doubt that you will ever be able to have enough testosterone produced naturally. Stopping testosterone is a bad move.

Your 36.1C indicates to me high probability of low Total-T3 and high rT3, thyroid hormones.

Knowing this is not going help you much unless you find doctor who is able to recognize your predicament.

Usually people find another few shortcomings.
I do not think that you will find good doctor in the whole UK (by design of your health system not because the doctors are really bad).

Best I can think of is a visit to see Dr Thierry Herthoghe
or one of his associates.



.........

 

[Lammermoor]

I doubt that you will ever be able to have enough testosterone produced naturally. Stopping testosterone is a bad move.

Your 36.1C indicates to me high probability of low Total-T3 and high rT3, thyroid hormones.

Knowing this is not going help you much unless you find doctor who is able to recognize your predicament.

Usually people find another few shortcomings.
I do not think that you will find good doctor in the whole UK (by design of your health system not because the doctors are really bad).

Best I can think of is a visit to see Dr Thierry Herthoghe
or one of his associates.

.........

You may well be right but I really think it's worth a go just now before I get entrenched into a long term treatment. See what happens over the next couple of months I guess - probably be on here complaining!

I also just had a really fruitful chat with my GP and he's agreed to do a full suite of Thyroid tests. I don't think they do RT3 here but apparently it's not very accurate in most labs anyway (according to an article on realthryoidhelp)...the results will be very interesting!

 

[JanSz]

You may well be right but I really think it's worth a go just now before I get entrenched into a long term treatment. See what happens over the next couple of months I guess - probably be on here complaining!

I also just had a really fruitful chat with my GP and he's agreed to do a full suite of Thyroid tests. I don't think they do RT3 here but apparently it's not very accurate in most labs anyway (according to an article on realthryoidhelp)...the results will be very interesting!

About thyroid tests.
Make real sure that you have TotalT3
Actually you will want to have rT3 in lower half of a range,
but
there is another condition, you want to have TotalT3 in upper 1/3 range.
Those conditions work in unisom, if you satisfy one the other will fall in good place.
But what you will usually find out is that, if you start supplementing with thyroid hormones (the conventional way), is that you are not able to get there.

Usually doctors (bunch #1) will give you Synthroid-T4

The little more enlightened doctors (bunch #2), will give you either ArmourThyroid or other Natural derived thyroid hormone supplement (that contains T4), or they will give yoy a combination of synthetic (T4+T3) that is eqivalent to natural product.

The second way is much better than the first, but (usually not always), you are able to get where you need to be, only by using
Cytomel-T3 or equivalent.

With this bunch (#3) of doctors there also is a problem.
Many will give you either:
compounded T3
slow release T3
you do not want ether of them.
You want only Cytomel-T3 or equivalent.

The usual dose is (50-75)mcg/day usually once/day, no more than divided into 2 doses.

There is more fine tunning after 75mcg/day is reached.
For that you would need really really know what you are doing.
But I am not sure if it is worth the effort.

Whatever you do,keep copies of your tests results.
Keep them for life.
When changing doctors, you will (often) need to prove that you are not able to make your natural testosterone (legal bs).
It is really no fun to go down on testosterone when you have good levels at one time.

Depression, bad depression, more depression, then other bad side effects.
.
.

 

[kesam]

Been on the 2 week jabs for a while now and I'm going to have to come off it. My moods are up and down like a whores draws. E2 (without testing) just seems all over the place ie oily skin lack of libido for a few days then alls fine then back again. I have blood tests next week then I'm off to see doc to see if I can get onto 100 - 150 test weekly. This is crazy at the moment. I am in a lot better physical condition and my diabetes is requireing less insulin but I have to get away from the mood swings.
I will update after test results.

 

[JanSz]

Been on the 2 week jabs for a while now and I'm going to have to come off it. My moods are up and down like a whores draws. E2 (without testing) just seems all over the place ie oily skin lack of libido for a few days then alls fine then back again. I have blood tests next week then I'm off to see doc to see if I can get onto 100 - 150 test weekly. This is crazy at the moment. I am in a lot better physical condition and my diabetes is requireing less insulin but I have to get away from the mood swings.
I will update after test results.

Stopping Testosterone is a very bad idea.
It would be better if you could prevent that.

Eventually you want to use

EOD EveryOtherDay schedule
(T + HCG) shots on one day next day free of shots.

Assuming Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate 200mg/mL

HCG-shot=250iu
T-shot=??

Start with T-shot whatever your doc want.
Lets say
T-shot=40mg=20units=0.2cc=140mg/week

For either injections use:
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b

After 2 months retest, these tests:

Hemoglobin
Hematocrit
Prolactin
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
Androstenedione
Estradiol, sensitive
Estrogens, Fractionated
Total Testosterone
SHBG
Albumin
Dihydrotestosterone


To figure out any required adjustment:redeemerwhore: to your testosterone dose, use
Total Testosterone
SHBG

and chart, here:

http://www.andropause.org.uk/nomo_tas.pdf

using that chart you want

FreeT(300-350)

----------------------------------------------------------

Make sure that you remove from your diet all high GI carbohydrates.
Do not eat food that was prepared with temperature higher than 250F.
Best use boiling and steam when preparing food.

Use enzymes, best WobenzymeN

When buying, get the container with 800 tablets (save $$).
........

,

 

[kesam]

Unfortunately those tests arent avail inUK
I will not just come off Test but will be asking the Doc change me off Nebido onto a weekly.
If I dont get around 125mg a week I will cetainly self administer the additional with HCG to the protocol you describe.

Oh to get back to original euphoria after week 2 on nebido

 

[JanSz]

Unfortunately those tests arent avail inUK
I will not just come off Test but will be asking the Doc change me off Nebido onto a weekly.
If I dont get around 125mg a week I will cetainly self administer the additional with HCG to the protocol you describe.

Oh to get back to original euphoria after week 2 on nebido

If you are able to pay from your own wallet,
many, most of testing that you need you can get here, without prescription.

http://www.gdx.uk.net/index.php

So you are able to get just anything that you may need,
but you would need to study the subject and be familiar with it, because you will be self treating.

That is an excellent option, just study and as questions,
and
figure out which answers you are getting are good
and which are worthless.

..
..........

 

[Lammermoor]

Been on the 2 week jabs for a while now and I'm going to have to come off it. My moods are up and down like a whores draws. E2 (without testing) just seems all over the place ie oily skin lack of libido for a few days then alls fine then back again. I have blood tests next week then I'm off to see doc to see if I can get onto 100 - 150 test weekly. This is crazy at the moment. I am in a lot better physical condition and my diabetes is requireing less insulin but I have to get away from the mood swings.
I will update after test results.

I'm now 14 weeks after my last jab and I strangely feel perfectly OK. I think my gonads have kicked back as they feel a bit plumper again. My libido etc are all fine. I have been taking selenium, copper, zinc and iodine so they might have hepled a bit

Apparently my thyroid tests all came in "normal" but I've not seen the actual figures yet. Hopefully see them soon. My temps are still 36.1 deg centigrade unless I drink alcohol the day before and it goes up to around 36.6.

I have an endo appt in the second week of January to look at further investigations (whatever they may be).

Good luck with getting the Nebido protocol sorted. I think I could live on the 12 week based dose but it's certainly not optimal!

 

[JanSz]

I'm now 14 weeks after my last jab and I strangely feel perfectly OK. I think my gonads have kicked back as they feel a bit plumper again. My libido etc are all fine. I have been taking selenium, copper, zinc and iodine so they might have hepled a bit

Apparently my thyroid tests all came in "normal" but I've not seen the actual figures yet. Hopefully see them soon. My temps are still 36.1 deg centigrade unless I drink alcohol the day before and it goes up to around 36.6.

I have an endo appt in the second week of January to look at further investigations (whatever they may be).

Good luck with getting the Nebido protocol sorted. I think I could live on the 12 week based dose but it's certainly not optimal!

36.6C is normal
36.1 is low

.............

 

[Lammermoor]

36.6C is normal
36.1 is low

.............

It is indeed!

I just got back some results.

Just before nebido jab #2 at 6 weeks my my T was 15.5nmol/L (10-30) and it was 10.9nmol/L (10-30) at 12 weeks after jab #3.

So - Nebido looks pretty rubbish really!

My latest thyroid results are:

TSH - 0.87mU/L (0.2-4.5)
Free T4 - 13pmol/L (9-21)
Free T3 - 1.4nmol/L (0.9-2.4)

Anti Thyroid Peroxidase 14.7 U/ml (0-50)

Previous ones are

TSH - 0.63mU/L (0.2-4.5)
Free T4 - 12pmol/L (9-21)

I think my thyroid's scraping the lower reaches of the barrell! Unfortunately no Reverse T3...

 

[JanSz]

It is indeed!

I just got back some results.

Just before nebido jab #2 at 6 weeks my my T was 15.5nmol/L (10-30) and it was 10.9nmol/L (10-30) at 12 weeks after jab #3.

So - Nebido looks pretty rubbish really!

My latest thyroid results are:

TSH - 0.87mU/L (0.2-4.5)
Free T4 - 13pmol/L (9-21)
Free T3 - 1.4nmol/L (0.9-2.4)

Anti Thyroid Peroxidase 14.7 U/ml (0-50)

Previous ones are

TSH - 0.63mU/L (0.2-4.5)
Free T4 - 12pmol/L (9-21)

I think my thyroid's scraping the lower reaches of the barrell! Unfortunately no Reverse T3...

Tell you what,
flying blind,

I see need to support
adrenals
thyroid
testosterone
estradiol
DHT


If you want I can give you my best guess of what to take and how often.

may work, may not, should be better then where you are now (but no guarantiie).

Happy New Year.


..
Nebido is not rubbish.
The way you are using it is rubbish.

But if you can get enanthate or cypionate will you promise to inject it EOD?

Nebido you are injecting not often enough.
Most likely you will try to inject cyp or enanthate also not often enough.

Have you ever figured your SHBG?
E2
DHT

.............

 

[Lammermoor]

Tell you what,
flying blind,

I see need to support
adrenals
thyroid
testosterone
estradiol
DHT


If you want I can give you my best guess of what to take and how often.

may work, may not, should be better then where you are now (but no guarantiie).

Happy New Year.


..
Nebido is not rubbish.
The way you are using it is rubbish.

But if you can get enanthate or cypionate will you promise to inject it EOD?

Nebido you are injecting not often enough.
Most likely you will try to inject cyp or enanthate also not often enough.

Have you ever figured your SHBG?
E2
DHT

.............

Hi Jansz,

Happy New Year to you as well. Hope you had a great Christmas!

Sorry - I agree - my Nebido protocol was rubbish - a more frequent pattern would probably work well. However, with the long half life I think it would take a while to get it right though.

I definitely think you're right with the adrenal and thyroid. I think the next step is a saliva cortisol test to see where I am with that.

Re SHBG, I have been tested twice. The first on was 28 nmol/L (6-45) and the second was 26 (same units/ranges). For E2- only tested once and it was 59 pmol/L (0-160). God knows what it got to during teh Nebido treatment - I did have tender breasts though. Apparently this is OK as the E2 goes up directly in line with the T levels so the T:E2 ratio stays constant.

I have an endo appt next week - I'll see what they have to say. I reckon it will be rubbish though so I'm going to get some dessicated thyroid (probably thyroid-s) and try to get my temps up. I'll tell me GP this and when/if I get my basal temps up to 36.8 I'll get him to test my Testosterone again. See what happens after that!

Cheers,

 

[JanSz]

Hi Jansz,

Happy New Year to you as well. Hope you had a great Christmas!

Sorry - I agree - my Nebido protocol was rubbish - a more frequent pattern would probably work well. However, with the long half life I think it would take a while to get it right though.

I definitely think you're right with the adrenal and thyroid. I think the next step is a saliva cortisol test to see where I am with that.

Re SHBG, I have been tested twice. The first on was 28 nmol/L (6-45) and the second was 26 (same units/ranges). For E2- only tested once and it was 59 pmol/L (0-160). God knows what it got to during teh Nebido treatment - I did have tender breasts though. Apparently this is OK as the E2 goes up directly in line with the T levels so the T:E2 ratio stays constant.

I have an endo appt next week - I'll see what they have to say. I reckon it will be rubbish though so I'm going to get some dessicated thyroid (probably thyroid-s) and try to get my temps up. I'll tell me GP this and when/if I get my basal temps up to 36.8 I'll get him to test my Testosterone again. See what happens after that!

Cheers,

Ok SHBG~27

If you want, you can do this:

do not use anything that contains T4, use only T3

Cortef=HC=Hydrocortisone

Cortef-30mg/day=10mg/wakeup +10mg/4hrs latter + 5mg/4hrs latter + 5mg/4hrs latter

Cytomel-T3 comes in 25mcg tabs
Cynomel-T3 comes in 20mcg tabs (I was buying it from UK)

Within 3 weeks, ramp up to 75mcg/day or 80 mcg/day
Spread the T3 tablets every few hours, latter you may want to take them 1-2/day
they say that T3 have a short half life, but that may be overrated, some guys can take it once/day
just monitor temperature

After you are on Cortef and T3 for 3 months, see if you actually need that Cortef.
Starting with Cortef is for your protection.
I have no idea how strong are your adrenals, so Cortef is for your protection, you may not need it.

But if you need Cortef, after a while you will be sick being forced to count hours and not miss the dose.
At that time you may want try to switch to Medrol.

6mg-Medrol=30mg-Cortef

Have to say it here:
do not use prednisone or prednisolone they are dangerous to some people.
You do not want to find if you are in that group.


use HCG
HCG-shot=250iu
do this size shot EOD (EveryOtherDay)

if you are able get testosterone
use weekly dose 150-175mg/week

If you will be using Nebido, make sure that you divide ampoule as previously described and do shots at intervals 10-15 days in such a way that you achieve dose 150-175mg/week

If you will be using testosterone Cypionate or enanthate, do shots on the same day as HCG shots (EOD), and use size of the shot such that you achieve dose 150-175mg/week

Make sure that you do not do any testing for at least six months.
except
E2 Estrodial

Frequent testing may confuse you.

You have to keep your E2(15-30)pg/mL
plus you do not want itchy nipples.

You actually want to keep E2 as high as possible, (without nipple/breast problems.)

High E2 is friendly to Growth Hormone. GH is your friend.

-----

If you are able to do testing other areas, let me know, that may help.

...

Make sure that you are taking supplements, something similar to this:

4 pills,,,Now Foods, DHA-500, 500 DHA / 250 EPA
1/day Borage Oil 1050mg, 240mg GLA, 120 Softgels, NOW Foods
xxxxx Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg
per label Mucos Wobenzym'N
10tabs/day UNI-LIVER
3grams vit C
10000iu/day---Biotic Research Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, 1drop=2000iu Vit D
2/day from lef.org 00559 GAMMA E TOCOPHEROL/TOCOTRIENOL
1/day from lef.org Super Selenium Complex, 200 mcg 100 capsules
2 droppeful/day lugol's solution
1000mg/day Niacin (take with aspirin)
you may need some B vitamins and A

-----------------------------