Mk677 alongside PCT?

[S1991]

Hi everyone!

So I am 5 weeks into a 12 week Test E/Deca cycle and just had a theory that upon stopping the Test E/Deca I could start Mk677 to keep up the hunger and overall feeling of well being, and then run it alongside PCT of clomid and nolva which I plan to take two weeks after ceasing the Test E/Deca!

Having used MK before I can't help but feel it could help hold onto the gains from the cycle and may also help kick start my natty production of LH hormone?

Like I said this is just a theory from past experience, and just wanted to know if anybody has actually incorporated MK into their PCT?

Look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

 

[ryclegman]

Running test-e now along with trenavar and EPI. Trenavar is finished today and today ill be starting up Mast-P for the remainder of my cycle. Pretty sure the EPI is bunk as i got it from a popular auction site haha. But My plan is to have MK through PCT. Along with Torem, nolva, and annafuse. So im interested in how your MK goes on PCT as well

 

[StanleyG]

I see no issue with it. Im not sure how significant its effects will be but it surely wont hurt anything. I def think it will help psychologically but as far as gains retention Im not sure. Let us know how it goes!

 

[ryclegman]

Well it increases IGF correct? My guess is it should help quite a bit with holding gains

 

[StanleyG]

Well it increases IGF correct? My guess is it should help quite a bit with holding gains

It depends on how significant that increase is. I mean you can double your t levels using a serm and it wont change your body composition at all so you have to try it and see. Its worth trying but you cant assume an increase in igf automatically results in better ains retention. It has to be clinically significant to that point. I think its worth a shot and understand the reasoning but as I said, an increase in IGF needs to be substantial enough to do what you are hoping- thats all.

 

[Hastur]

Hi everyone!

So I am 5 weeks into a 12 week Test E/Deca cycle and just had a theory that upon stopping the Test E/Deca I could start Mk677 to keep up the hunger and overall feeling of well being, and then run it alongside PCT of clomid and nolva which I plan to take two weeks after ceasing the Test E/Deca!

Having used MK before I can't help but feel it could help hold onto the gains from the cycle and may also help kick start my natty production of LH hormone?

Like I said this is just a theory from past experience, and just wanted to know if anybody has actually incorporated MK into their PCT?

Look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

It depends on how significant that increase is. I mean you can double your t levels using a serm and it wont change your body composition at all so you have to try it and see. Its worth trying but you cant assume an increase in igf automatically results in better ains retention. It has to be clinically significant to that point. I think its worth a shot and understand the reasoning but as I said, an increase in IGF needs to be substantial enough to do what you are hoping- thats all.

It will definitely help with maintaining gains in PCT. The studies have shown, as well as anecdotal reports in logs, that GH and IGF-1 are elevating to a statistically significant degree. There is a considerable amount of information available regarding MK-677. To quote one study "IGF-1 levels remain elevated in humans with a single oral dose for up to 24 hours." I plan on using MK-677 in my PCT specifically for this purpose.

 

[StanleyG]

It will definitely help with maintaining gains in PCT. The studies have shown, as well as anecdotal reports in logs, that GH and IGF-1 are elevating to a statistically significant degree. There is a considerable amount of information available regarding MK-677. To quote one study "IGF-1 levels remain elevated in humans with a single oral dose for up to 24 hours." I plan on using MK-677 in my PCT specifically for this purpose.

Statistically significant and anabolic or anti catabolic are very different things. As I pointed out you can double levels of our most anabolic hormones and it does absolutely noting for body composition.
Do I think its worth trying- yes. Do I think its prudent for people to assume or say what you are this early in the game - no freaking way. Your entitled to your opinion, Ill base mine on facts and data on humans. Hard data- not oh it does this so it should do that. Thinking like that has been proven time and time again to be totally false.
JMO
Also if I was going to run a GHRP in pct id also run a GHRH with it like mod grf to maximize the desired effects. Again , JMO....

 

[Hastur]

Statistically significant and anabolic or anti catabolic are very different things. As I pointed out you can double levels of our most anabolic hormones and it does absolutely noting for body composition.
Do I think its worth trying- yes. Do I think its prudent for people to assume or say what you are this early in the game - no freaking way. Your entitled to your opinion, Ill base mine on facts and data on humans. Hard data- not oh it does this so it should do that. Thinking like that has been proven time and time again to be totally false.
JMO
Also if I was going to run a GHRP in pct id also run a GHRH with it like mod grf to maximize the desired effects. Again , JMO....

The increase is both statistically significant and results in anabolic/anti-catabolic effects. I understand what you are trying to convey with your example regarding SERMS doubling Testosterone and having no effect on body composition, I'd love to see the studies on that by the way. But Testosterone and Growth Hormone/IGF-1 are two very different things as well. They may be anabolic, but the way in which they exert their anabolic effects are not the same. You cannot compare a SERM to a Growth Hormone Secretagogue. I really wouldn't say anything is being said 'this early in the game'. MK-677 has been around for quite sometime, as I stated, the data is out there. I agree, I am entitled to me opinion, and you are entitled to yours. Since you say you'll base your opinion on facts and data on humans, 'hard data', you seem to wish to imply that I do not. I was conveying facts taken from data on humans, which I would consider hard data. I am more than interested in seeing the facts/data on humans/hard data you form your opinion on that is counter to mine.

-It has been demonstrated to increase the release of, and produces sustained increases in plasma levels of several hormones including GH and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), but without affecting cortisol levels in normal young men.
(Copinschi G, Van Onderbergen A, L'Hermite-Balériaux M, Mendel CM, Caufriez A, Leproult R, Bolognese JA, De Smet M, Thorner MO, Van Cauter E. Effects of a 7-day treatment with a novel, orally active, growth hormone (GH) secretagogue, MK-677, on 24-hour GH profiles, insulin-like growth factor I, and adrenocortical function in normal young men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1996 Aug;81(8):2776-82. PMID 8768828)

-Human studies have shown it to increase both muscle mass and bone mineral density.
(Murphy MG, Bach MA, Plotkin D, Bolognese J, Ng J, Krupa D, Cerchio K, Gertz BJ. Oral administration of the growth hormone secretagogue MK-677 increases markers of bone turnover in healthy and functionally impaired elderly adults. The MK-677 Study Group. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research. 1999 Jul;14(7):1182-8. PMID 10404019)
(Murphy MG, Weiss S, McClung M, Schnitzer T, Cerchio K, Connor J, Krupa D, Gertz BJ; MK-677/Alendronate Study Group. Effect of alendronate and MK-677 (a growth hormone secretagogue), individually and in combination, on markers of bone turnover and bone mineral density in postmenopausal osteoporotic women. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 2001 Mar;86(3):1116–25. PMID 11238495)

-It increases growth hormone, fat-free mass (muscle and bone), and raises energy expenditure (resulting in fat loss).
(Svensson J, Lönn L, Jansson JO, Murphy G, Wyss D, Krupa D, Cerchio K, Polvino W, Gertz B, Boseaus I, Sjöström L, Bengtsson BA. Two-month treatment of obese subjects with the oral growth hormone (GH) secretagogue MK-677 increases GH secretion, fat-free mass, and energy expenditure. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 1998 Feb;83(2):362-9. PMID 9467542)

-IGF-1 levels remain elevated in humans with a single oral dose for up to 24 hours.
(Smith, Roy G.; Ploeg, Lex H. T. Van der; Howard, Andrew D.; Feighner, Scott D.; Cheng, Kang; Hickey, Gerard J.; Wyvratt, Matthew J.; Fisher, Mike H.; Nargund, Ravi P.; Patchett, Arthur A. (1997). "Peptidomimetic Regulation of Growth Hormone Secretion". Endocrine Reviews (The Endocrine Society) 18 (5): 621–645. doi:10.1210/edrv.18.5.0316. Retrieved 2015-06-13.)

 

[StanleyG]

It will definitely help with maintaining gains in PCT.

You can post all that pretty stuff you like but the fact remains the statement I just quoted you as saying, shouldnt be said.
In no way AT ALL can you say mk677 will definitely help retain gains, you can speculate all you want, but you you should really stop stating it like its a fact. It is far from a fact.
I hope it does do that but until many try it in their pct and compare to previous pcts we have no idea of this. Does the data look promising and make it worth a try- yes, I already said that, however stop stating things like they are a fact when all they are is speculation or an educated guess. Christ you havent even done it yourself and you saying oh it will definitely do that. Thats irresponsible.
Look my main point is this. Do we know it increases HGH and IGF- yes. Do we know it does this to a clinically significant degree in a pct scenario- no way. Oh and I am talking clinically significant, which means real world, like what really matters. Statistically significant means absolutely nothing. It means there is a numerical difference. Big deal, who cares.
I hope many try it in their pcts and report back, but until more do and can say with certainty they retained more mass than they did without it I dont think its correct or responsible to make statements like Oh it definitely will do that. Then again I have nothing to gain like you do as you rep for a company that sells it. Hey btw why do you guys refer to it as a sarm when it doesnt act on the androgen receptor at all?

 

[Hastur]

You can post all that pretty stuff you like but the fact remains the statement I just quoted you as saying, shouldnt be said.
In no way AT ALL can you say mk677 will definitely help retain gains, you can speculate all you want, but you you should really stop stating it like its a fact. It is far from a fact.
I hope it does do that but until many try it in their pct and compare to previous pcts we have no idea of this. Does the data look promising and make it worth a try- yes, I already said that, however stop stating things like they are a fact when all they are is speculation or an educated guess. Christ you havent even done it yourself and you saying oh it will definitely do that. Thats irresponsible.
Look my main point is this. Do we know it increases HGH and IGF- yes. Do we know it does this to a clinically significant degree in a pct scenario- no way. Oh and I am talking clinically significant, which means real world, like what really matters. Statistically significant means absolutely nothing. It means there is a numerical difference. Big deal, who cares.
I hope many try it in their pcts and report back, but until more do and can say with certainty they retained more mass than they did without it I dont think its correct or responsible to make statements like Oh it definitely will do that. Then again I have nothing to gain like you do as you rep for a company that sells it. Hey btw why do you guys refer to it as a sarm when it doesnt act on the androgen receptor at all?

I was not posting 'pretty stuff', but rather giving you studies backing the science behind my statements. Which is what I was under the impression you were seeking when you stated "your entitled to your opinion, Ill base mine on facts and data on humans. Hard data". The quote of which you've isolated from my much larger statements is like many other posts on this board by people giving advice no different than mine. However you see people advising usage and dosages of various compounds and substances without providing any studies to back up their advice more often than not, which is something that I am not doing here.

I was not stating everything as fact, I believe it is clear how to discern an individuals personal opinion from a claimed fact. I openly encourage everyone who reads this to do their own research, and only do what they feel comfortable with. I am in no way, shape or form encouraging people to do anything that I myself would not. However what I state is not 'speculation' or an 'educated guess'. I posted studies backing my claims, and I could post even more doing so. There are are countless logs also supporting my claims, and the list of those would be longer yet.

And when you state that you are talking clinically significant, those were clinical studies I posted. I'm not sure you got the chance to read them, but clinical means "of or relating to the observation and treatment of actual patients rather than theoretical or laboratory studies." And those studies show that statistically significant effects seen in a clinical setting are in fact clinically significant. It does not just mean there is a 'big numerical difference', as you state, the 'big deal' is that it elicits the intended effects, as the studies show.

When you say you hope many people try it for PCT, they have, this compound has been around for years, there are numerous logs out there. One need only look to find them. You will find many anecdotal reports on this very forum. I'm sorry that my comments and statements seem to have offended you, as you believe what I've said is not correct and not responsible. You have my apology, I am not here to offend people nor make enemies, I am here to converse, share ideas, and give advice as freely as it is given by others.

Then again I have nothing to gain like you do as you rep for a company that sells it.

I have lucked out. I will be testing out mk677 with blood work for a very well known established rc company.

You seem to have an issue with me being a rep, or perhaps you have an issue with the company of which I represent. Well, while I did not come here to make a sale or push a product but rather talk about a compound it is true the company I represent has a product containing the substance of which this thread is regarding. But I have not attempted to push it on anyone.

As for your questions about terming compounds incorrectly. You are perhaps lumping myself together with people who run and/or are affiliated with 'Research Chemical' companies online, as they sometimes inappropriately describe several substances as SARMs such as GW501516 (Cardarine) and MK-677 (Ibutamoren). I assure you, I have never called them SARMs, I will never call them SARMs, the company which I represet does not call them SARMs, and usage of such terminology is undeniably incorrect.

You have stated your opinion, sir. And I have stated mine. Unless you think your point, or mine, has not been made clearly, perhaps we should allow others to take what they will from this exchange of opinions and information and formulate their own conclusion as to what the best action is for them. But if you wish to discuss things further, I am more than happy to continue the conversation, and willing to answer any and all questions you may have.

 

[jbryand101b]

You can post all that pretty stuff you like but the fact remains the statement I just quoted you as saying, shouldnt be said.
In no way AT ALL can you say mk677 will definitely help retain gains, you can speculate all you want, but you you should really stop stating it like its a fact. It is far from a fact.
I hope it does do that but until many try it in their pct and compare to previous pcts we have no idea of this. Does the data look promising and make it worth a try- yes, I already said that, however stop stating things like they are a fact when all they are is speculation or an educated guess. Christ you havent even done it yourself and you saying oh it will definitely do that. Thats irresponsible.
Look my main point is this. Do we know it increases HGH and IGF- yes. Do we know it does this to a clinically significant degree in a pct scenario- no way. Oh and I am talking clinically significant, which means real world, like what really matters. Statistically significant means absolutely nothing. It means there is a numerical difference. Big deal, who cares.
I hope many try it in their pcts and report back, but until more do and can say with certainty they retained more mass than they did without it I dont think its correct or responsible to make statements like Oh it definitely will do that. Then again I have nothing to gain like you do as you rep for a company that sells it. Hey btw why do you guys refer to it as a sarm when it doesnt act on the androgen receptor at all?

Well, you wanted studies with factual data to base an opinion on, he gave it to you.
You have provided zero data based evidence to support anything you said.

It just looks as if your knit picking an grabbing onto anything you can to disagree bro. Only thing left it to start using grammar mistakes as a reason to disagree

 

[StanleyG]

Yeah the Olympus parade!!
I know more about mk and studies done on it than you 2 combined x3 I am sure.
The bottom line was, and still is, that no way can you state that it will for certain help you to retain gains in pcyt. Do I think its worth exploring it for that purpose? Damn straight I do, but no way would I irresponsibly tell someone it will have that effect for sure. That requires far too much speculation. The OP needs to try it and judge for himself. Many people need to use it in that scenario and report that it assists in gains retention before one can responsibly make that claim.
My honest opinion on the outcome is this, it will probably not assist in gains retention to the point that it would justify the cost of the compound. You would prob be better served using it DURING your cycle to get the synergistic effects of the gh/igf/aas together which might actually increase your on cycle gains, thus giving you more muscle mass retained post pct simply because it assisted in building more muscle during the cycle. Now that is pure speculation on my part. Until I try it for myself I cannot say otherwise. That obviously didn't stop Hastur from saying otherwise but hey he has a motive to push this product. I do not. This affords me the ability to be strictly objective.
My point is dont go around stating things as if they are a fact when they are purely speculation. You should refrain from doing this even if you are a rep. Especially if you are a rep in fact. It builds what is known as integrity.

 

[yates84]

Yeah the Olympus parade!!
I know more about mk and studies done on it than you 2 combined x3 I am sure.
The bottom line was, and still is, that no way can you state that it will for certain help you to retain gains in pcyt. Do I think its worth exploring it for that purpose? Damn straight I do, but no way would I irresponsibly tell someone it will have that effect for sure. That requires far too much speculation. The OP needs to try it and judge for himself. Many people need to use it in that scenario and report that it assists in gains retention before one can responsibly make that claim.
My honest opinion on the outcome is this, it will probably not assist in gains retention to the point that it would justify the cost of the compound. You would prob be better served using it DURING your cycle to get the synergistic effects of the gh/igf/aas together which might actually increase your on cycle gains, thus giving you more muscle mass retained post pct simply because it assisted in building more muscle during the cycle. Now that is pure speculation on my part. Until I try it for myself I cannot say otherwise. That obviously didn't stop Hastur from saying otherwise but hey he has a motive to push this product. I do not. This affords me the ability to be strictly objective.
My point is dont go around stating things as if they are a fact when they are purely speculation. You should refrain from doing this even if you are a rep. Especially if you are a rep in fact. It builds what is known as integrity.

When did cost come into the equation? That wasn't the question at all. And to boast about being sooooo much smarter than everyone is real classy. Neither of these guys said anything wrong so there is no reason for you to jump on them. You are a smart guy and you put up some quality posts but this isn't one of them, this is you picking a fight

 

[jbryand101b]

Yeah the Olympus parade!!
I know more about mk and studies done on it than you 2 combined x3 I am sure.
The bottom line was, and still is, that no way can you state that it will for certain help you to retain gains in pcyt. Do I think its worth exploring it for that purpose? Damn straight I do, but no way would I irresponsibly tell someone it will have that effect for sure. That requires far too much speculation. The OP needs to try it and judge for himself. Many people need to use it in that scenario and report that it assists in gains retention before one can responsibly make that claim.
My honest opinion on the outcome is this, it will probably not assist in gains retention to the point that it would justify the cost of the compound. You would prob be better served using it DURING your cycle to get the synergistic effects of the gh/igf/aas together which might actually increase your on cycle gains, thus giving you more muscle mass retained post pct simply because it assisted in building more muscle during the cycle. Now that is pure speculation on my part. Until I try it for myself I cannot say otherwise. That obviously didn't stop Hastur from saying otherwise but hey he has a motive to push this product. I do not. This affords me the ability to be strictly objective.
My point is dont go around stating things as if they are a fact when they are purely speculation. You should refrain from doing this even if you are a rep. Especially if you are a rep in fact. It builds what is known as integrity.

Didn't see any links to data based studies so didn't read it, as it's irrelevant

If you don't have them an are just making stuff up, just admit it, it's cool bro, we can work together to find the data to validate your statements.

 

[S1991]

Reading all these replies, I can see both where Stanley G and Hastur are coming from to a certain degree but definitely agree that being a guinea pig in this little experiment could prove beneficial to other people's PCT's in the future!

Initially I was going to run MK alongside the two other compounds however did want to test its uses in a PCT, as when I used MK as a standalone I gained a good 13kg of muscle and a fair bit of water (mostly after 3months of ED use), which I only lost 3kg of upon stopping( I would say mainly water as I leaned out after).

If I could see anything similar to this on my PCT it could potentially be an unbelievably good way to not only maintain size but also further enhance it, whilst using nolva and clomid to kickstart natural test with an elevated GH and IGF-1 in theory seems ideal!

Seriously hope my logic is correct! I was blown away by the power of MK before and was asked by so many people what steroids I was taking as honest to god I put on a good 8-10kg in 2 weeks!!

Keep the discussions going too as it's been a great read to see different peoples opinions!

 

[jbryand101b]

I have no opinion on this as I haven't used it, but your results op interest me

 

[StanleyG]

I apologize if I came off confrontational. In fact I did become confrontational. I just felt like the gun was being jumped so to speak when it came to certain conclusions re gains retention during pct and what this product might do (or what in fact I hope it actually does do!).
I totally see the logic and even the potential, I just dont think you can quite say what some were saying just yet. Its funny even though a product will illicit certain known beneficial effects that doesnt necessarily mean where the rubber meets the road this will translate to results. You can speculate it might, even make a well informed ,educated guess that it might, but until it is actually tried and documented by many I personally dont feel comfortable myself saying "Oh it definitely will". Now thats just me and my stuff. If other are of that opinion you know what they are 100% entitled to believe it and express it. I was "on the wrong side of the bed" all day today. Apologies to those I may have offended.

 

[sanmarino]

Hi everyone!

So I am 5 weeks into a 12 week Test E/Deca cycle and just had a theory that upon stopping the Test E/Deca I could start Mk677 to keep up the hunger and overall feeling of well being, and then run it alongside PCT of clomid and nolva which I plan to take two weeks after ceasing the Test E/Deca!

Having used MK before I can't help but feel it could help hold onto the gains from the cycle and may also help kick start my natty production of LH hormone?

Like I said this is just a theory from past experience, and just wanted to know if anybody has actually incorporated MK into their PCT?

Look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

Hi

Keep in mind that MK-677 will increase insulin resistance. Don't focus on GH and IGF-1 only. There are of course probably the primary point to run MK-677 but MK-677 can - if wrong handled - lead to a worsened body look. You have to pay much more attention on your nutrition. Reduce sodium to reduce possible water retention and watch out from amount and quality of your food. In worst case a lot is going to be stored in fat depot instead in the muscle.

But nevertheless it will help you strongly (only regarding in muscle building).

I never ran MK-677 in PCT, it's much more attractive during cycle.

san