Matthew D or Bobo

[Dwight Schrute]

I've used it before and it worked pretty well but my caloric deficit was pretty large at the time. They seem to work better that way but then you can run inot a host of other problems following that type of diet.

 

[Jag]

adrenalinaddict,

i'm with you in the pre, post nutrition thing. there's so many theories but i think we can all agree that when it comes to the human body sometimes these theories can be thrown out the window.

i'll add that i'm a meso-endo (body type).....i think!!!!! i have no trouble putting on size but have a hard time getting that hard look.
but i'm 6"1 so i can disguise it well.

i tried what i said i was going to do in my opening post & didn't get the results i'd thought.
this week i'm trying a whey only shake 30-60 minutes before my workout with 2000mg of Vit.C which is very good for reducing cortisol.
i'm going to add egg whites to this next week. no fat at all around w/o time.

i found a solid meal doesn't sit good after the w/o so a shake is the better option for me. whey, egg whites, oats & honey tastes really good, sits great in my stomach & keeps me full for at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours later.
i think the oats stop the rapid gastric emptying so the shake digests slightly slower...........i think!!! but like i said it's still very confusing to me!!!

anyway this seems to be working well for me. carbs & fats are kept low for the rest of the day but i have no limit on fibre or protein. all the fats i need come with the meat protein i'm eating so i don't go out of my way to add more.......except for fish oil caps.

every 4 days i eat really high glycemic carbs & small amounts of protein for a whole day. this is something i've also just started & is working great.
on that day i feel bloated & fat but the next day i'm full & strong. i tried a complex day with lousy results.

also getting great results using SwoleV2. i don't rave about supps much but this stuff is great.

Jag

 

[TheUsual]

Don't forget to add the dextrose to those post WO shakes! Why you ask? Wellllll let me tell you:

Dextrose preferentially replaces muscle glycogen whereas other simple sugars preferentially replace liver glycogen. Thus the dextrose is best for shuttling nutrients to your burnt out muscles.

I have studies laying around and I'll add them if anyone wants to double check me but I think this is a pretty well covered subject.

 

[sage]

Don't forget to add the dextrose to those post WO shakes! Why you ask? Wellllll let me tell you:
I have studies laying around and I'll add them if anyone wants to double check me but I think this is a pretty well covered subject.

and a well debated topic between low and high GI carb as well bro.
Sage

 

[TheUsual]

Indeed I did a bit more reading after posting that and stumbled across the "discussion" (if it can be called that, swolecat performed a rather lame defense) between swolecat and Bobo over High GI vs Low GI.

I apologize, I haven't been here long and haven't had much time to search through all the threads; I came over from the Avant Labs forums where I've lurked for around a year. I like it a little better here though due to getting quicker responses to my questions... a more active community or regulars, perhaps?

P.s.-Bobo please don't rip me a new one, I will search for those studies but from what I have seen I doubt it is anything new to you. I will definitely have to research this topic further as I currently consume around 30g dex pre and 30g post.

 

[TheUsual]

Bobo what do you think of this article by Zeppelin (owner of proteincustomizer.com and blackstarlabs.com I believe):

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=5&pageID=66

He believes the best method is to bracket a 50/50 mix of malto and dextrose around one's workout. He posts a plethora of studies... I will go through them later when I have time. If only I could get paid for scouring pubmed all day in search of bodybuilding information... sigh, in a perfect world

 

[Jcc]

Now, to expand further on YHCL and insulin... let's say you ingest some YHCL and then consume a meal with carbs in it, enough to create a moderate insulin spike. Will the Y resume its effects after the insulin spike has 'settled down'? Or is it a done deal after that?

Damn, I think I worded this question terribly. But it's early, and hopefully someone will get what I'm trying to ask.

I'll try again... anybody have some insight on this? Hate to go off topic, but this thread has been all over the place anyways.

 

[Jag]

Don't forget to add the dextrose to those post WO shakes! Why you ask? Wellllll let me tell you:

Dextrose preferentially replaces muscle glycogen whereas other simple sugars preferentially replace liver glycogen. Thus the dextrose is best for shuttling nutrients to your burnt out muscles.

I have studies laying around and I'll add them if anyone wants to double check me but I think this is a pretty well covered subject.

TheUsual,

welcome here.

i devoted a lot of time to experiment with this pre, during & post w/o nutrition buisness just to sort it out once & for all...............for myself.

i was armed with a lot of info including Zeppilins "pre, during, post w/o nutrition" article. my conclusion was that all the dex & malto just made me FAT.

this maybe good for some who just want mass/FAT (or ectomorphs) but my idea of bodybuilding is to look good ALL the time. i actually just dumped the rest of my dex & malto in the bin & stocked up natural honey (i'm fortunate to know someone with bees ) & oats.

the results i'm getting speak for themselves. Bobo was the one who got me thinking about the oats & it worked well.

Jag

 

[TheUsual]

TheUsual,

welcome here.

i devoted a lot of time to experiment with this pre, during & post w/o nutrition buisness just to sort it out once & for all...............for myself.

i was armed with a lot of info including Zeppilins "pre, during, post w/o nutrition" article. my conclusion was that all the dex & malto just made me FAT.

this maybe good for some who just want mass/FAT (or ectomorphs) but my idea of bodybuilding is to look good ALL the time. i actually just dumped the rest of my dex & malto in the bin & stocked up natural honey (i'm fortunate to know someone with bees ) & oats.

the results i'm getting speak for themselves. Bobo was the one who got me thinking about the oats & it worked well.

Jag

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, I definitely want to research it further, and I definitely respect Bobo's opinions from what I've seen of his posts so far. Right now I am bulking so it does not play quite as large of a role, but when I start cutting in a month, I will definitely not want to be using dex if it is unneccessary and hindering my fat loss. Besides, Honey and oats taste better

 

[jjjd]

what do people think of a supp. like muscle milk post-workout (for cutting or bulking).

the CW is that pw shake should be protein and carbs, however MM has protein, relatively low carbs, and a substantial fat portion (albeit mostly "good" fats)

based on the CW i would hesitate to make it my post w/o shake, but any thoughts on this?

 

[TheUsual]

what do people think of a supp. like muscle milk post-workout (for cutting or bulking).

the CW is that pw shake should be protein and carbs, however MM has protein, relatively low carbs, and a substantial fat portion (albeit mostly "good" fats)

based on the CW i would hesitate to make it my post w/o shake, but any thoughts on this?

MM is no good post WO due to the fat content. No fats post WO! This is a fact on which there is no contention I assume

 

[Mike Oxlong]

TheUsual,


this maybe good for some who just want mass/FAT (or ectomorphs) but my idea of bodybuilding is to look good ALL the time. i actually just dumped the rest of my dex & malto in the bin & stocked up natural honey (i'm fortunate to know someone with bees ) & oats.

the results i'm getting speak for themselves. Bobo was the one who got me thinking about the oats & it worked well.

Jag

JAG, what kind of oats are you using?? Cause I know those 'instant oats' are a pretty high GI

 

[Pfunk47]

JAG, what kind of oats are you using?? Cause I know those 'instant oats' are a pretty high GI

Only instant "packs" of oats are High GI - IE. Maple brown sugar,mmm, peaches and cream etc. The instant plain oatmeal (you know the one where you add 1 cup of water for 1 cup of oats and cook 1 min in micorwave are low GI)

 

[Mike Oxlong]

From what I've read in "The Zone" which, by the way has excellent discussions on how food affects hormones, says that those instant oats, plain or not, are still high GI. The ones that are still in big thick bunches and take 10-30 minutes to cook are the lower GI oats. Coincidentally, the longer it takes to cook them, the slower they digest and affect your bloodsugar

 

[jjjd]

try the irish steel cut oats. they taste GREAT (nutty and filling). and have all the fiber. they are not rolled, but cut.

i like them with some milk, whey protein powder, butter, and erythritol (fake sugar)

 

[Mike Oxlong]

cool, thanks

 

[Jag]

JAG, what kind of oats are you using?? Cause I know those 'instant oats' are a pretty high GI

i just use good ol' Uncle Toby's Traditional oats.

i have cooked them before but i usually just have them raw. less hassle!!

i really look forward to this shake after training now.

Jag

 

[Pfunk47]

From what I've read in "The Zone" which, by the way has excellent discussions on how food affects hormones, says that those instant oats, plain or not, are still high GI. The ones that are still in big thick bunches and take 10-30 minutes to cook are the lower GI oats. Coincidentally, the longer it takes to cook them, the slower they digest and affect your bloodsugar

I agree that the instant are higher 65 on the glycemic index compared to slow cooked which is 49 Gi. A litte to close to to 70 which isn't horrible but still not the best - you made me research as I thought plain instant was equal to slow cooked - I am now switching my oats, haha

 

[AcuDoc]

Alright so: No fats in the post w/o shake
MCTs in pre w/o shake

Is this correct?
How about simple carbs in the pre w/o shake or should we just use protein?

 

[Mike Oxlong]

I would say no the the simple sugars pre w/o as this will cause an insulin spike which will make it difficult to access your fat stores during the workout.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I would say no the the simple sugars pre w/o as this will cause an insulin spike which will make it difficult to access your fat stores during the workout.

Stored fat is not released and oxidized that quickly. Exercise releases the majority of FFA's into your bloodstream and diet over time oxidizes them. The production of insulin won't have any effects on "accessing fat stores" during exercise. In fact, cell permeability will increase and what happens after that depends on diet and circulating FFA's.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

If you have a high insulin level in response to a spike in your blood sugar, then how would one be able use fat for energy, when insulin is a storing hormone?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Becuase its pre-workout and those calories will be used. The body uses all sources at all times, not just one. Insulin is a storage hormone but the bodies repsonse to exercise is to fill glyocgen stores first (skeletal muscle and liver), fat stores second and if there isn't an abundance of circultating FFA's then the probablity of nutrients being converted into tryglycerides is very unlikely. It would be better to sip it through your workout. In any case the best time you can get away with these tpye of drinks aorund pre or during workout.

 

[AcuDoc]

Becuase its pre-workout and those calories will be used. The body uses all sources at all times, not just one. Insulin is a storage hormone but the bodies repsonse to exercise is to fill glyocgen stores first (skeletal muscle and liver), fat stores second and if there isn't an abundance of circultating FFA's then the probablity of nutrients being converted into tryglycerides is very unlikely. It would be better to sip it through your workout. In any case the best time you can get away with these tpye of drinks aorund pre or during workout.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

TheUsual,

welcome here.

i devoted a lot of time to experiment with this pre, during & post w/o nutrition buisness just to sort it out once & for all...............for myself.

i was armed with a lot of info including Zeppilins "pre, during, post w/o nutrition" article. my conclusion was that all the dex & malto just made me FAT.
Jag

Jag, how much dex & pro were you using in your post WO shakes??