Marriage......An open discussion.

Squeaks4ver

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haha i will say that is totally true.. but in my life i have noticed the shoe to be on the other hand. They all say how much they love my open nature, how i dress, act etc etc... and then when they became the "BF" it was.. stop doing this, stop doing that... that green monster kicked in big time! Funny thing is.. i am the most faithful and honest person i know when it came to relationships... ahh the male ego.
 
Triple Cs

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Why should anybody (especially men) co-mingle finances or get married. Unless you are deeply religious (although the Bible never accounts for No Fault Divorce laws), there is no reason to get married. It is a contract between 2 people and the state that forms a corporation between two people.

Why not just live together and draft an agreement for any assets that must be owned jointly (like a house)? No rings, no parties, no contracts. When the relationship is over, each party keeps their stuff and can make a much cleaner break. Most successful women (Oprah comes to mind) don't get married or have pre-nups. The only thing that marriage does is place you under a contract that could change at any time, you could lose over 50% (Jared lost 60%, Micheal Strahan lost 70%), pay alimony and be forced to pay child support for a baby that is not biologically yours. There is no benefits to signing the contract, only risk (unless your partner earns much more than you.

Marriage also gives each party an incentive to let themselves go. I know many men who have wives who cut of the sex, cut their hair unattractively short, chunk up a good 50 pounds and behave like witches.

More people think this way than you would expect. A quarter of all college educated never want to get married. Above that, another 40% would only marry the "perfect woman". In a survey 60% of wives revealed that they have been unfaithful in their marriage. 80% were unhappy with the man they picked.

For those of you in good marriages, good luck and I hope it stays that way because if she wants out (most divorces are initiated by the woman) your life can be ruined. Many women that seem nice can be very vengeful and can even make false DV accusations under the VAWA act. I think that if a woman truly loved me she would respect and understand my views. Most of the words like "commitment" and "security" make much more sense if you insert the word "financial" in front of them when you are talking about marriage.

Marriage was always about money, never love. It is designed to keep two people together when they are no longer in love. Getting married proves nothing about your love and provides no advantages.

/end rant
 
Trauma1

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Why should anybody (especially men) co-mingle finances or get married. Unless you are deeply religious (although the Bible never accounts for No Fault Divorce laws), there is no reason to get married. It is a contract between 2 people and the state that forms a corporation between two people.

Why not just live together and draft an agreement for any assets that must be owned jointly (like a house)? No rings, no parties, no contracts. When the relationship is over, each party keeps their stuff and can make a much cleaner break. Most successful women (Oprah comes to mind) don't get married or have pre-nups. The only thing that marriage does is place you under a contract that could change at any time, you could lose over 50% (Jared lost 60%, Micheal Strahan lost 70%), pay alimony and be forced to pay child support for a baby that is not biologically yours. There is no benefits to signing the contract, only risk (unless your partner earns much more than you.

Marriage also gives each party an incentive to let themselves go. I know many men who have wives who cut of the sex, cut their hair unattractively short, chunk up a good 50 pounds and behave like witches.

More people think this way than you would expect. A quarter of all college educated never want to get married. Above that, another 40% would only marry the "perfect woman". In a survey 60% of wives revealed that they have been unfaithful in their marriage. 80% were unhappy with the man they picked.

For those of you in good marriages, good luck and I hope it stays that way because if she wants out (most divorces are initiated by the woman) your life can be ruined. Many women that seem nice can be very vengeful and can even make false DV accusations under the VAWA act. I think that if a woman truly loved me she would respect and understand my views. Most of the words like "commitment" and "security" make much more sense if you insert the word "financial" in front of them when you are talking about marriage.

Marriage was always about money, never love. It is designed to keep two people together when they are no longer in love. Getting married proves nothing about your love and provides no advantages.

/end rant
I'll just say this. To each their own. I don't agree with the majority of what you posted( I.E. - "marriage was always about money, not love" comment is complete B.S. imo), but if you feel that way then there is nothing wrong with that. I didn't see you state one advantage of being married in your post either. Your entire post was articulated in a negative fashion. In all honesty, you sound quite jaded to me.

I'm very happily married and base my marriage on love, TOTAL commitment, and respect. Lack of communication and compromise is a large factor that dooms many marriages right from the very beginning. Some people shouldn't get married, and i completely agree with that.

However, don't condemn all marriages as being a lost cause. I don't doubt myself for a second that i made the right decision in choosing my wife. Together, we make each other better.
 
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DAdams91982

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I'll just say this. To each their own. I don't agree with the majority of what you posted(the marriage was always about money, not love comment is complete B.S. imo), but if you feel that way then there is nothing wrong with that. I didn't see you state one advantage of being married in your post either. Your entire post was articulated in a negative fashion. In all honesty, you sound quite jaded in your post.

I'm very happily married and base my marriage on love, TOTAL commitment, and respect. Lack of communication and compromise is a large factor that dooms many marriages right from the very beginning. Some people shouldn't get married, and i completely agree with that.

However, don't condemn all marriages as being a lost cause. I don't doubt myself for a second that i made the right decision in choosing my wife. Together, we make each other better.
I was thinking the same thing. Though you just worded it with more tact than I can muster up.

Adams
 
Iron Warrior

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Women pick a man hoping to change him.
Men pick a women hoping she will never change.

:D
The story of my life :toofunny: I hate it when they get too comfortable in a relationship and suddenly gain weight and I'm not talking about gaining weight from the pill either LOL.

Advantages to not being married: I don't have obligations to anyone. I don't have to watch crappy TV and pretend I enjoy it. I don't have to be told to stop watching football. I don't have to be told that I'm spending too much time on the gym or AM :D I don't have to hang out with people I don't click with. You are forced to find good FB's.

Disadvantages: The booty is not available at my conveniece 24/7. I have to find a lot of dates, which takes time and effort. I have to cook and clean LOL.
 
Palo Alto Labs

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Advantages to not being married: I don't have obligations to anyone. I don't have to watch crappy TV and pretend I enjoy it. I don't have to be told to stop watching football. I don't have to be told that I'm spending too much time on the gym or AM :D I don't have to hang out with people I don't click with. You are forced to find good FB's.
Sounds like you were just dating the wrong girl... my girl loves college football more than I do. its all about finding someone who compliments your interests in life.
 
Iron Warrior

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Sounds like you were just dating the wrong girl... my girl loves college football more than I do. its all about finding someone who compliments your interests in life.
I once went out with a chick who loved the 49ers and Cal Bears but she was a coke head :sad:

I just usually date for beauty, which I know sounds shallow, but I'm not trying to get married until I'm in my early to mid thirties.
 

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Disadvantages: The booty is not available at my conveniece 24/7. I have to find a lot of dates, which takes time and effort. I have to cook and clean LOL.
I just had this discussion with my wife recently. Now keep in mind we have been together 11 years, and even then it is not at my convenience 24/7, never has been never will be. Just the story of life. I am happy at a couple times a week:aargh:
 
Trauma1

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Sounds like you were just dating the wrong girl... my girl loves college football more than I do. its all about finding someone who compliments your interests in life.
It sounds like our women would get along great dave. :) My wife is a HUGE Florida Gator fan. I've even converted her into a red sox fan. She watches sox games now even when i'm not with her.
 
crader

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Sounds like some of you are looking at the wrong women. I lift weights, spend a good amount of time at the gym and on supplements. I watch football and as far as the sex goes, even if you are not married to someone its never at your convienence. Sex is a two person thing and even GF's arent at your beck and call. That being said I get sex almost every night. Sex and marriage can go together. :)
 
Palo Alto Labs

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It sounds like our women would get along great dave. :) My wife is a HUGE Florida Gator fan. I've even converted her into a red sox fan. She watches sox games now even when i'm not with her.
Nope.. they would fight to the death. My girl is die-hard UM. Anytime we have driven past Gville on I75, she tends to scream some obscenities out the window :toofunny: and yes im serious!!
If a game is on the radio when we are driving, shes screaming at the top of her lungs... shes intense!
 
Iron Warrior

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I just had this discussion with my wife recently. Now keep in mind we have been together 11 years, and even then it is not at my convenience 24/7, never has been never will be. Just the story of life. I am happy at a couple times a week:aargh:
Wow dude, your depressing me LOL. That's like taxation without representation :D
 
rugger48

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I'll just say this. To each their own. I don't agree with the majority of what you posted( I.E. - "marriage was always about money, not love" comment is complete B.S. imo), but if you feel that way then there is nothing wrong with that. I didn't see you state one advantage of being married in your post either. Your entire post was articulated in a negative fashion. In all honesty, you sound quite jaded to me.

I'm very happily married and base my marriage on love, TOTAL commitment, and respect. Lack of communication and compromise is a large factor that dooms many marriages right from the very beginning. Some people shouldn't get married, and i completely agree with that.

However, don't condemn all marriages as being a lost cause. I don't doubt myself for a second that i made the right decision in choosing my wife. Together, we make each other better.

Hes 23, give it time.
 
Trauma1

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Nope.. they would fight to the death. My girl is die-hard UM. Anytime we have driven past Gville on I75, she tends to scream some obscenities out the window :toofunny: and yes im serious!!
If a game is on the radio when we are driving, shes screaming at the top of her lungs... shes intense!
Girl Fight!!

If we all end up going to the UF/UM game, it could be very very interesting. :D
 
Triple Cs

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I'll just say this. To each their own. I don't agree with the majority of what you posted( I.E. - "marriage was always about money, not love" comment is complete B.S. imo), but if you feel that way then there is nothing wrong with that. I didn't see you state one advantage of being married in your post either. Your entire post was articulated in a negative fashion. In all honesty, you sound quite jaded to me.

I'm very happily married and base my marriage on love, TOTAL commitment, and respect. Lack of communication and compromise is a large factor that dooms many marriages right from the very beginning. Some people shouldn't get married, and i completely agree with that.

However, don't condemn all marriages as being a lost cause. I don't doubt myself for a second that i made the right decision in choosing my wife. Together, we make each other better.
I'm not jaded at all. I am still friends with my exes and am happy that I choose them. You can have loyalty, love, commitment, respect...without signing a contract. That's what marriage is, a contract. There's no requirement that you be in love to get married, the only thing required is that you accept the financial ramifications of being married.

As far as me being 23, I believe as I do because of the older guys that I know. My dad is "happily married" and even though he is one of the lucky few. I have to look at his life compared to others. My friends dad, divorced, has his freedom and does whatever he wants. He gets to date much younger women. He doesn't have any financial ties to maintain.

All marriages aren't bad, but your odds aren't good. Marriage is best for the children, but I am dead set against having any due my experience working in child support collections. A man that wants to do the right thing for his children should get married, but you haven't told me a single advantage to being married besides "my wife is great".

You summarily dismiss my post, but I gave you what the facts are. Every guy thinks he made the right choice and half get divorced. Many that don't get divorced are unhappy. So I will ask this question, What about having a signed contract with the government makes your relationship so much better than having a girlfriend who lives with you or at her own place?
 
Trauma1

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I'm not jaded at all. I am still friends with my exes and am happy that I choose them. You can have loyalty, love, commitment, respect...without signing a contract. That's what marriage is, a contract. There's no requirement that you be in love to get married, the only thing required is that you accept the financial ramifications of being married.
As far as me being 23, I believe as I do because of the older guys that I know. My dad is "happily married" and even though he is one of the lucky few. I have to look at his life compared to others. My friends dad, divorced, has his freedom and does whatever he wants. He gets to date much younger women. He doesn't have any financial ties to maintain.

All marriages aren't bad, but your odds aren't good. Marriage is best for the children, but I am dead set against having any due my experience working in child support collections. A man that wants to do the right thing for his children should get married, but you haven't told me a single advantage to being married besides "my wife is great".

You summarily dismiss my post, but I gave you what the facts are. Every guy thinks he made the right choice and half get divorced. Many that don't get divorced are unhappy. So I will ask this question, What about having a signed contract with the government makes your relationship so much better than having a girlfriend who lives with you or at her own place?
I really should just let Dadams handle your weak rebuttal, but i'll go ahead anyway. What facts? You gave nothing but your own negative opinionated views on marriage coupled with an apparent survey? :rolleyes: Give me a freakin' break.

I could go on for an hour why i chose my wife. She makes every facet of my life better in EVERY way. I look forward to starting a family and building our unified lives together.

Yet again, you articulate a weak arguement that consists of merely your own personal views of marriage and nothing more. You're entitled to feel the way that you do, but don't profess your negative views of marriage like it's the end result of them all. There are equally as many people that get married for the right reasons in contrast to those that didn't.

The highlighted segment i provided is complete bullsh*t and quite an immature statement. However, your 23 y/o and i should take that into consideration when weighing the significance of that statement. If you seriously continue to think that way then you indeed should never be married yourself, because you clearly don't understand what a marriage truly is by any stretch of the imagination.....

As i said, marriage isn't for everybody, and that is ok. However, don't come in here and preach a one-sided view that marriage is "Nothing more than a meaningless paper contract" as would seem is blatently implied.
 
Dadof2

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I'm not jaded at all. I am still friends with my exes and am happy that I choose them. You can have loyalty, love, commitment, respect...without signing a contract. That's what marriage is, a contract. There's no requirement that you be in love to get married, the only thing required is that you accept the financial ramifications of being married.

As far as me being 23, I believe as I do because of the older guys that I know. My dad is "happily married" and even though he is one of the lucky few. I have to look at his life compared to others. My friends dad, divorced, has his freedom and does whatever he wants. He gets to date much younger women. He doesn't have any financial ties to maintain.

All marriages aren't bad, but your odds aren't good. Marriage is best for the children, but I am dead set against having any due my experience working in child support collections. A man that wants to do the right thing for his children should get married, but you haven't told me a single advantage to being married besides "my wife is great".

You summarily dismiss my post, but I gave you what the facts are. Every guy thinks he made the right choice and half get divorced. Many that don't get divorced are unhappy. So I will ask this question, What about having a signed contract with the government makes your relationship so much better than having a girlfriend who lives with you or at her own place?

You are not alone in your opinions of marriage, and I ,although I am a happily married man, agree with your position.

The media refers to this as "the marriage strike", and many young men are deciding not to marry. While many are quick to declare that this "marriage strike" is the result of too many immature men, I am convinced that the marriage strike is an unintended consequence of feminism.

I predict that the future of heterosexual marriage is in great danger, and this will only get worse as technology improves. How many men will be looking to even court a woman when he can have virtual sex while sitting at his computer, or with a real doll'esqe sex robot?
 
Trauma1

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You are not alone in your opinions of marriage, and I ,although I am a happily married man, agree with your position.

The media refers to this as "the marriage strike", and many young men are deciding not to marry. While many are quick to declare that this "marriage strike" is the result of too many immature men, I am convinced that the marriage strike is an unintended consequence of feminism.

I predict that the future of heterosexual marriage is in great danger, and this will only get worse as technology improves. How many men will be looking to even court a woman when he can have virtual sex while sitting at his computer, or with a real doll'esqe sex robot?
I'm going to have to respectfually disagree with you here. There are plenty of immature people that shouldn't be getting married in the first place, regardless of any feminism factor that can contribute into the equation.

You're going to tell me that you or anyone else would rather have sex with a robot doll than your significant other?:fool2: Come on now buddy......
 
rugger48

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I'm not jaded at all. I am still friends with my exes and am happy that I choose them. You can have loyalty, love, commitment, respect...without signing a contract. That's what marriage is, a contract. There's no requirement that you be in love to get married, the only thing required is that you accept the financial ramifications of being married.

As far as me being 23, I believe as I do because of the older guys that I know. My dad is "happily married" and even though he is one of the lucky few. I have to look at his life compared to others. My friends dad, divorced, has his freedom and does whatever he wants. He gets to date much younger women. He doesn't have any financial ties to maintain.

All marriages aren't bad, but your odds aren't good. Marriage is best for the children, but I am dead set against having any due my experience working in child support collections. A man that wants to do the right thing for his children should get married, but you haven't told me a single advantage to being married besides "my wife is great".

You summarily dismiss my post, but I gave you what the facts are. Every guy thinks he made the right choice and half get divorced. Many that don't get divorced are unhappy. So I will ask this question, What about having a signed contract with the government makes your relationship so much better than having a girlfriend who lives with you or at her own place?


My comment on 23 has more to do with your inexperience of the topic and what you think you want out of marriage or a relationship. All im gonna tell you is Im 38 and my veiws on marriage and life in general were totally different at the age of 23 then they are now. Anybody who thinks they have it figured out at that age I would love to meet in 15 years. Im not saying your an idiot or that you dont completely know what your talking about, but your dad or others peoples fathers are not going to tell you enough of what to expect. You opinion seems slightly skewed and reasonably so, but my guess, and its only a guess, they will change slowly over the next 5-7 years.
 
Dadof2

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I'm going to have to respectfually disagree with you here. There are plenty of immature people that shouldn't be getting married in the first place, regardless of any feminism factor that can contribute into the equation.

You're going to tell me that you or anyone else would rather have sex with a robot doll than your significant other?:fool2: Come on now buddy......

I don't disagree that many people who do get married shouldn't get married.

However, think of the state of divorce in this country, that alone is more than enough to dissuade a thinking man from marrying. In "no fault divorces" a husband/wife can file for divorce for no reason whatsoever, and statistically speaking it is the wife who files for divorce more often.

When a man goes through a divorce proceeding odds are he is going to lose a lot of money via alamony and/or child support, and a divorce settlement of the couples assets. Couple that with the fact that it will take an act of congress for him to see his kids more than once or twice a week, and I ask you "where is the appeal in that".

Who would pick a marriage, which is essentially a contract between two people and the state, over just having a committed relationship and leaving the state out of it? If presented with this choice how many men would choose marriage? Even sincere women who aren't considering her odds if a divorce were to happen are more likely to pick the marriage just because of the programming they have recieved since childhood regarding white dresses, and happily ever after.

And as far as sex robots go, we haven't seen a sex robot yet, so we really don't know what to expect. However, what we do know is that they are coming(no pun intended). Considering how little emotion factors into a males sex drive, I cannot imagine they will be anything but a smashing success.
 
Trauma1

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I don't disagree that many people who do get married shouldn't get married.

However, think of the state of divorce in this country, that alone is more than enough to dissuade a thinking man from marrying. In "no fault divorces" a husband/wife can file for divorce for no reason whatsoever, and statistically speaking it is the wife who files for divorce more often.

When a man goes through a divorce proceeding odds are he is going to lose a lot of money via alamony and/or child support, and a divorce settlement of the couples assets. Couple that with the fact that it will take an act of congress for him to see his kids more than once or twice a week, and I ask you "where is the appeal in that".

Who would pick a marriage, which is essentially a contract between two people and the state, over just having a committed relationship and leaving the state out of it? If presented with this choice how many men would choose marriage? Even sincere women who aren't considering her odds if a divorce were to happen are more likely to pick the marriage just because of the programming they have recieved since childhood regarding white dresses, and happily ever after.

And as far as sex robots go, we haven't seen a sex robot yet, so we really don't know what to expect. However, what we do know is that they are coming(no pun intended). Considering how little emotion factors into a males sex drive, I cannot imagine they will be anything but a smashing success.
I can agree to some of that, but many of these young guys are subjected to nothing but negativity in regard to marriage. This consists mainly of piss poor advice from those that have endured failed marriages themselves......many of which were directly resulted of their own doing.

I just don't like to see all these young guys having this "Marriage is bad" attitude. We all have our different views on what consists of a successfull marraige. Not to mention that many marriages end in divorce due to the convenience of it in general. The general demeanor of many young guys today is: Compromise? Why compromise, i can just as easily get divorced and get what i want.

Nobody ever said a successfull marriage didn't have some work involved, but many don't want to do it. It's easier to run away from problems that may arise. These are the same people that shouldn't have married in the first place.

As for the robot women........I don't see it happening in our lifetime bro. Human chicks FTW! :D :chick:
 
Triple Cs

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Marriage has two meanings. The emotional meaning "love, commitment...". Even if you love all those things (which have been programmed into us all our lives), the legal meaning is what counts. You have no argument that he legal arrangement is at all positive.

You are quick to blame young men for not wanting to get married. If you have read the book Freakonomics, people respond to incentives which will then turn into society-wide movements. I hope we at least agree that the incentive to get married has weakened. Availability of sex, live-in relationships, chances of divorce, new laws...men are simply responding to incentive.

You cannot avoid divorce by just "picking the right one", this is a judgement bias. Everyone assumes that they have above average judgement, so they won't make those mistakes. They will beat the odds and be happy forever. I don't think many people get married thinking "this won't work".

I am not a gambler. When the odds are not in my favor, I am humble enough to walk away. Do I think I am better than most at picking a partner? Absolutely, my ex-gfs could have treated me a lot worse, I've seen it happen to others. The point is, when you make a mistake, you won't realize until it is far too late.

Finally, I do not see why anger would be directed at me. "Immature, not willing to comprimise, not willing to commit, you're bitter" is all shaming language. I don't know anything about YOUR marriage, I am rationally explaining the staistics. Nobody has answered my question of what they have gained by going to the courthouse and signing a marriage certificate. "My wife is dedicate/loving/helpful perfect" is not an argument. Nevermind the fact that it uses a sample size of 1, which I was criticzed for using examples of people I personally know. Plenty of guys live with a woman that loves/supports them every bit as much as your wife. The argument I am making is not for the men who are married, it is for the single ones reading this. Lifelong love, commitment and all need not be accompanied by a contract and all the procedures that go with it.

This is an open discussion and I am placing blame right where it belongs. The government has destroyed the incentives to get married. As a libertarian, I want the government to stop regulating everything from what goes into my body to what is supposed to be the most private/intimate relationship I will ever have.

Marriage And Fatherhood Linked To Lower Testosterone Levels

Or I could just be extremely dedicated.
 
Trauma1

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Marriage has two meanings. The emotional meaning "love, commitment...". Even if you love all those things (which have been programmed into us all our lives), the legal meaning is what counts.
Good god! Talk to me again in 5-7 years as already previously stated. At 23, i thought COMPLETELY different than i do now. However, there is a reason for that. Wisdom comes with age and experience.

I don't place any hate or blame in your direction what-so-ever. Your arguement is completely one sided and that is what bothers me.

I can argue just as strong for people not getting married in todays society, however you've clearly demonstrated your own bias based views as they may be. I've already said, marriage isn't for everybody, and without at doubt some people should NEVER be married.
 
Triple Cs

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Of course I am biased, my points represent my point of view. Where is the wisdom in thinking that what something means to me is more important that what something means under the law? The law is what we all live under and are subject to the law everyday of our lives. What the law says is more important than what anybody feels.

I still haven't heard the advantage to going down to the courthouse and subjecting yourself to marriage and family court law. It should be easy to just tell me the benefit that you have personally recieved that you couldn't get otherwise. Why should I wait 5-7 years to "see and know the vast wisdom" of this? It is a simple question and if there isn't a simple, logical answer then there is no point in further posting. I don't think the risk and reward can be laid out any clearer.
 
Trauma1

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Of course I am biased, my points represent my point of view. Where is the wisdom in thinking that what something means to me is more important that what something means under the law? The law is what we all live under and are subject to the law everyday of our lives. What the law says is more important than what anybody feels.

I still haven't heard the advantage to going down to the courthouse and subjecting yourself to marriage and family court law. It should be easy to just tell me the benefit that you have personally recieved that you couldn't get otherwise. Why should I wait 5-7 years to "see and know the vast wisdom" of this? It is a simple question and if there isn't a simple, logical answer then there is no point in further posting. I don't think the risk and reward can be laid out any clearer.

Wow, i'm sorry but you are clueless. I'll let somebody else address this because it's too easy.

We'll agree to COMPLETELY disagree

/exits
 

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Wow, i'm sorry but you are clueless. I'll let somebody else address this because it's too easy.

We'll agree to COMPLETELY disagree

/exits
I have a strong tendency to agree with Triple Cs. I'm new to this site so I'll try to mesh in without ruffling too many feathers.

IMO, marriage can be good for men if they get lucky and find the right woman, and both the man and woman are happy. If one of the two chooses wrong and the ex-wife or about-to-be ex-wife is really angry about it, (a woman scorned...) she has many ways to totally screw him and get "even" with him and the government will totally support her. A good example of this is the wacko woman in New Mexico who a little way back filed for a restraining order against David Letterman in New York and told the judge that he was harassing her using brain waves through the TV. The judge granted the restraining order! His justification? She completed the required form. Of course, David Letterman had the money to hire an expensive lawyer in New Mexico to get the restraining order thrown out, but many men don't. And having a restraining order against you automatically causes problems for you, as a man, as far as rights are concerned. For example, having a restraining order against you automatically makes you ineligible to buy or own a gun. Imagine if the guy is a cop. Of course, the David Letterman case was all over the news, so it was hard for the judge to ignore Letterman's legal efforts to get it thrown out. If he was a regular guy, fagetabaaaaat it! Why? To ensure the wife's and children's safety against us mean, sick, mentally deranged male predators, they will always be willing to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety. And by the way, by federal law, the Violence Against Women Act, no proof is required for a woman to get a restraining order. It only takes her word that she's afraid of you. Furthermore, unless you have the money to appeal stupid judgements by stupid, feminist-brainwashed judges, you don't stand a chance in these family courts. They almost always side with the woman, no matter what, and then justify it by saying that if they err, they want to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety.

In marriage, all a woman has to do is choose a guy with decent money-making ability and she makes out no matter how the marriage goes. Why? Because in most instances, unless she agrees otherwise, she will get primary custody of your children and men get every-other weekend visiting rights. Whoo-Hooo! And if she and her new boyfriend want to move 1000 miles away, tough! (In most cases since it's not usually all that hard to justify if she's moving for better money... remember the welfare of the children is paramount). And of course, your child support obligation remains the same. Not only that, child support isn't based on the cost of child support. It's based on a percentage of the man's earnings. If I remember correctly, a ways back P-Ditty was ordered to pay his ex something like $7200 per month child support for his one child. So if a woman plays it right and has a different child by different well-heeled men, there is no limit to the monthly income she can accumulate. Certainly enough to hire help if she finds she's having trouble managing the kids. And the government's justification will always be that their actions are in the best interest of the children. And the women don't have to account in any way for how they spend the "child support". For men? How many divorces can a guy take if each time he has to give up a percentage of his income. How long does it take before he doesn't have the money to properly support himself? And by the way, there doesn't have to be children involved to be ordered to pay alimony if the ex says she can't live without it. And if she finds it's not enough, she can always go back and request that it be raised. Just try to get child support reduced when the welfare of the children are involved. The accrual of child support doesn't stop even after you lose your job or even if you go to jail (best interest of the children). In fact, since the 1970's, there's a federal law that says there is no reason whatsoever that justifies stopping or reducing child support retroactively. And that includes a man's death. Die and the money will still be taken from your estate if the children are still of age. And that's even in the case of paternity fraud. If the baby's not yours, you had better find out fast! In fact, in many cases after two years, you pay even after finding out later that the baby isn't yours, even with a DNA test. Nice, huh! The feminists have a very strong lobby. Men? Almost none because men in most instance take it like men. And women are so much better at whining.

And concerning getting lucky in picking a woman, we don't seem to get better at it because 2nd and 3rd and 4th marriages have progressively higher rates of failure than 1st marriages do.

And by the way, since divorces are filed about 70% of the time by women, don't you think this shows that women know how the laws and judges are biased in their favor? Even if we have a good marriage (she hasn't found someone she thinks is better than you yet), don't you think this affects how she acts and we can act towards our wives in any disagrement? And also, with all the situation comedies and advertisements on TV that repeatedly portray women as intelligent and us men as child-like and stupid, do you really think that after so many years of this brainwashing our women are going to show our side of a disagreement a whole lot of respect when she disagrees with us?

I say the only way to maintain a proper relationship with a woman is not to marry her or get her pregnant because at the marriage and baby point, she has the entire deck stacked in her favor, whatever the case may be. And by the way, nice guys get screwed even worse than bad boys in family court because women are least afraid of screwing nice guys. In most cases, nice guys take all the screwing "like a man". While your woman loves you now, how do you think you might be treated if she finds someone better and feels based on all the brainwashing in the media that a father contributes almost nothing to a child's well-being and she feels that having you out of the picture will make the situation between her and the new paramour better.

Sorry if I got a bit long. I could go on, but won't. A good book I recently read was by Stephen Baskerville entitled, "Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers, Marriage, and the Family". Another, shorter book by a lawyer, Jed H. Abraham is also good entitled "From Courtship to Courtroom: What Divorce Law is Doing to Marriage..."

Marriage can be good with the right woman, but they fail more than 50% of the time (bad odds) and when they do, we are easily dead meat, especially if the wife has found someone she thinks will be better in one way or other, like he would be a better father to "her" kids. I say, ignore all this at your peril.

A good website to keep up with because of all the current articles about the latest on the subject and other related subjects is glennsacks dot com.

:cheers:
 

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Wow dude, your depressing me LOL. That's like taxation without representation :D
sadly no one is at anyones beck and call as crader said previously. What I have found, and I am sure everyone here can attest to it, views on intimacy and sex vary from men and women. There is more "needs" with women than there are with men. As my father told me many years ago ( I am sure we have all heard this one) "Women need a reason to have sex, men need a place"
 

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I have a strong tendency to agree with Triple Cs. I'm new to this site so I'll try to mesh in without ruffling too many feathers.

IMO, marriage can be good for men if they get lucky and find the right woman, and both the man and woman are happy. If one of the two chooses wrong and the ex-wife or about-to-be ex-wife is really angry about it, (a woman scorned...) she has many ways to totally screw him and get "even" with him and the government will totally support her. A good example of this is the wacko woman in New Mexico who a little way back filed for a restraining order against David Letterman in New York and told the judge that he was harassing her using brain waves through the TV. The judge granted the restraining order! His justification? She completed the required form. Of course, David Letterman had the money to hire an expensive lawyer in New Mexico to get the restraining order thrown out, but many men don't. And having a restraining order against you automatically causes problems for you, as a man, as far as rights are concerned. For example, having a restraining order against you automatically makes you ineligible to buy or own a gun. Imagine if the guy is a cop. Of course, the David Letterman case was all over the news, so it was hard for the judge to ignore Letterman's legal efforts to get it thrown out. If he was a regular guy, fagetabaaaaat it! Why? To ensure the wife's and children's safety against us mean, sick, mentally deranged male predators, they will always be willing to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety. And by the way, by federal law, the Violence Against Women Act, no proof is required for a woman to get a restraining order. It only takes her word that she's afraid of you. Furthermore, unless you have the money to appeal stupid judgements by stupid, feminist-brainwashed judges, you don't stand a chance in these family courts. They almost always side with the woman, no matter what, and then justify it by saying that if they err, they want to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety.

In marriage, all a woman has to do is choose a guy with decent money-making ability and she makes out no matter how the marriage goes. Why? Because in most instances, unless she agrees otherwise, she will get primary custody of your children and men get every-other weekend visiting rights. Whoo-Hooo! And if she and her new boyfriend want to move 1000 miles away, tough! (In most cases since it's not usually all that hard to justify if she's moving for better money... remember the welfare of the children is paramount). And of course, your child support obligation remains the same. Not only that, child support isn't based on the cost of child support. It's based on a percentage of the man's earnings. If I remember correctly, a ways back P-Ditty was ordered to pay his ex something like $7200 per month child support for his one child. So if a woman plays it right and has a different child by different well-heeled men, there is no limit to the monthly income she can accumulate. Certainly enough to hire help if she finds she's having trouble managing the kids. And the government's justification will always be that their actions are in the best interest of the children. And the women don't have to account in any way for how they spend the "child support". For men? How many divorces can a guy take if each time he has to give up a percentage of his income. How long does it take before he doesn't have the money to properly support himself? And by the way, there doesn't have to be children involved to be ordered to pay alimony if the ex says she can't live without it. And if she finds it's not enough, she can always go back and request that it be raised. Just try to get child support reduced when the welfare of the children are involved. The accrual of child support doesn't stop even after you lose your job or even if you go to jail (best interest of the children). In fact, since the 1970's, there's a federal law that says there is no reason whatsoever that justifies stopping or reducing child support retroactively. And that includes a man's death. Die and the money will still be taken from your estate if the children are still of age. And that's even in the case of paternity fraud. If the baby's not yours, you had better find out fast! In fact, in many cases after two years, you pay even after finding out later that the baby isn't yours, even with a DNA test. Nice, huh! The feminists have a very strong lobby. Men? Almost none because men in most instance take it like men. And women are so much better at whining.

And concerning getting lucky in picking a woman, we don't seem to get better at it because 2nd and 3rd and 4th marriages have progressively higher rates of failure than 1st marriages do.

And by the way, since divorces are filed about 70% of the time by women, don't you think this shows that women know how the laws and judges are biased in their favor? Even if we have a good marriage (she hasn't found someone she thinks is better than you yet), don't you think this affects how she acts and we can act towards our wives in any disagrement? And also, with all the situation comedies and advertisements on TV that repeatedly portray women as intelligent and us men as child-like and stupid, do you really think that after so many years of this brainwashing our women are going to show our side of a disagreement a whole lot of respect when she disagrees with us?

I say the only way to maintain a proper relationship with a woman is not to marry her or get her pregnant because at the marriage and baby point, she has the entire deck stacked in her favor, whatever the case may be. And by the way, nice guys get screwed even worse than bad boys in family court because women are least afraid of screwing nice guys. In most cases, nice guys take all the screwing "like a man". While your woman loves you now, how do you think you might be treated if she finds someone better and feels based on all the brainwashing in the media that a father contributes almost nothing to a child's well-being and she feels that having you out of the picture will make the situation between her and the new paramour better.

Sorry if I got a bit long. I could go on, but won't. A good book I recently read was by Stephen Baskerville entitled, "Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers, Marriage, and the Family". Another, shorter book by a lawyer, Jed H. Abraham is also good entitled "From Courtship to Courtroom: What Divorce Law is Doing to Marriage..."

Marriage can be good with the right woman, but they fail more than 50% of the time (bad odds) and when they do, we are easily dead meat, especially if the wife has found someone she thinks will be better in one way or other, like he would be a better father to "her" kids. I say, ignore all this at your peril.

A good website to keep up with because of all the current articles about the latest on the subject and other related subjects is glennsacks dot com.

:clean:
let me say this, about a year ago the topic of divorce came up in my house, it was primarily prompted by outside forces for my wife, but it was a topic none the less. With that said, yes the laws are predominantly on her side, however , you need to at that point play the game. There are ways to get into someones head and play the game. It is a sad state of affairs but it is a reality in this world. Divorce is more common then ever.

Here is a sad example. I am a high school teacher, and during the summer I am an administrator for my districts summer program. I was looking through some registration paper work this past week, and was astounded how many different addresses there were for parents of early elementary school kids. It was kinda depressing
 
Mulletsoldier

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Nobody should be fooling themselves into thinking monogamous relationships are inherently social constructions, and therein merely relational legalities; one of the fundamental differences in the pair-bonding and mating habits of humans, over most other animals, is the existence of monogamous pair-bonding. In fact, such monogamy - keeping in mind monogamy is not merely denotative of sexual preference - characterized by a high-level of investment in offspring, and the considerations of both emotional and biological stimuli, is probably one of the reasons we evolved into the apex Homo Sapiens species.

Mating has never been an exclusively biological process, and advances in comparative psychology using our closest genetic relatives - higher primates - are beginning to reveal as such. It is being noted that female chimps do not look exclusively for favorable genetic indicators for their partners; they are taking into consideration normative indicators usually ascribed to humans: trustworthiness, reciprocity, and status to name a few.

Quite simply, marriage is a rational-legal affirmation of processes innate to the human experience; extremely convoluted, and complex processes, but innate nonetheless. Such pragmatic decisions of monogamy are now having critical encounters - some irreconcilable - with aspects of the modern complex. Our advances in biology are now pressing the limits of monogamous capacities - that is, life expectancies for the bulk of our existence were less than 40; living to 89 is beyond what our evolutionary mating process is accustomed to. This difficult reconciliation process between evolutionary biology and modernity is really only exacerbated by the incredibly complex nature of the human experience as a whole: gender expectations, cultural transmission, language, social definition, ego and insecurity, sexuality, these are all things which muddy the water further.

At times we like to throw neat little bows on things, and call them our own; marriage is exemplary of this trait. Such lifelong monogamy is indicative of human sexual patterns from jump street.
 
Trauma1

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I have a strong tendency to agree with Triple Cs. I'm new to this site so I'll try to mesh in without ruffling too many feathers.

IMO, marriage can be good for men if they get lucky and find the right woman, and both the man and woman are happy. If one of the two chooses wrong and the ex-wife or about-to-be ex-wife is really angry about it, (a woman scorned...) she has many ways to totally screw him and get "even" with him and the government will totally support her. A good example of this is the wacko woman in New Mexico who a little way back filed for a restraining order against David Letterman in New York and told the judge that he was harassing her using brain waves through the TV. The judge granted the restraining order! His justification? She completed the required form. Of course, David Letterman had the money to hire an expensive lawyer in New Mexico to get the restraining order thrown out, but many men don't. And having a restraining order against you automatically causes problems for you, as a man, as far as rights are concerned. For example, having a restraining order against you automatically makes you ineligible to buy or own a gun. Imagine if the guy is a cop. Of course, the David Letterman case was all over the news, so it was hard for the judge to ignore Letterman's legal efforts to get it thrown out. If he was a regular guy, fagetabaaaaat it! Why? To ensure the wife's and children's safety against us mean, sick, mentally deranged male predators, they will always be willing to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety. And by the way, by federal law, the Violence Against Women Act, no proof is required for a woman to get a restraining order. It only takes her word that she's afraid of you. Furthermore, unless you have the money to appeal stupid judgements by stupid, feminist-brainwashed judges, you don't stand a chance in these family courts. They almost always side with the woman, no matter what, and then justify it by saying that if they err, they want to err on the side of the woman's and children's safety.

In marriage, all a woman has to do is choose a guy with decent money-making ability and she makes out no matter how the marriage goes. Why? Because in most instances, unless she agrees otherwise, she will get primary custody of your children and men get every-other weekend visiting rights. Whoo-Hooo! And if she and her new boyfriend want to move 1000 miles away, tough! (In most cases since it's not usually all that hard to justify if she's moving for better money... remember the welfare of the children is paramount). And of course, your child support obligation remains the same. Not only that, child support isn't based on the cost of child support. It's based on a percentage of the man's earnings. If I remember correctly, a ways back P-Ditty was ordered to pay his ex something like $7200 per month child support for his one child. So if a woman plays it right and has a different child by different well-heeled men, there is no limit to the monthly income she can accumulate. Certainly enough to hire help if she finds she's having trouble managing the kids. And the government's justification will always be that their actions are in the best interest of the children. And the women don't have to account in any way for how they spend the "child support". For men? How many divorces can a guy take if each time he has to give up a percentage of his income. How long does it take before he doesn't have the money to properly support himself? And by the way, there doesn't have to be children involved to be ordered to pay alimony if the ex says she can't live without it. And if she finds it's not enough, she can always go back and request that it be raised. Just try to get child support reduced when the welfare of the children are involved. The accrual of child support doesn't stop even after you lose your job or even if you go to jail (best interest of the children). In fact, since the 1970's, there's a federal law that says there is no reason whatsoever that justifies stopping or reducing child support retroactively. And that includes a man's death. Die and the money will still be taken from your estate if the children are still of age. And that's even in the case of paternity fraud. If the baby's not yours, you had better find out fast! In fact, in many cases after two years, you pay even after finding out later that the baby isn't yours, even with a DNA test. Nice, huh! The feminists have a very strong lobby. Men? Almost none because men in most instance take it like men. And women are so much better at whining.

And concerning getting lucky in picking a woman, we don't seem to get better at it because 2nd and 3rd and 4th marriages have progressively higher rates of failure than 1st marriages do.

And by the way, since divorces are filed about 70% of the time by women, don't you think this shows that women know how the laws and judges are biased in their favor? Even if we have a good marriage (she hasn't found someone she thinks is better than you yet), don't you think this affects how she acts and we can act towards our wives in any disagrement? And also, with all the situation comedies and advertisements on TV that repeatedly portray women as intelligent and us men as child-like and stupid, do you really think that after so many years of this brainwashing our women are going to show our side of a disagreement a whole lot of respect when she disagrees with us?

I say the only way to maintain a proper relationship with a woman is not to marry her or get her pregnant because at the marriage and baby point, she has the entire deck stacked in her favor, whatever the case may be. And by the way, nice guys get screwed even worse than bad boys in family court because women are least afraid of screwing nice guys. In most cases, nice guys take all the screwing "like a man". While your woman loves you now, how do you think you might be treated if she finds someone better and feels based on all the brainwashing in the media that a father contributes almost nothing to a child's well-being and she feels that having you out of the picture will make the situation between her and the new paramour better.

Sorry if I got a bit long. I could go on, but won't. A good book I recently read was by Stephen Baskerville entitled, "Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers, Marriage, and the Family". Another, shorter book by a lawyer, Jed H. Abraham is also good entitled "From Courtship to Courtroom: What Divorce Law is Doing to Marriage..."

Marriage can be good with the right woman, but they fail more than 50% of the time (bad odds) and when they do, we are easily dead meat, especially if the wife has found someone she thinks will be better in one way or other, like he would be a better father to "her" kids. I say, ignore all this at your peril.

A good website to keep up with because of all the current articles about the latest on the subject and other related subjects is glennsacks dot com.

:clean:
I can appreciate some of your views here, but it seems like you also are focused only on the worst case scenario with marriage.

You certainly can get taken for a ride through a divorce very easily, however many of these divorces are marriages that NEVER should have come about to begin with. Not to mention another large majority that don't even attempt to work through their problems that may arise. They find it easier to run from the problems and get divorced often due to its current portrayal of convenience.

I can certainly understand your point of view, but i guess i see this in a different light overall. I'm an optimistic person. I definitley take into account all the bad that can manifest itself in some marriages, however often that was created by their own doing.
 
bpmartyr

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How many American marriages end in divorce? One in two, if you believe the statistic endlessly repeated in news media reports, academic papers and campaign speeches.

The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In 2003, for example, there were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

But researchers say that this is misleading because the people who are divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and that the statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates. In fact, they say, studies find that the divorce rate in the United States has never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that, with rates now declining, it probably never will.

The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced. Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch downward.
 
DAdams91982

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Interesting debate indeed... wish I was in the rough of it last night.

My thoughts: T1 is Right!!! :D

Adams
 
Iron Warrior

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How many American marriages end in divorce? One in two, if you believe the statistic endlessly repeated in news media reports, academic papers and campaign speeches.

The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In 2003, for example, there were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

But researchers say that this is misleading because the people who are divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and that the statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates. In fact, they say, studies find that the divorce rate in the United States has never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that, with rates now declining, it probably never will.

The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced. Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch downward.
:goodpost: I was not aware of that
 

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Nobody should be fooling themselves into thinking monogamous relationships are inherently social constructions, and therein merely relational legalities; one of the fundamental differences in the pair-bonding and mating habits of humans, over most other animals, is the existence of monogamous pair-bonding. In fact, such monogamy - keeping in mind monogamy is not merely denotative of sexual preference - characterized by a high-level of investment in offspring, and the considerations of both emotional and biological stimuli, is probably one of the reasons we evolved into the apex Homo Sapiens species.

Mating has never been an exclusively biological process, and advances in comparative psychology using our closest genetic relatives - higher primates - are beginning to reveal as such. It is being noted that female chimps do not look exclusively for favorable genetic indicators for their partners; they are taking into consideration normative indicators usually ascribed to humans: trustworthiness, reciprocity, and status to name a few.

Quite simply, marriage is a rational-legal affirmation of processes innate to the human experience; extremely convoluted, and complex processes, but innate nonetheless. Such pragmatic decisions of monogamy are now having critical encounters - some irreconcilable - with aspects of the modern complex. Our advances in biology are now pressing the limits of monogamous capacities - that is, life expectancies for the bulk of our existence were less than 40; living to 89 is beyond what our evolutionary mating process is accustomed to. This difficult reconciliation process between evolutionary biology and modernity is really only exacerbated by the incredibly complex nature of the human experience as a whole: gender expectations, cultural transmission, language, social definition, ego and insecurity, sexuality, these are all things which muddy the water further.

At times we like to throw neat little bows on things, and call them our own; marriage is exemplary of this trait. Such lifelong monogamy is indicative of human sexual patterns from jump street.
You're a teacher? Wow, if you hadn't told me, I never would have guessed! Geeeez! Could you translate all that into English? And how all that supports or refutes the argument presently on the table? Likewise in English?

Sounds like you're trying to say that monogamy isn't natural and as a result, hard to maintain. But I'm not sure. It seems that you're blaming cheating on longer life expectancies. Ok. So? What about all the marriages that break up after only one or two or three or five or seven years. What percentage of marriages go longer than that?

No, I think the primary motivator of broken marriages is the financial support the government promises women who feel they aren't getting everything they think they should be getting out of marriage and all the ways the media teaches women that they should be unhappy because they're not getting more. This explains why divorces are filed by men only about 30% of the time. For instance, how often have we heard that men still don't contribute enough around the house. So now your woman is pissed when before she wasn't. You selfish, insensitive man! Your work and sacrifice (you're staying at a job you may hate because the money supports the family or your job may be more dangerous because it pays better than your alternative) outside the home doesn't count, or hardly at all. And what about the survey every year that puts a price tag on women's work at home, alleging what she's really worth. This year I believe it was about $117k. So now her housework and everything she does around the home all together is worth a whole lot more than your job (in most cases), you lazy, unintelligent, non-goal-driven man! And she doesn't get paid a penny for her work! All these things and more add up, day after day, teaching women to be unhappy with us. And no matter how wonderful your wife is now, how many can totally ignore them year after year after year after year after year after year? Even a deaf, blind robot would eventually give in after hearing this garbage so often for so long.

And when the wife finally decides she's had enough of her current situation, the government will virtually guarantee that she gets the kids, the house, the car, and a decent percentage of our income, and the income doesn't stop after she marries the next guy. What a deal! (Alimony will stop, but child support won't). Then all she has to do is go in and say that the child support now needs raising, for the good of the children. And when she moves in with the new guy, wow! Now she's really hit the financial jackpot while you're struggling to survive.

And finally, how attractive are you going to be to the next woman you find attractive if you're saddled with a really big child support bill every month, month after month?

Think it can't happen to you because you're very involved in your kids' upbringing? Wrong! The more you do as a result of her harping, the more threatened she will feel and the more her lawyer will feel that you are a threat to her getting full custody of the children. So along comes the restraining order which immediately kicks you out of the house and bars you from seeing or even contacting her and your kids. No, you won't go to jail because they have no proof of your domestic violence, but you will if you violate the restraining order in any way. Recently there was a case where a guy in jail had his sentence extended because the woman who had a restraining order against him visited him in jail and he talked to her against the orders of the restraining order.

I know, I know. It'll never happen to us. Last I heard, thousands upon thousands of these restraining orders are issued every year. They're big business for the lawyers and judges and government. The more restraining orders they issue, the more action they get in the courtroom and the more money they all make. And in most cases, you will be forced to pay the entire bill, including hers. Only we fathers and husbands lose in all this. Why? Because most men think it will never happen to them and the other guy probably deserved what he got. The nicer you are, the more likely you are to get it put to you, in spades! Hard to believe? That's why it all continues, year after year after year. More and more guys are getting the message, but still, many are not. And the more that are getting the message and taking evasive action, the more the government is changing the laws to compensate and catch even the guys taking these evasive actions. A week or two ago, the New Jersey Supreme Court declared that living together is not a requirement for a woman to get palimony (alimony for singles) upon a couple breaking up. Sound good to you? Sound like the courts are using common sense in their rulings? That women are equal to men in the eyes of the law? That women can do anything a man can do, only better?

I think a lot of guys here need to educate themselves on what's really going on these days before making a decision on how to run their lives from here on. The two books and website I previously recommended would be a good starting point. Anything you feel is so crazy to be unbelievable, check it out and confirm it's truth or not.
:cheers:
 
Mulletsoldier

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Sorry dude, I'll break it down slightly.

The post was meant to say that monogamy is an evolutionary response to the need for survival and proliferation. Humans are different from many other animals in that we are, and historically have been, at least semi-monogamous creatures.

The point was being thrown around that marriage is only a contemporary social construction; while the label may be, the precedent is not. I was pointing out that high investment in monogamous pair bonds was likely one of the reasons we became the apex Homo Sapiens species.

Then I was saying that such evolutionary-biological processes are now slamming full tilt into modern social constructions like gender roles and expectations, sexuality, language, media, and other things which blur the lines of neural-biological attraction; this, combined with longer life expectancies, makes monogamy difficult.

Financial issues may be the precipice from which marriages fall, but it is not what pushes them off. Not by any means.

You're a teacher? Wow, if you hadn't told me, I never would have guessed! Geeeez! Could you translate all that into English? And how all that supports or refutes the argument presently on the table? Likewise in English?

Sounds like you're trying to say that monogamy isn't natural and as a result, hard to maintain. But I'm not sure. It seems that you're blaming cheating on longer life expectancies. Ok. So? What about all the marriages that break up after only one or two or three or five or seven years. What percentage of marriages go longer than that?

No, I think the primary motivator of broken marriages is the financial support the government promises women who feel they aren't getting everything they think they should be getting out of marriage and all the ways the media teaches women that they should be unhappy because they're not getting more. This explains why divorces are filed by men only about 30% of the time. For instance, how often have we heard that men still don't contribute enough around the house. So now your woman is pissed when before she wasn't. You selfish, insensitive man! Your work and sacrifice (you're staying at a job you may hate because the money supports the family or your job may be more dangerous because it pays better than your alternative) outside the home doesn't count, or hardly at all. And what about the survey every year that puts a price tag on women's work at home, alleging what she's really worth. This year I believe it was about $117k. So now her housework and everything she does around the home all together is worth a whole lot more than your job (in most cases), you lazy, unintelligent, non-goal-driven man! And she doesn't get paid a penny for her work! All these things and more add up, day after day, teaching women to be unhappy with us. And no matter how wonderful your wife is now, how many can totally ignore them year after year after year after year after year after year? Even a deaf, blind robot would eventually give in after hearing this garbage so often for so long.

And when the wife finally decides she's had enough of her current situation, the government will virtually guarantee that she gets the kids, the house, the car, and a decent percentage of our income, and the income doesn't stop after she marries the next guy. What a deal! (Alimony will stop, but child support won't). Then all she has to do is go in and say that the child support now needs raising, for the good of the children. And when she moves in with the new guy, wow! Now she's really hit the financial jackpot while you're struggling to survive.

And finally, how attractive are you going to be to the next woman you find attractive if you're saddled with a really big child support bill every month, month after month?

Think it can't happen to you because you're very involved in your kids' upbringing? Wrong! The more you do as a result of her harping, the more threatened she will feel and the more her lawyer will feel that you are a threat to her getting full custody of the children. So along comes the restraining order which immediately kicks you out of the house and bars you from seeing or even contacting her and your kids. No, you won't go to jail because they have no proof of your domestic violence, but you will if you violate the restraining order in any way. Recently there was a case where a guy in jail had his sentence extended because the woman who had a restraining order against him visited him in jail and he talked to her against the orders of the restraining order.

I know, I know. It'll never happen to us. Last I heard, thousands upon thousands of these restraining orders are issued every year. They're big business for the lawyers and judges and government. The more restraining orders they issue, the more action they get in the courtroom and the more money they all make. And in most cases, you will be forced to pay the entire bill, including hers. Only we fathers and husbands lose in all this. Why? Because most men think it will never happen to them and the other guy probably deserved what he got. The nicer you are, the more likely you are to get it put to you, in spades! Hard to believe? That's why it all continues, year after year after year. More and more guys are getting the message, but still, many are not. And the more that are getting the message and taking evasive action, the more the government is changing the laws to compensate and catch even the guys taking these evasive actions. A week or two ago, the New Jersey Supreme Court declared that living together is not a requirement for a woman to get palimony (alimony for singles) upon a couple breaking up. Sound good to you? Sound like the courts are using common sense in their rulings? That women are equal to men in the eyes of the law? That women can do anything a man can do, only better?

I think a lot of guys here need to educate themselves on what's really going on these days before making a decision on how to run their lives from here on. The two books and website I previously recommended would be a good starting point. Anything you feel is so crazy to be unbelievable, check it out and confirm it's truth or not.
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DAdams91982

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I think a lot of guys here need to educate themselves on what's really going on these days before making a decision on how to run their lives from here on. The two books and website I previously recommended would be a good starting point. Anything you feel is so crazy to be unbelievable, check it out and confirm it's truth or not.
:clean:
I dont know how you didnt understand Mullets post.

And now we need education, and books on how to fall in love? Or how I (Not You) should perceive a lifelong monogamous commitment? Marriage has been around since even prior to the Mayan/Aztec era (BCE), and there weren't books and websites denoting divorce and the consequences of marriage then.

Thank God we live in a free society were we get to pick and choose how we do wish to live our lives.

Adams
 

Dittohd

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How many American marriages end in divorce? One in two, if you believe the statistic endlessly repeated in news media reports, academic papers and campaign speeches.

The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In 2003, for example, there were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

But researchers say that this is misleading because the people who are divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and that the statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates. In fact, they say, studies find that the divorce rate in the United States has never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that, with rates now declining, it probably never will.

The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced. Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch downward.
You went through all that to prove that the divorce rate may not be over 50% but "only" 41%? And you feel that that changes everything? Anything?

OK. Let's assume you're right. So? And what is being left out and not being shown of the 41% statistic because the researcher you quote also has an agenda? Is there really much of a difference between 50% and 41% in this case?
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Trauma1

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I dont know how you didnt understand Mullets post.

And now we need education, and books on how to fall in love? Or how I (Not You) should perceive a lifelong monogamous commitment? Marriage has been around since even prior to the Mayan/Aztec era (BCE), and there weren't books and websites denoting divorce and the consequences of marriage then.

Thank God we live in a free society were we get to pick and choose how we do wish to live our lives.

Adams
Amen sir!

I'm seriously floored by some of the views of marriage that have been portrayed in this thread.
 

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I dont know how you didnt understand Mullets post.

And now we need education, and books on how to fall in love?

Adams
Who said that these books and website I suggested would teach you or anyone else how to fall in love? Now we're descending into insults instead of proving or disproving the truth of what I'm saying?

Like a parachute, a mind works best when it's open. If you don't wish to check out the two books and website I suggested, don't. Keep in mind, though, that the nice guys with their heads in the sand are the ones who get screwed the worst and the most often, time after time.
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DAdams91982

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You went through all that to prove that the divorce rate may not be over 50% but "only" 41%? And you feel that that changes everything? Anything?

OK. Let's assume you're right. So? And what is being left out and not being shown of the 41% statistic because the researcher you quote also has an agenda? Is there really much of a difference between 50% and 41% in this case?
:clean:
41% compared to 50% is a HUGE difference when placed on the scale we are comparing this to. That is 18 less divorces per 100.

Adams
 
DAdams91982

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Who said that these books and website would teach you or anyone else how to fall in love? Now we're descending into insults instead of proving or disproving the truth of what I'm saying?

Like a parachute, a mind works best when it's open. If you don't wish to check out the two books and website I suggested, don't.
:clean:
PLEASE stop posting that d@mn icon at the end of each post.

I am not trying to insult you in the least. I was stating the institution of marriage has been around longer than just today. Just because some have a rough time marriage, does not mean it is failing. That may be a life experience one needs to go through to grow up in fact. Just seems a relative bashing of marriage instead of a "Parachute open" discussion of the sanctity of marriage itself.

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Amen sir!

I'm seriously floored by some of the views of marriage that have been portrayed in this thread.
It seems you are missing the point also. The strange views that you are referring to are not of marriage but of divorce. Marriage was fine until the government and radical feminists and drive-by media started doing everything in their power to encourage divorce.
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41% compared to 50% is a HUGE difference when placed on the scale we are comparing this to. That is 18 less divorces per 100.

...and there weren't books and websites denoting divorce and the consequences of marriage then.

Adams
Not if you are one of the 41 out of 100.

Of course there weren't books and websites denoting divorce and the consequences of marriage then. Why would there be? They didn't have a nanny state with pervasive anti-male laws in those days I strongly suspect. Today, marriage and divorce are a whole different ballgame than it was in those days.

By the way, like this icon better?
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DAdams91982

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Not if you are one of the 41 out of 100.

By the way, like this icon better?
:cheers:
Much better... just the sheer size of the icon was to much.

I agree, it would suck to divorce, just the numbers are not accurate. I will say the 50% is skewed, well because of my views, you will say something lower is skewed, because of your views.

Remember 87% of statistics are made up on the spot. :D

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Mulletsoldier

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It seems you are missing the point also. The strange views that you are referring to are not of marriage but of divorce. Marriage was fine until the government and radical feminists and drive-by media started doing everything in their power to encourage divorce.
:clean:
The feminist emancipation movement started in earnest during the 1970's was neither particularly radical, or out of hand in its approach. The taboo nature of divorce - and feminine sexual freedom as a whole - beginning with the Victorian Era and lessening slightly about that period was more about restoring equality as opposed to 'screwing guys' over. Even to mention separation from an unhappy marriage was verbohden for females previously.

Because the judicial system horribly destroyed the sentiment, does not mean it was radical.
 

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The feminist emancipation movement started in earnest during the 1970's was neither particularly radical, or out of hand in its approach. The taboo nature of divorce - and feminine sexual freedom as a whole - beginning with the Victorian Era and lessening slightly about that period was more about restoring equality as opposed to 'screwing guys' over. Even to mention separation from an unhappy marriage was verbohden for females previously.

Because the judicial system horribly destroyed the sentiment, does not mean it was radical.
No matter what the feminists wanted or said they wanted in the beginning, it's certainly radical today. The feminists of today don't want equality (do you believe everything you hear? It's a common tactic in war to feed the enemy incorrect information to throw them off or lull them into a false sense of security), they want equality where it benefits them and superiority wherever they can get it.

I can name many places where women now have superior rights to us men but can't think of one where we men have superior rights to women.

Can you?
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Mulletsoldier

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No matter what the feminists wanted or said they wanted in the beginning, it's certainly radical today. The feminists of today don't want equality (do you believe everything you hear? It's a common tactic in war to feed the enemy incorrect information to throw them off or lull them into a false sense of security), they want equality where it benefits them and superiority wherever they can get it.
What you have expressed is very detached from the reality of the Feminist movement. Some research into the field would serve you well; that particular strain of social sciences has much to teach. I suggest you learn!

I can name many places where women now have superior rights to us men but can't think of one where we men have superior rights to women.


You honestly cannot think of one instance where men have superior rights over women? You may not be looking hard enough, here are a few points of consideration:

We operate in a capital system based on patriarchy. Property rights were primarily male; Judeo-Christian society as a whole is patriarchal.

1/4 women have experienced some form of sexual assault in their life.

Men have a far greater share of controlling interests in the world's largest TNC/NGOs/Fortune 500.

The top 5% of wage-earners are primarily male.

Political representation is yet primarily male.

Women are still perpetually objectified in the media (Killing Me Softly is a great documentary). This affects both males and females by perpetuating ignorant social attitudes.

Women comprise the majority percentage of the bottom 5% of wage-earners.

Women experience higher rates of AIDS in developing nations; far higher.

Women are subject to much higher rates of domestic violence. Both here and abroad.

Sexual mutilation (removing of labia and clitoris) is common practice in tribal communities. Castration, not so much.

I've had this same argument recently, and it went much as this one is turning out to be. A fiery sentiment about women's advantages, and then no evidence aside from unfair alimony settlements, and a few other legal issues. One needs to separate the ability to insist in certain bargaining situations, and power dynamics as a whole.

This is merely the tip of the iceberg, as I did not want to derail the thread further by going into an in-depth discussion of hegemonic masculinity. It's neither relevant to the discussion at hand, nor something I feel you would accept.
 
Trauma1

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It seems you are missing the point also. The strange views that you are referring to are not of marriage but of divorce. Marriage was fine until the government and radical feminists and drive-by media started doing everything in their power to encourage divorce.
:cheers:
What in the h*ll are you talking about? I'm not missing any point at all here. If anything you're fixated on divorce yourself. There has been A LOT more discussed than specifically 'divorce' in this thread. So in other words, my statement stands as it was intended.
 
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Dittohd

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Thank God we live in a free society were we get to pick and choose how we do wish to live our lives.

Adams
Only if we totally avoid family / divorce court. Once we enter that realm, in most cases, we become our ex-wife's and the government's slave, unless we're rich and know how to quickly replace the money we need to properly defend ourselves utilizing a quality lawyer all the way to a proper ending when the other side has frozen all our assets "for the protection of our children" pending asset dispersement during the divorce proceedings. And this includes the cost and time involved for appeals if necessary.
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