Hello all,
I used to post here quite a bit several years ago. It was a great forum, with lots of good guys. I was pretty big into the lifting scene back then.
Today, I've finished about 200 semester units of undergraduate education (BS in Biology, and about 80 additional credits in various crap) and I'm about to go into my 4th year of medical school. So, I'm about 10 years in 0_0 And, my God, do I ever want it to be over. Unfortunately, I've got 1yr of medical school and at least 3 years of residency left. Meh, whatever.
Anyway, for some strange reason, I felt like very briefly sharing my opinion on the safety of performance enhancing drugs with a simple arbitrary example. I'm not here to judge, or to nanny, but simply enlighten those who are more concerned about their overall level of health than they are their physique.
In short, here is what I've learned in a single sentence: Ignorance is bliss, but most of that stuff is, in fact, pretty damn bad for you.
Most people have absolutely no idea about the intricacies of human physiology and the clinical picture that is painted with changes in that physiology. And, understandably, people look for "studies" to prove bad side effects. Unfortunately, in the realm of peer reviewed scientific research there is actually far, far, far, far, far more that we have not produced well-designed studies for than what we have. And, unfortunately, people seem to feel that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Keep in mind that researchers absolutely run away scared from trials that might potential harm the participants, so many of the questions you have will likely never been answered via clinical trials.
I'll also say this: just because your physician may not be aware that a Creatine supplement might give the false appearance of failing kidneys, or that protein supplements are simply milk products (although most up-and-coming physicians are well aware of this stuff) doesn't mean they can't look at the bigger clinical picture and accurately tell you that you're in trouble.
Just for kicks, I'm going to throw out an example. I don't know what the prevailing wisdom is on the topic these days, but lets talk HGH for a second. When I was on these forums way back when, I remember people touting its safety. I even remember some people stating something to the effect of, "the only proven effect is that exogenous hgh in moderate doses might enlarge your heart a little, and we're not even sure if that's bad." Here is the reality from the perspective of a medical mind:
Lets just pick two of the known side effects and take them to their clinical conclusion (not necessarily to happen in a persons life and complicated by a great many factors, but still a strong and undeniable risk):
1. Insulin resistance
2. Cardiomegaly (enlarge heart)
First, lets talk insulin resistance. In short, this means increased blood glucose levels. Hyperglycemia, as it's called, will inevitably do a few things. Most talked about among those is non-enzymatic glycosylation of tissues; in other words, the glucose in the blood will attach itself to stuff. We see this primarily in your blood vessels. This means that those vessels will harden, lose their compliance, and even lose luminal diameter (reduce flow). Reduced flow and decreased compliance means two significant things for people: 1. tissue ischemia (less nutrients), and 2. increased blood pressure. The tissue ischemia has obvious effects. Its means that important organs, such as the heart, kidneys, and brain will slowly die. It also means that other parts of your body will die. For example, the leading cause of limb amputation in the US is diabetes induced (from insulin resistance and the consequential hyperglycemia). The kidneys and heart are where we see a lot of the clinical manifestations of diabetes. The poor perfusion of tissues leads to tissue death. From this you often get sub-clinical myocardial infarctions (heart attacks), and continuously destroy the kidney (a major detoxifier, fluid and electrolyte balancer, and even endocrine organ that is essential to life). The subclinical myocardial infarctions can lead to decreased cardiac contractility, impaired filling, and ultimately to stuff like congestive heart failure where increased fluid volume that was once a reflexive mechanism to increase cardiac output becomes overwhelmed and the tissue stretches to the point where forward flow to the body is insufficient, and flow out of the right side of your heart becomes backed up, leading to massive swelling of your extremities, and more significantly edema (swelling) of your pulmonary vasculature--effectively drowning yourself in your own fluids. Also note that a stretched hear is likely to have electrical conduction abnormalities, predisposing one to dangerous arrythmias, some of which can cause instant death. This would also be complicated by the fact that you'll be losing important proteins in your urine due to the diabetic nephropathy that has destroyed your kidneys to the point that they no longer filter effectively. Not to mention the acid-base and volume disturbances.
Now, clearly we could write volumes of text on the topic. But, lets move on to point #2: cardiomegaly.
Cardiomegaly IS bad. No if's, and's, or but's. As the ventricular tissue hypertrophies its compliance decreases. So, when the atria pump blood into the ventricles the non-compliant ventricle will cause backward fluid volume overload. Often stretching out the atria. This can cause cardiac dysrythmias, like atrial fibrillation which predisposes people to conditions like stroke and a whole host of other conditions. In addition, the forward cardiac output becomes compromised. This leads to poor perfusion of tissues, including heart tissue. This, will also likely be associated with high blood pressure. The combination of high blood pressure and poor perfusion to tissue such as the kidney is horrific and will compound the acceleration toward kidney failure. To structures like the brain, it will further pre-dispose to hemorrhagic stroke (horrible), dementias, and more. To the heart, it will lead to compromised perfusion, and possible subclinical myocardial infarction. Again, this will transition you out of a hypertrophic cardiomegaly into a dilated cardiomegaly and eventually congestive heart failure.
Not to mention, the overall state of your body will be pro-inflammatory and therefore pro-thrombogenic with both of these conditions, and make it more likely for a full on occlusive myocardial infarction where a large segment of your heart is no longer perfused because a huge, clotted plaque is clogging up the pipes. And, those types of MI's (the kind that people notice they have) are pretty darn dangerous.
I can tell you all of this with certainty based on my clinical and physiologic knowledge, and there is no need to have studies that may or may not exist to prove every little detail.
Blood glucose that's a little too high is a bad thing. Blood pressure that's a little too high is a bad thing. Basically, anything that's not exactly how nature intended it is likely to be a bad thing. Too much oxygen, too much free water, etc.
Now, a person missing limbs, in congestive heart failure, and/or renal failure is frankly miserable. I see it every day, and its a pitiful existence. And, this is really just the start of the "possibilities". Its true that these symptoms are not guaranteed in everyone, and many people will probably live their lives without seeing any of this. But, how much do you want to roll the dice?
So, what do I recommend? Eat well, exercise, and just do it as natural as possible. You can still get big and be strong. But, most importantly, you'll be healthy.
If you insist on running cycles, maybe keep it simple with something like testosterone at a conservative dose and always monitor your blood pressure, liver function, and lipid profile. Keep in mind stuff like, while 139/79 is technically still "pre-hypertension", your body really wants to be closer to 115/70 and that's still significantly above a healthy range, and still likely to contribute to some unfortunate physiologic reactive mechanisms. Pre-hypertension is a stupid label. What matters is action-reaction, and elevated blood pressure usually leads to bad things for most people in the long term. Combine that with an LDL of 170 and HDL of 30, and you're just asking for a heart attack if you keep that up.
I mean, you'll still kill yourself faster abusing tyelenol, ibuprofen, etc. But, that's another discussion. My point is to enlighten those who are legitimately concerned for their health and are considering the use of performance enhancing drugs.
Really, it would take far too much time and energy to make a comprehensive post. But, I just wanted to give you all some food for thought. If big muscles are your priority, so be it. But, if your health takes higher priority than your muscles, please consider what I say and step out of the bliss of ignorance and into the security of reality.
I'll check in every now and then to see if I can answer questions. This was all off of the top of my head, so I hope there weren't any inaccuracies or ridiculous typos
I used to post here quite a bit several years ago. It was a great forum, with lots of good guys. I was pretty big into the lifting scene back then.
Today, I've finished about 200 semester units of undergraduate education (BS in Biology, and about 80 additional credits in various crap) and I'm about to go into my 4th year of medical school. So, I'm about 10 years in 0_0 And, my God, do I ever want it to be over. Unfortunately, I've got 1yr of medical school and at least 3 years of residency left. Meh, whatever.
Anyway, for some strange reason, I felt like very briefly sharing my opinion on the safety of performance enhancing drugs with a simple arbitrary example. I'm not here to judge, or to nanny, but simply enlighten those who are more concerned about their overall level of health than they are their physique.
In short, here is what I've learned in a single sentence: Ignorance is bliss, but most of that stuff is, in fact, pretty damn bad for you.
Most people have absolutely no idea about the intricacies of human physiology and the clinical picture that is painted with changes in that physiology. And, understandably, people look for "studies" to prove bad side effects. Unfortunately, in the realm of peer reviewed scientific research there is actually far, far, far, far, far more that we have not produced well-designed studies for than what we have. And, unfortunately, people seem to feel that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Keep in mind that researchers absolutely run away scared from trials that might potential harm the participants, so many of the questions you have will likely never been answered via clinical trials.
I'll also say this: just because your physician may not be aware that a Creatine supplement might give the false appearance of failing kidneys, or that protein supplements are simply milk products (although most up-and-coming physicians are well aware of this stuff) doesn't mean they can't look at the bigger clinical picture and accurately tell you that you're in trouble.
Just for kicks, I'm going to throw out an example. I don't know what the prevailing wisdom is on the topic these days, but lets talk HGH for a second. When I was on these forums way back when, I remember people touting its safety. I even remember some people stating something to the effect of, "the only proven effect is that exogenous hgh in moderate doses might enlarge your heart a little, and we're not even sure if that's bad." Here is the reality from the perspective of a medical mind:
Lets just pick two of the known side effects and take them to their clinical conclusion (not necessarily to happen in a persons life and complicated by a great many factors, but still a strong and undeniable risk):
1. Insulin resistance
2. Cardiomegaly (enlarge heart)
First, lets talk insulin resistance. In short, this means increased blood glucose levels. Hyperglycemia, as it's called, will inevitably do a few things. Most talked about among those is non-enzymatic glycosylation of tissues; in other words, the glucose in the blood will attach itself to stuff. We see this primarily in your blood vessels. This means that those vessels will harden, lose their compliance, and even lose luminal diameter (reduce flow). Reduced flow and decreased compliance means two significant things for people: 1. tissue ischemia (less nutrients), and 2. increased blood pressure. The tissue ischemia has obvious effects. Its means that important organs, such as the heart, kidneys, and brain will slowly die. It also means that other parts of your body will die. For example, the leading cause of limb amputation in the US is diabetes induced (from insulin resistance and the consequential hyperglycemia). The kidneys and heart are where we see a lot of the clinical manifestations of diabetes. The poor perfusion of tissues leads to tissue death. From this you often get sub-clinical myocardial infarctions (heart attacks), and continuously destroy the kidney (a major detoxifier, fluid and electrolyte balancer, and even endocrine organ that is essential to life). The subclinical myocardial infarctions can lead to decreased cardiac contractility, impaired filling, and ultimately to stuff like congestive heart failure where increased fluid volume that was once a reflexive mechanism to increase cardiac output becomes overwhelmed and the tissue stretches to the point where forward flow to the body is insufficient, and flow out of the right side of your heart becomes backed up, leading to massive swelling of your extremities, and more significantly edema (swelling) of your pulmonary vasculature--effectively drowning yourself in your own fluids. Also note that a stretched hear is likely to have electrical conduction abnormalities, predisposing one to dangerous arrythmias, some of which can cause instant death. This would also be complicated by the fact that you'll be losing important proteins in your urine due to the diabetic nephropathy that has destroyed your kidneys to the point that they no longer filter effectively. Not to mention the acid-base and volume disturbances.
Now, clearly we could write volumes of text on the topic. But, lets move on to point #2: cardiomegaly.
Cardiomegaly IS bad. No if's, and's, or but's. As the ventricular tissue hypertrophies its compliance decreases. So, when the atria pump blood into the ventricles the non-compliant ventricle will cause backward fluid volume overload. Often stretching out the atria. This can cause cardiac dysrythmias, like atrial fibrillation which predisposes people to conditions like stroke and a whole host of other conditions. In addition, the forward cardiac output becomes compromised. This leads to poor perfusion of tissues, including heart tissue. This, will also likely be associated with high blood pressure. The combination of high blood pressure and poor perfusion to tissue such as the kidney is horrific and will compound the acceleration toward kidney failure. To structures like the brain, it will further pre-dispose to hemorrhagic stroke (horrible), dementias, and more. To the heart, it will lead to compromised perfusion, and possible subclinical myocardial infarction. Again, this will transition you out of a hypertrophic cardiomegaly into a dilated cardiomegaly and eventually congestive heart failure.
Not to mention, the overall state of your body will be pro-inflammatory and therefore pro-thrombogenic with both of these conditions, and make it more likely for a full on occlusive myocardial infarction where a large segment of your heart is no longer perfused because a huge, clotted plaque is clogging up the pipes. And, those types of MI's (the kind that people notice they have) are pretty darn dangerous.
I can tell you all of this with certainty based on my clinical and physiologic knowledge, and there is no need to have studies that may or may not exist to prove every little detail.
Blood glucose that's a little too high is a bad thing. Blood pressure that's a little too high is a bad thing. Basically, anything that's not exactly how nature intended it is likely to be a bad thing. Too much oxygen, too much free water, etc.
Now, a person missing limbs, in congestive heart failure, and/or renal failure is frankly miserable. I see it every day, and its a pitiful existence. And, this is really just the start of the "possibilities". Its true that these symptoms are not guaranteed in everyone, and many people will probably live their lives without seeing any of this. But, how much do you want to roll the dice?
So, what do I recommend? Eat well, exercise, and just do it as natural as possible. You can still get big and be strong. But, most importantly, you'll be healthy.
If you insist on running cycles, maybe keep it simple with something like testosterone at a conservative dose and always monitor your blood pressure, liver function, and lipid profile. Keep in mind stuff like, while 139/79 is technically still "pre-hypertension", your body really wants to be closer to 115/70 and that's still significantly above a healthy range, and still likely to contribute to some unfortunate physiologic reactive mechanisms. Pre-hypertension is a stupid label. What matters is action-reaction, and elevated blood pressure usually leads to bad things for most people in the long term. Combine that with an LDL of 170 and HDL of 30, and you're just asking for a heart attack if you keep that up.
I mean, you'll still kill yourself faster abusing tyelenol, ibuprofen, etc. But, that's another discussion. My point is to enlighten those who are legitimately concerned for their health and are considering the use of performance enhancing drugs.
Really, it would take far too much time and energy to make a comprehensive post. But, I just wanted to give you all some food for thought. If big muscles are your priority, so be it. But, if your health takes higher priority than your muscles, please consider what I say and step out of the bliss of ignorance and into the security of reality.
I'll check in every now and then to see if I can answer questions. This was all off of the top of my head, so I hope there weren't any inaccuracies or ridiculous typos