Least suppressive SARM or PH

[sespress]

Yates is full of the knowledge

Yeah dude.

 

[sespress]

Since SGT derivatives are dry, and run a greater risk of estrogen rebound afterwards, would a wet hormone on cycle counteract that? For example, if someone was taking Epi-Andro and they added 4 Andro. The Epi-Andro should counter any on-cycle estrogen issues due to being dry and 4 being mild, and the 4 should lower the chance of rebound since it provided a source of (or conversion to) estrogen on-cycle, rather than outright lowering estrogen if Epi-Andro was ran solo? I just used those compounds as an easy example for my question. Am I right or way off in my assumption?

Man if I had read a bit further in before posting. I just popped that question on Yates myself. And i also didn't see that he was talking about epistane not Epi-Andro (I'm on 4-andro/Epi-Andro). But your theoretical question is my actual stack right now.

Although I'm throwing in tr3st for the last month and not sure if I can ditch the 4-Andro or reduce it. I think (emphasis) they aromatize into different estrogen by products. Not sure what the implications of that are at all, just keeping a variety of ai and SERM products handy (and some prami in the bank).

 

[yates84]

Since SGT derivatives are dry, and run a greater risk of estrogen rebound afterwards, would a wet hormone on cycle counteract that? For example, if someone was taking Epi-Andro and they added 4 Andro. The Epi-Andro should counter any on-cycle estrogen issues due to being dry and 4 being mild, and the 4 should lower the chance of rebound since it provided a source of (or conversion to) estrogen on-cycle, rather than outright lowering estrogen if Epi-Andro was ran solo? I just used those compounds as an easy example for my question. Am I right or way off in my assumption?

Not really. There are 2 different actions going on here. Dht actually competes with estrogen at the receptor, this is what makes it "dry" or "anti estrogenic". Once the dht is gone that estrogen has full use of those receptors again. My view is a wet compound that causes more circulating estrogen will actually increase your chance of rebound since you will have more circulating estrogen to occupy those nice new available receptors.

 

[sespress]

Not really. There are 2 different actions going on here. Dht actually competes with estrogen at the receptor, this is what makes it "dry" or "anti estrogenic". Once the dht is gone that estrogen has full use of those receptors again. My view is a wet compound that causes more circulating estrogen will actually increase your chance of rebound since you will have more circulating estrogen to occupy those nice new available receptors.

So people are going to likely going to be running a test base that is wet along side these dry compounds to try to stop lethargy. So what is the best bet then? Run a strong AI to prevent the test base from adding to the estrogen levels or....?

 

[Bunshichi]

Just trying to keep estrogen levels normal or slightly above is the best bet.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Not an SHBG expert. It binds *all* sex hormones - including Estrogen. Lower equals more Free T, but also E. I think the T:E Ratio matters more though, so SHBG not binding some Estrogen isn't a biggie. I would however, not want to try to manipulate SHBG during PCT - just my opinion.

 

[sespress]

Just trying to keep estrogen levels normal or slightly above is the best bet.

Right but how? There's a plethora of AI's out there, and dosing is all up to the user. It'd be nice if there was a formula but... What do you do? Just get bloods done during the cycle and try to adjust accordingly?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Right but how? There's a plethora of AI's out there, and dosing is all up to the user. It'd be nice if there was a formula but... What do you do? Just get bloods done during the cycle and try to adjust accordingly?

Yes, in a perfect world. But we know Mid-Cycle bloods are more rare than any bloods at all. Just have Aromasin on hand, and use it when you notice "issues". Estrogen is so important to even the male body - for health, libido, and LBM accrual - that I tremble at people wanting to pre-emptively shove it in the basement like an unwanted step-child.

 

[sespress]

Yes, in a perfect world. But we know Mid-Cycle bloods are more rare than any bloods at all. Just have Aromasin on hand, and use it when you notice "issues". Estrogen is so important to even the male body - for health, libido, and LBM accrual - that I tremble at people wanting to pre-emptively shove it in the basement like an unwanted step-child.

Exactly. I happen to be having some of said issues. I got about half way through my 4-Andro/Epi-Andro cycle and had started getting some sensations and such...I don't need to go into it. Anyways I could do a number of things. There Tr3st as a base instead of 4-andro (experimenting wth cutting down on the 4 and up on the tr3st right now). There's arimidex (no aromasin), I've got Clom and Nolva too. I mean I could even take a small dose of the SERM and cut the AI in half and see how that goes. As of today the 4 is almost cut out and the Tr3st is in its place. I've been taking a dose of arimidex in the evening but if I don't take anything in the AM I feel the gyno sides again halfway through the day, so I drop 25mg of Clom. No sides at all now. But I mean that's no surprise as I'm attacking from two angles. Maybe this half way approach is good, still leaving some E around.

I'm about to find out tomorrow if the Trest being the only aromatizing compound makes any difference and I'll just take the Clom with me to work. I mean screw it as I'm typing this I'll just bite the bullet and go get the blood work done. I've never had to deal with this before so I'm probably over thinking it.

Well your opinion is still welcome on my ad hoc plan. I'm sure it could use adjustment, haha.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Never used Trest, but from what I've read, it's even more of a worry for Estrogen sides.

 

[yates84]

Never used Trest, but from what I've read, it's even more of a worry for Estrogen sides.

Methyl estrogen, fun stuff.

 

[mmorso]

Methyl estrogen, fun stuff.

Yeah man what exactly is methyl estrogen? Is it harder to control than other forms of E?

I've read dbol aromatizes into it and that it's a volatile form but have no idea what that sh1t means...

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Yeah man what exactly is methyl estrogen? Is it harder to control than other forms of E?

I've read dbol aromatizes into it and that it's a volatile form but have no idea what that sh1t means...

Again, I won't touch the stuff (Trest), but I believe its this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylestradiol

Yates can correct if needed.

 

[mmorso]

That's interesting... they call it semisynthetic.. how can something aromatize by natural processes into a synthetic form... that's fascinating actually

 

[Bunshichi]

When the substrate is not natural but can be metabolized by natural ways the substrate can somwtimes be called semisynthetic.
In the end its the natural product but with a synthetic alteration.

 

[csline]

Run a 1+4 andro stack at 400/300 or 300/200mg per day, run it for 6, 7, or 8 weeks (andro's need a bit of time to really start working), get a pharmacy grade PCT like Clomid/nolva....and you will be very, very happy.

 

[sespress]

Again, I won't touch the stuff (Trest), but I believe its this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylestradiol

Yates can correct if needed.

So being as how it is created through normal aromatizing an AI would likely still stop it from forming. Right? I've gone through so many boards and other sites, I see that there's some nasty sides from methyl estrogen. But either a dose of a strong AI and/or some of a SERM should stop it from really doing much of anything?

I'm becoming more and more turned off by wet compounds anyways, I've just finished reading like a5 page forum posting where people were dudes sounded like they'd come to blows over what this stuff was, how to counteract it, etc.. I'll probably drop it out, is not like I'm going to lose sleep over buying the bottle and not taking the whole thing. seems like any need to adjust your stack with so many added chemicals just to cover up for one ph is probably just not healthy.

 

[yates84]

So being as how it is created through normal aromatizing an AI would likely still stop it from forming. Right? I've gone through so many boards and other sites, I see that there's some nasty sides from methyl estrogen. But either a dose of a strong AI and/or some of a SERM should stop it from really doing much of anything?

I'm becoming more and more turned off by wet compounds anyways, I've just finished reading like a5 page forum posting where people were dudes sounded like they'd come to blows over what this stuff was, how to counteract it, etc.. I'll probably drop it out, is not like I'm going to lose sleep over buying the bottle and not taking the whole thing. seems like any need to adjust your stack with so many added chemicals just to cover up for one ph is probably just not healthy.

Have exemestane and nolva on hand and you're gtg. I've ran trest 5 times now and have gone as high as 200mg Ed with it. Tried only formastane the first run and estro sides ate me up! Last time at 200mg Ed of trest and just 12.5mg of exem eod and 10mg of nolva eod I was gtg. Take it easy on the dosing and work up slow. Most users don't see estro sides until 75 to 100mg

 

[sespress]

Have exemestane and nolva on hand and you're gtg. I've ran trest 5 times now and have gone as high as 200mg Ed with it. Tried only formastane the first run and estro sides ate me up! Last time at 200mg Ed of trest and just 12.5mg of exem eod and 10mg of nolva eod I was gtg. Take it easy on the dosing and work up slow. Most users don't see estro sides until 75 to 100mg

So you prefer the suicide version of an AI to something like arimidex? I will take your advice and pick up a bottle of that jam. Thanks dude

 

[yates84]

So you prefer the suicide version of an AI to something like arimidex? I will take your advice and pick up a bottle of that jam. Thanks dude

Nothing wrong with adex on cycle. Works for me just as well tbh