Is tren as good as it gets?

[DetroitHammer]

Test Enanthate at 400mgs per week is my base. I usually inject test prop or suspension every other day. The suspension is out of the system so quickly I don't usually count it, but if you want to add it to the average, then it's 400mgs of a long estered test along with short estered test a few times per week. Anyone who has ever used AAS knows that the difference between 400 and 500 mgs of a long estered test per week is negligible... If all you injected was 50mgs of test suspension per day it's not the same as injecting 350mgs of test enanthate per week. Even a moron like Stan should know that. But if he wants to pick my posts apart as if he's some expert on AAS and wants to battle each post I make, perhaps he should take it off line and I'd be glad to let him vent and get it out of his system. We don't even know if he has ever used AAS. He's so full of himself he has no idea what he's saying half the time.

He still makes a valid point.

 

[DetroitHammer]

Where is the contradiction? "Roughly" 400 is an approximate. I explained the differences.

You contradicted yourself.

 

[Rodja]

Test Enanthate at 400mgs per week is my base. I usually inject test prop or suspension every other day. The suspension is out of the system so quickly I don't usually count it, but if you want to add it to the average, then it's 400mgs of a long estered test along with short estered test a few times per week. Anyone who has ever used AAS knows that the difference between 400 and 500 mgs of a long estered test per week is negligible... If all you injected was 50mgs of test suspension per day it's not the same as injecting 350mgs of test enanthate per week. Even a moron like Stan should know that. But if he wants to pick my posts apart as if he's some expert on AAS and wants to battle each post I make, perhaps he should take it off line and I'd be glad to let him vent and get it out of his system. We don't even know if he has ever used AAS. He's so full of himself he has no idea what he's saying half the time.

You claimed to run 500mg E per week and are now claiming 400mg E per week. THAT'S the contradiction.

 

[DetroitHammer]

You know, when I read your statement and his asinine comments, it's no wonder guys are all confused as to what to use and how to use it. You can't understand basic math or ester cleavage, and Stan just spouts off stuff off "clinical" studies without knowing first hand how anything actually works. Is there any evidence that Stan has actually ever used AAS?

You claimed to run 500mg E per week and are now claiming 400mg E per week. THAT'S the contradiction.

 

[Rodja]

You know, when I read your statement and his asinine comments, it's no wonder guys are all confused as to what to use and how to use it. You can't understand basic math or ester cleavage, and Stan just spouts off stuff off "clinical" studies without knowing first hand how anything actually works. Is there any evidence that Stan has actually ever used AAS?

You could just admit you made a mistake instead of throwing a fit.

 

[DetroitHammer]

I made no mistake. I thought I explained it simple enough for everyone to understand. No contradiction and no mistake.

You could just admit you made a mistake instead of throwing a fit.

 

[fueledpassion]

Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two.

I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing.

I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!

 

[Rodja]

I made no mistake. I thought I explained it simple enough for everyone to understand. No contradiction and no mistake.

You have one post claiming you cruise on 400mg E and another claiming 500mg E per week. How is that NOT a contradiction? If it's a typo, just freaking say so. You should really reread what you post.

Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two. I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing. I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!

I also wonder this and makes me question many of his claims.

 

[DetroitHammer]

My guess is that at my age I'm not responding to AAS as I did a decade or two ago. That's why I pepper my TRT does with suspension or Prop, to give me more available test when I hit the weights. If you're still on AAS when you hit 60+, you'll notice a change in your body's response. I can't quite place my finger on it, but it's noticeable. If I stay at 400mgs of Test E per week, I feel "average." But if I add suspension on 2-3 of the days, I feel a surge that I don't get otherwise. But, the real concern is not your test levels but your RBC, Hemotacrit and for some, E2/DHT. I make note of my test levels, but other values are more of a factor to me. My E2, believe it or not, remains on the low side with no AI/SERM. That's a function of test, so the levels I'm at (400 Test E plus 150 +/- Suspension) seems to have me dialed in. Like I said, my age is going to be a factor and I'm sure that's why my values are different from you younger guys.

Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two.

I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing.

I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!

 

[DetroitHammer]

How can you not understand what I said? It'd freakin' amazing. But let me ask you this, just to illustrate a point. Do you really think there is any noticeable difference between 400 and 500mgs of test E per week? Do you really think that that difference is going to make a difference?

You have one post claiming you cruise on 400mg E and another claiming 500mg E per week. How is that NOT a contradiction? If it's a typo, just freaking say so. You should really reread what you post.


I also wonder this and makes me question many of his claims.

 

[Rodja]

How can you not understand what I said? It'd freakin' amazing. But let me ask you this, just to illustrate a point. Do you really think there is any noticeable difference between 400 and 500mgs of test E per week? Do you really think that that difference is going to make a difference?

Nice deflection...again. However, I'll play along with your childish game. The difference in a 25% or a 20% decrease (depending on perspective) in dose is going to be noticeable.

 

[jbryand101b]

Well, there is a notable difference switching from test e that's 250mg/ml and test e that's 200mg/ml

And then going to 100mg/ml of prop e/o/d you notice how low it was even more.

So yea, 100mg more per week of test e makes a notable difference for me.

 

[Gutterpump]

My guess is that at my age I'm not responding to AAS as I did a decade or two ago.

Well there's two things that can happen to someone who is on TRT.

1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels. Might need some LCLT or l-car shots to upregulate the AR in this case. This is what could happen to people over time when on TRT.

BUT this does not sound like what's happening with you. It is possible you are metabolizing test much quicker than normal. I have seen this before in the Male Anti-Aging section of the board. There are some people on TRT who MUST use higher levels of test on TRT (in order to get normal levels) because their bodies are metabolizing test far too quickly. I am not certain of the cause though but it's definitely possible. 400mg a week should have you much higher than 1100, should be around 2000 I'm guessing. How often do you shoot, and how long after injection was the test that showed your levels at 1100?

 

[jbryand101b]

1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels.

This is a myth.

 

[Gutterpump]

1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels. /QUOTE]

This is a myth.

It's been proven that l-carnitine l-tartrate upregulates the AR. I've seen the studies. All receptors of any kind can get downregulated.

Do you have proof otherwise?

 

[fueledpassion]

I don't have proof atm but I do know that Datbtrue claims that steroids can UPREGULATE the receptors, some more than others of course. DTA seems to do this from my experience. Usually if Dat says something definitive, there is some sort of medical literature that supports his claim. Just a thought.

The receptors do get used to the dosing though I do not think it's due to downregulation. U just have to keep upping the dose. Personally, if that's the case, then TRT is impossible to be a lifelong success because you'll always start "feeling like crap" again after a while. Then u need to add more . Then more. And so on.

I'd rather just do long bulking/cutting cycles at productive doses and cycle off with Clomid, L-Carn, Formestane etc for months at a time. I'm debating 6 months on, 6-8 months off.

 

[Gutterpump]

I've been on TRT around 5 yrs, so far I've felt much better after lowering my dose over time from a starting dose of 200-250mg to about 125mg a week. I know it's not that long though so I'll have to get back to you about this in 10 years hehe

 

[Gutterpump]

If it's true that it's impossible for the androgen receptor to become down-regulated, it is very easy for the dopamine receptors to down-regulate. Hormones are closely tied in with neurotransmitters. Estrogen has a very close affiliation with serotonin, and DHT/Test is linked in tightly with dopamine. When dopamine receptors are over-used or highly stimulated for a very long time, they will quickly and easily become down-regulated causing all sorts of issues like fatigue, loss of motivation, loss of sex drive, etc.

 

[hiprsha666]

http://www.basskilleronline.com/adrogen-receptor-regulation.shtml

 

[Gutterpump]

The androgen receptor however is only responsible for muscle growth and the like. The 'feeling good' sensation whilst on TRT is directly associated to neurotransmitters and their function, so 'not feeling test and needing more over time' while on TRT is not a function of the androgen receptor, it's more a function of the dopamine receptor and the balance of serotonin/dopamine.

Not getting the same gains is another story altogether though.

Anyhow, taking 400mg of test per week and getting levels of 1100 is a sign of an ultra fast test-metabolization issue, not any sort of down-regulation or the like.

 

[fueledpassion]

The androgen receptor however is only responsible for muscle growth and the like. The 'feeling good' sensation whilst on TRT is directly associated to neurotransmitters and their function, so 'not feeling test and needing more over time' while on TRT is not a function of the androgen receptor, it's more a function of the dopamine receptor and the balance of serotonin/dopamine.

Not getting the same gains is another story altogether though.

Anyhow, taking 400mg of test per week and getting levels of 1100 is a sign of an ultra fast test-metabolization issue, not any sort of down-regulation or the like.

Yes thank you! I couldn't remember but u just jogged my memory. This is what I researched on Dat's site.

 

[Gutterpump]

If that's really happening DetroitHammer - you should post up your protocol and labs in the Anti-Aging section, maybe ask for help from The Matrix. He seems to know a lot about this issue.

 

[jbryand101b]

If you want to discuss androgen receptor up, down all around regulation, do so with Patrick Arnold, he has explained this mythical phenomenon a bunch.

 

[dezzy84]

Omg what the hell are we talking about I thought it was how good tren is lol. This stuff is way over my head I'm trying to keep up...

 

[jbryand101b]

I want to run bold cyp with ment ace someday

 

[Gutterpump]

If you want to discuss androgen receptor up, down all around regulation, do so with Patrick Arnold, he has explained this mythical phenomenon a bunch.

I'm not really trying to debate it or talk about it. I'm trying to help Detroit Hammer with what looks like a hyper-excretion / metabolization issue.

 

[jbryand101b]

I'm not really trying to debate it or talk about it. I'm trying to help Detroit Hammer with what looks like a hyper-excretion / metabolization issue.

Oh, you asked for studies, so thought you wanted a scientific explanation. Any who, that's what you can Google to learn about it.

 

[Gutterpump]

Oh, you asked for studies, so thought you wanted a scientific explanation. Any who, that's what you can Google to learn about it.

If you read the thread posts in their entirety today, you'd see that someone posted an article full of studies for me and I replied to his post. You'd also see that I made a couple posts after that as well. You don't even have to google it, just go back a page and read on. However, I'll repeat myself for you though if you'd like, because I'm such a nice guy.

 

[kisaj]

I've been on TRT around 5 yrs, so far I've felt much better after lowering my dose over time from a starting dose of 200-250mg to about 125mg a week. I know it's not that long though so I'll have to get back to you about this in 10 years hehe

Same. I am at about 4 years and continued to go down to about 120 ew, where I am most comfortable averaging 700ish.

 

[kisaj]

If that's really happening DetroitHammer - you should post up your protocol and labs in the Anti-Aging section, maybe ask for help from The Matrix. He seems to know a lot about this issue.

It is more common than I would have thought and there have been a number of guys in there that have dealt/deal with it. It is all too real and usually associated with something else. Matrix tends to point to adrenal and gut issues, IIRC.

 

[Gutterpump]

Same. I am at about 4 years and continued to go down to about 120 ew, where I am most comfortable averaging 700ish.

Good stuff, that seems to be the magic number for a lot of people. Everything seems perfectly balanced at this level. I've noticed that things are even better now that I've added TD DHEA + PREG back into the mix as well.

 

[kisaj]

Preg made a 100% difference for me.

 

[Gutterpump]

I used to take oral preg and dhea back in the day, years ago, but oral dhea doesn't suit me (e2 went up too much) and oral preg seemed to convert to high amounts of progesterone for some reason. The transdermals are amazing.

This thread is officially all over the place now haha

 

[kisaj]

I was thinking about trading in my Tundra and getting the new model.



lol

 

[jbryand101b]

If you read the thread posts in their entirety today, you'd see that someone posted an article full of studies for me and I replied to his post. You'd also see that I made a couple posts after that as well. You don't even have to google it, just go back a page and read on. However, I'll repeat myself for you though if you'd like, because I'm such a nice guy.

I saw that, didn't look at it.
saw its bill Roberts. Don't care for him

 

[StanleyG]

I'm not really trying to debate it or talk about it. I'm trying to help Detroit Hammer with what looks like a hyper-excretion / metabolization issue.

Yeah or with what looks like a total crock of **** issue- which is more likely given the contradictions. I seriously doubt those numbers are real...at all...just like a large % of the BS he posts.

 

[threeFs]

Speaking of Bill Roberts, how come he seems to be the only person who says tren doesn't increase prolactin? I am running tren again now but also prami. I have blood work scheduled for 10/7 so I will post up results when I get them.

I surely don't want lactating nipples, however I wouldn't mind skipping the strange feelings I get from prami

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Speaking of Bill Roberts, how come he seems to be the only person who says tren doesn't increase prolactin? I am running tren again now but also prami. I have blood work scheduled for 10/7 so I will post up results when I get them.

I surely don't want lactating nipples, however I wouldn't mind skipping the strange feelings I get from prami

I've never had to run anything for prolactin while on tren. As long as my estrogen is under control I don't have issues. I believe it does raise prolactin but i believe it varies from person to person.

 

[threeFs]

I've never had to run anything for prolactin while on tren. As long as my estrogen is under control I don't have issues. I believe it does raise prolactin but i believe it varies from person to person.

For Estrogen issues, are you referring to cycling tren with higher than TRT doses of test?

 

[StanleyG]

Speaking of Bill Roberts, how come he seems to be the only person who says tren doesn't increase prolactin? I am running tren again now but also prami. I have blood work scheduled for 10/7 so I will post up results when I get them.

I surely don't want lactating nipples, however I wouldn't mind skipping the strange feelings I get from prami

How will your results while running Prami show you what trens effects on PRL will be? You would need to drop the prami to get an indication as far as trens effects on PRL. You cant just say oh well PRL is in range and im running prami so tren must increase PRL. It may not increase it to such a degree that your method would be an accurate indication.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

For Estrogen issues, are you referring to cycling tren with higher than TRT doses of test?

Higher or lower I've never had an issue. I think it just depends on the person.

 

[tinytony]

Higher or lower I've never had an issue. I think it just depends on the person.

I had issues but for me I think I need to keep test below 150. Maybe at 100 EW. Butbtheblast time I ran it I wasn't using Prami or a very strong AI so that could be expected for someone sensitive to this.

 

[fueledpassion]

I had issues but for me I think I need to keep test below 150. Maybe at 100 EW. Butbtheblast time I ran it I wasn't using Prami or a very strong AI so that could be expected for someone sensitive to this.

I just prefer DTA/Test combo.

Better. Just better.

 

[tinytony]

I just prefer DTA/Test combo.

Better. Just better.

Me too. No sides. Same cuts. Gnarly pumps.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

I just prefer DTA/Test combo.

Better. Just better.

I still gotta take my DTA virginity lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Trest actually beats tren on paper by quite a bit.

the vida numbers for tren uses nortestosterone acetate as the standard. trest uses test and methyltest as the standard.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just prefer DTA/Test combo.

Better. Just better.

Me too. No sides. Same cuts. Gnarly pumps.

so you guys didn't get the "crazy" sides from desoxy? alot of talk about mental sides on the other board. a couple of people sayin it was so bad they stopped taking it.

 

[StanleyG]

Speaking of Bill Roberts, how come he seems to be the only person who says tren doesn't increase prolactin? I am running tren again now but also prami. I have blood work scheduled for 10/7 so I will post up results when I get them.

I surely don't want lactating nipples, however I wouldn't mind skipping the strange feelings I get from prami

He isnt alone in this. Patrick Arnold has speculated that it may be an increase in Oxytocin more so than PRL that causes lactation. This would explain lactation that occurs on cycles in the absence of 19nors, which can occur and would also explain blood work where insignificant increases in PRL are observed when taking a 19 nor yet lactation is taking place. Not saying it is right or wrong but I will say this, estrogen management appears to potentially be the key and when e2 is properly managed on cycle the likelihood that lactation or other perceived PRL sides occurring is significantly reduced.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK sort of contradictory. I've ran 16 weeks of tren. Done two cycles. Had zero emotional sides from it at all. I think a lot of the reported emotional sides are placebo effects.

lol, i dont consider wanting to crack somebody's skull open 3 or 4 times a day a placebo effect.

 

[fueledpassion]

so you guys didn't get the "crazy" sides from desoxy? alot of talk about mental sides on the other board. a couple of people sayin it was so bad they stopped taking it.

Nope. I have a little anxiety perhaps. But up until today, I had ZERO test with it. Now I'm running a low dose of T (100mg/wk) so I'm sure my mood will get better.

Honestly, any anxiety I have cannot directly be attributed to the DTA considering that I'm in a contest prep, transitioning roles at work & moving out of my apartment at the same time.

Of ur looking for something in between Tren and EQ, it's worth a try IMO. Don't go crazy with aromatizing hormones in lieu though as desoxy really amplifies the conversion.