is pct really necessary?!

[tbarrows]

Cliffs at the bottom but if you want to read on, by all means.

I've never taken a pro hormone or steroid before so I don't know everything there is to know about running a cycle properly, however I know that with any ph or roid you'll need the appropriate pct lined up....

Subject #1: So the other day I was sitting up at the bar with a buddy of mine for the Phils game and he was telling me about this new cycle he's running, a product called SOS 500 which by the looks of the nomenclature looks pretty serious. I asked him what he had in mind for pct and he said 'I've got some novedex xt in my room'. I almost had a heart attack! This particular guy has ran several ph's like epi and mdrol as well as 1 previous test e/dbol cycle... all of which he never pct'd with a serm or anything! Now I've got him purchasing some clomid or nolva but that's besides the point. He has no visible gyno (I know because we had a shore house over the summer), he says his sex drive has never been affected, his hair has stayed full and he drinks like a fish... while on these cycles. I hear all the time about the horror stories of experiences people have when it comes to running cycles and improper pct's... could he be the exception or is it really not that serious? Is a proper pct just 'recommended' and not actually necessary?

Subject #2: Last night I was out with another buddy of mine who also has a history of ph use; hdrol, mdrol & andro (back in high school). He too has never used a pct of ANY kind, not even novedex xt and yet still shows no signs of gyno, hair loss or libido loss. He too drinks while on cycles and eats like **** and still, at least on the outside, he seems fine.

I know someone will probably say 'why don't you run a cycle without pct and find out for yourself', but that's not happening. If and when I make the leap, I'll have all of my ducks in a row. I'm just curious if there are others out there that run these compounds for a couple weeks and then just get off them? Is pct actually just a recommendation and not a necessity?

Cliffs:
2 buddies love roids
never do pct
they're seemingly fine
why!?!?

 

[flightposite]

you said it yourself my friend "they're seemingly fine" buton the other hand they could really be fine but not really worth the risk imo.

 

[Dazer]

is pct necessary, probably not as eventually your body will recover on its own providing the cycles were not to stupid, that said however the idea of pct is to recover normal hormonal function as quickly as possible and i would never take any cycle without firstly having all my pct in place first, why bother spending all time in the gym and money on a cycle only to lose all your gains because you have the test and estrogen levels of a girl. as for your friends its hard to know why they seem fine of cycle with no pct perhaps their cycles included oil based injectables which are giving them some benefits after the cycle was finished or perhaps just like some people i know they never really come of completely or for any real length of time or perhaps they are lucky. i'm no doctor but i am certain that the longer people go without addressing pct the bigger the problem will likely be.although at the start i said it was probably not necessary this forum has lots of posts from people regretting not having had their pct in order, so with that in mind i would say its necessary why take the risk? just my opinion.

 

[bdcc]

It is a good question as I am sure loads of people have had the same experience or come across someone who has asked the same question.

For my opinion on the subject I am going to relay a thread which was posted on a UK forum.

A long term steroid user posted on there and said he has been on cycles for years and years (10 I think) and had never used anything for PCT. When he was ridiculed by the rest of the forum he said the same thing "loads of guys in my gym have been using steroids for years, never doing PCT or taking adequate time off and have never had any issues".

Anyway, to cut to the chase this guy was posting on there as a new member because he had lost the ability to ejaculate, claiming that when he finished nothing came out, as well as having another serious sexual health issue (I can't remember what off hand) and facing the possibility of being put on TRT because his test levels were abysmal.

A lot of people posted recommended PCT options to try and kickstart his own test production again, all of which he questioned because his friends didn't do it and didn't seem to have any issues.

I guess it is a sliding scale, he would have had what people on here would consider problems long before the physical symptoms became really noticeable. Even with this anecdote it is hard to convince a long term abuser who feels absolutely fine that PCT and time off is important.

I hope this provides a helpful perspective.

 

[Pipes]

This is a great example for both sides actually. If this is the only problem he has as far as health goes.. after 10 years.. arguement can be made that going longer on these types of cycles should be fine.. 6 weeks of sd instead of 3 for example. I dunno but this is not a rare case.. alot of people abuse steroids and have little to no health issues. And its very uncommon to hear in the news 'all these kids getting hospitalized for abusing'

Now it sure appears Im advocating for the lack of structure.. but I'm not. I'm merely saying, that sometimes being safe.. doesnt mean being strict. Maybe we should all let loose every now and then. The human body is amazing at what it can handle, and its ability to fix itself.

Anyhow.. I'm sure if i could actually lose rep for posting.. id be at zero after this post lol.

Being said.. I'm actually on a pct for some mdrol that I don't even think worked.

 

[tbarrows]

This is a great example for both sides actually. If this is the only problem he has as far as health goes.. after 10 years.. arguement can be made that going longer on these types of cycles should be fine.. 6 weeks of sd instead of 3 for example. I dunno but this is not a rare case.. alot of people abuse steroids and have little to no health issues. And its very uncommon to hear in the news 'all these kids getting hospitalized for abusing'

Now it sure appears Im advocating for the lack of structure.. but I'm not. I'm merely saying, that sometimes being safe.. doesnt mean being strict. Maybe we should all let loose every now and then. The human body is amazing at what it can handle, and its ability to fix itself.

Anyhow.. I'm sure if i could actually lose rep for posting.. id be at zero after this post lol.

Being said.. I'm actually on a pct for some mdrol that I don't even think worked.

lol you're entitled to your own opinion, bra. I'm sure no one will be negative repping you for that.

You all have brought up some interesting points... If only more people used these great forums filled with knowledgeable members for their information rather than relying on the guy at vitamin shop selling to them milk thistle and hawthorn berry as a 'comprehensive pct'.

Interesting to hear that others have heard of people doing steroids without pct and claim to be fine though.

Mdrol that didn't work?!

 

[duke66]

The idea of doing a cycle without any concern for pct is just a real stupid idea. This of course is my opinion. As has been said the human body can in fact handle a great deal of stress; however just because it takes the stress does not mean it is not taking damage. There are a host of medical conditions that have very subtle symptoms that do slow progressive damage over years. Hypertension for one the silent killer. how about drinkers that go for years of abuse and wake up one day with a cirrhotic liver and in liver failure. Yeah the body can compensate but it is delusional to think that there is not a price being paid. The other aspect is getting one's hpta back in order asap. Someone else already remarked about having test levels of a girl. That's exactly what we have post cycle unless pct is run and run properly. Without pct the body is in a catabolic state, has little to know test for anabolism and proper protein turnover and recovery. This just scratches the surface.
This is an interesting philosophical discussion, but to actually entertain not having pct is not good. Years ago we didn't know any better so we didn't run pct. Now that we do know better and the evidence is based in science, why would someone ever consider a cycle without it?
PS not trying to offend or insult anyone here. just my opinion for safer health practices in an unsafe environment.

 

[bdcc]

I think it is also important to differentiate between 'healthy' and 'optimal'. Some people could get their test levels checked months after a cycle without PCT and still be in a normal range, despite being on the low side. They could argue that PCT wasn't needed.

On the other hand his twin who did the same cycle might feel that the PCT was necessary to bring his testosterone back to something more substantial.

There are lots of people who don't take anything unless they feel a symptom. Liver values would be elevated long before serious symptoms develop. Would you rather take something as insurance or take something when the signs are more noticeable?

A friend who has just opened a local gym has started selling PHs despite having VERY poor knowledge on the subject. Following his first cycle (Mdrol) he took tribulus, when I said this wasn't substantial enough he added in Novadex XT. The guys who ask him questions get the same advice.

 

[Pipes]

Mdrol that didn't work?!

I dont know if thats being sarcastic because other people have had the same issue or because its a rare issue lol.

At first I thought it was me, or my diet, or my gym habits. But I went through the list of things it could be besides the cel mdrol, and the only real thing I came up with was maybe my diet.. It was high in protein, low in fat, and a little less than medium on carbs. I thought maybe I needed to up the carbs a bit.

Also I did not notice any loss of libido and the one item that stands out was the complete lack of testicular atrophy. I mean none.. that I noticed that is. I didn't do much feeling of my scrotum because since its not something I would do normally.. I wouldnt have been able to tell if they shrunk, but the sac still hung at normal length and there appeared to be no difference in the testicles.

Anyhow Im still sticking with the better safe than sorry and riding out my pct.

 

[chocolatemilk]

PCT is not necessary.

It's also not necessary for me to wipe my ass.

The body will reach homeostasis on its own unassisted. But it's not very efficient at it to be honest. It will skyrocket your estrogen levels to try to reach homeostasis THEN bring them down slowly instead of just letting estrogen rise slowly. That period of high estrogen may become gyno mania for some... but no problem to others.

No PCT = Body reach's homeostasis

PCT= Body reach's homeostasis faster + Better gain retention + dramatically less chance of estrogen gyno

It's not a hard decision.

What I've learned is this... the people who don't run PCT's... lack a lot of education on steroids. This is ALWAYS the case. I have never known someone who knows his steroids very well and doesn't run a PCT. But I always see people who don't know their steroids well at all not running PCT's ...case and point... your friends. They don't seem like the brightest of the bunch...

And I'm not saying they don't seem bright because they don't run PCT's... just generally speaking they don't sound very bright.

 

[Outstanding]

It is necessary only in the context of wanting to expedite the normalization of endogenous hormones and keep preceding gains.

As far as your friends who are seemingly fine, they either never truly come off, adopting the taper method of testosterone usage, have been receiving bunk product which never truly shuts their HPTA and natural production down, or have not come close to realizing their true potential because of uninformed and dangerous idiotic practices like this.

Any athlete who engages in anabolic usage and refuses to abide by the solid and long standing science of PCT is in essence reckless and self destructive - so I would assume they never really come completely off, or jump right back on as soon as they have an off day or someone asks them if they lost weight.

They rely on and vest their souls in steroids as their end all solution, rather than relying on exacting and ongoing nutritional regimens and consistent training all supported by the research and enactment of applied sciences; which it seems they have no respect or care for.

 

[Dazer]

when this question was first posted i thought 'dont reckon many on this board are going to say no' and i see that so far everyone has stated the importance of pct with any cycle. steroids, ph's and ds can all play a part in a successful training lifestyle but only if they don't replace proper training and nutrition.

so many times do you see people first start training and they all want to talk about nutrition training etc, but it never seems long before all they want to talk about is 'what they are going to take, what they have coming (often stacks consisting of every steroid the local dealer had at the time) and yet never a mention of pct, support supps in fact if you mention these things a blank expression is all you get back. its these numpties that are going to screw themselves up and at the same time screw it up for everyone who bothers to at least try and educate themselves.
to everyone that advocates a proper approach to steroid use a big thumbs up and hopefully the message will get through to those who seem so willing to lose the ability to get wood for the sake of a quick and easy few pounds of muscle.
anyone out there who is thinking is pct necessary dont take my word for it but by all means read the information posted on boards like this one who are vastly more knowledgeable than i and then make your decisions.

 

[Outstanding]

steroids, ph's and ds can all play a part in a successful training lifestyle but only if they don't replace proper training and nutrition.

Dear Mr. Nail... I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Hammer - I'll leave you to to get acquainted. (BAM! Mr. Nail disappears sunken into a piece of wood)

 

[The Neck]

My only repsonse to this would be "Why would one, not do PCT"? Chances are the response would be I dunno know.

 

[tacoreaper]

I would be curious to see their blood work after a cycle or even now whether their on or off.

 

[Outstanding]

I would be curious to see their blood work after a cycle or even now whether their on or off.

Curious or not... http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/162171-pct-really-necessary.html#post2609996

 

[mildot]

I would love to see bloodwork to show they are both truly "normal".

 

[tacoreaper]

Outstanding,

I thought you did a pretty good job answering that question in your first post. I was just curious about there blood work. Wouldn't blood work be a pretty good indicator to let them know if they are screwed up inside?

 

[Outstanding]

Outstanding,

I thought you did a pretty good job answering that question in your first post. I was just curious about there blood work. Wouldn't blood work be a pretty good indicator to let them know if they are screwed up inside?

Absolutely. This is always the best method to gauge when you have achieved normalization or homeostasis and when it would be acceptable to embark upon another anabolic voyage. However, PCT is the first line of defense, and irreplaceable aspect of cycling that is as (if not exceedingly MORE) important than the anabolic portion and duration.

 

[2die4]

However, PCT is the first line of defense

Thats the best answer ever!!!
You cant argue with that can you? the answer is NO PERIOD!!!

 

[slacker86]

your friends are young. Younger men make faster and easier recoveries from shut down. Thats why they have lesser side effects and dont PCT the older you get or the more creative ur cycles the more "assistance" you need to reach normal hormone levels.

Ur friends are lucky, more or less they are just young and able to recover quickly that will change with more cycles and with age. And the side effects of steroids are not just acute a lot of the side effects that are supposedly unknown will probably appear down the road especially if unhealthy habits such as drinking and partying etc etc continue.

I will not really comment any more cause i never come off so take it for what its worth but ur friends are just lucky and on a timer which will run out eventually so hopefully they either stop cycling or they will be forced to respect the compounds they are taking.

 

[KBD]

PCT isnt necessary, althought highly reccomended if you want to maintain some of your gains after cycle.

Kinda hard to maintain muscle without PCT help and stopping cold turkey.

Plus i find PCT kind of helps with depression. Im always on GHRP-6 though so i dont really lose much size anyways lol, and i wanna run a little bit of slin with my PCT (Not recommended for beginner or intermediate AAS users)

Clomid IMO is best for keeping gains and keeping libido sky high!

 

[bdcc]

A friend of mine told me on his last MDrol cycle he bumped the dose up to 80mg for the last few days and added 5 DBol.

At least he had his tribulus and Novadex XT for pct (no joke).

 

[Dazer]

oh man my balls have started to shrink and my liver aches just thinking about 80mg of sdrol and 5 dbol, i'm of to get some trib to sort it out.

 

[bdcc]

He said he was so tired during that week that he lay down next to the incline bench and fell asleep!

Make sure to add Novadex as well, I don't think trib on it's own would cut it...

 

[Dazer]

i'm surprised he woke up at all, must have been the novedex xt that saved him!

 

[Outstanding]

PCT isnt necessary...

No it isn't necessary as in some law of physics or punishable by death - but I think the unifying understanding here is that questions are posed with the substantive intent and measure to extract information specific to aiding in health and hormone recovery to maintain newly realized muscle (e.g. seat-belts aren't necessary to drive a car at 120 miles per hour, the accelerator peddle will still work when pressure is added to it with your foot - but it's a very... very... very good idea).

So, it is necessary: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/162171-pct-really-necessary.html#post2609996

 

[KBD]

No it isn't necessary as in some law of physics or punishable by death - but I think the unifying understanding here is that questions are posed with the substantive intent and measure to extract information specific to aiding in health and hormone recovery to maintain newly realized muscle (e.g. seat-belts aren't necessary to drive a car at 120 miles per hour, the accelerator peddle will still work when pressure is added to it with your foot - but it's a very... very... very good idea).

Did you read what i wrote after i said pct isn't necessary? I said its highly recommended, just like wearing your seat belt. So what was your point in the last post lol.

 

[Outstanding]

Did you read what i wrote after i said pct isn't necessary? I said its highly recommended, just like wearing your seat belt. So what was your point in the last post lol.

My point was to give you a big ole' bear hug!

Haha, I don't think I read your post in its entirety or it didn't absorb - either way I am at work so I'm sure something else caught my attention.

 

[KBD]

My point was to give you a big ole' bear hug!

Haha, I don't think I read your post in its entirety or it didn't absorb - either way I am at work so I'm sure something else caught my attention.

Its all good bro.

 

[JoHNnyNuTZ]

Bear hugs all around!!!!