IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

[nopeace]

Is it anti-semitic to criticize Israel's actions?

Should I be supporting them? Why?

 

[EasyEJL]

Hamas fires these rockets as a response to Israeli action against them.

Right, and the israeli's punish the palestinian population as a response to hamas firing these rockets. And since from schoolyards, UN facilities, etc, and hides the rockets that aren't being fired in schools and mosques and other civilian buildings, Israel doesn't have many options as to where they strike either. If israel were to stop targeting civilian buildings, that just gives hamas free reign to kill as many israelis as they can.

 

[EasyEJL]

Is it anti-semitic to criticize Israel's actions?

Should I be supporting them? Why?

Because they are the legitimately internationally recognized owners of that land, and because hamas has been internationally regarded as a terrorist group.

 

[nopeace]

Right, and the israeli's punish the palestinian population as a response to hamas firing these rockets. And since from schoolyards, UN facilities, etc, and hides the rockets that aren't being fired in schools and mosques and other civilian buildings, Israel doesn't have many options as to where they strike either. If israel were to stop targeting civilian buildings, that just gives hamas free reign to kill as many israelis as they can.

Can you prove they have done this?

 

[EasyEJL]

Can you prove they have done this?

Can you prove they didn't? Where are their rockets being held and fired from then as there are NO military bases for Hamas. So they only have civilian places to fire from.

 

[nopeace]

Because they are the legitimately internationally recognized owners of that land, and because hamas has been internationally regarded as a terrorist group.

Then why does Israel have the Record for highest UN condemnations?

Legitimate land ownership does not mean you can roundup of the people who previously lived there and push them into concentration camps.


Hamas was set up by Israel to counter Fatah. Ironic huh?

Hamas is supported mainly by Saudia Arabia and looks like Obama just went over there and submitted. WTF?

 

[lutherblsstt]

Anti-semite?




Naaaahhhhhhh..........



:lol:

Stop conflating anti-Zionism and anti-semitism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ckonfreespeech

Anti Zionism is not Anti Semitism by Rabbi Ahron Cohen

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/060702/papers/ahron_cohen.pdf

 

[lutherblsstt]

Can you prove they didn't? Where are their rockets being held and fired from then as there are NO military bases for Hamas. So they only have civilian places to fire from.

You made the assertion,the burden is on you to prove it.

 

[nopeace]

Can you prove they didn't? Where are their rockets being held and fired from then as there are NO military bases for Hamas. So they only have civilian places to fire from.

Yep. The entire area gets pummeled.


It is actually suggested by Amnesty International and the UN that Israel has used children as human shields, shooting them and bulldozing homes with people still inside.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960824.stm

Red Cross has accused them of blocking medics from entering-which is a war crime.

Israel has claimed the same by Hamas in regards to human shields.

So is Israel overstepping what is ethical in warfare?

 

[nopeace]

Cosmo Kramer,

During the latest conflict:

Was Israel right to do air strikes in Gaza?
Who is guilty for breaking the cease fire?
Do Palestinians have rights to defend themselves(as do the Israelis)?

EASYJL:

Can you prove Hamas is firing Rockets from civilian locations?
Are these rockets devestating?
Do you think Israel has control inside the US Government?
By bombing Iran, are we doing it for the United States or acting for Israel?
Should the US support Israel?

 

[nopeace]

No one here seems to be Familiar with the USS Liberty incident.

http://www.gtr5.com/

RIP.

 

[nopeace]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiyyp9cZdY0"]YouTube - Media bias about the Israeli - Palestine conflict EXPOSED![/ame]

 

[SpargelJanusz]

No one here seems to be Familiar with the USS Liberty incident.

http://www.gtr5.com/

RIP.

I am, for a long time, but it was masterfully swept under the carpet for quite sometime. Thanks to the world wide web, those things become wider known.

Just as a general, interesting thought - how many Jews are serving in the U.S. Army, the organization that does the dirt work at the front ? 0.2%, or 1 in 500 Army personel is jewish.

How many of the aggressive Neocons, those whose mission is talking America into wars it supposedly has to fight to protect itself form terrorism (often without ever having worn a uniform themselves), are jewish?

"Slightly" more. Do research on the topic and get your eyes opened.
As a start, check out this interesting documentary that the BBC aired in 2003: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vWZTTrceV8&feature=related"]YouTube - The War Party -- Zionism in NeoCon Foreign Policy (1/5)[/ame]

This is part 1, the other 4 are available also.

 

[nopeace]

SpargelJanuez,

Yeah it is interesting. But if you make a remark like that you will be called anti-semite. I feel you're point. I am disgusted that the United States of America is so profoundly under the control of Israel and many of theirs our in positions of power and influence.

And if anyone should be promoting war it should be only those who have put their ass in grass. **** Cheney received 5 deferments from Vietnam and somehow ended up as Secretary of Defense and subsequently vice President. WTF?!

 

[AE14]

I was referring to the latest campaign

What do you find Comical? I don't like How much control Israel has on America. Do you support their control in our country? I'm more pissed off that our country wouldn't dare criticize them at all. Especially Fox news. Not to mention how they are pushing us to attack Iran because they can't do it. Do you support this?
Sorry, but I dont see the control of Israel, I do see an unwavering American support, is that what you are refering to
You're right about this, Israel wouldn't have made it if they didn't act preemptively. A great strategic victory by all accounts. Israel, had better weapons, especially jet fighters. IAF really kicked ass.
Preemptively? man, your history of the late 40's is jaded a tad

Since you acknowledge they never really owned the land, how do you expect the local people not to angry about their land being taken? So it would be okay if the Arab countries invaded and defeated Israel under the same terms it would be won back fair and square?
I did not ever acknowledge they NEVER owned the land. The argument could be made that thousands of years earlier it was their land. The history of how and why they left is quite sketchy.
In the extent of Atrocities, of course both sides could have combatants tried for war crimes. Israel is proving they are just dirty and spineless by acting like Hamas. They should at least man up and say "yeah we're killing civilians, so what?" instead of pretending to investigate.
You want them to acknowledge it? Why should they, it is fairly common knowledge that both sides are dirty here
I have no bias toward the Arab world. Our damn President just bowed his head to the Sultan of Saudi Arabia. Bias? Saudia Arabia supports terrorism the most of any other country and there's Obama following Bush by bending over. My Bias is in the best interest of my country. The US is NOT Israel's strong arm, we don't fight their wars and they shouldn't be telling us how to act and how to vote in the UN as they did to Bush.

Do you support Israel's control over the US?
Already answered
**** the Arab world, We shouldn't even be doing anything over there. No American lives should be spent to further the interest of another country or Corporation(s). Why should our tax dollars in the Billions go to another country if they are fully self-sufficient?QUOTE]
I dont disagree, however, there is concern for Israel's viability, and as you have said in previous posts, they wouldnt exist at this point without the US. Considering their neighbors want their destruction, someone will look out for them
Hows that?

 

[lutherblsstt]

I was referring to the latest campaign

What do you find Comical? I don't like How much control Israel has on America. Do you support their control in our country? I'm more pissed off that our country wouldn't dare criticize them at all. Especially Fox news. Not to mention how they are pushing us to attack Iran because they can't do it. Do you support this?
Sorry, but I dont see the control of Israel, I do see an unwavering American support, is that what you are refering to
You're right about this, Israel wouldn't have made it if they didn't act preemptively. A great strategic victory by all accounts. Israel, had better weapons, especially jet fighters. IAF really kicked ass.
Preemptively? man, your history of the late 40's is jaded a tad

Since you acknowledge they never really owned the land, how do you expect the local people not to angry about their land being taken? So it would be okay if the Arab countries invaded and defeated Israel under the same terms it would be won back fair and square?
I did not ever acknowledge they NEVER owned the land. The argument could be made that thousands of years earlier it was their land. The history of how and why they left is quite sketchy.
In the extent of Atrocities, of course both sides could have combatants tried for war crimes. Israel is proving they are just dirty and spineless by acting like Hamas. They should at least man up and say "yeah we're killing civilians, so what?" instead of pretending to investigate.
You want them to acknowledge it? Why should they, it is fairly common knowledge that both sides are dirty here
I have no bias toward the Arab world. Our damn President just bowed his head to the Sultan of Saudi Arabia. Bias? Saudia Arabia supports terrorism the most of any other country and there's Obama following Bush by bending over. My Bias is in the best interest of my country. The US is NOT Israel's strong arm, we don't fight their wars and they shouldn't be telling us how to act and how to vote in the UN as they did to Bush.

Do you support Israel's control over the US?
Already answered
**** the Arab world, We shouldn't even be doing anything over there. No American lives should be spent to further the interest of another country or Corporation(s). Why should our tax dollars in the Billions go to another country if they are fully self-sufficient?QUOTE]
I dont disagree, however, there is concern for Israel's viability, and as you have said in previous posts, they wouldnt exist at this point without the US. Considering their neighbors want their destruction, someone will look out for them
Hows that?

Documentary 'The Israel lobby - The influence of AIPAC on US Foreign Policy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2894821400057137878

English version-- An episode of the Dutch documentary program "Tegenlicht" about the Israel lobby in the USA.

This documentary (April 2007) was created as a result of the controversy created by Mearsheimer and Walt's "The Israel Lobby" article.

Featuring interviews with Mearsheimer, geostrategist Lawrence Wikerson, Richard Perle, historian and critic Tony Judt, John Hagee, former Congressman Earl Hilliard, Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch, Michael Massing and Daniel Levy. 'Tegenlicht' ('Backlight') is a program from the Dutch VPRO public television.

English elucidation at the VPRO website: http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/dossiers/34338368/

 

[SpargelJanusz]

Sorry, but I dont see the control of Israel, I do see an unwavering American support, is that what you are refering to

AE, please tell me you are kidding here. No matter what your take on the whole Middle East situation is, no one who even half objectively looks at the facts can deny the huge influence the Israel lobby - maybe better called the Likud lobby - has on the decision making process in the white house.

President Carter said for a reason that it is political suicide to fall into miscredit with AIPAC and its allies. AIPAC itself takes pride into being the most powerful lobby on Capitol hill, Fortune magazine ranks it 2nd only behind the NRA.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/25/sheldon-adelson-gops-answ_n_114899.html

Men like him have made sure that every bit of realpolitik once dominant in the GOP have been thrown out of the window, it is now a party that is basically Likud's arm in the U.S. in that no republican who wants to seriously advance politically will dare to challenge people of the Netanjahu mindset. Those who do are smeared, like e.g. Ron Paul by jewish Neocon William Kristol.

I also remember reading a funny peace on now dead Jesse Helms in "The Economist", a british weekly, where they wrote, quoting an assistant "He (Jesse Helms) is an America first man, who wants to vigorously cut foreign aid - except, he hastily adds, for Israel"

Finally, a great speech by Ron Paul - listen to it, it brings up very valid points: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1210767551&c=1#comments

Half of the people he names are - surprise! - jews.

It is very rare that a minority (not even 3% of America's population is jewish) holds so much power in its hands to promote and advance a policy in the middle east that is obviously harmful to America's interest.

Finally, a great piece from 2006, when Israel with America's full backing decided to wreak havoc on Lebanon: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugesi_gaqLU"]YouTube - Pat Buchanan vs Neo-Cons[/ame]

 

[EasyEJL]

EASYJL:

Can you prove Hamas is firing Rockets from civilian locations?

You can prove it yourself. Is there any non-civilian locations in the areas Hamas is firing from? NO, so they are firing from civilian locations

Are these rockets devestating?

They often kill people, i'd consider that devasting.

Do you think Israel has control inside the US Government?

Not control, but friends. People want to see Israel survive, not see all Israelis killed by palenstinians, lebanese, iranians, etc as has been the stated intention.

By bombing Iran, are we doing it for the United States or acting for Israel?

well, we haven't bombed iran yet. But any activities we do in that area we primarily do for ourselves. If you didn't notice the total freakout mode everyone went into when gas hit $4 a gallon, imagine what would happen if Opec took prices higher, or if a jackal like Husein or Ahmadinejad managed to annex some of the other arabic territories and take total control.

Should the US support Israel?

So long as Israel is willing to negotiate on a 2 state system with palestine sure. Again, the problem here has been that Hamas has stated that the only acceptable answer is for all Israelis to die. Look at the videos I posted above of what the palestinians broadcast on TV for their CHILDREN to watch. They continuously teach the children that Israelis are animals and monsters, and will sneak in at night and drink their blood, so all israelis must die. I surely can't see the US supporting the palestinians.

Remember, Gaza Strip's Israeli control came from

Egypt's president Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967. Nasser knew that Soviet claims of Israel forces massing against the Syrian border were false, but used them as a pretext to evict the peacekeeping force that had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion which was launched during the Suez Crisis. Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries. Israel responded with a similar mobilization that included the call up of 70,000 reservists to augment the regular IDF forces. On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

All the arab nations share some significant blame for the palestinian situation, as they largely created it by refusing to accept israel's existence. It is a pity that the palestinians bear the brunt of the suffering for this, but until that basic attitude changes and the arab nations accept israel's right to exist, it won't change.

 

[EasyEJL]

AE, please tell me you are kidding here. No matter what your take on the whole Middle East situation is, no one who even half objectively looks at the facts can deny the huge influence the Israel lobby - maybe better called the Likud lobby - has on the decision making process in the white house.

Is your argument so weak that you have to substitute influence for control? Do all sorts of groups have huge influence on our government?

It is very rare that a minority (not even 3% of America's population is jewish) holds so much power in its hands to promote and advance a policy in the middle east that is obviously harmful to America's interest.

Where is there evidence its harmful to america's interests?

Finally, a great piece from 2006, when Israel with America's full backing decided to wreak havoc on Lebanon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugesi_gaqLU

After lebanon was bombing israel. duh. And what do you call full backing? I don't recall any US troops being used there. You mean they had our verbal support? Sure, they had my verbal support too, as I don't expect them to sit still and do nothing while they are being bombed.

 

[nopeace]

You really shouldn't have to look hard at our own Government to find that Israelis do hold power in this country. Rahm Emmanuel holds dual-citizenship in Israel and the United States. "Influence" is way off.

No one calls the US President on the phone in the middle of a speech and orders him to stop Condeleeza Rice from voting on the UN Resolution that she helped draft. After Rice convinced everyone it was a good plan.

Then the Prime Minister of Israel brags about????

How many other countries leaders bitch ours like that?

 

[nopeace]

Sorry, but I dont see the control of Israel, I do see an unwavering American support, is that what you are refering to?

Well obviously we support them. Our Former president obeys their commands. Why though? They sell our tech to china and spy on us?

Preemptively? man, your history of the late 40's is jaded a tad

Wrong war in mind, I was thinking six-day war (kick ass victory)


I did not ever acknowledge they NEVER owned the land. The argument could be made that thousands of years earlier it was their land. The history of how and why they left is quite sketchy

Yup, if we argue this then we might as well give California, Arizona etc back to Mexico. LOL.


You want them to acknowledge it? Why should they, it is fairly common knowledge that both sides are dirty here

I just think they should stop bullshitting on camera. They should tell the world exactly what their intentions are. Stop saying your military is ethical when you are clearly killing innocents to punish Hamas.

I dont disagree, however, there is concern for Israel's viability, and as you have said in previous posts, they wouldnt exist at this point without the US. Considering their neighbors want their destruction, someone will look out for them

Well if you take into account Israel's powerful "influence" on the US (also through the FED Reserve) it would make me infuriated to see my friends deployed overseas to protect Israel. FOKK that! The United States of America is for AMERICANS! We shouldn't be having our men fight to promote the Political goals of other nations or the Financial Agenda of Corporations.

I don't want our President to strike Iran because Israel has demanded the US to do it. Yes, they demand we handle and risk our pilots, not theirs. Who is shitting bricks about Iran and nukes???? Not the US, we could wipe them out in 2-8minutes. Israel is shitting bricks, or making an Excuse to attack it's biggest enemy. Iran can't even build anything reliable in terms of military, much less a missile capable of carrying a nuclear missile to Europe (stupid mccain)

This whole nuclear warhead from Iran is total bullshit. Just fear mongering by the NEO-cons and their masters in Israel. Iran has a buttload of oil, and is preparing to build a gas pipeline that would compete with projected pipeline that Halliburton is building in Afghanistan (did everyone think we were fighting terrorists? lol) their pipeline would feed China and India making ours obsolete. Not only this but Iran can deal a HUGE blow the US by selling oil in Euros, Hussein did this right before the war and they plugged him good.

If Iran sells oil in Euro the dollar will have to be dropped as the world's currency. Since it's nothing more than paper loaned to the American people at interest and is not backed by silver or gold, the Private banks that loan us our money (Federal Reserve) will lose power. The American dollar does not symbolize America it symbolizes pyramids and the all-seeing eye of horus.

So terrorism is not the Reason we are messing around in the middle east. Terrorism is the how the media makes you swallow it. Like they are making every American swallow a war with Iran.

The Federal Reserve though is another fraud topic....

 

[SpargelJanusz]

nopeace, this discussion is pretty fruitless. The basic point the Likudniks wanted to achieve has been achieved, namely making the majority of Americans believe that Israel's enemies are theirs as well, and that everyone who opposes the brutal oppression of the Palestinians is a potential terrorist. What else is the repeated collective punishment Israel engages but terrorism? I cannot call it differently.

Just read EasyJEL last sentences, where he asks "what full US backing"... does he really not know that the US back then blocked UN resolutions demanding an end of the destruction of Beirut???

Does he really not know that the US sent Israel weaponry to be used in this war, and how in the world was the invasion of southern lebanon a reaction to airstrikes???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/23/israel

And speaking of "my weak argument that I substitue control with influence", here's Ariel Sharon, convicted war criminal, in his own words: "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

 

[EasyEJL]

I don't want our President to strike Iran because Israel has demanded the US to do it. Yes, they demand we handle and risk our pilots, not theirs. Who is shitting bricks about Iran and nukes???? Not the US, we could wipe them out in 2-8minutes. Israel is shitting bricks, or making an Excuse to attack it's biggest enemy. Iran can't even build anything reliable in terms of military, much less a missile capable of carrying a nuclear missile to Europe (stupid mccain)

your total bias against israel really shines here. You first state that they demand we handle it and risk our pilots, then later say Israel is making an excuse to attack its biggest enemy. Which is it here, they want us to do it or do it themselves? They don't need us to do it at all, as they've shown in every military activity they've had since Israel was formed.

And the US is shitting about Iran and nukes, not over missles so much as suitcase bombs. Our borders with mexico and canada are so porous that we have 20 million pounds of marijuana come in a year, it wouldn't be that bad to sneak in a suitcase nuke, even one of just an EMP bomb size. Ahmadinejad has stated publicly that America should die, so its quite reasonable that he would help a plan to destroy "that horrible symbol of western capitalism - Wall Street)" which an EMP bomb would do a spectacular job of.

 

[EasyEJL]

What else is the repeated collective punishment Israel engages but terrorism? I cannot call it differently.

its called self defense.

Just read EasyJEL last sentences, where he asks "what full US backing"... does he really not know that the US back then blocked UN resolutions demanding an end of the destruction of Beirut???

Again, if you call something as weak as a vote "full backing" then I feel sorry for you. Full backing would mean actual US involvement. We are just giving them support.

Does he really not know that the US sent Israel weaponry to be used in this war, and how in the world was the invasion of southern lebanon a reaction to airstrikes???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/23/israel

What does this link have to do with it? The invasion of southern lebanon was due to missle + mortar strikes, not airstrikes. Some proof that we sent israel weapons would be nice. Or do you mean that a sovereign nation bought equipment from us? No different than Hamas, a globally accepted as terrorists group buying their weapons from Arab nations.

And speaking of "my weak argument that I substitue control with influence", here's Ariel Sharon, convicted war criminal, in his own words: "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."[/QUOTE]

 

[SpargelJanusz]

EasyJEL, do you have an even little grasp of how the UN works? What you call "weak as a "full vote" backing" means the U.N. cannot do anything when a member of its permanent security council blocks a resolution.

Then you ask "what does the link have do with it"... did you read it? The mortar strikes came AFTER the invasion, not before it. And have you taken the time to compare the destruction done by Israel with that done by Hizbollah?

"Some proof we sent Israel weapons would be nice", omg, this you cannot mean seriously, but here you go: http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html, a very insightful piece from 2002, or this

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGUSA20090402002&lang=e

or etc.... google for it yourself if you are serious about it.

Let me tell you this, on a long term basis, America will endure horrible blows if the Islamic world decids to stick together and put pressure on a country that is already dependant on foreigners financing its ever increasing debt loads.

But the Likudniks shoud be very proud, you are exactly how they have their posterboy American in mind.

 

[EasyEJL]

EasyJEL, do you have an even little grasp of how the UN works? What you call "weak as a "full vote" backing" means the U.N. cannot do anything when a member of its permanent security council blocks a resolution.

you mean how china and russia block anything the US wants regularly? thats still not full backing sorry. Full backing would have us sending troops in.

Then you ask "what does the link have do with it"... did you read it? The mortar strikes came AFTER the invasion, not before it. And have you taken the time to compare the destruction done by Israel with that done by Hizbollah?

Who cares about proportionality of damage? hizbollah invaded Israel and took 2 soldier captive. Thats what the rest of the world would consider an act of war.

"Some proof we sent Israel weapons would be nice", omg, this you cannot mean seriously, but here you go: http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html, a very insightful piece from 2002, or this

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGUSA20090402002&lang=e

or etc.... google for it yourself if you are serious about it.

Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

So we sold it to a sovereign nation for their defense, just like we do with other nations. Not sure how this is "us sending them weapons". **** is for sale, people buy it. Nothing wrong with that.

Let me tell you this, on a long term basis, America will endure horrible blows if the Islamic world decids to stick together and put pressure on a country that is already dependant on foreigners financing its ever increasing debt loads.

But the Likudniks shoud be very proud, you are exactly how they have their posterboy American in mind.

Luckily the Islamic world hates each other as much as us, so they never really cooperate.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/080116_olmert.htm

 

[nopeace]

The Islamic world hates American Imperialism in the region. The 9/11 hijackers were motivated by our support of Israel. Stated in the 9/11 commission report.

 

[nopeace]

your total bias against israel really shines here. You first state that they demand we handle it and risk our pilots, then later say Israel is making an excuse to attack its biggest enemy. Which is it here, they want us to do it or do it themselves? They don't need us to do it at all, as they've shown in every military activity they've had since Israel was formed.

And the US is shitting about Iran and nukes, not over missles so much as suitcase bombs. Our borders with mexico and canada are so porous that we have 20 million pounds of marijuana come in a year, it wouldn't be that bad to sneak in a suitcase nuke, even one of just an EMP bomb size. Ahmadinejad has stated publicly that America should die, so its quite reasonable that he would help a plan to destroy "that horrible symbol of western capitalism - Wall Street)" which an EMP bomb would do a spectacular job of.

Israel can not attack Iran successfully. They have modified F-16's F-15's and they will be shot down the the Russian made s-300PMU. Almost the most advanced SAM next to the s-400. That is why they will again pull our puppet strings and get us to risk our pilots.

And they are also making excuses so that we can strike them. Why else is the media really twisting Ahmijened(whatever with his name) words around? Wiping Israel off the map is a complete mistranslation of his language.

The leader of Iran would never be that stupid to attack the US. Much is just fear mongering that they made us swallow.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Moshe Dayan, former Chief of Staff and Minister of Defense, was uninhibited in his summary of the nature of Zionist colonization before students at the Israel Institute of Technology (The Techniyon):

"We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs, and we are building here a Hebrew, Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of these villages and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist. Not only the books, but also the villages do not exist.

Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushu’a in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village."

Moshe Dayan, March 19,1969, Ha’aretz, April 4, 1969

 

[lutherblsstt]

For those who keep conflating Anti-semitism with Anti-zionism we should take a moment to examine the attitude of the Zionist movement not only toward its Palestinian victims (to which we shall return), but toward the Jews themselves.

1.Theodore Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism himself, wrote of the Jews in the following fashion: “I achieved a freer attitude toward anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognized the emptiness and futility of trying to ’combat’ anti-Semitism."

Marvin Lowenthal, ed., The Diaries of Theodor Herzl, p.6. Cited in Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (Westport, Conn.: Lawrence Hill, 1983) p.6.


2. The youth organization of the Zionists, Hashomer Hatzair (young Guard) published the following: "A Jew is a caricature of a normal, natural human being, both physically and spiritually. As an individual in society he revolts and throws off the harness of social obligations, knows no order nor discipline."

From Our Shomer “Weltanschauung”, Hashomer Hatzair, December 1936. Originally published in 1917, Brenner, Zionism, p.22

3.The Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on June 21, 1933. In it the Federation noted:

... a rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life ... must also take place in the Jewish national group.

On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish so to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible ...

Far from repudiating this policy, the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 defeated a resolution calling for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43

Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators



3.There was a common ground between the Nazis and the Zionists.
Vladimir Jabotinsky, in his last work, The Jewish War Front, (l940) wrote of his plans for the Palestinian people:

"Since we have this great moral authority for calmly envisaging the exodus of Arabs, we need not regard the possible departure of 900,000 with dismay. Herr Hitler has recently been enhancing the popularity of population transfer.

Jabotinsky’s remarkable declaration in The Jewish War Front synthesizes Zionist thought and its moral bankruptcy. The slaughter of the Jews gave Zionism "great moral authority". - For what? "For calmly envisaging the exodus of Arabs.” The lesson of Nazi destruction of the Jews was that it was permissible now for Zionists to visit the same fate upon the entire Palestinian population."

Seven years later, the Zionists emulated the Nazis, whose backing they sought and even at times achieved, and they covered bleeding Palestine in multiple Lidices , driving 800,000 people into exile.

 

[EasyEJL]

There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village."

and if the arabs didn't hold title to the land, and were just squatters, why is that a problem?

 

[SpargelJanusz]

luther and nopeace, I guess it's become pretty pointless to continue arguing. As I wrote already, the main mission of the "Israel firsters" ( I hope you read the great article by P.C. Roberts) has been achieved - most Americans sincerely believe Hamas etc. are terror organizations and that Israel only defends itself. EasyJEL is a case in point.

The sad thing here is that it makes fighting America's real enemies so much more difficult when a country that preaches human rights and democracy turns it back on the land robbery and brutal supression of a people, namely the palestinians.

If the american state department had at least shown a tough stance on not allowing the settlements to continue - the first Bush administration called tham what they are, "illegal", but even that is not possible if AIPAC says "Hands off, or we ruin your career".

Pretty sad, but that's how things stand.

Imagine this: you are being robbed of something you own, and then generously offered to negotiate to get part back. If you demand to get it all back and even fight for it, you are a criminal while the robber is a victim that defends himself.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[AE14]

they didnt own it, after it being given to the Israel's you lost it in a fight. Nuff said

 

[EasyEJL]

Imagine this: you are being robbed of something you own, and then generously offered to negotiate to get part back. If you demand to get it all back and even fight for it, you are a criminal while the robber is a victim that defends himself.

That pretty much sums it up.

Who held title to the land? not the Palestinians, sorry, so you can't call it being "robbed of something you own", its more being robbed of something you felt like you owned. Again, just shows their lack of grip on reality.

Do you not find the Hamas childrens TV shows to be criminal alone? Forgetting all the rest? Teaching preschoolers to hate and kill?

 

[nopeace]

Who held title to the land? not the Palestinians, sorry, so you can't call it being "robbed of something you own", its more being robbed of something you felt like you owned. Again, just shows their lack of grip on reality.

Do you not find the Hamas childrens TV shows to be criminal alone? Forgetting all the rest? Teaching preschoolers to hate and kill?

That TV show is wrong, and destroys the credibility of Hamas/Palestine. This kind of crap makes them look utterly stupid! They need to wake up and realize this, along with other mistakes:
- Holding a Koran with an Ak-47. By no means should this be
made a "religious" war, because Islam does not have a good
rep.
- This war should stay political and about human rights. Not the
Allah crap.
- Covering your entire face and looking like a pseudo-ninja, try
to look somewhat at least like a professional soldiers, instead
of guerrillas, islam-radicals.
- No head bands with "jibberish" written on them. Print in
ENGLISH, "FREEDOM" and appeal to the west.
- No more "death to Israel and America rhetoric." They should
adopt freedom and equality as their main goal. Not
destruction.
- Suicide bombings (finally denounced)



But a kids TV show isn't gonna make you hate Israelis as a child.

Watching your friends, Family and houses get destroyed by Israelis will make you hate them to death and want to kill them. Seeing your father arm up and fight will make you want to kill the enemy.

Humans are humans! Palestinians only have their homes in that area, and by removing them you are removing them from their homes.

Jews, Muslims and Christians all coexisted well in this area, It wasn't until Zionism that everything ended, and now you can blame the rise of Zionism for the rise of Terrorism.

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[nopeace]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090401/capt.795fe7b1bdaa40629f802b03ee7beabd.greece_israel_world_cup_soccer_ath109.jpg

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[lutherblsstt]

and if the arabs didn't hold title to the land, and were just squatters, why is that a problem?

According to you they were just squatters.I guess if you follow that logic,if someone comes to the US and has the ability to forcibly remove the inhabitants it's ok as long as they don't "hold title to the land"? Like with the Native Americans?

 

[lutherblsstt]

One of the ideological forbears of Zionism, Vladimir Jabotinsky, is known as the founder of “Revisionist Zionism”, the Zionist current which had little patience with the liberal and socialist facade employed by the “labor” Zionists. [Revisionist Zionism is represented more recently by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.]

In 1923 Jabotinsky wrote The Iron Wall, which could be called a benchmark essay for the entire Zionist movement.

He set forth bluntly the essential premises of Zionism which had, indeed, been laid out before, if not as eloquently, by Theodor Herzl, Chaim Weizmann and others.

Jabotinsky’s reasoning has been cited and reflected in subsequent Zionist advocacy – from nominal “left” to so-called “right”. He wrote as follows:

"There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the native population. Such an event has never occurred.

The natives will always struggle obstinately against the colonists – and it is all the same whether they are cultured or uncultured. The comrades in arms of [Hernan] Cortez or [Francisco] Pizarro conducted themselves like brigands. The Redskins fought with uncompromising fervor against both evil and good-hearted colonizers. The natives struggled because any kind of colonization anywhere at anytime is inadmissible to any native people.

Any native people view their country as their national home, of which they will be complete masters. They will never voluntarily allow a new master. So it is for the Arabs. Compromisers among us try to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked with hidden formulations of our basic goals. I flatly refuse to accept this view of the Palestinian Arabs.

They have the precise psychology that we have. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people will struggle against colonizers until the last spark of hope that they can avoid the dangers of conquest and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians will struggle in this way until there is hardly a spark of hope.

It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization. Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by every Jew and by every Arab.

Colonization has only one goal. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian Arabs and the same condition exists now.

Even an agreement with non-Palestinians represents the same kind of fantasy. In order for Arab nationalists of Baghdad and Mecca and Damascus to agree to pay so serious a price they would have to refuse to maintain the Arab character of Palestine.

We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall through which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.

Whether through the Balfour Declaration or the Mandate, external force is a necessity for establishing in the country conditions of rule and defense through which the local population, regardless of what it wishes, will be deprived of the possibility of impeding our colonization, administratively or physically. Force must play its role – with strength and without indulgence. In this, there are no meaningful differences between our militarists and our vegetarians. One prefers an Iron Wall of Jewish bayonets; the other an Iron Wall of English bayonets.

To the hackneyed reproach that this point of view is unethical, I answer, ’absolutely untrue.’ This is our ethic. There is no other ethic. As long as there is the faintest spark of hope for the Arabs to impede us, they will not sell these hopes – not for any sweet words nor for any tasty morsel, because this is not a rabble but a people, a living people. And no people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions, except when there is no hope left, until we have removed every opening visible in the Iron Wall.

The Iron Wall – “O Zheleznoi Stene” – Rassvet, November 4, 1923

Lenni Brenner, The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism From Jabotinsky to Shamir (London: Zed Books, Ltd., 1984), p.79

 

[nopeace]

It seems to escape everyone the US media is way favorable to Israel. They got all the bible thumpers on their side, all the Right-wingers with tunnel vision, and on top of that even the Left-Wing side is Zionist as well. Our nations is a Zionist nation! We don't even know it! Everyone here still considers Israel our ally in the "war on terror", when in fact our support for them has made us the target for terrorism.

We lost 3000 people on 9/11 for supporting this country(Israel). Is that right at all to anyone? We paid in blood of Americans because Israel has such an "influence" on us that we send our servicemen to die for their security, and yet we bleed the most and far than they'll ever suffer at one time?

Is that Patriotism? As an American shouldn't I be angry? Another country is pushing my country around for their political gains.

The US media shouldn't be biased. Israel wouldn't need a watchdog if there was nothing to cover up.

Brainwashed Americans. If anyone were to watch newscast and listen to pundits from other countries you will see how blatant the bias is.

YouTube - Fox News Bias For Israel in Gaza Conflict?

Here is how American's think thanks to Fox:
Arab = Muslim = Terror = War

Middle Easterners think (and the rest of the world):
Israel = USA = Imperialism = Opression = War

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[EasyEJL]

According to you they were just squatters.I guess if you follow that logic,if someone comes to the US and has the ability to forcibly remove the inhabitants it's ok as long as they don't "hold title to the land"? Like with the Native Americans?

In 1947, Great Britain "owned" Palestine, and the transfer of that ownership to the Israelis was legal in view of the court of the UN.

Looking back to that time, what was envisioned (gasp) was a 2 state solution.

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine was a plan adopted by a decision of the General Assembly on November 29, 1947.[1] The decision facilitated the establishment of two provisional states, one Jewish and one Arab, and provided the framework for a regional economic union. The General Assembly also decided that the City of Jerusalem would be established as a corpus separatum under a special international regime administered by the United Nations. A transitional period under UN auspices started with the adoption of the resolution that provided for gradual withdrawal of British forces, the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine by August 1, 1948, and full independence of the new states by 1 October 1948.

The plan was approved by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions. On March 5, 1948, the United Nations Security Council reached an impasse when it refused to pass a resolution which would have accepted the partition plan as a basis for Security Council action.[2] The United States subsequently recommended a temporary UN trusteeship for Palestine "without prejudice to the character of the eventual political settlement", and the Security Council voted to send the matter back to the General Assembly for further deliberation.[3] The General Assembly decided to appoint a Mediator, and relieved their Palestine Commission from any further exercise of responsibility under resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947.[4]

The UN Resolution is mentioned in Israel's Declaration of Independence as recognizing the right of the Jewish People to establish a state.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png/240px-UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

And yet, the arab nations refused to accept it, attempted to take the land back from israel, which started this whole mess.

Honestly the UN map is retarded, as the 2 states should each be all contiguous, not chopped up like that. But it still could have worked like that. Basically all of the Palestinian "ire" comes from how badly Egypt and Jordan had their asses handed to them in 1967, as they attempted to "take back" the rest of Israel.

The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed the plan.[65]. The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000). [66] Arab leaders also argued a large number of Arabs would be trapped in the Jewish State. Every major Arab leader objected in principle to the right of the Jews to an independent state in Palestine, reflecting the policies of the Arab League.

On May 14th, the day the British Mandate expired, the new Jewish state named the State of Israel announced its formal establishment and the formation of the provisional government. The UN Resolution is mentioned in Israel' Declaration of Independence as recognizing the right of the Jewish People to establish a state. In accordance with the UN Resolution, the Declaration promised that the State of Israel would ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex, and guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.


Eleven minutes after the Declaration of Independence was signed, US President Harry Truman de facto recognized the State of Israel, followed by Iran (which had voted against the UN partition plan), Guatemala, Iceland, Nicaragua, Romania and Uruguay. The Soviet Union was the first nation to recognize Israel de jure on 17 May 1948, followed by Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Ireland and South Africa.[70] The United States extended official recognition on 31 January 1949.[71][72] The Arab League had announced the establishment of a civil administration throughout Palestine on the same day.[73][74]The All-Palestine government did little more than issue passports and raise its own militia, the Holy War Army. The government was eventually recognized by Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.[75]

The declaration was followed by an invasion of the new state by troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known in Israel as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות‎, Milhamat HaAtzma'ut). Although a truce began on 11 June, fighting resumed on 8 July and stopped again on 18 July, before restarting in mid-October and finally ending on 24 July 1949 with the signing of the armistice agreement with Syria. By then Israel had retained its independence and increased its land area by almost 50% compared to the partition plan. Following independence, Moetzet HaAm was transformed into the Provisional State Council, which acted as the legislative body for the new state until the first elections in January 1949.

So again, from day 1 of its existence as a nation, the arab nations assaulted them, refused to accept them as a nation, and created the entire palestinian issue in so doing. Had the lands not been annexed as a part of the varied wars from the arab nations attacking Israel, nobody on the planet would be supportive of them holding them.

 

[EasyEJL]

We lost 3000 people on 9/11 for supporting this country(Israel).

Do you not understand what radical Wahabism is all about? If you are not a muslim, you are subject to death. Pretty simple. They have a million and one excuses to attack anyone who is "impure" by their standards, which includes women showing ankles, listening to music, dancing, etc. They hate us regardless of our support of Israel, as we stretch those boundaries of non-conservatism more than any other country.

 

[nopeace]

Do you not understand what radical Wahabism is all about? If you are not a muslim, you are subject to death. Pretty simple. They have a million and one excuses to attack anyone who is "impure" by their standards, which includes women showing ankles, listening to music, dancing, etc. They hate us regardless of our support of Israel, as we stretch those boundaries of non-conservatism more than any other country.

You think a religious vendetta to get non-muslims is why they would risk an attack that will only draw even more Military actions against the middle east?

You're not aware of the removal of the statement in the 9/11 commission report are you? Or that Osama bin Laden stated that was the reason for the attack. As for all the other videos and crap they record saying "death to Isreal and the US". They might as well throw in death to Canada, Mexico, France and any other "free" country. There are plenty of countries with the same attributes as ours, only coincident is the massive amount of military aid we give them. Other wise I guess they would have just chose an easier target, like Canada.

So despite constant U.S. Involvement in the middle east, massive support for Israel, economic theft, you think it is basically because they're religion is whacked out?

Our Foreign policy is to blame, especially with Israel. The Governement and AIPAC took great steps to fight this from reaching the public. They would never admit in front of a camera that this was in fact the actual reason.

The 9/11 attacks were not some self-righteous anti-freedom, anti-west anti-christian act. They were an act of anti-zionism terrorism.

So our policy with Israel had nothing to do with 9/11?
The Wahabist are just being haterz of freedom and success with nothing better to do but train, finance and orchestrate an attack from a cave?

Even the Mousad was in New York that day. And yes they arrested and detained Israeli "art students" who were later found out to be Mousad.

Ron Paul has stated the attacks were a result of blowback and he was quoting the CIA. Our constant meddling and clearly biased support for an oppressive State is the reason for the attacks.

Why did the Al Quada and the Taliban fight the Soviets? Was it freedom, judeo christian beliefs or simply because their land is their land?

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[nopeace]

YouTube - 9/11 and Wrong Policy, what the 9/11 Commission Report did to us. Tell politicians to stop making a mockery of 9/11 and putting our lives at risk.

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[nopeace]

YouTube - "9/11 Truth Movement" Suppresses Bush Contradiction with Intelligence Agencies: Bush Lies

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[nopeace]

Please everyone stop listening to US Media, this is not a free media, it is controlled and not by anyone who cares about the people of this country.

Quit looking at the world through the eyes of Fox News and stop being spoon fed.

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[AE14]

OK nop, so who is the "man behind the curtain?"

 

[nopeace]

YouTube - Barack Obama at AIPAC

Obama bows down to the puppet masters.

"getting the soldiers back from lebanon is the priority or the United States?

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[AE14]

listen, I am not going to watch your little youtube clips. So in other words, use your own words to tell us all who pulls the strings. Lets try some originality here please

 

[nopeace]

OK nop, so who is the "man behind the curtain?"

The "man behind the curtain" is more than likely the Banking Control over the U.S.

The Federal Reserve is not a Federal Institution.

It is a private bank, that is operated by powerful banking cartels. They rip off the public by the billions. Then print and reprint money that is worthless and charges the US public interest to allow them to have what is essentially our own money.

The income tax is unapportioned and therefor unconstitutional. The income tax is nothing more than PROFITS for the banksters. The income tax does not go to help the military, schools etc. It is the biggest lie since 1913.

Look it up and do research, I'm confident you will be as angry as I am.

Find who is controlling the bank and you will find the real controllers of the United States and many other countries.

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