IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

[lutherblsstt]

When the Israelis hit civilians, it is unintended collateral damage. When the arabs hit civilians, it is deliberate. You know this or you're only kidding yourself.

Again,who told you this?

Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, wrote:

Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left

Joseph Weitz, A Solution to the Refugee Problem, Davar, September 29, 1967. Cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mezvinsky, eds, Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21

Also: http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2006/10/119696.pdf

`In October 1956, Israeli Brigadier Shadmi, the commander of a battalion on the Israeli-Jordanian border, ordered a night curfew imposed on the “minority” [Arab] villages under his command. These villages were inside the Israeli borders; thus, their inhabitants were Israeli citizens. Shadmi told the commander of a Frontier Guard unit, Major Melinki, that the curfew must be “extremely strict” and that “it would not be enough to arrest those who broke it – they must be shot.” He added:

A dead man is better than the complications of detention.

He [Melinki] informed the assembled officers that ... their task was to impose the curfew in the minority villages from 1700 to 0600 [5 p.m. to 6 a.m.] ... Anyone leaving his home, or anyone breaking the curfew should be shot dead. He added that there were to be no arrests and that if a number of people were killed in the night this would facilitate the imposition of the curfew during succeeding nights.

Lieutenant Frankanthal asked him: “What do we do with the wounded?” Melinki replied: “Take no notice of them.”

A section leader, then asked: “What about women and children?” to which Melinki replied: “No sentimentality.” When asked: “What about people returning from their work?” Melinki answered: “It will be just too bad for them, as the Commander said.”

The perpetrators of the Kafr Qasim massacre – a commando unit of Ariel Sharon-Commando Unit 101 – were all rewarded with medals and with promotions in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).`

From the court records: Judgments of the District Court: The Military Prosecutor vs. Malor Melinki et. al., Rokach, p.66.

 

[nopeace]

Again,who told you this?

Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, wrote:

Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left

Joseph Weitz, A Solution to the Refugee Problem, Davar, September 29, 1967. Cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mezvinsky, eds, Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21

Also: http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2006/10/119696.pdf

`In October 1956, Israeli Brigadier Shadmi, the commander of a battalion on the Israeli-Jordanian border, ordered a night curfew imposed on the “minority” [Arab] villages under his command. These villages were inside the Israeli borders; thus, their inhabitants were Israeli citizens. Shadmi told the commander of a Frontier Guard unit, Major Melinki, that the curfew must be “extremely strict” and that “it would not be enough to arrest those who broke it – they must be shot.” He added:

A dead man is better than the complications of detention.

He [Melinki] informed the assembled officers that ... their task was to impose the curfew in the minority villages from 1700 to 0600 [5 p.m. to 6 a.m.] ... Anyone leaving his home, or anyone breaking the curfew should be shot dead. He added that there were to be no arrests and that if a number of people were killed in the night this would facilitate the imposition of the curfew during succeeding nights.

Lieutenant Frankanthal asked him: “What do we do with the wounded?” Melinki replied: “Take no notice of them.”

A section leader, then asked: “What about women and children?” to which Melinki replied: “No sentimentality.” When asked: “What about people returning from their work?” Melinki answered: “It will be just too bad for them, as the Commander said.”

The perpetrators of the Kafr Qasim massacre – a commando unit of Ariel Sharon-Commando Unit 101 – were all rewarded with medals and with promotions in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).`

From the court records: Judgments of the District Court: The Military Prosecutor vs. Malor Melinki et. al., Rokach, p.66.

****ed up ****.


The arab world hates the US for supporting Israel and for exploiting their resources. Jihad is just a bi-product of the US creating the mujahideen.

 

[nopeace]

How can they "accidently" hit civilians? This is so blind sided, they fired shells at UN schools multiple times knowing full well there were children and women in those schools. Why hit it with white phosphorus? Did they really feel good burning 38 women and children to the bone?

People seem to think the IDF is some care-loving humanitarian army. No matter even if former IAF and IDF servicemen admit to war crimes on film, people still cover for Israel.

 

[devil]

What rules of engagement are being followed by Hamas when they specifically fire rockets at civilian targets???

 

[JassUSMC]

IDF is an amazing fighting force. I idolize them. Lucky for me, i'm going to get to train with them.

 

[nopeace]

What rules of engagement are being followed by Hamas when they specifically fire rockets at civilian targets???

It was reaction to Israel breaking cease fire. the IDF targets almost anyone especially homes.

 

[nopeace]

IDF is an amazing fighting force. I idolize them. Lucky for me, i'm going to get to train with them.

I dont disagree with you on this one.

 

[devil]

You don't seem to understand the history of Gaza. The rocket fire started immediately following israel's with drawl from Gaza. Hamas targets civilians as a standard practice. Furthermore, they frequently fire these rockets at israeli civilian locations from densly populated Palestinian areas. I'm not really sure what Israeli response would satisfy people such as yourself.

I lived in Israel when the Gaza border was open. My dad worked in Tel Aviv with a ton of Palestinian guys from Gaza. Israeli citizens frequently entered Gaza for day trips with zero fear for their safety. The tactics of Hamas changed all of this. People make it sound as if israel gets some special kick out of making the lives of Gaza residents unpleasant. The simple reality is that the Palestinian powers that be have made some appalling decisions.

 

[poison]

How can they "accidently" hit civilians? This is so blind sided, they fired shells at UN schools multiple times knowing full well there were children and women in those schools.

No, they did not fire at the schools; in one instance they fired at the Hamas aholes who were firing rockets outside the school, in the other, they did not fire inside the school, and the UN recanted their initial claim.

Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling says he heard three loud blasts, one after the other, then a lot of screaming. "I ran in the direction of the screaming [inside the compound]," he said. "I could see some of the people had been injured, cut. I picked up one girl who was bleeding by her eye, and ran out on the street to get help."But when I got outside, it was crazy hell. There were bodies everywhere, people dead, injured, flesh everywhere."

The teacher, who refused to give his name because he said UNRWA had told the staff not to talk to the news media, was adamant: "Inside [the compound] there were 12 injured, but there were no dead."

"Three of my students were killed," he said. "But they were all outside."

Hazem Balousha, who runs an auto-body shop across the road from the UNRWA school, was down the street, just out of range of the shrapnel, when the three shells hit. He showed a reporter where they landed: one to the right of his shop, one to the left, and one right in front.

"There were only three," he said. "They were all out here on the road."

John Ging, UNRWA's operations director in Gaza, acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school and that "no one was killed in the school."

Why hit it with white phosphorus? Did they really feel good burning 38 women and children to the bone?

Hit 'it'? Hit what? They didn't hit any schools with WP, let alone kill 38 women and kids in an isolated incident.

People seem to think the IDF is some care-loving humanitarian army. No matter even if former IAF and IDF servicemen admit to war crimes on film, people still cover for Israel.

Cover for Israel? Listen close: Israel sustained a barrage of rockets into civilian areas for 3 years, laying waste to a whole region. A generation of Israeli kids wets their beds at 12yo. NO OTHER country would've sat around with their **** in their hand for 3 years, especially when the rocket barrage started AFTER making concessions, and pulling Israelis out of their homes by force and giving Gaza to the Palestinians.

The Gaza op was ugly. If you've ever been to Gaza, or know ANYTHING about it, you'll know it's one of the most densely populated places on earth. Hamas was illegally smuggling weapons and terrorist expertise over those 3 years, and had time to prepare for Israel.

No one, not another army on the face of this earth, could've conducted this operation with as few casualties as Israel did, given the population density, the asymetric warfare, and blatant use of human shields by Hamas.

To gain a little perspective, the Battle of FAllujah was on a smaller scale, yet produced many times more casualties, despite the fact that the US ordered all civilians out, unlike Gaza.

Fallujah suffered extensive damage to residences, mosques, city services, and businesses. The city, once referred to as the "City of Mosques", had over 200 pre-battle mosques of which 60 or so were destroyed in the fighting. Perhaps half the homes suffered at least some damage. Of the roughly 50,000 buildings in Fallujah, between 7,000 and 10,000 were estimated to have been destroyed in the offensive and from half to two-thirds of the remaining buildings had notable damage.[16][17]

While pre-offensive inhabitant figures are unreliable, the nominal population was assumed to have been 200,000–350,000. One report claims that both offensives, Operation Vigilant Resolve and Operation Phantom Fury, created 200,000 internally displaced persons who are still living elsewhere in Iraq.[18] Reports claim that up to 6000 civilians died throughout the operation.[19] While damage to mosques was heavy, Coalition forces reported that 66 out of the city's 133 mosques had been found to be holding significant amounts of insurgent weapons[20].

In other words, Israel handled Gaza with kid gloves, by ANY standard.

On the other hand, we have the UNRWA shielding Hamas terrorists:

I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime... we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another.

Then we have Hamas using human shields:

YouTube - hamas using boy as human shield
YouTube - Hamas admits it uses human shields

And killing, torturing, and injuring their own:

YouTube - Shocking testimonials about HAMAS

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230733155685

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations.

The sources quoted Hamas officials as saying that the decision to kill the suspected collaborators was taken out of fear that Israel might try to rescue them during a ground offensive.

And you complain about Israel? Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Zero V]

You want an honest, simple solution? Nuke both of em. Complete Nation wipe out, nothing left of either. Problem solved no?

This war wont end, and even if it did another would sprout up. Civilians are being murdered, wrongs are committed. Well honestly the ONLY way to stop this is to make an example of both of em. I dont believe for a second either one is the good guys, they are both wolves on the hunt.

Either leave em to themselves to fight, or wipe out both of them ruthlessly, otherwise your just wasting time and energy.

 

[poison]

If you are going to argue for one side at least consider the otherside. When you view the conflict you will gross violations against human rights. A very oppresive regime and a violent army.

You know nothing about the IDF, apart from what you read in blogs. You are wrong.

Of all the 87 suicide bombers 84 had a family killed or permanently disfigured by the IDF, so ask why is this conflict happening?

Why is it happening? The Brits divided British land in two, and gave the Jews and ARabs each a part. THe Jews said 'thanks', the ARabs attacked. Not just Palestinians, but nearly EVERY ARAB COUNTRY. ORLY? What did Iraq or Syria have to do with it, besides nothing? Oh, that's right, it turned into a massive attempted gang-bang because they hate Jews. Nazi-freakin-collaborators.

Why do you keep saying that rockets and bombs are their only resources in this fight? Fact: both sides know the only way to resolve it is by following Ghandi and MLK. What is stopping them from setting down the weapons, and marching on Jerusalem en masse, peacefully? I guarantee they'd have a state in a month flat. It's been discussed on both sides.

So why not? They don't want peace, they don't want to live side-by-side, they want Jews dead. Hamas, with their sweet, cuddly charter, didn't come into power by chance.

Stop assuming one side is right, because BOTH are wrong.

Moral equivalency is fun, huh?

Start seeing a conflict that is 60 years old. Palestinians come in all religions, Muslim, Christian and Jew (in some cases) and people fail to realize that it's people that are being slaughtered, [most American's love the notion of slaughtering Muslims by the thousands down to even the children, but there are Christians among them who are being oppressed.

Hey, fukctard, watch your mouth.

AIPAC loves to appeal to the brainwashed evangelicals, and even some christian factions have denounced Israel and it's zionist regime. Look at our news and the opinion of the rest of the world. People attach their christian faith to this, but how can you support some of the crimes Israel is committing?

Israel has committed crimes, yes. So has every country. Gaza was not one of them. This is not justification, it's simply fact. This fact is not a basis to slander or pull out the anti-semitic bull****.

Bombing a school with white phosphorous and burning 38 people mostly children alive?

Bull****.

And injuring another 200? After they were clearly told it was a UN safehouse? At what point do some of Israel's actions become unacceptable by the same measure we hold Hamas' actions unacceptable?

You cannot equate the two. Israel attacked Gaza to stop the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. Hamas chose the battleground, as well as the terms for the battle. Israel was not given a choice but to fight a battle in a densely populated civilian battle, where Hamas hid behind women and kids, fired rockets from schools and hospitals, used Red Crescent ambulances as taxis, wired the homes of non-combatants with explosive while they were inside, etc.

It's like saying the guy who shoots an armed mugger should go to jail because he used the same methods the mugger attempted to use.

See, the IDF's job was not to use equivalent force. 1) that would mean the IDF indiscriminately shelling civilians, and I don't think any of us want that, and 2) that would entail MORE casualties and damage in the long run. Why? Because it would ensure a long, drawn out tit-for-tat cycle of violence. Think about it: Palestinians lob a rocket, Israel lobs a rocket back. Palestinians kill a mom and baby, the IAF is scrambled to find a mom and baby target. THAT'S equivalent, and that's retarded.

The IDF's job was to STOP the rockets. Once given the orders, their job is to carry out the orders as quickly and safely as possible, for both Israelis and Palestinians. This they did.

 

[poison]

You want an honest, simple solution? Nuke both of em. Complete Nation wipe out, nothing left of either. Problem solved no?

As if anyone has the right. That's the lazy man's solution, the solution of a man who is either too lazy to try to gain understanding of the situation, or one who simply doesn't care.

This war wont end, and even if it did another would sprout up. Civilians are being murdered, wrongs are committed. Well honestly the ONLY way to stop this is to make an example of both of em. I dont believe for a second either one is the good guys, they are both wolves on the hunt.

Either leave em to themselves to fight, or wipe out both of them ruthlessly, otherwise your just wasting time and energy.

Don't care, wanna ignore em? Your prerogative, and a very good one. No one said you have to care.

Deciding a nuke is the appropriate answer is just dumb.

 

[Zero V]

As if anyone has the right. That's the lazy man's solution, the solution of a man who is either too lazy to try to gain understanding of the situation, or one who simply doesn't care.



Don't care, wanna ignore em? Your prerogative, and a very good one. No one said you have to care.

Deciding a nuke is the appropriate answer is just dumb.

Thats kind of the point. Its either dont get involved, or get involved and do the only thing that would make a difference. Political red tape is BS. Either that or we could just rush in there pretending to be helping them but rally helping ourselves? I mean its worked for the last 3-4 wars.

 

[poison]

Thats kind of the point. Its either dont get involved, or get involved and do the only thing that would make a difference. Political red tape is BS. Either that or we could just rush in there pretending to be helping them but rally helping ourselves? I mean its worked for the last 3-4 wars.

If you think a nuke is the only answer, you need to read more. And the US does use Israel a much as it can, no problem there.

 

[jpcf]

You know nothing about the IDF, apart from what you read in blogs. You are wrong.




Why do you keep saying that rockets and bombs are their only resources in this fight? Fact: both sides know the only way to resolve it is by following Ghandi and MLK. What is stopping them from setting down the weapons, and marching on Jerusalem en masse, peacefully? I guarantee they'd have a state in a month flat. It's been discussed on both sides.

So why not? They don't want peace, they don't want to live side-by-side, they want Jews dead. Hamas, with their sweet, cuddly charter, didn't come into power by chance.



Moral equivalency is fun, huh?



Hey, fukctard, watch your mouth.



Israel has committed crimes, yes. So has every country. Gaza was not one of them. This is not justification, it's simply fact. This fact is not a basis to slander or pull out the anti-semitic bull****.



Bull****.



You cannot equate the two. Israel attacked Gaza to stop the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. Hamas chose the battleground, as well as the terms for the battle. Israel was not given a choice but to fight a battle in a densely populated civilian battle, where Hamas hid behind women and kids, fired rockets from schools and hospitals, used Red Crescent ambulances as taxis, wired the homes of non-combatants with explosive while they were inside, etc.

It's like saying the guy who shoots an armed mugger should go to jail because he used the same methods the mugger attempted to use.

See, the IDF's job was not to use equivalent force. 1) that would mean the IDF indiscriminately shelling civilians, and I don't think any of us want that, and 2) that would entail MORE casualties and damage in the long run. Why? Because it would ensure a long, drawn out tit-for-tat cycle of violence. Think about it: Palestinians lob a rocket, Israel lobs a rocket back. Palestinians kill a mom and baby, the IAF is scrambled to find a mom and baby target. THAT'S equivalent, and that's retarded.

The IDF's job was to STOP the rockets. Once given the orders, their job is to carry out the orders as quickly and safely as possible, for both Israelis and Palestinians. This they did.

:clap2::clap2::clap2:

You really deserve all the rep that i can give you. I really know what you mean but try to explain all this to a bunch of people like nopeace and luther who think they know a lot about this subject because they can quote and search on the internet all they say, instead of telling that what you know comes from personal expirience (i am an idf reservist and my some of myfamily lives in Israel, I was there in December: Cast Lead).
Theres another guy in this thread that also lived in Israel.

 

[nopeace]

Israel has been charged with using human shields. 2005 their supreme court had to rule against the use of human shields. There is footage of them using 11 year old boys to enter homes.

 

[nopeace]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNKIEGzQOtw"]YouTube - Hard Not To Be Angry With Israel[/ame]

 

[nopeace]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gX6AFOCuDg"]YouTube - UN calls for war crime investigation[/ame]
UN accuses IDF of war crime.

 

[nopeace]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm
Amnesty international slams Israel for war crimes.

 

[nopeace]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1
Human shield use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6554487.stm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/israel-used-human-shields-amnesty-20090702-d6j2.html

Israeli booby trap kills 5 children
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1363364/Booby-trap-suspected-of-killing-Arab-boys.html
Israeli media reporting use of human shields
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
Israel bans human shield use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314898.stm

 

[nopeace]

You cannot equate the two. Israel attacked Gaza to stop the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. Hamas chose the battleground, as well as the terms for the battle. Israel was not given a choice but to fight a battle in a densely populated civilian battle, where Hamas hid behind women and kids, fired rockets from schools and hospitals, used Red Crescent ambulances as taxis, wired the homes of non-combatants with explosive while they were inside, etc.

It's like saying the guy who shoots an armed mugger should go to jail because he used the same methods the mugger attempted to use.

See, the IDF's job was not to use equivalent force. 1) that would mean the IDF indiscriminately shelling civilians, and I don't think any of us want that, and 2) that would entail MORE casualties and damage in the long run. Why? Because it would ensure a long, drawn out tit-for-tat cycle of violence. Think about it: Palestinians lob a rocket, Israel lobs a rocket back. Palestinians kill a mom and baby, the IAF is scrambled to find a mom and baby target. THAT'S equivalent, and that's retarded.

The IDF's job was to STOP the rockets. Once given the orders, their job is to carry out the orders as quickly and safely as possible, for both Israelis and Palestinians. This they did.

Israel broke the cease fire by attacking tunnels and starting their blockades. Hamas didn't decide to fire rockets for no reason they fired in response.

IDF does shell civilians with white phosphorus and flachete shells. As they have been repeatedly accused of these actions.

Hamas does not hide behind women and children. It's a god damn city and they can't leave.

Please post resources showing that they fired rockets from hospitals and schools.

So if Israel uses an 11 year old as a human shield its okay?

In my opinion IDF and Hamas are both scum forces. Even IDF soldiers are refusing to serve in an army of occupation.

 

[nopeace]

At least hold the IDF accountable for their crimes. The UN, Amnesty International and the Red Cross do...

 

[poison]

Israel has been charged with using human shields. 2005 their supreme court had to rule against the use of human shields. There is footage of them using 11 year old boys to enter homes.

I'm not going to justify the use of human shields by anyone. I will, however, explain what they did. Soldiers would be serving a warrant on a home to arrest a terrorist; they'd send a kid to knock on the door and tell him to come out or face the consequences. This saved Israeli troops lives, as a soldier walking up would get blown up.

The difference between Israel and the Palestinians: Israel has a supreme court which decides moral decisions, and a people who enforce those decisions.

In addition, the US military has been known to do the same under similar circumstances.

Again, not a humane practice, but not quite the same as firing from behind a woman, or building rockets under schools, or firing from civilians houses.

 

[poison]

Israel broke the cease fire by attacking tunnels

lolwut? Those tunnels were/are illegal, crossed international borders against two sovreign countries wishes, and broke the ceasefire.

and starting their blockades. Hamas didn't decide to fire rockets for no reason they fired in response.

IDF does shell civilians with white phosphorus and flachete shells. As they have been repeatedly accused of these actions.

Hamas does not hide behind women and children. It's a god damn city and they can't leave.

Again, go read the account of the Battle of Falluja, then try to figure out why you are pissed at Israel for being far more humane under far more difficult circumstances.

Hamas leaders hid while kids fought their battle. Their bunker was under a hospital. Hamas fired from civilians houses, shot rockets from peoples backyards, and boobytrapped peoples houses with the residents inside.

Please post resources showing that they fired rockets from hospitals and schools.

I already have.

So if Israel uses an 11 year old as a human shield its okay?

No, it's not. Hence the law banning it.

In my opinion IDF and Hamas are both scum forces. Even IDF soldiers are refusing to serve in an army of occupation.

No, they're not, no more than usual, or any other armed force.

 

[nopeace]

YouTube - Palestinian Children Beaten by Israeli Soldier

I dont know why this is necessary.

 

[roids1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1
Human shield use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6554487.stm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/israel-used-human-shields-amnesty-20090702-d6j2.html

Israeli booby trap kills 5 children
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1363364/Booby-trap-suspected-of-killing-Arab-boys.html
Israeli media reporting use of human shields
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
Israel bans human shield use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314898.stm

It's interesting how groups like amnesty international only complain when the there are allegations of the Israelis doing things like this. Yet, when Hamas and other islamic radical groups use human shields or deliberately bomb civilians, as the regularly do, these same human rights groups never have much to say. The fact that the Israelis are held to ssuch a higher standard certainly says a lot about them.

 

[poison]

YouTube - Palestinian Children Beaten by Israeli Soldier

I dont know why this is necessary.

I don't either. But do you know that it was unnecessary? If you pull up to my checkpoint, I'm telling you to turn around, and you're not cooperating, or mouthing off...dunno. Why was that cart being filmed? Was it a setup? Did that cart harrass that soldier multiple times, in order to finally elicit a response on film? Why is there only that incident on film, if those soldiers are so horribly violent? You'd think they'd sit there all day, over over some time, and catch multiple incidents.

Because, you know, Pallywood operates in full force.

YouTube - Pallywood


bwaahaaahaa. I dealt with this crap when I was in Hebron for 9 months. Bottom line: I showed respect to the locals, ignored the guy shadowing me with a cam, and did what I needed to do to fulfill my mission statement (and sometimes broke the rules in the Palestinians favor; yes, she could've been a suicide bomber, but my gut said no, so I let the apparently distressed, pregnant lady through during a curfew, etc. Interestingly, the guy with the cam killed ANY possibility of me allowing the aforementioned scenario, as I WAS breaking the rules).

What you anti-Israel retards don't use is reason. Any time you put people in contact with people, there's going to be friction, the occasional loose cannon on both sides, and a certain percentage of bad 'transactions' or interactions. It's no different than cops; Rodney King was not the first, and not nearly the last, police brutality charge.

The situation in Israel is difficult and volitile. Considering the millions of interactions between IDF troops and Palestinians daily, the number of unfavorable ones is very low.

 

[poison]

Report: Hamas says Israel sending aphrodisiac gum to 'corrupt' Gaza youth
By JPOST.COM STAFF
Print Subscribe
E-mail Toolbar

+ Recommend:
facebook del.icio.us reddit newsvine fark
What's this?
Decrease text size Decrease text size
Increase text size Increase text size

Hamas accused Israel of distributing chewing gum which boosts sex drive in order to "corrupt the young generation," according to an official quoted in an AFP report on Tuesday.

Hamas police spokesman Islam Shahwan said, "We have discovered two types of stimulants that were introduced into the Gaza Strip from Israeli border crossings… The first type is presented in the form of chewing gum and the second in the form of drops."

The official said that suspects were detained who admitted to helping bring the products into the Strip, and that they were "linked to the Zionist intelligence services."

There was no official comment from the IDF on the accusations, though a military source was quoted by AFP as calling them "absurd."

 

[lutherblsstt]

Israeli Soldiers Refuse To Serve In Palestine: Part 1

YouTube - Israeli Soldiers Refuse To Serve In Palestine: Part 1 (2002)

 

[lutherblsstt]

Palestine Is Still The Issue by John Pilger

YouTube - Palestine Is Still The Issue by John Pilger Part 1 Of 6

 

[poison]

What's your point, luther? People refuse to serve in every military, all the time, peace or war. The number of Israelis who refuse is very low, especially when the fact that it's a mandatory service, as opposed to an all-volunteer service like the US. Speaking of which, did you know that there's an epidemic on the rise in the US?

Dahr Jamail,author of the article “Refusing to Comply: The Tactics of Resistance in an All-Volunteer Military,” discusses the increasing disillusionment among soldiers for Iraq and Afghanistan war justifications, the tactics of evading dangerous and pointless “IED lottery” patrols, Pentagon estimates of 25-40 thousand AWOL soldiers since 2003 and how the U.S. economic downturn is preventing a large organized war resistance from taking hold within the military.

http://dissentradio.com/radio/09_07_03_jamail.mp3

Oh, wait, that's YOUR post. Here's some more:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dahr-jamail/refusing-to-comply-the-ta_b_223799.html

So, 40k US soldiers are AWOL, and you believe a scattered few in Israel make some sort of statement about malcontent among the IDF, or Israel itself, with Israeli policy?

Israel has exactly 628 refuseniks. At any given time there are ~185,000 active Israeli soldiers, and 30k active reserve troops, for a total of 215,000 soldiers. The 628 is not the number of refusniks at any given time, it's the total number in the country. Now take into account that israel can call up all reserves and raise a million man army in 72 hours, the 628 is trifling. And a majority of the 628 WOULD fight if it were an existential threat, a la war with Syria or Iran.

What was your point again?

I'm not done. What happens to Palestinian refuseniks? Don't know? I'll tell you. They're dragged out of their homes, in front of their families, and shot in the street.

Did you have a point? I'm not sure, so I'll continue.

Do you know how Israel treats the refuseniks? Well, let's preface that by asking how OTHER militaries deals with those who refuse: the US military WILL court martial, you may serve prison time and/or be dishonorably discharged (with execution being a possibility in actual war); Russia has a 15% refusal rate, and they prosecute hundreds every year. So back to the question: what does Israel do? In keeping with 'the most liberal country in the Middle EAst' (and more liberal than many other western countries), they do...nothing. Well, that's not true. They print the soldiers petition to the gov't in the biggest paper in Israel; they are interviewed on prime-time TV. THey are given a voice, and their opinion is taken into account, discussed, and their dissidence is respected.

Not shot. Not court marshaled. Not ridiculed. All 628 of them.

Your point was?

 

[lutherblsstt]

What's your point, luther? People refuse to serve in every military, all the time, peace or war. The number of Israelis who refuse is very low, especially when the fact that it's a mandatory service, as opposed to an all-volunteer service like the US. Speaking of which, did you know that there's an epidemic on the rise in the US?



Oh, wait, that's YOUR post. Here's some more:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dahr-jamail/refusing-to-comply-the-ta_b_223799.html

So, 40k US soldiers are AWOL, and you believe a scattered few in Israel make some sort of statement about malcontent among the IDF, or Israel itself, with Israeli policy?

Israel has exactly 628 refuseniks. At any given time there are ~185,000 active Israeli soldiers, and 30k active reserve troops, for a total of 215,000 soldiers. The 628 is not the number of refusniks at any given time, it's the total number in the country. Now take into account that israel can call up all reserves and raise a million man army in 72 hours, the 628 is trifling. And a majority of the 628 WOULD fight if it were an existential threat, a la war with Syria or Iran.

What was your point again?

I'm not done. What happens to Palestinian refuseniks? Don't know? I'll tell you. They're dragged out of their homes, in front of their families, and shot in the street.

Did you have a point? I'm not sure, so I'll continue.

Do you know how Israel treats the refuseniks? Well, let's preface that by asking how OTHER militaries deals with those who refuse: the US military WILL court martial, you may serve prison time and/or be dishonorably discharged (with execution being a possibility in actual war); Russia has a 15% refusal rate, and they prosecute hundreds every year. So back to the question: what does Israel do? In keeping with 'the most liberal country in the Middle EAst' (and more liberal than many other western countries), they do...nothing. Well, that's not true. They print the soldiers petition to the gov't in the biggest paper in Israel; they are interviewed on prime-time TV. THey are given a voice, and their opinion is taken into account, discussed, and their dissidence is respected.

Not shot. Not court marshaled. Not ridiculed. All 628 of them.

Your point was?

Let us read what the actual soldiers said since you obviously failed to watch the show;

"In May of 2002 CBS interviewed Israeli Soldiers who conscientiously refused to serve in the occupied/stolen land in Palestine. They drafted a letter to explain their grievances.

January 2002, a group of Israeli reserve officers and combat soldiers returned from their duty in the Gaza strip, and drafted a letter that would change they way Israelis conceive the military control of the occupied territories. This document came to be known as the Combatant's Letter:

* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, self-sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty in the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

* We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides,

* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Occupied Territories destroy all the values that we were raised upon,

* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society,

* We, who know that the Territories are not a part of Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated,

* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving the Israel Defense Force in any mission that serves Israel's defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose -- and we shall take no part in them."

Israeli Soldiers against the Occupation:
http://www.combatantsforpeace.org/
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/...
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2008/04...
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp...
http://www.calpeacepower.org/0101/ref...
http://www.seruv.org.il/english/defau...

 

[poison]

Let us read what the actual soldiers said since you obviously failed to watch the show;

I've seen that video before. I read Israeli news, I read the soldiers statement years ago. I've been on their site a long time ago.

There were originally 200 of them, and in the 7 years since, they've only garnered another 450; this, in a country with a million man army.

They're viewpoint is valid, it's their opinion, and they're entitled to it. But it certainly is not indicative of a growing trend, the IDF, or Israel as a whole.

You're using the testimony of a minute fraction of Israeli soldiers, a far smaller fraction of dissidents than nearly any other military, and trying to show some kind of inference on israels policies and people: "hey, if real IDF soldiers themselves are complaining, it MUST be bad!!1!!1" Go back and read by previous post carefully. The refuseniks mean NOTHING.


BTW, the original group which spurred the organized 'refuseniks' was bitching about Gaza, which israel no longer controls. THey gave it up in 2005. :lol: Again, a non-point.

 

[lutherblsstt]

I've seen that video before. I read Israeli news, I read the soldiers statement years ago. I've been on their site a long time ago.

There were originally 200 of them, and in the 7 years since, they've only garnered another 450; this, in a country with a million man army.

They're viewpoint is valid, it's their opinion, and they're entitled to it. But it certainly is not indicative of a growing trend, the IDF, or Israel as a whole.

You're using the testimony of a minute fraction of Israeli soldiers, a far smaller fraction of dissidents than nearly any other military, and trying to show some kind of inference on israels policies and people: "hey, if real IDF soldiers themselves are complaining, it MUST be bad!!1!!1" Go back and read by previous post carefully. The refuseniks mean NOTHING.


BTW, the original group which spurred the organized 'refuseniks' was bitching about Gaza, which israel no longer controls. THey gave it up in 2005. :lol: Again, a non-point.

From 2009

former Israeli Air Force Captain

YouTube - OMG! One Honest Israeli!!!!!!! Yonatan Schapira!


UK Jewish MP

YouTube - UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza


YouTube - BBC argues with Israeli Spokesman over UN School Bombing

 

[lutherblsstt]

What's your point, luther? People refuse to serve in every military, all the time, peace or war. The number of Israelis who refuse is very low, especially when the fact that it's a mandatory service, as opposed to an all-volunteer service like the US. Speaking of which, did you know that there's an epidemic on the rise in the US?

The point is that there is a rising tide of resistance,whether you admit it or not.

From 2009

Israelis Soldiers refuse to serve in Gaza
YouTube - Israelis Soldiers refuse to serve in Gaza

 

[lutherblsstt]

If Americans Knew:

YouTube - If Americans Knew What Israel Is Doing! VIDEO WAS CENSORED!

 

[poison]

Did you read my posts? There are 628 refuseniks. 628, that's the number. There are 220k standing soldiers at any give time, a possible 1 million, and 628 refuseniks. Your speaker/author says there are 40k American 'refuseniks' right now.

Where's the statement being made? It ain't Israel

 

[lutherblsstt]

Did you read my posts? There are 628 refuseniks. 628, that's the number. There are 220k standing soldiers at any give time, a possible 1 million, and 628 refuseniks. Your speaker/author says there are 40k American 'refuseniks' right now.

Where's the statement being made? It ain't Israel

Israeli 'draft dodgers' protest occupation
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/24/2042140.htm

"Army statistics show the number of young people who do not enlist for military service has crept up in recent years to more than one in four men in 2007 and more than 43 per cent of women."

 

[poison]

Israeli 'draft dodgers' protest occupation
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/24/2042140.htm

"Army statistics show the number of young people who do not enlist for military service has crept up in recent years to more than one in four men in 2007 and more than 43 per cent of women."

Pretty sweet selective edit there. The article actually says:

Ultra-Orthodox Jews have been exempt from military service for years and their ranks are growing.

But more secular Israelis are also finding ways around joining up, sometimes by saying they are conscientious objectors or unfit.

Some say they are loath to fight for an occupying force and are willing to go to jail for their beliefs.

Others say they do not trust Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's government with their lives, after a report said the leader acted impulsively in going to war against Lebanon last year.

Some young Israelis would simply rather focus on their education or career than on defending their country.

The article skews the facts. When israel was founded, and for the next 40 years, there was an existential threat to Israel, and for a majority of that time there was a shortage of bodies, hence the mandatory draft of both men and women.

Over the years, as Israel becomes stronger and more advanced, and the population grows, the need became less. There are enough people to draft to allow for individuals personal needs. 20 years ago, you could not want all you want, you were going in. Now, there are enough to hand pick the highly motived citizens, and leave those who might be problematic physically, mentally, or otherwise.

For example, Israel always had a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy toward gays, until 1993, when they allowed them to serve openly. Before 1993, a gay could quietly serve if he wished, OR receive a pass on military service if he so desired. Now they can openly serve, or not, if they so desire. So when I first came to Israel, I met a few guys of the draft age, who didn't want to serve. They simply weren't into giving up 3 years of their lives, and preferred to party. They claimed to be gay to receive a pass on service.

So, as you see, there are lots of reasons someone might refuse to serve. 99% are for selfish or personal reasons, not because they disagree with policy. Those who disagree with policy are called refuseniks, as I've stated, and once again, number is 628-633:

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

This guy serve next to me in the IDF 101st Airborne. Our platoon of 22 guys met at his house on weekends off to have a BBQ and relax. I slept next to the guy for 3 years.

We Will Not Continue to Occupy, Destroy, Deport, Kill, Starve and Humiliate By Yedioth Ahronoth eMail to a friend
Return to Zionist FAQ

Posted on March 31, 2002

Yedioth Ahronoth (p. M18) by Haim Tal -- [Jan. 25] Shuki Sadeh, 25, a university student from Kfar Bilu and a staff sergeant in reserves, returned from reserve duty in Khan Yunis a month ago. It was only when he saw combat soldiers implementing the "warning shot procedure" on Palestinian children, that he realized how indifferent the battalion was toward human life. When a young boy approaches a distance of 100 meters from the outpost, shots are to be fired 50 meters to his right or left, even if he just wants to play or lay a trap for birds. "Once a sniper in the outpost hit a child from a distance of 150 meters," Sadeh relates. "I had a feeling the matter was whitewashed. What angered me is that among our soldiers, they talked about another dead Arab, while those who think like me simply said nothing. There is an atmosphere of `let's get `em.' A kind of poison that I didn't see even in Lebanon."

Shuki's a good guy, very smart, and a dedicated soldier. I find his take interesting, as it did not happen in our 3 years together, not once. He's not lying; I know, because I know him well. It must have happened in his yearly reserve duty later on. But Shuki is the only guy from my draft of 500 paratroopers who is a refusenik, the only guy who sees things this way. Not surprising, because he was a hippy peacenik even before the army, and obviously views the experience through his personal glasses, the filter of his upbringing and life experience.

If you analyze what he says, it's telling. He wasn't angered that the kid was shot. Many times kids are used to transport or plant bombs, and sometimes to carry out attacks. All Palestinian kids know to stay away from IDF posts; not because the soldiers are mean, but because when a kid blew himself up last week outside the outpost, the soldiers are going to be very wary, and use whatever means tokeep them away. Shuki knows this very well, so he understands the situation in which the kid was shot.

What angered him was the attitude of the soldier/s who shot him. Here's a small tidbit about the military and the psychology of killing: 99% of people don't want to kill. The militaries job is to teach you to over-ride the basic human instinct not to kill, and enable you to pull the trigger. In WWI, millions of rounds were fired over the heads of opposing soldiers ON PURPOSE, because the soldiers were quickly conscripted, lacked training, and weren't willing to kill. One way some/many soldiers deal with killing is dehumanization of the enemy. If you hang out with US soldiers, you hear lots or 'rag-head' 'sand-ni**er' talk. That's a big part of a soldier enabling himself to kill on command. So the IDF sniper who killed a kid in front of Shuki, when he said 'just another dead Arab', is doing his best to perform the necessary job at hand while keeping his sanity. It's not the sign of an insensitive cold-blooded killer, it's the sign of a very normal human doing something he very much doesn't want to do, and was raised not to do. If the sniper looked through his scope, and admired how cute the kid was, and wondered how his mother would scream and cry when she found out her baby was dead, he could never pull the trigger.

Shuki understands the necessity of the situation, but not the aftermath, how soldiers deal with it. Too bad.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Pretty sweet selective edit there. The article actually says:



The article skews the facts. When israel was founded, and for the next 40 years, there was an existential threat to Israel, and for a majority of that time there was a shortage of bodies, hence the mandatory draft of both men and women.

Over the years, as Israel becomes stronger and more advanced, and the population grows, the need became less. There are enough people to draft to allow for individuals personal needs. 20 years ago, you could not want all you want, you were going in. Now, there are enough to hand pick the highly motived citizens, and leave those who might be problematic physically, mentally, or otherwise.

For example, Israel always had a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy toward gays, until 1993, when they allowed them to serve openly. Before 1993, a gay could quietly serve if he wished, OR receive a pass on military service if he so desired. Now they can openly serve, or not, if they so desire. So when I first came to Israel, I met a few guys of the draft age, who didn't want to serve. They simply weren't into giving up 3 years of their lives, and preferred to party. They claimed to be gay to receive a pass on service.

So, as you see, there are lots of reasons someone might refuse to serve. 99% are for selfish or personal reasons, not because they disagree with policy. Those who disagree with policy are called refuseniks, as I've stated, and once again, number is 628-633:

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

This guy serve next to me in the IDF 101st Airborne. Our platoon of 22 guys met at his house on weekends off to have a BBQ and relax. I slept next to the guy for 3 years.



Shuki's a good guy, very smart, and a dedicated soldier. I find his take interesting, as it did not happen in our 3 years together, not once. He's not lying; I know, because I know him well. It must have happened in his yearly reserve duty later on. But Shuki is the only guy from my draft of 500 paratroopers who is a refusenik, the only guy who sees things this way. Not surprising, because he was a hippy peacenik even before the army, and obviously views the experience through his personal glasses, the filter of his upbringing and life experience.

If you analyze what he says, it's telling. He wasn't angered that the kid was shot. Many times kids are used to transport or plant bombs, and sometimes to carry out attacks. All Palestinian kids know to stay away from IDF posts; not because the soldiers are mean, but because when a kid blew himself up last week outside the outpost, the soldiers are going to be very wary, and use whatever means tokeep them away. Shuki knows this very well, so he understands the situation in which the kid was shot.

What angered him was the attitude of the soldier/s who shot him. Here's a small tidbit about the military and the psychology of killing: 99% of people don't want to kill. The militaries job is to teach you to over-ride the basic human instinct not to kill, and enable you to pull the trigger. In WWI, millions of rounds were fired over the heads of opposing soldiers ON PURPOSE, because the soldiers were quickly conscripted, lacked training, and weren't willing to kill. One way some/many soldiers deal with killing is dehumanization of the enemy. If you hang out with US soldiers, you hear lots or 'rag-head' 'sand-ni**er' talk. That's a big part of a soldier enabling himself to kill on command. So the IDF sniper who killed a kid in front of Shuki, when he said 'just another dead Arab', is doing his best to perform the necessary job at hand while keeping his sanity. It's not the sign of an insensitive cold-blooded killer, it's the sign of a very normal human doing something he very much doesn't want to do, and was raised not to do. If the sniper looked through his scope, and admired how cute the kid was, and wondered how his mother would scream and cry when she found out her baby was dead, he could never pull the trigger.

Shuki understands the necessity of the situation, but not the aftermath, how soldiers deal with it. Too bad.

You cannot mind read why less people are enlisting to suit your argument,fact is the tide is changing regardless of the reason,less people are enlisting and taking part in these questionable actions in Gaza and elsewhere and there was no selective edit,the article states near the beginning:

"Army statistics show the number of young people who do not enlist for military service has crept up in recent years to more than one in four men in 2007 and more than 43 per cent of women."


Also:

http://www.forward.com/articles/11609/

Israel Proposes National Service To Stem Tide of Draft Dodgers
Jerusalem: ‘We Are Losing Good People’

"amid growing public concern about the number of Israelis avoiding military service, which the army puts at a quarter of young men and as many as two-fifths of young women. In a country where donning the uniform has been among the most sacred of obligations to society,"

Also:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/887973.html

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Monday Israel must return to the days when draft dodgers were publicly scorned as carrying "the mark of Cain."

The defense minister's remarks followed the Israel Defense Forces' release of data two weeks ago showing that a quarter of all draft-age men who are obligated to serve are not enlisted.

Barak was speaking at a memorial assembly for Haaretz defense editor Ze'ev Schiff, who was also head of the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University.


"The Israel Defense Forces are turning gradually into an army of only half the people," Barak said. He was referring to the once common description of the
of the IDF as "the people's army."

 

[poison]

You cannot mind read

Mind read? I served. I lived there for over 6 years, and my mom and sister moved there after I did. I'm not mind reading, I'm speaking from personal experience, interaction with those who aren't serving, and actual working knowledge of the IDF.

The IDF doesn't have room, or jobs, for every citizen, anymore. PLain and simple. Before, even those who did not want to serve were pressed into service, and the only way out was being gay or physically/mentally unfit. They needed EVERY body they could get. Now they don't. The jobs they are thinking about creating are to enable everyone to serve the country in some capacity.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Mind read? I served. I lived there for over 6 years, and my mom and sister moved there after I did. I'm not mind reading, I'm speaking from personal experience, interaction with those who aren't serving, and actual working knowledge of the IDF.

The IDF doesn't have room, or jobs, for every citizen, anymore. PLain and simple. Before, even those who did not want to serve were pressed into service, and the only way out was being gay or physically/mentally unfit. They needed EVERY body they could get. Now they don't. The jobs they are thinking about creating are to enable everyone to serve the country in some capacity.

Talk about selective editing.

The whole statement was "You cannot mind read why less people are enlisting to suit your argument,fact is the tide is changing regardless of the reason,less people are enlisting and taking part in these questionable actions in Gaza and elsewhere"

Do you live there now? It is happenning now,have you polled people to see why they are not enlisting or are you just going off of pre-conceived assumptions?

 

[poison]

Talk about selective editing.

The whole statement was "You cannot mind read why less people are enlisting to suit your argument,fact is the tide is changing regardless of the reason,less people are enlisting and taking part in these questionable actions in Gaza and elsewhere"

Do you live there now? It is happenning now,have you polled people to see why they are not enlisting or are you just going off of pre-conceived assumptions?

Noob. You think ANY of this is new? It doesn't matter if I'm there now. If anything, there was more dissidence when I was there, not less. Oslo was in full swing, Rabin was making serious headway, and Arafat seemed to be plating along. Peace was in the air, and people could smell an end to mandatory service. People dared to dream of normality.

Living there, intermingling with a broad cross section of Israeli society, and getting my news from local sources, not ABC and some random blog somewhere, gave me hands on knowledge of Israelis, the IDF, and WTF is going on there.

You really think you're going to educate me on what's going on there? :snort: When's the last time YOU were there, hobnobbed with ISraelis AND Palestinians, spoke to lots of IDF soldiers in person, or spoke to family there? My opinion isn't pre-conceived, or an assumption. It's based on first-hand experience and knowledge.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Noob. You think ANY of this is new? It doesn't matter if I'm there now. If anything, there was more dissidence when I was there, not less. Oslo was in full swing, Rabin was making serious headway, and Arafat seemed to be plating along. Peace was in the air, and people could smell an end to mandatory service. People dared to dream of normality.

Living there, intermingling with a broad cross section of Israeli society, and getting my news from local sources, not ABC and some random blog somewhere, gave me hands on knowledge of Israelis, the IDF, and WTF is going on there.

You really think you're going to educate me on what's going on there? :snort: When's the last time YOU were there, hobnobbed with ISraelis AND Palestinians, spoke to lots of IDF soldiers in person, or spoke to family there? My opinion isn't pre-conceived, or an assumption. It's based on first-hand experience and knowledge.

OK,hey maybe I'm wrong. I have spoken to many Israelis while a member of Hillel in college and at shul,also my Rabbi, Bradley Tektiel, relayed plenty of his experiences and insights to me but I do not have a fixed mindset on the issue. Could you give me a book list or research site that may help educate me on the other side of the issue?

 

[poison]

I have a better idea: pay Israel a visit, in person. Walk it, talk it, feel it, then come back. You'd be surprised by what you experience. It might solidify your current position, or smash it, but either way, it would be well worth your time and an awesomely fun and interesting vacation.

 

[lutherblsstt]

I have a better idea: pay Israel a visit, in person. Walk it, talk it, feel it, then come back. You'd be surprised by what you experience. It might solidify your current position, or smash it, but either way, it would be well worth your time and an awesomely fun and interesting vacation.

Good idea,I have a question though. Is it true that if you have the Israeli stamp in your passport you will not be allowed to pass through most Arab countries? Also,barring an actual visit could you give me a book list or research site that may help educate me on the other side of the issue?

 

[poison]

Good idea,I have a question though. Is it true that if you have the Israeli stamp in your passport you will not be allowed to pass through most Arab countries? Also,barring an actual visit could you give me a book list or research site that may help educate me on the other side of the issue?

Yeah, most Muslim, not just ARab countries won't allow you in with an Israeli stamp. THink Bali, Indonesia, etc. Israelis are well-traveled, and understand the dilemma: just ask them to stamp a separate paper which you can keep separate from your passport, and they will do it.

Well, nothing beats going there and speaking to people who were there. Nothing. An Israeli family adopted me when I was in the IDF, I lived there for 3+ years. They fled Hitlers advance in Poland, crossed Russia, spent a year in China and Japan, then made it to Israel. Some of their neighbors were in Israel from the 20's. I lived on a kibbutz for a year, and there were residents who had been there for generations. While in the army, we met and spoke with guys who fought in 47-48 and before, and some of them walked us through the sites of battles they fought, and they went blow-by-blow, giving names of fallen comrades at the location they died. I lived in East Jerusalem, in an ARab hostel. I befriended a Palestinian doctor there, who hosted me many times in his home. I lived on a kibbutz in the Golan, befriended many former Syrian Druze. Amazing people, amazing experiences.

I'll dig up the names of some books, gotta go out in my garage. One I highly recommend, taking things from an alternate angle, is 'Israel's SEcret Wars' by Ian Black and Benny MOrris. I've been meaning to read this for a while, but haven't gotten around to it:

Amazon.com: Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 (9780679744757): Benny Morris: Books

 

[lutherblsstt]

Yeah, most Muslim, not just ARab countries won't allow you in with an Israeli stamp. THink Bali, Indonesia, etc. Israelis are well-traveled, and understand the dilemma: just ask them to stamp a separate paper which you can keep separate from your passport, and they will do it.

Well, nothing beats going there and speaking to people who were there. Nothing. An Israeli family adopted me when I was in the IDF, I lived there for 3+ years. They fled Hitlers advance in Poland, crossed Russia, spent a year in China and Japan, then made it to Israel. Some of their neighbors were in Israel from the 20's. I lived on a kibbutz for a year, and there were residents who had been there for generations. While in the army, we met and spoke with guys who fought in 47-48 and before, and some of them walked us through the sites of battles they fought, and they went blow-by-blow, giving names of fallen comrades at the location they died. I lived in East Jerusalem, in an ARab hostel. I befriended a Palestinian doctor there, who hosted me many times in his home. I lived on a kibbutz in the Golan, befriended many former Syrian Druze. Amazing people, amazing experiences.

I'll dig up the names of some books, gotta go out in my garage. One I highly recommend, taking things from an alternate angle, is 'Israel's SEcret Wars' by Ian Black and Benny MOrris. I've been meaning to read this for a while, but haven't gotten around to it:

Amazon.com: Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 (9780679744757): Benny Morris: Books

OK thanks for the travel tips and the book reference.