i am for phil

[JoeBrooklyn]

Ok, Please note, I am not saying Jesus didnt exist, all I am saying is that there is a minimal amount of contemporary sources of his actions. Additionally, there are just as many for the many other Messiahs of the same time (i.e.Simon of Paraea, Simon bar Kokhba, and even the Emperor Vespasian)

My point is, that to assume that the story of Jesus is accurate is quite short sighted imo. Jesus is a conglomeration of many pagan stories, myths, etc... all tied into one in an effort for the Romans to unify a fledgling empire.

I dont know if you have ever read the other gospels, but I would recommend it. They were tossed out until Hippo in 393

Ok, good because your previous posts seem to say that. As for minimal amount of contemporary sources of His actions you are correct; but that's where we must introduce the Gospels. I know you want to dismiss them; but a Dean Of Law named Simon Greenleaf wrote something called "The Testimony Of The Four Evangelists". His arguments are still used today in actual case law. The work operates on the idea of The Testimony of the witness is considered to be valid until proven otherwise in a court of law. Therefore; to disprove it you have to disprove the authenticity of the Gospels/manuscripts that still exist. I would recommend that you read a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist". It's a good read.
Yes, I agree that it is short sighted to just assume that the Jesus story is accurate; but that's where faith comes in. As I got older and was confronted with the types of arguments you have presented I was forced to do what Paul had said in the NT which was prepare to give a reason for your faith. I struggled with many things in the Bible, beginning with alcohol. My Grand Father was an alcoholic and I was raised as a Catholic and told that alcohol was bad. So when I read in the OT that alcohol was good to drink after a meal I was incredulous. A few years later scientists confirmed that some wine helps with digestion. That was just the beginning, after that there were many other things I doubted like the 7 day creation, evolution, as I studied my doubts were resolved, not 100% but then again, what's a 100% in life. I'm looking to buy an apartment building for investment purposes and I'm terrified. I am doing research about each building and I can make an intelligent decision but regardless of how much information I gather I will never be 100% of the outcome of my investment.
I don't know what other gospels you are referring to but if they are the ones I think you are referring to they were not tossed out at Hippo but in Nicea. Further, the doctrines laid forth in Hippo, in my opinion was the Proto-Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic but left when I was 15 and became a Baptist simply by redaing the Bible. So if you expect me to defend the Catholics you have reached a dead end.

 

[AE14]

With the exception of the last point (He was from the line of David), you are 100% correct. These were the exact same points Jews who did not believe He was the Christ gave. But the problem is with the interpretation of the prophecy (and obviously this is up for debate). The prophecy of the Christ in the OT was a dual prophecy. Kind of like looking at two mountains from a distance and not being able to see the valley in between. As for the other Messiahs performing miracles they never made blind people see or raise themselves from the dead. Those were huge.

Actually, i would look further into the other messiahs as well as the stories of Mithras, Horus and Sol Invictus.

Ok, good because your previous posts seem to say that. As for minimal amount of contemporary sources of His actions you are correct; but that's where we must introduce the Gospels. I know you want to dismiss them; but a Dean Of Law named Simon Greenleaf wrote something called "The Testimony Of The Four Evangelists". His arguments are still used today in actual case law. The work operates on the idea of The Testimony of the witness is considered to be valid until proven otherwise in a court of law. Therefore; to disprove it you have to disprove the authenticity of the Gospels/manuscripts that still exist. I would recommend that you read a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist". It's a good read.
Yes, I agree that it is short sighted to just assume that the Jesus story is accurate; but that's where faith comes in. As I got older and was confronted with the types of arguments you have presented I was forced to do what Paul had said in the NT which was prepare to give a reason for your faith. I struggled with many things in the Bible, beginning with alcohol. My Grand Father was an alcoholic and I was raised as a Catholic and told that alcohol was bad. So when I read in the OT that alcohol was good to drink after a meal I was incredulous. A few years later scientists confirmed that some wine helps with digestion. That was just the beginning, after that there were many other things I doubted like the 7 day creation, evolution, as I studied my doubts were resolved, not 100% but then again, what's a 100% in life. I'm looking to buy an apartment building for investment purposes and I'm terrified. I am doing research about each building and I can make an intelligent decision but regardless of how much information I gather I will never be 100% of the outcome of my investment.
I don't know what other gospels you are referring to but if they are the ones I think you are referring to they were not tossed out at Hippo but in Nicea. Further, the doctrines laid forth in Hippo, in my opinion was the Proto-Catholic Church. I was raised Catholic but left when I was 15 and became a Baptist simply by redaing the Bible. So if you expect me to defend the Catholics you have reached a dead end.

Actually, those that are called the apocrypha were tossed at Hippo, which set the 4 gospels as the only I believe. The Gospel of Thomas, Infancy Gospel and the Gospel of Mary are interesting reads. I would tell you that they are just as valid as many are on the same timeline as the current accepted gospels.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

Actually, i would look further into the other messiahs as well as the stories of Mithras, Horus and Sol Invictus.

Actually, those that are called the apocrypha were tossed at Hippo, which set the 4 gospels as the only I believe. The Gospel of Thomas, Infancy Gospel and the Gospel of Mary are interesting reads. I would tell you that they are just as valid as many are on the same timeline as the current accepted gospels.

Actually no, the Apocrypha was added at Hippo not at Nicea.

 

[thebigt]

an interesting point at least, imo....look at chapters 18 and 19 of genesis. it tells the story of sodom and gomorrah....what is interesting is that the term sodomy was derived from the city of sodom.

this is a clue, at least in my humble opinion of what GOD might think, after all he destroyed sodom.

 

[CincyKiller45]

There are 60 known, non-canonical, gospels. They are fascinating. Different early Christian sectors followed different gospels. Even if you dismiss them as heretic, it still shows us what early Christianity was facing and how the dominate form came to being.

<--Just read the Gospel of Judas. VERY interesting IMO.

Edit: there is a documentary on the Gospel of Judas on Netflix that I just discovered a few days ago. I would recommend reading the gospel first, but I believe the documentary does a good job.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

There are 60 known, non-canonical, gospels. They are fascinating. Different early Christian sectors followed different gospels. Even if you dismiss them as heretic, it still shows us what early Christianity was facing and how the dominate form came to being.

<--Just read the Gospel of Judas. VERY interesting IMO.

I have read most of them. Paul spoke of a few heresies he put to bed. The Gnostic were one of many. in my opinion this doesn't disprove Jesus's existence or Deity. It just proves that even back then the devil was working to confuse people.
You should read my gospel, the gospel of the Bodybuilding Salsa Dancer. Very interesting.

 

[CincyKiller45]

I have read most of them. Paul spoke of a few heresies he put to bed. The Gnostic were one of many. in my opinion this doesn't disprove Jesus's existence or Deity. It just proves that even back then the devil was working to confuse people.
You should read my gospel, the gospel of the Bodybuilding Salsa Dancer. Very interesting.

I don't believe it disproves Jesus' existence either. Nor do I believe the devil inspired the non-canonical gospels.

Clearly, early Christianity offered a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices catering to the unique needs of people with differing levels of spiritual development. I believe there is a lot we can learn about modern Christianity through the writings of the people during its formation.

In the 'forbidden' gnostic gospels that have begun to emerge from antiquity, we find we have actually been divinely invited to seek the truth and ask questions, because the truth is never marred of harmed by questions. Asking questions only serves to make the truth shine brighter.

I'll look into that gospel Joe. I, as well, have a gospel. It's title: The Gospel of the Powerlifting NASCAR Driver. It's a good read.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

I don't believe it disproves Jesus' existence either. Nor do I believe the devil inspired the non-canonical gospels.

Clearly, early Christianity offered a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices catering to the unique needs of people with differing levels of spiritual development. I believe there is a lot we can learn about modern Christianity through the writings of the people during its formation.

In the 'forbidden' gnostic gospels that have begun to emerge from antiquity, we find we have actually been divinely invited to seek the truth and ask questions, because the truth is never marred of harmed by questions. Asking questions only serves to make the truth shine brighter.

I'll look into that gospel Joe. I, as well, have a gospel. It's title: The Gospel of the Powerlifting NASCAR Driver. It's a good read.

LOL!!! Thats good

 

[AE14]

Actually no, the Apocrypha was added at Hippo not at Nicea.

I didnt say it was added at Nicea. Please reread. Actually the 325 council of nicea was interesting because it was there that the diety of Jesus was decided upon, again at the behest of Constantine. If you have not already done so, I would recommend you look into the religious transformation of the empire under Constantine and the reasoning for it. Not exactly what you think it is. I have studied Constantine and his reign for some time. Very difficult time to be a Roman Emperor for sure.

In terms of Paul putting things to bed, that is actually funny.

In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

I didnt say it was added at Nicea. Please reread. Actually the 325 council of nicea was interesting because it was there that the diety of Jesus was decided upon, again at the behest of Constantine. If you have not already done so, I would recommend you look into the religious transformation of the empire under Constantine and the reasoning for it. Not exactly what you think it is. I have studied Constantine and his reign for some time. Very difficult time to be a Roman Emperor for sure.

In terms of Paul putting things to bed, that is actually funny.

In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.

I reread and you said they were tossed. I guess one can assume you meant tossed in but you can't blame me for thinking it meant tossed out. There are NT manuscripts that go as far back as 120 AD, 205 years before Nicea that have Jesus's Deity. Do you have a special master copy of the minutes of the Nicea meetings?

 

[AE14]

I reread and you said they were tossed. I guess one can assume you meant tossed in but you can't blame me for thinking it meant tossed out. There are NT manuscripts that go as far back as 120 AD, 205 years before Nicea that have Jesus's Deity. Do you have a special master copy of the minutes of the Nicea meetings?

lol...sarcasm? always lends to friendly debate.

By the same token, there are countless gospels that show his lack of divinity. I believe it was the infancy gospel. Have to double check.

Also, Simon of Peraea was considered divine as well, until he was killed by the romans

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

lol...sarcasm? always lends to friendly debate.

By the same token, there are countless gospels that show his lack of divinity. I believe it was the infancy gospel. Have to double check.

Also, Simon of Peraea was considered divine as well, until he was killed by the romans

What countless gospels? At the Council of Nicea all the gospels were collated that were accepted as gospels. The heretical ones you speak of were well known forgeries.
Who the heck is Simon of Peraea and where is he in the Bible (I mean the real Bible not these forgeries you speak of).

But speaking of sarcasm, you should check out my gospel since you like gospels so much. Its called the Gospel Of The BodyBuilding Salsa Dancer.

 

[AE14]

What countless gospels? At the Council of Nicea all the gospels were collated that were accepted as gospels. The heretical ones you speak of were well known forgeries.
Who the heck is Simon of Peraea and where is he in the Bible (I mean the real Bible not these forgeries you speak of).

But speaking of sarcasm, you should check out my gospel since you like gospels so much. Its called the Gospel Of The BodyBuilding Salsa Dancer.

Wow. This is my last post here as since you seem to be running out of information, you resort to nonsense.

Simon was another Messiah at the same time. Do a little research... Might be helpful.

Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

Wow. This is my last post here as since you seem to be running out of information, you resort to nonsense.

Simon was another Messiah at the same time. Do a little research... Might be helpful.

Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day

I've given you a wealth of information and answers, we're just going in circles. If you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ that's fine, what do you want from me? Was Simon mentioned in the Bible? Then I really don't care. The guy from Waco Texas claimed to be a Messiah too should I do research on him? And I guess this means you are not interested in my Bodybuilding Salsa gospel? BTW, learn how to take a joke.

 

[kisaj]

What?! A religious discussion ending in an argument? That's weird.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

What?! A religious discussion ending in an argument? That's weird.

LOL!!!

 

[JudoJosh]

In terms of the devil, I am always curious how a theist views Lucifer, the light bringer. Take a look at cultures all throughout the ancient world and you will see that the serpent is revered for being a bringer of knowledge (ex. Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan). However, in the judeo-christian world, the serpent is hated for that very thing. Very interesting that the judeo-christian faiths would be against knowledge.

Thanks, I did not know this but it makes total sense now.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

Im still for Phil.

 

[CincyKiller45]

Forgeries? Lol.. Now I am definitely gone from this. Good day

I lol'd as well.

 

[jimbuick]

Thanks, I did not know this but it makes total sense now.

I didn't know a lot of the things AE spoke of, although his views on religious discussion is typically something I value.

This whole conversation (of the last few pages) is much further into religious history than I had ever cared to learn so I'm learning a ton from this thread.

 

[AE14]

I appreciate that. I have been studying religion since I was kicked out of temple and a Roman catholic church in a search for clarity. The more I searched, the more I realized the connections and the fact that the judeo-christian beliefs were "borrowed" extensively from earlier pagan sources and we're thrown together with a non "holy" purpose.

I highly recommend looking into other earlier cultures that predate what we know here. It will be eye opening.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

Phil Robertson has been reinstated. Praise God! Glory to God.

 

[Rodja]

Phil Robertson has been reinstated. Praise God! Glory to God.

Do you honestly think God concerns himself with such a trivial matter as this instead of addressing pandemics and plights around the world?

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

Do you honestly think God concerns himself with such a trivial matter as this instead of addressing pandemics and plights around the world?

Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 ESV)

 

[kisaj]

Do you honestly think God concerns himself with such a trivial matter as this instead of addressing pandemics and plights around the world?

God is made up to make people feel safe. It's already been discussed by the "religious" folk in here. Joe is a disgusting hypocrit that hides behind it to give his life meaning.

 

[Piston Honda]

God is made up to make people feel safe. It's already been discussed by the "religious" folk in here. Joe is a disgusting hypocrit that hides behind it to give his life meaning.

Careful, anyone who points out the absurdity of religion on this forum gets a condescending response about "keep your opinions to yourself."

I always discuss bodybuilding on religious forums as well as Hollywood gossip forums.

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

God is made up to make people feel safe. It's already been discussed by the "religious" folk in here. Joe is a disgusting hypocrit that hides behind it to give his life meaning.

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. (1 Timothy 1:15 ESV)

 

[kisaj]

Careful, anyone who points out the absurdity of religion on this forum gets a condescending response about "keep your opinions to yourself."

I always discuss bodybuilding on religious forums as well as Hollywood gossip forums.

You're right, I just need to stay out of this, but its hard.

 

[thebigt]

Im still for Phil.

phil is real!!!

 

[JoeBrooklyn]

phil is real!!!

LOL!!!

 

[JudoJosh]

Dear racist & homophobes, no matter how loud and obnoxious you are (which you are), you're still losing.

In 2013, 87 percent of Americans surveyed approved of interracial marriage. Just 50 years ago, over 90 percent of Americans disapproved - http://www.gallup.com/poll/163697/approve-marriage-blacks-whites.aspx

And while only 8 percent of U.S. marriages are between members of different races (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/marriage/story/2012-02-16/US-rate-of-interracial-marriage-hits-record-high/53109980/1), that happens to be an all-time high. And, despite its reputation as a bastion of backward rednecks, Americans are more likely to accept neighbors of different races than are the citizens of most other countries (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/17/5-insights-on-the-racial-tolerance-and-ethnicity-maps-from-an-ethnic-conflict-professor/)

"Well that's great, but what about gay marriage? That's still illegal in most of the country." That's true, and opinion polls are split right at 50-50, depending on whose polling you trust (http://news.msn.com/us/where-gay-marriage-stands-in-all-50-states?stay=1). But while half the country opposing a person's right to contractually chain him- or herself to another seems like bad news, you again have to see how far we've come (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/26/how-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage-is-changing-and-what-it-means/?_r=0) -- that 50 percent approval is up by over 20 percent from the mid-1990s alone. That's a huge turnaround just since the Clinton years.

This is evidently all because of the kids. Most measurable indicators suggest that the younger generations responsible for our future are increasingly tolerant and open-minded (perhaps it's all the weed?). Maybe people can change. Or, more likely, old bigots aren't immortal and are replaced with more tolerant infants every day. Either way, the arrow is pointing up.

 

[thebigt]

Dear racist homophobes, no matter how loud and obnoxious you are (which you are), you're still losing.

google phil robertson...A@E ends suspensionhil robertson returns to show!!!

i guess the political correctness police weren't ready for those of us with values, principles and morals to make a stand.

seems to me it is the left that is loud and obnoxious, i guess name calling didn't work this time.

 

[kisaj]

Oh, now it's political. I mean, we know that a Republican would never be gay or be offended by hateful comments since God likes them more.

 

[thebigt]

Dear racist homophobes, no matter how loud and obnoxious you are (which you are), you're still losing.

josh, are you a yuppie?

when is the last time you;

cleaned a fish?
field dressed a deer?
hell, even planted and grew a garden?

 

[Montego1]

josh, are you a yuppie?

when is the last time you;

cleaned a fish?
field dressed a deer?
hell, even planted and grew a garden?

I grew up in Cut and Shoot Texas and have never done any of those things and I'm not a yuppie.

 

[thebigt]

I grew up in Cut and Shoot Texas and have never done any of those things and I'm not a yuppie.

lol...so you are the one, i heard you were out there!!!

 

[thebigt]

Oh, now it's political. I mean, we know that a Republican would never be gay or be offended by hateful comments since God likes them more.

everything in life is political:
if you knew me you would know that i disagree with republicans on many issues...but at heart i am a tradionalist and side with the gop on some moral/ethic/value issues, this is one of them.

 

[Montego1]

lol...so you are the one, i heard you were out there!!!

Seriously though......I'm not trying to stir the pot any more then it already had been but here is how I see it.

I'm the guy who doesn't care about other people and their beliefs.

If you are gay. Be gay.
If you say gay is bad. Say gay is bad.

You can't control what people think and feel. So criticizing their views is silly. And doing so makes you look silly.

Don't be silly.

 

[thebigt]

Seriously though......I'm not trying to stir the pot any more then it already had been but here is how I see it.

I'm the guy who doesn't care about other people and their beliefs.

If you are gay. Be gay.
If you say gay is bad. Say gay is bad.

You can't control what people think and feel. So criticizing their views is silly. And doing so makes you look silly.

Don't be silly.

dude...that is what this is all about. the guy said according to his belief homosexuality is wrong.

where is the problem?

 

[Piston Honda]

He said the next step from homosexuality was beastiality. Unbelievably stupid and ridiculous, no matter how free he is to say so. Similar arguments were made pre-civil rights era about interracial relationships. Were those arguments right to be made? Or free to be made under the law? That's the difference. What one is free to say does not make it right to be said.

 

[jimbuick]

I grew up in Cut and Shoot Texas and have never done any of those things and I'm not a yuppie.

LOL my dad lived out there for a while, I didn't know you were from there.


I've grown up in the same area, and the only one of those things I've done is clean a fish. I'm also not sure what a yuppie is, or why it's relevant at all.

 

[thebigt]

LOL my dad lived out there for a while, I didn't know you were from there.


I've grown up in the same area, and the only one of those things I've done is clean a fish. I'm also not sure what a yuppie is, or why it's relevant at all.

it's relevance would be clear if you knew who phil robertson is...

phil calls city folk who don't hunt and fish yuppies, now you get it?

duck dynasty is kind of like the modern day beverly hillbillys, imo

 

[Montego1]

dude...that is what this is all about. the guy said according to his belief homosexuality is wrong.

where is the problem?

There isn't.

But if in his contract with A&E there was some clause about what he could and couldn't say on such subjects and he violated the contract then there is no reason to be in an up roar about them pulling him from the show.

 

[Montego1]

He said the next step from homosexuality was beastiality. Unbelievably stupid and ridiculous, no matter how free he is to say so. Similar arguments were made pre-civil rights era about interracial relationships. Were those arguments right to be made? Or free to be made under the law? That's the difference. What one is free to say does not make it right to be said.

There is no difference. Those same views are still very much alive in the south. And if you want to scream such things to the heavens then that's your business and no one else's.

 

[thebigt]

There isn't.

But if in his contract with A&E there was some clause about what he could and couldn't say on such subjects and he violated the contract then there is no reason to be in an up roar about them pulling him from the show.

no backstabbing family...no going against religious beliefs...and no filming during duck hunting season...those were the stipulations the robertsons gave before signing contract.

A@E has since backed down and reinstated phil!!! phil is back!!!

 

[Touey]

no backstabbing family...no going against religious beliefs...and no filming during duck hunting season...those were the stipulations the robertsons gave before signing contract.

A@E has since backed down and reinstated phil!!! phil is back!!!

Oh yeah bayby and that note touey like to play celebratory new year song[video=youtube;arTBmh89iOw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arTBmh89iOw[/video]

 

[Touey]

""You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Such confidence we have through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

You want to know who God is then read what Christ had to say. He is the New Covenant - the Old (covenant) Testament is no longer valid. So do not reference it.

Homosexuality, adultery, murder, stealing, envy, gluteny are all sin and seperate us from God. Christ offers all of us sinners reconcilliation with God.

When people who don't know the bible use the bible to invalidate the bible it is quite silly.

Sadly most have no idea of what faith is because it is counter-intellectual and counter-logical/reasonable and therefore they reject it. Sadly far too many very intelligent people are victims of themselves. They have great intellectual capacity to define and metaphore what a paradox principle is yet are completely and hopelessly powerless to live by it.

Inserting religion and mythology into a faith discussion is foolish. Discussing faith with someone who has no idea what faith is or how to practice it is equally foolish.

"Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become fools so that you may become wise."

I have absolutely the same proof you do. None. But "the substance of things hoped for by the evidence of the unseen" have been abundant in my life. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." It does not say mind, logic, reason or any other faculty. All of those faculties contradict time after time after time. I cannot find Him on my terms.


My God is a creator and nurturer - He created me perfectly and nurtures esteem just as your father should. Do you have a son or daughter whom your brought into the world whom you tell "you are my second or third most greatest". No. That would be counter instinctive and counter productive.


Blaming sin for the absence of a God is naive.

As far as alien life - my faith and knowledge of my God does not cause me to become ignorant nor do I dismiss that there may very well be other life in this vast universe that God created. Alien by definition means foreign. It does not mean that my same creator did not also create them and nurture them just as he has me.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."---All posts made by David Dunn

Noone want to get to the heart of matter but dance around to the music of time on all but truth shall become in the end to the wind. these postings standing by Dunn regardless how some spin on rhetoric logic world nonsensical nor circular

 

[Piston Honda]

"Homosexuality...(is) a sin..." -- untrue

 

[thebigt]

"Homosexuality...(is) a sin..." -- untrue

lol...go back 40 years and that statement would have caused as much controversy as what phil said.

 

[Piston Honda]

lol...go back 40 years and that statement would have caused as much controversy as what phil said.

Because we're not sheltered from progress any more, unless you're from the Deep South mindset