Help with planning a SARM cycle

[TheAnabolicNerd]

Okay so Im planning a SARM cycle for a bulk and I am unsure whether to run LGD-4033 or S4

Previous PED use has been MK-677, GHRP-2, GHRP-6, CJC-1295

The plan is to run either 7,5mg LGD for 10 weeks or 75mg S4 for 10 weeks. I will get bloodwork and run HcG alongside + PCT with enclomiphene.

Im wondering whether 7,5mg LGD-4033 or 75mg S4 would build the most muscle. I want to keep the dosages low due to it being the first time Im dipping my feet into androgens.
If I like it and decide that ”PEDs are for me” I will run testosterone next time.

Im also afraid of pushing it higher due to toxicity and supression but from what ive read S4 is the ”least toxic” SARM only major side effect being vision problems which are not permanent.

Just looking for inquiries on which one would build the most muscle at these dosages. There is a chance that I will be running GHRP-2 + CJC-1295 alongside this cycle and during PCT to counteract the low IGF-1 levels that enclo causes.

 

[SSJ4GOD]

LGD is way better than S4 (they still make that lol?). But your dose of 7.5mg is low. @Smont is an LGD guy so hopefully he will chime in

 

[cruze1911r1]

I ran 20mg lgd4033 with 330mg 4 andro and it was an enjoyable cycle. I tried 30mg of the lgd and felt "off", but to each their own.

Shut down was real and a solid pct is a must. Nolvadex and a quality test booster like m-test will do the job. I ran reducext as well during pct

 

[cruze1911r1]

Also, I didn't see you mention a test base. Lgd is quite suppressive at bodybuilding doses and does not covert to estrogen so you'll need a test base. 4 andro or dermacrine are popular options

 

[Mikereyn513]

Also, I didn't see you mention a test base. Lgd is quite suppressive at bodybuilding doses and does not covert to estrogen so you'll need a test base. 4 andro or dermacrine are popular options

Or test enanthate...

 

[Ironpirate]

Or test enanthate...

Or ment

 

[KvanH]

With that low dose you may not know, if PED's are for you or not. I would take 15 mg at minimum, even if it's the first cycle. And I would choose LGD.

 

[KvanH]

Or test enanthate...

Sure. But at that point, why not just run test and forget the sarms.

 

[TheAnabolicNerd]

With that low dose you may not know, if PED's are for you or not. I would take 15 mg at minimum, even if it's the first cycle. And I would choose LGD.

That is true, but is the liver toxicity of LGD overblown? The major reason why Im keeping it so low is being afraid to damage my liver. Ofc ill be taking NAC alongside but Im not sure that would be enough for a higher dose like 15 - 20mg

S4 just seems more appealing with no known liver toxicity less supression and less skewing of cholesterol. Ofc I realize that if youre playing the PED game you cant be a bitch and there are some risks you have to take for the stronger compounds but I feel like starting off as safe as possible and tirtrating up cant hurt.

 

[KvanH]

That is true, but is the liver toxicity of LGD overblown? The major reason why Im keeping it so low is being afraid to damage my liver. Ofc ill be taking NAC alongside but Im not sure that would be enough for a higher dose like 15 - 20mg

S4 just seems more appealing with no known liver toxicity less supression and less skewing of cholesterol. Ofc I realize that if youre playing the PED game you cant be a bitch and there are some risks you have to take for the stronger compounds but I feel like starting off as safe as possible and tirtrating up cant hurt.

Well, it's always tough to say anything definitive when it comes to side effects of drugs and even more so, when it's somewhat new and not heavily tested, like a SARM and it's your health, not mine at stake. So I'll just say that I wouldn't personally be concerned about liver toxicity with LGD 20+ mg. It's not methylated and many run methylated orals for up to 8 weeks, with no real liver issues. You can add TUDCA to your NAC protocol to even further protect your liver.

Generally, liver toxicity is not the first health issue people need to worry about, when using PEDs. It's the hit on lipids, blood pressure, suppression of hormone production, etc.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Sure. But at that point, why not just run test and forget the sarms.

That's my point...I don't understand why everyone wants to start with sarms. Start with compounds that have ben tried and true for over 50 years..then if you want to see what sarms are about then go ahead. Guys these days have it backwards. If the injectable thing is an issue we'll then maybe this section of AM isn't for you. I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm seeing way to much of this lately

 

[Oliver Kween]

Maybe you could turn to ACP or S23?

I'm not an ostarine guy, given what @Smont said, I don't dare touch it anymore. Afterwards, everyone reacts to the product differently.


Remember that although sarms are not old unlike AAS. This is precisely why you can find products that are coated, fake, or even have AAS in them. First of all, you need a reliable source . You will see that the purest Sarms have less toxic effects (be careful, I'm not saying that they don't have any!), But you will have to suffer fewer complications to get out of them.

 

[KvanH]

That's my point...I don't understand why everyone wants to start with sarms. Start with compounds that have ben tried and true for over 50 years..then if you want to see what sarms are about then go ahead. Guys these days have it backwards. If the injectable thing is an issue we'll then maybe this section of AM isn't for you. I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm seeing way to much of this lately

Well I can't disagree with you there for the most part, but I do understand not wanting to pin from the get go. Even if it's not based on valid reasoning, it's understandable to me.

 

[Smont]

Well I can't disagree with you there for the most part, but I do understand not wanting to pin from the get go. Even if it's not based on valid reasoning, it's understandable to me.

He's running hcg tho. You gotta pin that, he's also used peptides that are injectable.

That's my point...I don't understand why everyone wants to start with sarms. Start with compounds that have ben tried and true for over 50 years..then if you want to see what sarms are about then go ahead. Guys these days have it backwards. If the injectable thing is an issue we'll then maybe this section of AM isn't for you. I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm seeing way to much of this lately

Going by his post, he's only listed items available otc, research Chem or AA so I'm guessing he hasn't looked for a gear source and is doing only things he can buy from grey area

LGD is way better than S4 (they still make that lol?). But your dose of 7.5mg is low. @Smont is an LGD guy so hopefully he will chime in

Ya way too low for the majority of ppl. There are definitely some ppl that can use little doses like that but even 20mg of lgd is a fairly low dose and that's the minimum for most guys.

I say this all the time. We know sarms are weaker then steroids. Mg vs. Mg sarms like lgd are on par with stuff like tbol or anavar.

Well, we know that 10mg of anaver is going to do fuk all for building muscle so what make yiu guys think 10mg lgd is gonna do something, then they get no gains and say sarms don't work. If you took only 7.5mg of anadrol which is like the king of orals it would do nothing.

Get my point

 

[KvanH]

He's running hcg tho. You gotta pin that, he's also used peptides that are injectable.

Right, that's a good point. Kind of missed that.

 

[Smont]

Right, that's a good point. Kind of missed that.

I did too at first

 

[Smont]

That's my point...I don't understand why everyone wants to start with sarms. Start with compounds that have ben tried and true for over 50 years..then if you want to see what sarms are about then go ahead. Guys these days have it backwards. If the injectable thing is an issue we'll then maybe this section of AM isn't for you. I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm seeing way to much of this lately

The only real benefit is see to starting with a oral steroid or sarm is that I think the majority of ppl think anabolics do more then they do. Then they run one of these short cycles with unrealistic expectations and don't use gear again for a while. It's just much easier to run a oral for a few weeks then to get needles and pin. People also have the false assumption that injections are more dangerous and they look at theses like stepping stones just like my generation looked at "prohormones " designers like hdrol and epistane as the stepping stones. It's just the normal process. I don't think it's the correct way but I understand it.

Imagine you get the itch to be a basketball player. You gotta try out for the high-school team before you go to the NBA. You might find out your not good enough to start jv and bail early.
Or if you wanna drive a race car. Yiur probably gonna take a few lessons before you go try to qualify at the talladega nights speedway.

 

[TheAnabolicNerd]

He's running hcg tho. You gotta pin that, he's also used peptides that are injectable.
Going by his post, he's only listed items available otc, research Chem or AA so I'm guessing he hasn't looked for a gear source and is doing only things he can buy from grey area
Ya way too low for the majority of ppl. There are definitely some ppl that can use little doses like that but even 20mg of lgd is a fairly low dose and that's the minimum for most guys.

I say this all the time. We know sarms are weaker then steroids. Mg vs. Mg sarms like lgd are on par with stuff like tbol or anavar.

Well, we know that 10mg of anaver is going to do fuk all for building muscle so what make yiu guys think 10mg lgd is gonna do something, then they get no gains and say sarms don't work. If you took only 7.5mg of anadrol which is like the king of orals it would do nothing.

Get my point

That is true, Im not expecting a massive increase in muscle either. I know how to get gear but I guess Im looking to do SARMs first for the irrational fear of the ”commitment” that comes with pinning gear (Ending up BnC for life) and the duration of the cycle. Since an S4 cycle wouldnt shut me down completely PCT would be smoother and I could get off it shortly after and evaluate for a couple months whether I want to take the next step.

I know that reasoning doesnt really make sense since Im pretty sure im going to end up using gear later on anyways. Or I might just decide to skip the whole SARM only bullshit and do 250 - 300mg test for 20 weeks along with 75mg S4 for the last 10 - 12 weeks of that.

 

[Mikereyn513]

That is true, Im not expecting a massive increase in muscle either. I know how to get gear but I guess Im looking to do SARMs first for the irrational fear of the ”commitment” that comes with pinning gear (Ending up BnC for life) and the duration of the cycle. Since an S4 cycle wouldnt shut me down completely PCT would be smoother and I could get off it shortly after and evaluate for a couple months whether I want to take the next step.

I know that reasoning doesnt really make sense since Im pretty sure im going to end up using gear later on anyways. Or I might just decide to skip the whole SARM only bullshit and do 250 - 300mg test for 20 weeks along with 75mg S4 for the last 10 - 12 weeks of that.

"Or I might just decide to skip the whole SARM only bullshit abd do 250-300 test for 20 weeks "
This this this this you could even go up to 500 if you're not seeing estro sides...on your first cycle you want to see if you can get to 500 without an a.i. so you know for future cycles

 

[UnrealMachine]

You guys are funny saying “I needed this dose, that dose is a waste of time, low doses are for babies”

trying a spectrum of doses is the only way to understand your dose response curve. Everyone responds differently. When you take a dos from someone else it’s an absolute crap shoot how you will respond to it.
you can do all of these high doses and just get more sides. Or find out you are a nonresponder.

A key point that’s missing here is the importance of graduated doses. For something like a 12 week cycle with short, oral half lives, your body will start to adjust to the chemical loading and bumping doses every X weeks starting from a low point is a tried and true method. And this lets you slowly explore your response curve.

in other words why run 15mg constant when you could run 5/10/15/20 and use that information to guide your second cycle. Or you can arbitrarily make the spread smaller if 5-20 is too high…
Let’s say 10/12.5/15/17.5/20

At the end of the cycle there’s the physical results but then there’s also the learning experience. Will I run this compound again? How should I dose or stack it?
I contend that my methods will lead to the better results in the long term.

 

[Hyde]

You guys are funny saying “I needed this dose, that dose is a waste of time, low doses are for babies”

trying a spectrum of doses is the only way to understand your dose response curve. Everyone responds differently. When you take a dos from someone else it’s an absolute crap shoot how you will respond to it.
you can do all of these high doses and just get more sides. Or find out you are a nonresponder.

A key point that’s missing here is the importance of graduated doses. For something like a 12 week cycle with short, oral half lives, your body will start to adjust to the chemical loading and bumping doses every X weeks starting from a low point is a tried and true method. And this lets you slowly explore your response curve.

in other words why run 15mg constant when you could run 5/10/15/20 and use that information to guide your second cycle. Or you can arbitrarily make the spread smaller if 5-20 is too high…
Let’s say 10/12.5/15/17.5/20

At the end of the cycle there’s the physical results but then there’s also the learning experience. Will I run this compound again? How should I dose or stack it?
I contend that my methods will lead to the better results in the long term.

I agree with what you are saying, because it promotes a more analytical approach that also tends to help the user get the most from the least longterm, BUT we also want to remember the end goal, and not ignore overwhelming anecdote in favor of best case scenarios.

So I would contend that this is the method to use, BUT dosing should begin at the lowest effective doses we’ve seen in anecdote. If 9 guys said 15mg ended up being the optimal dose of LGD for their first cycle, and 1 guy blew up on 5mg…our 5mg guy is the outlier. Most of us are not outliers, by definition.

I personally know someone who catches a buzz off the 3mg average caffeine in a cup of green tea. She will be up all night if she drinks some in the afternoon; most people do not respond this way to caffeine. Your recent experiences with SARMs reflect a similar hyper-response. So your anecdote is important, but temper it with the realization most people don’t have extensive cycle history, are coming off a layoff, or understand & will execute correct hard training and dialed nutrition.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I agree with what you are saying, because it promotes a more analytical approach that also tends to help the user get the most from the least longterm, BUT we also want to remember the end goal, and not ignore overwhelming anecdote in favor of best case scenarios.

So I would contend that this is the method to use, BUT dosing should begin at the lowest effective doses we’ve seen in anecdote. If 9 guys said 15mg ended up being the optimal dose of LGD for their first cycle, and 1 guy blew up on 5mg…our 5mg guy is the outlier. Most of us are not outliers, by definition.

I personally know someone who catches a buzz off the 3mg average caffeine in a cup of green tea. She will be up all night if she drinks some in the afternoon; most people do not respond this way to caffeine. Your recent experiences with SARMs reflect a similar hyper-response. So your anecdote is important, but temper it with the realization most people don’t have extensive cycle history, are coming off a layoff, or understand & will execute correct hard training and dialed nutrition.

Hyde you have a way with words I agree with what you’re saying. We can use averages to predict where dosing schemes can be centered around.
so if we choose 15 for LGD as the sweet spot people can still learn more from starting lower and working higher. But we agree on this point.

Nobody knows if they are the outlier until they experiment. How many posts do we see where someone doesn’t like a compound because of this or that side effect (constantly right) and in how many cases could this have been avoided by dose titration (probably the majority). I recall recent posts of a guy starting MK677 at 25mg because that’s the standard bro recommended dose and he was slamming cheat meals to deal with the hunger and ended up lowering the dose.

I always say, “what is the rush” most of us are competing against ourselves. Unless you have a serious competition deadline and need to blast your anabolic loading you may as well take your time and map out your response curve.

what’s nice about the low doses is the stackability. Little of this, little of that. Maybe 5mg LGD doesn’t do a TON for you… but manages to provide a big boost to your workout endurance - you could leverage it as a stacker for something else where this attribute is needed.

and I’m not sure how much hyper response I had from Rad, my workouts have been so good I’m suspecting that a good chunk is coming actually from the MK677!

 

[Hyde]

Hyde you have a way with words I agree with what you’re saying. We can use averages to predict where dosing schemes can be centered around.
so if we choose 15 for LGD as the sweet spot people can still learn more from starting lower and working higher. But we agree on this point.

Nobody knows if they are the outlier until they experiment. How many posts do we see where someone doesn’t like a compound because of this or that side effect (constantly right) and in how many cases could this have been avoided by dose titration (probably the majority). I recall recent posts of a guy starting MK677 at 25mg because that’s the standard bro recommended dose and he was slamming cheat meals to deal with the hunger and ended up lowering the dose.

I always say, “what is the rush” most of us are competing against ourselves. Unless you have a serious competition deadline and need to blast your anabolic loading you may as well take your time and map out your response curve.

what’s nice about the low doses is the stackability. Little of this, little of that. Maybe 5mg LGD doesn’t do a TON for you… but manages to provide a big boost to your workout endurance - you could leverage it as a stacker for something else where this attribute is needed.

and I’m not sure how much hyper response I had from Rad, my workouts have been so good I’m suspecting that a good chunk is coming actually from the MK677!

People overdo MK so often. If you get more from more, great I say, but like you are saying it has great bang for buck at lesser dosage. 10-15mg offers obvious benefit for a lot less water retention & bp increase than 25mg does for me.

I only use 25mg if I want to bloat up for something heavy.

 

[Smont]

I agree with what you are saying, because it promotes a more analytical approach that also tends to help the user get the most from the least longterm, BUT we also want to remember the end goal, and not ignore overwhelming anecdote in favor of best case scenarios.

So I would contend that this is the method to use, BUT dosing should begin at the lowest effective doses we’ve seen in anecdote. If 9 guys said 15mg ended up being the optimal dose of LGD for their first cycle, and 1 guy blew up on 5mg…our 5mg guy is the outlier. Most of us are not outliers, by definition.

I personally know someone who catches a buzz off the 3mg average caffeine in a cup of green tea. She will be up all night if she drinks some in the afternoon; most people do not respond this way to caffeine. Your recent experiences with SARMs reflect a similar hyper-response. So your anecdote is important, but temper it with the realization most people don’t have extensive cycle history, are coming off a layoff, or understand & will execute correct hard training and dialed nutrition.

My cousin Anthony is like that, if he was do drink a expresso or have anything with caffeine after like 2pm he will not sleep that night