Epistane = Phera-Plex....WTF??

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Left ventricular hypertrophy

From wiki;


"Causes

While ventricular hypertrophy can occur naturally as a reaction to aerobic exercise and strength training, it is most frequently referred to as a pathological reaction to cardiovascular disease, or high blood pressure.[1]

While LVH itself is not a disease, it is usually a marker for disease involving the heart.[2] Disease processes that can cause LVH include any disease that increases the afterload that the heart has to contract against, and some primary diseases of the muscle of the heart.

Causes of increased afterload that can cause LVH include aortic stenosis, aortic insufficiency, and hypertension. Primary disease of the muscle of the heart that cause LVH are known as hypertrophic cardiomyopathies.
"

So if the above is factually correct (this is wikipedia so it may not be, I understand), it is the increased blood pressure that is more likely responsible for LVH than the steroid binding to AR's. I know I felt like my blood pressure was very high on a PP clone.

This would also explain why some steroids - injectable test as mentioned for example - that do not increase bp like oral 17aa's do, do not report LVH as a significant side effect, no?
 
aspire210

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This would also explain why some steroids - injectable test as mentioned for example - that do not increase bp like oral 17aa's do, do not report LVH as a significant side effect, no?
use a decent dose of test and i bet your blood pressure goes up quite a bit. Pretty much all steroids raise blood pressure due to raising RBC, making the blood thicker, making it harder to pump through the body. The ones that cause water retention seem to do this even more so.

However, we are forgetting that weight lifting alone has shown significant increase in LVH as well.
 
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Ok. I was just responding to a point someone made about test earlier. The excerpt did mention that ventricular hypertrophy can occur naturally as a reaction to aerobic exercise and strength training also. When (strenght training is) combined with high bp caused by phera, there you have your significantly observed ventricular hypertrophy.
 
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use a decent dose of test and i bet your blood pressure goes up quite a bit. Pretty much all steroids raise blood pressure due to raising RBC, making the blood thicker, making it harder to pump through the body. The ones that cause water retention seem to do this even more so.

However, we are forgetting that weight lifting alone has shown significant increase in LVH as well.
Perhaps some indicator of why Clen and anabolics are a bad combo.

Then again, look at BP increases on Ephedrine, etc.
 

Schism

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Test doesn't bind to the androgen receptors on the heart which is where the damage comes from, not all androgens do. The only one I seen proof in studies that does is DMT/Pheraplex.

YouTube - DEA Agent Shoots Himself <--- hahaha
Bottom line, this is true. Yes steroids do increase bp and can cause (do cause) heart and organ enlargement or hypertrophy. And yes heart hypertrophy dose unfortunately occur naturally from training (though this seems to be more the case with aerobic type training) and is well documented.
Where I think you a little off slowprogress is that DMT dose bind to the AR receptors it the heart specifically, thus causing enlargement. Would this happen anyway just taking a steroid and training intensely? Probably, to some extent. But while increases in liver weight have been observed with the administration of other anabolics ie.(test) this increase in heart weight was observed (at least in the study I read) only from administered DMT.
 
neoborn

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I agree with what someone else said here, i will never use Epistane and ive said that before because whether or not this or that is true about what has been said about the product, Im gonna just stay away because its not worth it to find out really. Im sorry but IBE just has a terrible rep now, honestly.
If you have an issue with myself or any other rep, please feel free to discuss this openly on the forums or via PM. Hinting and kind of, sort of, maybe pointing at someone doesn't really cut it in the adult world of communication. I expect some good quality dialogue from you PI with your openness to speak your mind and not hiding in the shadows... :thumbsup:

Honest and straightforward dialogue is worth much.
 
aspire210

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Bottom line, this is true. Yes steroids do increase bp and can cause (do cause) heart and organ enlargement or hypertrophy. And yes heart hypertrophy dose unfortunately occur naturally from training (though this seems to be more the case with aerobic type training) and is well documented.
Where I think you a little off slowprogress is that DMT dose bind to the AR receptors it the heart specifically, thus causing enlargement. Would this happen anyway just taking a steroid and training intensely? Probably, to some extent. But while increases in liver weight have been observed with the administration of other anabolics ie.(test) this increase in heart weight was observed (at least in the study I read) only from administered DMT.
yes, but it was ONLY compared to testosterone.
 

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If you have an issue with myself or any other rep, please feel free to discuss this openly on the forums or via PM. Hinting and kind of, sort of, maybe pointing at someone doesn't really cut it in the adult world of communication. I expect some good quality dialogue from you PI with your openness to speak your mind and not hiding in the shadows... :thumbsup:

Honest and straightforward dialogue is worth much.
my guess is he meant rep as in reputation
 

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yes, but it was ONLY compared to testosterone.
Right, You are right. But testosterone is (I'll use the term loosely) an illegal AAS. Were as DMT cost $20 a bottle and can easily be picked up at this or any other online store. Making it easily accessible for teens and dumb@sses alike. And I can't tell you how many threads I've seen were the poster says "I thought it was safe because I bought it at the store" bla, bla, bla... I'm sure you've seen this as well. Thus making it inherently more dangerous and possibly, more widely used. At least among the uneducated...
 
poopypants

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If you have an issue with myself or any other rep, please feel free to discuss this openly on the forums or via PM. Hinting and kind of, sort of, maybe pointing at someone doesn't really cut it in the adult world of communication. I expect some good quality dialogue from you PI with your openness to speak your mind and not hiding in the shadows...

Honest and straightforward dialogue is worth much.
my guess is he meant rep as in reputation

I do as well, as PP and I are on very good terms personally and have a bit of history on the boards here..... thanks for comin in and makin sure to stand up though Neo.

Although I do wish he wouldnt pay attention to the jealous happenings of certain outside peoples that have caused IBE to have a generally negative rep with some as in all reality IBE has done so much more then he really knows to make sure that what they are doing is right. They are continuing to do so right now to thwart any future mishaps, thats why they havnt just come right out and released the next batch of epi the second it sold out everywhere although everyone else is continuing to sell their Epithio compounds.

IBE is spending thousands to mass a major amout of information and studiess backing the safety and efficacy of Epistane and will be releaseing it all with the next batch finally made and released coming soon..... this will save tha ass of ALL the epithio products IMO.
 

Schism

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I do as well, as PP and I are on very good terms personally and have a bit of history on the boards here..... thanks for comin in and makin sure to stand up though Neo.

Although I do wish he wouldnt pay attention to the jealous happenings of certain outside peoples that have caused IBE to have a generally negative rep with some as in all reality IBE has done so much more then he really knows to make sure that what they are doing is right. They are continuing to do so right now to thwart any future mishaps, thats why they havnt just come right out and released the next batch of epi the second it sold out everywhere although everyone else is continuing to sell their Epithio compounds.

IBE is spending thousands to mass a major amout of information and studiess backing the safety and efficacy of Epistane and will be releaseing it all with the next batch finally made and released coming soon..... this will save tha ass of ALL the epithio products IMO.
Good, maybe these studies will give light to this clearly chaotic discussion. Just the fact that they are investigating this compound (at least for me) proves that this thread has merit. Something is obviously going on here.
It will be interesting to see what they conclude. The fact that they are looking into it at all, while as you said, everyone else is mass producing this sh!t shows at least, at least good intention. and that is honorable IMO.
 
aspire210

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Right, You are right. But testosterone is (I'll use the term loosely) an illegal anabolic steroids. Were as DMT cost $20 a bottle and can easily be picked up at this or any other online store. Making it easily accessible for teens and dumb@sses alike. And I can't tell you how many threads I've seen were the poster says "I thought it was safe because I bought it at the store" bla, bla, bla... I'm sure you've seen this as well. Thus making it inherently more dangerous and possibly, more widely used. At least among the uneducated...
"I thought it was safe because I bought it at the store" is a lame excuse. This is the fundamental problem with our country. Stupidity is not the fault of the people who sell you things. Coffee shouldn't have "Caution: Hot" warning labels on it just because someone was dumb enough to burn themselves. What do to our bodies should be our decision, but idiots like this are screwing it up for everyone. Not everything we buy at the store is safe or harmless. I can by methanol, sodium hydroxide, drain cleaners, over cleaners, etc, etc none of which are safe to eat and many of which aren't even safe to get on your skin. Why is the supplement industry held to such high standards by us? Ignorance is not an excuse to blame others for your mistake.
 

Schism

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"I thought it was safe because I bought it at the store" is a lame excuse. This is the fundamental problem with our country. Stupidity is not the fault of the people who sell you things. Coffee shouldn't have "Caution: Hot" warning labels on it just because someone was dumb enough to burn themselves. What do to our bodies should be our decision, but idiots like this are screwing it up for everyone. Not everything we buy at the store is safe or harmless. I can by methanol, sodium hydroxide, drain cleaners, over cleaners, etc, etc none of which are safe to eat and many of which aren't even safe to get on your skin. Why is the supplement industry held to such high standards by us? Ignorance is not an excuse to blame others for your mistake.
I agree. But drinking Draino doesnt make you swell up or I'm sure most high-school football players would be doing that instead. And there is no warning label on a bottle of Phera-plex that says:WARNING MAY CAUSE IRREVERSIBLE HEART ENLARGMENT!! But I do get what your saying. And yes dumb@sses do ruin it for everyone just like the MLB ruined Andro for us! It is very frustrating at best!!
 
The_Reverend

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If you have an issue with myself or any other rep, please feel free to discuss this openly on the forums or via PM. Hinting and kind of, sort of, maybe pointing at someone doesn't really cut it in the adult world of communication. I expect some good quality dialogue from you PI with your openness to speak your mind and not hiding in the shadows... :thumbsup:

Honest and straightforward dialogue is worth much.
You're lost man.
 
quigs

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True, but that just goes back to class 1 vs class II. Basically anything that binds to the AR should cause that, and anything that doesn't shouldnt. Example of not binding directly would be superdrol, which shouldn't cause the heart or liver enlargement
Where is this class I vs class II steroid stuff coming from? All AAS are AR agonists, this is how they exert their anabolic effects.
 
quigs

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In this very case then Test is class I and would mean it would have the same strong affinity to binding to the androgen receptor.... so with all the TONS of test taken across the years why dont we hear of IT increasing the hearts size? :think:
It does. All androgens do to some extent.
 
quigs

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Not necessarily....., I've worked for two companies that have made hormonal products and I couldn't care either way. Epi is not a compound that I hold in high regard, b/c its effects are very mild and nothing to get excited about. I've used Epistane, Epidrol, and Methyl E before, so its not like I'm some noob concerning its effects and results. I've also used two version of DMT, which were ALRI Ergomax LMG and SNS Methyl-Plex XT. I can tell you with some degree of certainty that there effects are entirely different in producing gains, emotions, and blood work results. I think that its a bit presumptuous to think that a compound that is made from DMT is going to turn into it within the body, regardless if PA says that it does in a lab. I believe that Epithio's will likely leave traces of DMT as it degrades in a petri dish especially if it is acted upon by a chemical solvent. It makes a lot of sense for it to do so, since it is synthisized from it. All this thread builds is speculation. Most people can agree that they are better places(i.e. forums)for these types of threads.
I agree completely with this post. There is a significant difference in effects between madol and epithio. It is very unlikely that this converts to DMT to such an extent in vivo.
 
quigs

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As for epi, I have an allergy to sulfer meds so taking this compound is a big risk for me, so I have not done so.

Maybe my original statement about "much safer" applies more to SD and just "safer" applies to epi. At least with DMT we have SOME research in english and a good bit of people have used it on a broad scale.
Sulfa drugs are completely different. There should be no problem taking epistane/havoc...if your concern is the sulfur. You consume sulfur in your diet all the time. Don't let this be the reason you avoid this compound.

I agree, in my experience DMT was "safer" than SD.
 
quigs

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Holy shiz this just made me remember one thing so I can tell you guys two things that you may not have heard and leave you with some speculation contrary to what mr PA has said.

A while back another fellow mentioned he was allergic to sulfer and sulfer meds as well and ws worried about taking epi(cant remember if it was epi or havoc though) and that it could possibly give him an allergic reaction...well Dr D came in and mentioned something about how the Sulfur was bonded on there and would not detatch and he should be fine, but to start at a low dose if he tried it and go from there to see how he reacted. well the guy came back later and said he was doing fine with epi and has gone as high as 30mg without ANY allerigc reaction leading him to belive Dr D was correct and the sulfer must not be freed.

Now this leads me to my realization HERE on this topic. PA is saying that by losing the sulfer then THAT would cause one to have a DMT fragmentation pattern (he mentioned it would take a chemical AND the heat from the injection port to make this happen), wich means hes relying on the exact thing that would cause an allergic reaction in this guy to recreate what hes done in the lab.

This being said

1. Aspire Im pretty sure youll be fine trying Epi but let me find this thread first to console you on the fact if you like, considering someone in your same condition was just fine.

and

2. I highly doubt that this chemical and heat induced reaction used to detatch the sulfer creating DMT's fragmentation pattern (funny he just mentions the pattern and not the actual compound, who knows what else can make this pattern anyways) actually happens in the body as well, otherwise this guy who used it would have been in a world of hurt.
Again, these compounds will not cause the same problems as sulfa drugs. You consume sulfur all the time. Cysteine (conditionally essential) and methionine (essential) are amino acids which you commonly consume in your dietary protein. This is what gives eggs their characteristic "rotten egg" smell.

This myth really needs to go away.
 
quigs

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Test doesn't bind to the androgen receptors on the heart which is where the damage comes from, not all androgens do. The only one I seen proof in studies that does is DMT/Pheraplex.
Not sure where you're getting this information, but testosterone and DHT both bind to AR in the heart and can cause hearty hypertrophy.
 
quigs

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Ok. I was just responding to a point someone made about test earlier. The excerpt did mention that ventricular hypertrophy can occur naturally as a reaction to aerobic exercise and strength training also. When (strenght training is) combined with high bp caused by phera, there you have your significantly observed ventricular hypertrophy.
Chronic hypertension is the main culprit in pathological heart hypertrophy. Peripheral resistance requires that the heart pump with either more frequency, more force, or both. This generally leads to a narrowing of the heart chambers and decreases the organ's pumping efficiency.

Cardiovascular exercise can also increase the size of the heart, but this also increases the heart's efficiency.
 
quigs

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I believe that this is the study that you guys are referring to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17254722?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), a steroid misused for doping.

Diel P, Friedel A, Geyer H, Kamber M, Laudenbach-Leschowsky U, Schänzer W, Thevis M, Vollmer G, Zierau O.
Center for Preventive Doping Research, Institute of Cardiovascular Research and Sports Medicine, Department of Molecular and Cellular Sports Medicine, German Sports University Cologne, 50927 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]
Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), also known as Madol, is a steroid recently identified to be misused as a doping agent. Since, the knowledge of functions of this substance is rather limited, it was our aim to characterise the pharmacological profile of DMT and to identify potential adverse side effects. DMT was synthesised, its purity was confirmed and its biological activity was tested. The potency of Madol (DMT) to transactivate androgen receptor (AR) dependent reporter gene expression was two times lower as compared to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Receptor binding tests demonstrate that DMT binds with high selectivity to the AR, binding to the progesterone receptor (PR) was low. In vivo experiments in orchiectomised rats demonstrated that treatment with DMT resulted only in a stimulation of the weight of the levator ani muscle; the prostate and seminal vesicle weights remained unaffected. Like testosterone, administration of DMT resulted in a stimulation of IGF-1 and myostatin mRNA expression in the gastrocnemius muscle. In the prostate proliferation was stimulated by TP (testosteronepropionate), but remained unaffected by DMT. Remarkably, treatment with DMT, in contrast to TP, resulted in a significant increase of the heart weight. In the liver, DMT slightly stimulates the expression of the tyrosine aminotransferase gene (TAT). Our results demonstrate that DMT is a potent AR agonist with an anabolic activity. Besides the levator ani weight, DMT also modulates the gene expression in the musculus gastrocnemius. The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase of the heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an indication for side effects. Summarizing these data it is obvious that DMT is a powerful anabolic steroid with selective androgen receptor modulators (SARM) like properties and some indications for toxic side effects. Therefore, there is a need for a strict control of a possible misuse.
In comparing the effects of this drug to testosterone, it appears that DMT has very little effects on the prostate when compared to test administration. You must remember however, that test will convert to DHT which is known for having significant effects on the prostate health.

Has anyone read the full text of this article? I don't see how anyone could really make an accurate conclusion from the study without seeing the doses used. For instance, if there is a comparatively high dose of DMT to testosterone, then these results should come as no surprise.

Also, I've seen a few of you state that DMT has significantly higher affinity for heart ARs. As far as I can see, this was never stated in the article. It did state that DMT has high AR affinity, but so do lots of steroids. I've seen no evidence to really show that this should be a concern unique to DMT.

BTW...sorry for all the posts. Just trying to catch up on this thread.
 
Ziquor

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Not sure where you're getting this information, but testosterone and DHT both bind to AR in the heart and can cause hearty hypertrophy.
Is that similar to Campbell's hearty chicken noodle soup?
 
poopypants

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Where is this class I vs class II steroid stuff coming from? All anabolic steroids are AR agonists, this is how they exert their anabolic effects.
This is not true, look up Anadrol profiles, its quite odd, Its one of the most powerfull steroids and its affinity for the AR is ooo low that anything taken with it will win in competition but its effects are all still fully present due to indirect intrensic activity it has. Now on the other hand it doesnt actually aromatize BUT can directly bind to an estrogen receptor itself, so an AI like what may be used with test or Dbol is useless and you HAVE to use a SERM.

Dont know how accurate the classI classII lists are but there are def steroids that dont have to bind to the AR whatsoever to make an effect occur.

edit

Anadrol Oxymetholone Anabolic Steroids Profile
Another important and often understated characteristic of this compound is that Oxymetholone doesn´t bind well to the androgen receptor (Relative Binding Affinity = too low to be determined) (3) which is the lowest I´ve ever read about. Basically, what this tells me is that there are a lot of non-receptor mediated effects from this steroid, making it a very potent addition to ANY BULKING stack, because it won´t be competing for the receptor sites with the other steroids you´re using. It´s also, as you may have guessed a very poor choice for a cutting stack.
 
poopypants

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Also this is in the first paragraph of BC's profile

Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - In Depth Anadrol Profile!
Oxymetholone is without a doubt the strongest and most visibly active steroid to date. Not only does it act very rapidly, it causes a virtual explosion of mass. Gains of up to 10 pounds in 2 weeks are not uncommon. This is largely due to a moderate to low androgenic effect combined with a high anabolic activity also mediated by non-AR mechanisms (mechanisms other than simply binding the androgen receptor). You can imagine that the gains made on oxymetholone aren't the leanest. You would note a drastic smoothing out of the muscle due to estrogen-related fat (lipolysis) and water retention. This lipolysis has been shown to be rather drastic. One study1 on long-term hemodialysis patients showed beyond a doubt the role that oxymetholone can play in causing hyperlipedemia. The fat deposition rate, post-hepatic (after processing by the liver), increased drastically in the oxymetholone group while numbers remained stable in the control group
 
Chad

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This is not true, look up Anadrol profiles, its quite odd, Its one of the most powerfull steroids and its affinity for the AR is ooo low that anything taken with it will win in competition but its effects are all still fully present due to indirect intrensic activity it has. Now on the other hand it doesnt actually aromatize BUT can directly bind to an estrogen receptor itself, so an AI like what may be used with test or Dbol is useless and you HAVE to use a SERM.

Dont know how accurate the classI classII lists are but there are def steroids that dont have to bind to the AR whatsoever to make an effect occur.

edit

Anadrol Oxymetholone Anabolic Steroids Profile

thats right poopy!!! preach on bro!
 
poopypants

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Im about to make this into a new thread as well for easier finding in the future.... but this sheds considerable light on the way different AAS interacts with the AR and shows many although to a miniscul imeasurable degree do bind to the AR its not necessary to enact its effects.


http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/berardi/androgen-action-and-the-androgen-receptor.htm
Introductory Physiology and Pharmacology of Androgens

Endogenous androgens are well known for their many functions in promoting sexual differentiation and the induction of the male phenotype. In the male, the two endogenous androgens most active in promoting these effects are testosterone (T) and dihydroxytestosterone (DHT). T is the most quantitatively important androgen in systemic circulation while DHT is the most abundant cellular metabolite and most potent androgen in most androgen sensitive tissues (excluding skeletal muscle; Mainwaring 1977).

The physiological effects of androgens have been discussed since the 1930's when several investigators observed that the injection of male urinary extracts into dogs not only promoted androgenic effects on the canine reproductive tract but also caused nitrogen retention or an anabolic effect (Kochakian and Mrulin 1935). Since then, much information has been gathered about the various anabolic and androgenic effects of exogenous androgens on human physiology (Braunstien 1997). During fetal development androgens are important in the appropriate differentiation of the internal and external male genital systems. Later, during puberty, androgens mediate growth and functional integrity of the scrotum, epididymis, vas deferens, seminal vesicles, prostate, and penis. During this time androgens also stimulate skeletal muscle growth, growth of the larynx, and stimulate the pubertal growth spurt. Both ambisexual hair growth and sexual hair growth as well as sebaceous gland activity are regulated by androgens throughout the life cycle. Finally, androgens also play many diverse roles in the adult including: behavioral roles (sexuality, aggression, mood, and cognitive function), regulation of spermatogenesis, regulation of bone metabolism, maintenance of muscle mass and muscle function, various effects on the cardiovascular system, and regulation of prostate cancer (Nieschlag and Behre 1998). This list is far from exhaustive as androgens most likely play roles in nearly every organ and cell of the body. As further investigations are conducted, additional physiological effects of endogenous androgens will surely be uncovered.

Although the prior brief discussion has dealt with the physiological effects of the endogenous androgens T and DHT, it must be noted that numerous exogenous steroids have been synthesized in attempts to alter the anabolic to androgenic ratios relative to these two hormones (for a review see Vida 1969). In clinical situations of hypogonadism, T replacement is necessary to replace both the anabolic and androgenic effects of the deficient endogenous androgens. In such situations, T therapy alone is warranted. But in other situations of anabolic deficiency such as catabolic wasting syndromes and administration of glucocorticoids, agents that promote anabolism (nitrogen retention) in the absence of androgenic effects are desirable. Although these agents were originally called "anabolic steroids", no compound has yet been synthesized that completely dissociates anabolic from androgenic effects. Therefore these agents are still properly termed anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS). Interestingly, subsequent investigations of various anabolic androgenic compounds have demonstrated that many (but not all) of the compounds with very low affinity for the androgen receptor have a more complete dissociation of androgenic and anabolic effects (Saartok et al 1984, Dahlberg et al 1981). Since their relative binding affinities can be as low as 0.01, the mechanism of action of anabolic androgenic steroids might only be directly receptor dependent in a few situations. These situations include extensive intracellular metabolism of the low affinity anabolic androgenic compounds to high affinity compounds or concentration dependent displacement of receptor bound T and DHT by the anabolic androgenic compounds (Gustafsson et al 1984). In addition, even in the absence of viable androgen receptors, these compounds exert androgen specific or anabolic effects in various tissues of the body (Rommerts 1998). These observations may offer indirect evidence for distinct androgen receptor dependent (direct) and androgen receptor independent (indirect) mechanisms of action for the various endogenous and exogenous anabolic androgenic steroids. In fact, Rommerts et al propose that although distinct in some tissues, direct and indirect androgen action may be closely linked in tissues sensitive to both effects (Rommerts 1998). As androgen research becomes more advanced and focuses on examining the androgen receptor, nuclear androgen response elements, and androgen signaling, researchers are getting closer to the desired dissociation of anabolic and androgenic effects.

Androgen Action - Direct and Indirect Mechanisms

Androgen action on target cells remains only partially characterized and understood. Original investigators believed that androgens exerted their effects only through a cytosolic androgen receptor present only in sex-dependent tissues of the body. Today we know the situation to be more complex as both direct or genomic effects as well as indirect or non-genomic effects have been uncovered in nearly every tissue of the body. In addition, androgen receptors have been localized in many tissues not thought to be androgen sensitive. Using radioligand binding techniques, biochemical exchange assays, and immunohistochemical techniques, it is clear that androgen receptors are present in both cytosolic as well as nuclear cellular compartments (Sar et al. 1990).

Although androgens possess both genomic (direct) and non-genomic (indirect) actions, it has been thought that the majority of their action is through direct activation of DNA transcription via high affinity interactions with intracellular androgen receptors (AR). At least it is though so because these interactions have been studied in the most detail. Although receptor dependent interactions may ultimately turn out to be quantitatively most important, as androgen receptor independent actions continue to be uncovered, the importance of these non-genomic interactions may shed new light on androgen's effects.

It has been demonstrated that some androgen sensitive tissues do not contain nuclear androgen response elements (ARE). In addition, other androgen sensitive tissues do not contain viable intracellular androgen receptors due to AR insensitivity, the absence of AR, or AR blockade. As a result, it has been hypothesized that endogenous androgens (T and DHT for example) may act indirectly on cells without the presence of an AR. To this end, it is thought that androgens might can act as mediators of secondary transcription factors; that they might act in the regulation of autocrine and paracrine mediators of gene expression; or that they might influence the secretion of other hormones that mediate androgen effects in distant tissues (Verhoeven and Swinnen 1999). In addition it is thought that some of these effects may be the result of plasma protein bound androgen interaction with extracellular receptors (Rommerts 1998). Some of the postulated non-genomic, AR-independent effects of androgens include:

* increases in both liver derived and locally produced IGF-I and IGF-I mRNA (Arnold et al 1996, Mauras et al 1998)
* displacement of glucocorticoids from the glucocorticoid receptor and interference of glucocorticoid binding to glucocorticoid response elements (Hickson et al 1990, Danhaive and Rousseau 1986, Danhaive and Rousseau 1988)
* the release of several autocrine "andromedins" including androgen induced growth factor, schwannoma-derived growth factor, keratinocyte growth factor, and fibroblast growth factor, to name a few (Tanaka et al 1992, Sonoda et al 1992, Yan et al 1992)
* transmembrane influx of extracellular calcium (Koenig et al 1989, Lieberherr and Grosse 1994, Steinsapir et al 1991)
* activation of extracellular signal-related kinase cascades via binding to a yet unidentified extracellular receptor (Peterziel 1998)

Although the indirect androgen actions discussed above are still subject to speculation, the evidence for androgen receptor independent action is becoming more impressive. Direct androgen action, on the other hand, is well characterized.

There is however some ambiguity as to whether androgen binds the AR in the cytosol or in the nuclear membrane. Regardless, the AR is typically bound to heat shock protein 90 that maintains the AR inactive state and the AR hormone binding affinity (Fang et al 1996). Upon binding however, direct androgen action is initiated as inhibitory heat shock proteins are released from the androgen receptor. The AR is then phosphorylated and undergoes a conformational change necessary for translocation and dimerization (Grino et al. 1987). Although in the wild-type receptor, this ligand binding is necessary for transcriptional activity, one in vivo receptor with a deleted ligand binding domain does posess transcriptional activity. This may indicate that the unliganded binding domain is actually a repressor of receptor action due to conformational constraints in the unbound receptor possessing the ligand binding domain (Jenster et al 1991). Once in the nucleus (either by direct binding there or by translocation), the phosphorylated receptor is dimerized and binds to a DNA androgen response element (ARE). The hormone response element, which is also bound by other hormone receptors from this family, is a 15 base pair sequence responsible for transcription initiation. Once bound, other transcription regulating proteins or co-activators may also bind the AR-ARE complex to stabilize the promoter of the regulated gene (Shibata et al 1997, Kang 1999). Such co-activators include proteins such as ARA 54, ARA 55, ARA 70, ARA 160 (Yeh et al 1996, Hsiao et al 1999). This binding of such co-factors ultimately results in the regulation of transcription rate. The resultant mRNA from androgen dependent transcription is then processed and transported to ribosomes where it is translated into proteins that can alter cellular function. Although the above mechanism is by far the most predominant, in some tissues there is evidence for a ligand-independent dependent activation of transcriptional activity via the AR. As mentioned above, an unliganded receptor with a deletion of the ligand binding domain may possess activity. This indicates activity in the absence of ligand binding. In addition, growth factors (insulin-like growth factor, keratinocyte growth factor, and epidermial growth factor) as well as protein kinase A activators might be able to induce a transcriptionally active AR in the absence of ligand binding (Culig et al 1995, Nazareth and Weigel 1996). Some of these ligand independent transcription activators may act via influencing the AR phosphorylation state.


continued on next post........
 
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... continued from previous post.

The Androgen Receptor

The androgen receptor is a member of the steroid receptor family of nuclear transcription factors. This family is a group of structurally related nuclear transcription factors that mediate the action of steroid hormones. The steroid receptor family includes three other receptors including the glucocorticoid receptor, the mineralocorticoid receptor, and the progesterone receptor (Beato 1989). Although there are several regions of each receptor that are heterologous, the ligand-binding and DNA-binding domains are surprisingly highly conserved (Sheffeild-Moore 2000). In addition to their structural homology, these receptors also are related by their ability to activate gene transcription via the same DNA hormone response element (Quigley et al 1995).

There are two characterized forms of the androgen receptor. The first, and predominant form, is a 110-114 kDa protein of 910-919 amino acids (Jenster et al 1991, Wilson et al 1992, Liao et al 1989). The second is a smaller 87 kDa protein of about 720-729 amino acids in length that makes up only about 4-26% of the detectible androgen receptors located in varying tissues (Wilson and McPhaul 1996). The relevance of this second form of receptor is unknown, but the full-length receptor has been well-characterized. The isolation and characterization of this form of the human androgen receptor cDNA has allowed for sequencing of its amino acid constituents (Chang et al 1989).

The human androgen receptor is a single polypeptide comprised of four discrete functional domains (Quigley 1998).

The A/B region is the N-terminal domain of the AR and comprises over half of the receptor protein (residues 1-537). Within this domain is a transcription activation region and several regions of homopolymeric amino acid stretches that may be important in transcriptional regulation. These amino acid stretches may also be important in interactions with other regions of the receptor protein and in determining the three-dimensional structure of the receptor. Among the four members of the steroid receptor family, this region is poorly conserved both in length and sequence similarity (Evans 1988). The C region of the AR (residues 559-624) is the DNA binding domain. This region is composed of two folded "zinc fingers" which each binding one zinc ion. The first zinc finger is responsible for recognition of the target DNA sequence while the second stabilizes DNA-receptor interaction by contact with the DNA phosphate backbone (Freedman 1992, Berg 1989). Between members of the steroid receptor family, this region is the most highly conserved. At the overlap between the between the C and D regions, there is a nuclear targeting sequence (amino acids 617-633) that is responsible for androgen dependent translocation from the cytosol to the nucleus (Jenster 1993). The D region, or hinge region (residues 625-669), seems to be responsible for androgen dependent conformational changes of the AR. In addition, one of the AR phosphorylation sites is located in this region (Zhou et al 1995). Finally, the E region is the C-terminal domain of the androgen receptor and is responsible for ligand binding. This region consists of about 250 amino acids (residues 670-920) and functions in specific, high affinity binding of androgens. This region is also thought to be the binding site for inhibitory proteins such as the 90 kDa heat shock protein that resides on the inactivated AR. Transcriptional co-activators may also reside here (Jenster 1991).


The AR, as described above, has been identified in a vast array of genital and non-genital tissues using several techniques including northern and western blot analysis as well as immunohistochemical techniques. Most recently, immunohistochemical techniques have become the predominant method of characterization of both cellular and subcellular distribution of the AR due to the sensitivity, specificity, and ease of the method (Ruizeveld De Winter et al 1991, Kadi et al 1999, Sar et al 1990). Using immunohistochemical techniques, the AR has been clearly demonstrated in nearly all tissues (Janssen et al 1994, Kimura et al 1993, Takeda et al 1990). As mentioned earlier, despite characterization in both the cytosol and nucleus, the exact location of ligand binding is not yet clear. The predominant model (shown above in figure 1) however suggests that the cytosolic AR is inactive until it binds ligand. At this point it it undergoes an appropriate conformational change and it is transolcated to the nucleus via the nuclear targeting sequence (residues 617-633; Grino et al 1987, Jenster et al 1993, Zhou et al 1994). At this point, it is able to undergo binding to the androgen response element.

Based on early studies, the AR has been identified as a high affinity, low capacity receptor. Saturation binding analyses done using the androgen receptor radiolabelled ligands [3H]-T, [3H]-methyltrienolone (MT), and [3H]-DHT have shown saturability and therefore have been analyzed using scatchard plots corrected for nonspecific binding. The results of such investigations have been difficult to interpret however due to several confounding variables. First, since the amount of AR protein seems to be very low, small experimental errors will translate into large statistical errors. In addition, a significant amount of non-specific binding is found in AR experiments (Snochowski et al 1979). If this binding is not corrected for, then experimental errors could again be large. Also, androgens (especially T and DHT but not MT) are subject to several metabolic enzyme systems that differ between tissues. If uncontrolled, these metabolic pathways could also confound results. For example, measurements of apparent DHT binding to the AR may be underestimated due to metabolic conversion to androstanediols that do not bind to the receptor while the measures for apparent T binding could be overestimated due to formation of DHT which will bind strongly to the receptor (Michel and Baulieu 1980). Finally, since Kd values and Bmax values for the AR are variable with species, sex, age, and androgen levels, controlling all variables relevant to the AR presents a difficult proposition (Stahl et al 1978). As a result of the potential confounds discussed, Kd values from 0.074nM up to 6.4nM and Bmax values from 1-30 fmol/mg protein have been reported for the AR in various tissues using different radiolabelled ligands. With this said, close inspection of the published literature reveals that since different radiolabelled ligands have been used in the research, since different cytosolic preparations have been employed, and since different populations and species have been used, it only stands to reason that variable results have been obtained.

In this review, I will discuss binding affinity and capacity in one tissue (skeletal muscle) to simplify the discussion. Since skeletal muscle does not possess significant amounts of the enzyme responsible for the conversion of T to DHT (5alpha reductase), T is the predominant AR ligand. In research examining the skeletal muscle AR using labeled T, the lack of metabolic conversion to DHT helps to eliminate one potential confound. Other metabolic conversions using the 3alpha- and 3beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases remain and can only be controlled by the addition of ammonium sulfate to the cytosolic preparation to eliminate the activity of these enzymes (Michel and Baulieu 1980). These two precautionary measures, however are incomplete and the synthesis of methyltrienolone (17 alpha-methyl-3-oxo-estra-4,9,11-trien-17 beta-ol), which binds to the AR with the same affinity as T yet is not metabolizable, was of greta value to AR binding studies. The use of labeled MT therefore has added another element of control to AR studies.

Preliminary work by Michel and Baulieu using [3H]-T and [3H]-androstanolone (DHT) ligands in enzyme-free preparations of castrate male and female rat quadriceps femoris yielded similar Kd values for both ligands of approximately 0.70nM (Michel and Baulieu 1980). These values are similar to several other reports of T affinity in skeletal muscle. In another investigation using rat thigh homogenates prepared with [3H]-T, Kd values of approximately 1nM and Bmax values of 15-30 fmol/mg protein were found (Michel and Baulieu 1974). The Bmax values in this experiment are higher than those reported anywhere else in the literature for skeletal muscle. Krieg et al, using [3H]-androstanolone (DHT) in rat muscle homogenates found a Kd range of 1.4nM to 6.4nM and 0.8-4.2 fmol/mg protein (Krieg 1976). Krieg et al could not explain the reason for differences between their work and the work of Michel and Baulieu but hypothesized that such errors could potentially arise due to the very small amount of receptors in the cytosol as well as the fact that these receptors are very difficult to isolate. Later work by Saatok et al, using the nonmetabolizable [3H]- MT in rabbit skeletal muscle cytosol preparations, found Kd values of 1.25-1.66nM and Bmax values of 2.76-5.18 fmol/mg protein, potentially confirming the work of Krieg (Saatok 1984). Finally, work by Snochowski et al also using [3H]- MT in male and female human skeletal muscle cytosolic preparations has indicated that Kd values for the AR were approximately 0.074-0.7nM (mean of 0.28nM) while Bmax values were 1-4fmol/mg protein (Snochowski et al 1981). From these variable data it is obvious that although the AR is clearly a high affinity and low capacity receptor, useful and consistent quantitative data have not been obtained regarding affinity and capacity in muscle. The differences in this literature again could be due to the different radioligands used in the studies, different ages and androgen levels in the subject populations, and amplified experimental errors due to such small levels of detectible AR protein. To discuss skeletal muscle in relation to the prostate, although variable results have been obtained for prostate tissue as well, Bmax values seem to be about 10fold lower (per mg protein) while Kd values are of a similar magnitude (Ekman et al 1979).

Androgen Metabolism and AR Binding

To further elaborate on the importance of androgen metabolism in the determination of AR levels and, more importantly, in the mechanism of action of androgens, a brief discussion of this subject is in order. T and DHT are the two most potent androgens in the body however their relative importance in different tissues varies. It is known that although the prostate AR can bind both T and DHT, the affinity of the AR for T is only 33% of that for DHT (Grover et al 1975). In contrast, in skeletal muscle and kidney fractions, the binding affinity for T is greater than that for DHT despite affinity for both ligands (Gloyna and Wilson 1969, Bullock et al 1974). T itself is extensively metabolized in most androgen-sensitive tissues. The predominant metabolite in the prostate, for example, is DHT. Important in this metabolic pathway are the relative levels of 5alpha reductase and 3alpha- and 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases. Since DHT is the active metabolite in most tissues, high conversion of T to DHT via the 5 alpha reductase pathway and low metabolism of DHT via the 3 hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase pathways is necessary for optimal androgen action (Rommerts 1999). In skeletal musle, on the other hand, 5alpha reductase activity is low while 3alpha- and 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity is higher leading to a predomination of T and other inactive metabolites. In fact, in skeletal muscle, less than 5% of T is metabolized (Minguell and Sierralta 1975). This is optimal due to the fact that in skeletal muscle, the AR has a higher affinity for T than for DHT. Interestingly, despite the differences between the metabolic pathways for T as well as the differences in affinities for various T metabolites, the AR appears to be nearly identical in structure across androgen sensitive tissues. The differences in androgen action between tissues is now thought to be due to DNA response elements as well as specific co-activators or repressors present in the different tissues.

Conclusions

In conclusion, this review has discussed several relevant topics in androgen pharmacology, physiology, and receptor theory. Although much is yet to be discovered regarding androgen mechanism of action, the androgen receptor, regulation of androgen receptor mediated transcription, and control of the androgenic and anabolic effects of testosterone and its metabolites, new discoveries are rapidly being reported. With investigations currently being conducted to examine androgen receptor co-activator proteins as well as androgen response element functions in a wide spectrum of tissues, manipulation of some of the diverse actions of androgens can be postulated. And these discoveries may contribute to the holy grail of androgen research; successful dissociation of the anabolic and androgenic affects of androgens.
 
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Chronic hypertension is the main culprit in pathological heart hypertrophy. Peripheral resistance requires that the heart pump with either more frequency, more force, or both. This generally leads to a narrowing of the heart chambers and decreases the organ's pumping efficiency.

Cardiovascular exercise can also increase the size of the heart, but this also increases the heart's efficiency.
Right on quigs. Left Ventricular Hypertrophy is the direct result of a persistantly elevated afterload resistance(the afterload is a consequence of the blood pressure, since the pressure in the ventricle must be greater than the peripheral blood pressure in order to open the aortic valve.) Chronic uncontrolled hypertension is the most serious risk factor for left sided heart failure.

As a result, the pathologic process that occurs is left ventricular muscle wall thickening that causes the internal chambers to narrow making it less efficient in overall cardiac output(stroke volume(the amount of blood pumped by the left/right ventricle in one contraction) x heart rate) The main causes of this concerning cardiomyopathy are persitant uncontrolled blood pressure, aortic valve stenosis, aortic valve insufficency, or mitral valve(bi-cuspid) regurgitation.
 
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Sulfa drugs are completely different. There should be no problem taking epistane/havoc...if your concern is the sulfur. You consume sulfur in your diet all the time. Don't let this be the reason you avoid this compound.
Here's some more info on the topic at hand here of sulfa allergy:



The Confusion with Sulfa, Sulfite and Sulfate Allergies


Many people report an allergy to a "sulfur" drug when they go to the doctor....believe me when i say it's the next most common allergy stated next to PCN. But what does this actually mean? Usually, a person means that they have experienced an adverse effect from a sulfa-containing antibiotic, such as Bactrim. However, it may mean something much different, and it usually does. Sulfa medications come in 2 types, antibiotics (such as Bactrim) and non-antibiotics (such as Celebrex). This is usually the medications that people are referring to when they say they have a "sulfur allergy".Sulfites are preservatives in foods and medications, and not related to sulfa drugs.
Sulfates are "salts" of various medications, such as albuterol sulfate nebulizer medication used to treat asthma. These medications usually do not contain sulfa or sulfites.
How do you tell the difference? What about sulfites and sulfates? It turns out that these three terms are quite different, and that a person who has experienced a reaction to one does not necessarily need to avoid the others.


Sulfa Medication Allergy:What is a sulfa allergy?


"Sulfa allergy" is a term used to describe adverse drug reactions to sulfonamides, a group of drugs that includes those with and without antibiotic characteristics. Antibiotic sulfonamides were the first antibiotics used to treat infections, although today are used much less frequently given their common side effects. Common sulfa antibiotics include Septra, Bactrim, and Pediazole. The antibiotic sulfonamides are different structurally from the non-antibiotic sulfonamides, and appear to be much more likely to result in allergic reactions. Many of the sulfa non-antibiotics, therefore, do not cause problems in people with sulfa antibiotic allergy.

Sulfa allergies are beyond exagerated in general. The antibiotic sulfonamides account for the large majority of associated allergies/allergic reactions. Thus, just because something contains sulfur doesn't mean that the same properties will apply in regard to allergic reaction
 
poopypants

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Here's some more info on the topic at hand here of sulfa allergy:



The Confusion with Sulfa, Sulfite and Sulfate Allergies


Many people report an allergy to a "sulfur" drug when they go to the doctor....believe me when i say it's the next most common allery stated next to PCN. But what does this actually mean? Usually, a person means that they have experienced an adverse effect from a sulfa-containing antibiotic, such as Bactrim. However, it may mean something much different, and it usually does. Sulfa medications come in 2 types, antibiotics (such as Bactrim) and non-antibiotics (such as Celebrex). This is usually the medications that people are referring to when they say they have a "sulfur allergy".Sulfites are preservatives in foods and medications, and not related to sulfa drugs.
Sulfates are "salts" of various medications, such as albuterol sulfate nebulizer medication used to treat asthma. These medications usually do not contain sulfa or sulfites.
How do you tell the difference? What about sulfites and sulfates? It turns out that these three terms are quite different, and that a person who has experienced a reaction to one does not necessarily need to avoid the others.


Sulfa Medication Allergy:What is a sulfa allergy?


"Sulfa allergy" is a term used to describe adverse drug reactions to sulfonamides, a group of drugs that includes those with and without antibiotic characteristics. Antibiotic sulfonamides were the first antibiotics used to treat infections, although today are used much less frequently given their common side effects. Common sulfa antibiotics include Septra, Bactrim, and Pediazole. The antibiotic sulfonamides are different structurally from the non-antibiotic sulfonamides, and appear to be much more likely to result in allergic reactions. Many of the sulfa non-antibiotics, therefore, do not cause problems in people with sulfa antibiotic allergy.

Sulfa allergies are beyond exagerated in general. The antibiotic sulfonamides account for the large majority of associated allergies/allergic reactions. Thus, just because something contains sulfur doesn't mean that the same properties will apply in regard to allergic reaction
very very nice, this is basically what i was saing Dr D was telling me back when, that its not the same as normal drugs and its not like the sulfur detaches.
 
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very very nice, this is basically what i was saing Dr D was telling me back when, that its not the same as normal drugs and its not like the sulfur detaches.
Yes sir poops, exactly. Dr.D is right on as usual :). I just thought i'd help support that truth because i seriously see this issue ALL the time in my job......especially with sulfa allergies. The whole allergy issue is so unbelieveably blown out of proportion at times.
 
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yeah, i think we need to really look at the fact that the dosages are not listed in the studies on DMT.


Reps to quigs. (sorry bro, i called you skye, which could be a compliment :) )
 

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I believe that this is the study that you guys are referring to:

Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of...[Toxicol Lett. 2007] - PubMed Result



In comparing the effects of this drug to testosterone, it appears that DMT has very little effects on the prostate when compared to test administration. You must remember however, that test will convert to DHT which is known for having significant effects on the prostate health.

Has anyone read the full text of this article? I don't see how anyone could really make an accurate conclusion from the study without seeing the doses used. For instance, if there is a comparatively high dose of DMT to testosterone, then these results should come as no surprise.

Also, I've seen a few of you state that DMT has significantly higher affinity for heart ARs. As far as I can see, this was never stated in the article. It did state that DMT has high AR affinity, but so do lots of steroids. I've seen no evidence to really show that this should be a concern unique to DMT.

BTW...sorry for all the posts. Just trying to catch up on this thread.
Your posts are welcome as always quigs, glad you could make it.
Yes this is the study I was referring to and I agree it's almost impossible to decipher what effect, negative/positive the DMT administered had without knowing the doses used. The study does state "remarkably the treatment of DMT in contrast to TP resulted in a significant increase in heart weight" which is were the alarm starts to sound.
They may have comparatively used the same dosing for both TP and DMT, we don't know but the wording seems to suggest this. Still there is no way of telling what doses were used.
Also many people complain of chest pains and shortness of breath while using this compound which in turn lends itself to the statement in the study "The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase in heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an INDICATION OF SIDE EFFECTS"
 
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This is not true, look up Anadrol profiles, its quite odd, Its one of the most powerfull steroids and its affinity for the AR is ooo low that anything taken with it will win in competition but its effects are all still fully present due to indirect intrensic activity it has. Now on the other hand it doesnt actually aromatize BUT can directly bind to an estrogen receptor itself, so an AI like what may be used with test or Dbol is useless and you HAVE to use a SERM.

Dont know how accurate the classI classII lists are but there are def steroids that dont have to bind to the AR whatsoever to make an effect occur.

edit

Anadrol Oxymetholone Anabolic Steroids Profile
I'm kinda strapped for time here but I'll post quick and get back to it later more in depth.

You must remember that AR affinity does not necessarily correlate to the anabolic activity of a compound. A compound with a lower affinity to AR (when compared to other androgens) will simply need more in order to activate all the available receptors. Once bound the receptor undergoes a conformational change, and the receptor together the with bound hormone enter the nucleus to act upon transcription....leading to protein synthesis. Different androgens have different properties, some are more anabolic while others are more androgenic. All known AAS do bind to AR's however...even anadrol.

ER's and progestins are anabolic as well...so compounds which activate these pathways will indeed lead to greater mass gain. For example, testosterone is such a good bulker because of its ability to aromatize. When taken with a potent AI, its effects will be diminished.
 
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Your posts are welcome as always quigs, glad you could make it.
Yes this is the study I was referring to and I agree it's almost impossible to decipher what effect, negative/positive the DMT administered had without knowing the doses used. The study does state "remarkably the treatment of DMT in contrast to TP resulted in a significant increase in heart weight" which is were the alarm starts to sound.
They may have comparatively used the same dosing for both TP and DMT, we don't know but the wording seems to suggest this. Still there is no way of telling what doses were used.
Also many people complain of chest pains and shortness of breath while using this compound which in turn lends itself to the statement in the study "The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase in heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an INDICATION OF SIDE EFFECTS"
If they are comparing 20mg of TP to 20mg of DMT (just an example here) then of course there will be a significant difference. DMT is much more potent than test mg for mg. This is why we really need the full text of this article to get a better idea on whether this study holds merit in terms of DMT use.

The shortness of breath may be due to the increased BP that this compound induces. For example, my BP went from around 120/78 to 140/88 while on DMT. I did not experience shortness of breath or chest pains. The effects were transient however, and I was back to baseline BP numbers within a month post cycle. Whether its due to increased androgenic activity at the heart, or due to other factors is still yet to be determined.
 
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Is that similar to Campbell's hearty chicken noodle soup?
Soupy?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMDKXzfbrYE"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
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I'm kinda strapped for time here but I'll post quick and get back to it later more in depth.

You must remember that AR affinity does not necessarily correlate to the anabolic activity of a compound. A compound with a lower affinity to AR (when compared to other androgens) will simply need more in order to activate all the available receptors. Once bound the receptor undergoes a conformational change, and the receptor together the with bound hormone enter the nucleus to act upon transcription....leading to protein synthesis. Different androgens have different properties, some are more anabolic while others are more androgenic. All known anabolic steroids do bind to AR's however...even anadrol.
Yes, but I think this was the point with the class I/II stuff as well, that some have activity even when paired with another compound that due to higher AR affinity binds first. So their anabolic activity is not entirely from AR binding, but also through some other means as well. I'm not sure however.
 
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Right on quigs. Left Ventricular Hypertrophy is the direct result of a persistantly elevated afterload resistance(the afterload is a consequence of the blood pressure, since the pressure in the ventricle must be greater than the peripheral blood pressure in order to open the aortic valve.) Chronic uncontrolled hypertension is the most serious risk factor for left sided heart failure.

As a result, the pathologic process that occurs is left ventricular muscle wall thickening that causes the internal chambers to narrow making it less efficient in overall cardiac output(stroke volume(the amount of blood pumped by the left/right ventricle in one contraction) x heart rate) The main causes of this concerning cardiomyopathy are persitant uncontrolled blood pressure, aortic valve stenosis, aortic valve insufficency, or mitral valve(bi-cuspid) regurgitation.
's what I said!:)
 
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's what I said!:)
yepper, i just elaborated a bit. :) Cardiomegaly is also very prevelant in people with valve disorders, chronic anemia, and thyroid pathologies. Treating the underlying cause early is prevention at its best.
 
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Here it is guys from the horses mouth..... Epistane is totally NOT DMT.. nor will it degrade into DMT.... this was posted on the IBE forums regarding a seperate topic but still applies with the information given within, I will post a link as well so you can check the context in which this reply was made but Im certain you will conclude the same, if it doesnt test as methyl test at all then theres no possible way for it to be degrading to DMT in the body, THE END!

Ok, first of all, this stuff is totally off the map! It is just the oral version of a compound that has been used exclusively to treat breast cancer sinse the 50's so a good solid safey record too, though it is not an Rx product in America but used a lot in the east. It have never been tested for or even recognized as an anabolic or androgen (testosterone derivative). Technically, it is classified as an anti-neoplastic! There is not a test in the world that could define it's presence in your system. You could see a peak for it in the chromatography of a mass spec, but that doesn't mean it would match anything in any library or be definable at all! If you can't say what "it" is then "it" necessarily can't be illegal! See what I mean? Even it's related parent compound in not classified as an androgen, so it it very safe to use if your tested. It is excreted mostly unchanged with only trace metabolites and none of them are illegal.
correlate the two bolded statements and youll see the obivous outcome ive arrived at are absolutely true.
IBE Forums Version 2.0 Beta
 
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Schism if you approve id like for you to update your first post with an edit quoting this and the fact the topic has been cleared up for the lazy guys who may lose interest reading through the rest of this thread and wont find the end conclusion. thanks my man.
 
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BTW guys let the word be spread.... Epistane is being capsulated as we speak and will hit some distributors in 10 days flat... the rest will be getting theirs within days of that time.... thisis the BIGGEST Epi run made to date by almost 2X and will be around for a while.... well maybe not with how much everyone wants it.
 

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Schism if you approve id like for you to update your first post with an edit quoting this and the fact the topic has been cleared up for the lazy guys who may lose interest reading through the rest of this thread and wont find the end conclusion. thanks my man.
Alright poopy you got it brother, I changed it but I didn't want to! Everyone should have to suffer through this madness as we all did. lol....:dump:
 
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Alright poopy you got it brother, I changed it but I didn't want to! Everyone should have to suffer through this madness as we all did. lol....:dump:
LOL, ya was a bit of craziness there.... at least we boiled down to the bottom of it though :thumbsup:
 
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LMAO just read the edit you made, quite comical my friend :toofunny:
 

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LMAO just read the edit you made, quite comical my friend :toofunny:
No problem brother. Thanks for all your help with sorting out this Madness. I really appreciate it! It's great to come hear and post-up questions to things (that no one I would probably ever come across at the gym or on the street would have the answers too) and get them sorted out by cool knowledgeable people like yourself.:thumbsup: Your repped poopdog..
 

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