Epistane Cycle with OCT PCT!

[Eagleman003]

Epistane Cycle with OTC PCT!

Hey guys this is my 3rd cycle. I am looking to gain about 8 pounds of lean muscle and I want my bf% to go from 12.8 to11%. All majors up a good 25-30lbs hopefully. I am using a higher frequency split then normal.

Day 1 - chest and back (8-10 sets each)
Day 2 - Off/Cardio 25 min 55% Intensity 130BPM
Day 3 - Shoulders and Traps (7-10 Sets Each)
Day 4 - SuperSet Arms (7-9 Set Each)
Day 5 - Off/Cardio 25 min 55% Intensity 130BPM
Day 6 - Repeat Day 1

Every other week I will add in a day of rest between day 3 and day 4. So one week every muscle is trained every 5 days and the next week it will be every 6 days. Do you guys think this is a good idea or is it a decrease in overload to give an extra day of rest?

CYCLE TIME

Epistane 30/30/40/40 (30 Days)
Cycle Support - 2 Scoops a Day
All the Basics

post cycle therapy TIME

Post Cycle Support - 5/4/4/3
6-oxo - 600/300/300/200
Retain2 - 3/2/1 or 3/3 ?
Gaspari Nutrition SizeOn
Cycle Support - 1 Scoop EOD
All the Basics

I bought 90 caps of 6-oxo and only 45 of retain so im not running full bottles on both of those two. I will keep calories high post cycle as well as maintain around the same overload on my muscles without overtraining. Questions? Comments?

 

[AnonyMoose]

i would add a serm and a test booster in that pct.

 

[luke1984]

i would add a serm and a test booster in that post cycle therapy.

And take out the 6oxo. You don't want to completely kill estrogen. Tamoxifen or Toremifen will do fine.

 

[AnonyMoose]

right-i said add - don't replace (keep the 6oxo in)

 

[Eagleman003]

my bigest concern is a decrease in libido. PCS has horny goat weed and 6-oxo helps to boost my test levels and so does PCS. The main ingredient in PCS has SERM like properties and thast my "OTC SERM". I am under no circumstances getting a serm. I have Nolvadex on hand in case I get a flare up of gyno which is HIGHLY unlikely. How is the combo is 6-oxo and PCS not a good one?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I think even the product formulator (thesinner) would agree that any OTC Post Cycle Therapy, Post Cycle Support included, has its limitations. The degree to which it is going to assist you is variant on your degree of shutdown post-cycle, which is itself dependent on a few factors, the degree of aromatization post-cycle, and a myriad of other factors. While PCS may very well assist in preventing a gyno incident, and help to restore HPTA function, it is not a catch-all product, nor will it assist, IMO, in dire situations. This is not a knock on the product, but merely a pretty obvious observation. If you are caught off-guard, you may be in an irreversible situation as it pertains to HPTA and gyno, and that is a position you do not want to be in. If you will under no circumstances get a SERM, you should consider running AAS under no circumstances. Better safe, than sorry, as the saying goes.

 

[Eagleman003]

putting something in your mouth that is used to treat breast cancer is not something I would like to do. I have used a SERM before and have used an old school 6-oxo PCT and I can say that I felt better on the 6-oxo PCT. I kept more gains and was able to train harder post cycle. GYNO SHOULD NOT HAPPEN on this cycle and running 40mg of epistane is torwards the high end of the dosage and I will certainly get shutdown well, but 600mg and then 400mg of 6-oxo along with PCS at 5 caps and 4 caps should get me up and going within 2 weeks. I was contemplating adding an ATD into the mix but felt as though I didn't want a killed libido. Nolvadex did **** for my libido when i took it and 6-oxo has been proven to rasie test levels by over 200%. I also included retain2 to control cortisol and PCS has horny goat weed to aid in libido

 

[AnonyMoose]

I think even the product formulator (thesinner) would agree that any OTC Post Cycle Therapy, Post Cycle Support included, has its limitations. The degree to which it is going to assist you is variant on your degree of shutdown post-cycle, which is itself dependent on a few factors, the degree of aromatization post-cycle, and a myriad of other factors. While PCS may very well assist in preventing a gyno incident, and help to restore HPTA function, it is not a catch-all product, nor will it assist, IMO, in dire situations. This is not a knock on the product, but merely a pretty obvious observation. If you are caught off-guard, you may be in an irreversible situation as it pertains to HPTA and gyno, and that is a position you do not want to be in. If you will under no circumstances get a SERM, you should consider running anabolic steroids under no circumstances. Better safe, than sorry, as the saying goes.

i 2nd this!

also - don't confuse nov xt with nolva. actually its closer to 6oxo.

 

[nunes]

And take out the 6oxo. You don't want to completely kill estrogen. Tamoxifen or Toremifen will do fine.

I believe 6-oxo don't kill all the estrogen, if you see the lab tests the estrogen levels are in normal values even after some weeks of using it.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

putting something in your mouth that is used to treat breast cancer is not something I would like to do. I have used a SERM before and have used an old school 6-oxo post cycle therapy and I can say that I felt better on the 6-oxo PCT. I kept more gains and was able to train harder post cycle.

Technically, 6-oxo is the complete opposite of old school. Old school would be HGC, Nolva, and Clomid. That's it. No AI, and especially not an over the counter variant.

I respect your wish not to use pharmaceuticals, but it is undeniable it is more effective. There is no argument there.

GYNO SHOULD NOT HAPPEN on this cycle and running 40mg of epistane is torwards the high end of the dosage and I will certainly get shutdown well, but 600mg and then 400mg of 6-oxo along with PCS at 5 caps and 4 caps should get me up and going within 2 weeks. I was contemplating adding an ATD into the mix but felt as though I didn't want a killed libido. Nolvadex did **** for my libido when i took it and 6-oxo has been proven to rasie test levels by over 200%. I also included retain2 to control cortisol and PCS has horny goat weed to aid in libido

Should not and will not are different. Also no need to get heated, I'm just telling you facts. That is not a Post Cycle I would use, as it simply does not cover you entirely. However, if you want to and have used it in the past with success, go hard. It is your body, just offering my opinion.

 

[AnonyMoose]

Technically, 6-oxo is the complete opposite of old school. Old school would be HGC, Nolva, and Clomid. That's it. No AI, and especially not an over the counter variant.

I respect your wish not to use pharmaceuticals, but it is undeniable it is more effective. There is no argument there.



Should not and will not are different. Also no need to get heated, I'm just telling you facts. That is not a Post Cycle I would use, as it simply does not cover you entirely. However, if you want to and have used it in the past with success, go hard. It is your body, just offering my opinion.

mullet - my apologies - that wasn't directed to you but to the original poster about the ai products. and yes - technology aside - i meant to get across same function (even thought different methodology)

 

[Mulletsoldier]

mullet - my apologies - that wasn't directed to you but to the original poster about the ai products. and yes - technology aside - i meant to get across same function (even thought different methodology)

Oh, I know. I was talking to him.

 

[Eagleman003]

what is not being covered with my pct? What do you believe would have been a better OTC PCT method. i am raising test, controlling gyno and destroying excess estrogen

 

[Mulletsoldier]

what is not being covered with my post cycle therapy? What do you believe would have been a better OTC PCT method. i am raising test, controlling gyno and destroying excess estrogen

That's the point I am trying to make friend, SERM > OTC for the above mentioned characteristics.

 

[UNCfan1]

He wasn't asking advice on a serm. He wanted input on his OTC post cycle therapy. I understand u guys are looking out for him(I hope thats what ya'll were doing).

OP I don't much about 6-OXO.

Post Cycle Support- Could be legit could not be. Studies are lacking but users are responding well. Crowler is using it during his pulse.

I would use it combined with I3C(SERM) Dinoiii can feel u in on this. Don't be confused with DIM. I3C and Trans-Revs should channel in the good estrogen and channel out the bad. Sorry for not being scientific about it lol. Plus they should benefit ur liver and lipids. There are very few studies on Trans but its a SERM and there are a couple showing benefits on liver and lipids.

HDx2 would go good and use a test booster like MassFX. Retain2 is a great addition. Some say to start using the first day of PCT some say the 3 week mark.

PCS/I3C
HDx2
MassFX- Start 3 week mark. I got good advice on this.
Retain2- Start 3 week mark and taper down.
Creatine/BA plus Omega -3, vitamins and what not.
Nician
Cycle Support

There could be agruments on the pros and cons of this PCT laid out and use of SERM;s. Depends really on who u ask. Traditional SERM's are a plus to have on hand though.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

He wasn't asking advice on a serm. He wanted input on his OTC post cycle therapy. I understand u guys are looking out for him(I hope thats what ya'll were doing).

OP I don't much about 6-OXO.

Post Cycle Support- Could be legit could not be. Studies are lacking but users are responding well. Crowler is using it during his pulse.

I would use it combined with I3C(SERM) Dinoiii can feel u in on this. Don't be confused with DIM. I3C and Trans-Revs should channel in the good estrogen and channel out the bad. Sorry for not being scientific about it lol. Plus they should benefit ur liver and lipids. There are very few studies on Trans but its a SERM and there are a couple showing benefits on liver and lipids.

HDx2 would go good and use a test booster like MassFX. Retain2 is a great addition. Some say to start using the first day of post cycle therapy some say the 3 week mark.

PCS/I3C
HDx2
MassFX- Start 3 week mark. I got good advice on this.
Retain2- Start 3 week mark and taper down.
Creatine/BA plus Omega -3, vitamins and what not.
Nician
Cycle Support

There could be agruments on the pros and cons of this PCT laid out and use of SERM;s. Depends really on who u ask. Traditional SERM's are a plus to have on hand though.

Well, he asked for questions/comments on his Post Cycle plan and I offered mine. Sorry to the OP for not being more assisting, but that's merely my opinion.

 

[UNCfan1]

Well, he asked for questions/comments on his Post Cycle plan and I offered mine. Sorry to the OP for not being more assisting, but that's merely my opinion.

No ur answers were fine. He has a few of threads around so getting a SERM for him is out of the question I guess.

Dude I have read ur post, very informative so don't take what I posted the wrong way.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

No ur answers were fine. He has a few of threads around so getting a SERM for him is out of the question I guess.

Dude I have read ur post, very informative so don't take what I posted the wrong way.

Oh, haha, I wasn't. I'm just burnt out as hell right now. Got an extreme lack of humour going!

:yawn:

 

[Eagleman003]

i would think cortisol levels would be the highest during the 1st week so i should wait till week 3 your telling me? Also how is 6-oxo not enough to get me up and running again when combined with PCS. BTW, I have already purcahsed all of these products so this is basically the set cycle of what I am doing

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i would think cortisol levels would be the highest during the 1st week so i should wait till week 3 your telling me? Also how is 6-oxo not enough to get me up and running again when combined with PCS. BTW, I have already purcahsed all of these products so this is basically the set cycle of what I am doing

Then why further incite my opinion? If you can drudge up some primary research (beyond Ergopharm's initial data) showing how 6-OXO is superior than a SERM in the capacity you need it, then this debate is over. You won't, because it isn't. Now, that's not necessarily a 'bad' thing, perse, that is your personal choice. However, to assume 6-OXO equates to a SERM is somewhat foolish. I know you do not want to hear that, but it is.

 

[Eagleman003]

I have a little bit of nolvadex left over from my last cycle over teh summer. I have around 10ml which is roughyl 200mg. How should i go about spacing this out cause i know it will obvisouly help.

10mg EOD?

Also I am a little weary about using Nolvadex cause I feel that it caused me to lose some of my gains last post cycle cause of IGF-1 Surpression even now I know it was due to cortisol buildup and me not keeping calories high enough.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I have a little bit of nolvadex left over from my last cycle over teh summer. I have around 10ml which is roughyl 200mg. How should i go about spacing this out cause i know it will obvisouly help.

10mg EOD?

Also I am a little weary about using Nolvadex cause I feel that it caused me to lose some of my gains last post cycle cause of IGF-1 Surpression even now I know it was due to cortisol buildup and me not keeping calories high enough.

If you were really worried about its use, I do not see a problem in a light dose like that. I have seen speculation that 40mg is a dose which far, far exceeds our need.

 

[UNCfan1]

If you were really worried about its use, I do not see a problem in a light dose like that. I have seen speculation that 40mg is a dose which far, far exceeds our need.

I am begining to think that as well. 20mg seems to work just as good. I have never used just going by what I have read.

 

[nunes]

If you were really worried about its use, I do not see a problem in a light dose like that. I have seen speculation that 40mg is a dose which far, far exceeds our need.

I agree, maybe 10mgs nolva and 400-500 mgs of 6-oxo ED is a more than enough pct for this kind of cycle...

 

[saludable24]

No one has mentioned Dermacrine from PP to him yet? I thought it was the hot new supp. that could be adequate for Post Cycle Therapy because of it's SERM capabilities. I think there was someone using it exclusively for his PCT on here.

 

[drksun]

putting something in your mouth that is used to treat breast cancer is not something I would like to do. I have used a SERM before and have used an old school 6-oxo post cycle therapy and I can say that I felt better on the 6-oxo post cycle therapy. I kept more gains and was able to train harder post cycle. GYNO SHOULD NOT HAPPEN on this cycle and running 40mg of epistane is torwards the high end of the dosage and I will certainly get shutdown well, but 600mg and then 400mg of 6-oxo along with PCS at 5 caps and 4 caps should get me up and going within 2 weeks. I was contemplating adding an ATD into the mix but felt as though I didn't want a killed libido. Nolvadex did **** for my libido when i took it and 6-oxo has been proven to rasie test levels by over 200%. I also included retain2 to control cortisol and PCS has horny goat weed to aid in libido

Did you know that AI's such as formastane are used as a second line of defense when SERMs fail in the treatment of breast cancer.. AIs eliminate estrogen, you want to control its effects, not eliminate it.

 

[dinoiii]

I would use it combined with I3C(SERM) Dinoiii can feel u in on this.

I'd rather not "feel" anyone on male-dominated forums to tell you the truth.

There are very few studies on Trans but its a SERM and there are a couple showing benefits on liver and lipids.

The positive effect on lipids comes in the form of PRO-estrogenic effects. The same is offered for SERMs. Still, SERMs (clomid - outside of the general class but still a SERM acting agent is the ONE exception to the rule) have little effect on the HPTA when comared in studies. The remaining response of SERMs has potentially been attributed to chance ("statistical significance" means NOTHING in the research world outside of offering an ability to compare different studies).

Some say to start using the first day of post cycle therapy some say the 3 week mark.

Cortisol blocking agents should be used at the start of week 3 alone. This is due to crossover feedback from the adrenal gland in a non-dscriminative pattern almost independent of the agent used on cycle.

Although the area (known as a "zona" in the adrenal gland) responsible for cortisol secretion is not directly an issue, the fact that zona reticularis makes androgens IS A HUGE PART TOO MANY FORGET WHEN TRYING TO SELL A SUPPLEMENT.

Cycle Support

I can only agree with the RYR-free version.

There could be agruments on the pros and cons of this post cycle therapy laid out and use of SERM;s. Depends really on who u ask. Traditional SERM's are a plus to have on hand though.

Maybe, but the limited research we do have doesn't unanimously support their use despite what is being purported. And they certainly don't have profound effects on the HPTA (again - as above...Clomid is a notable exception to this rule).


D_

 

[Eagleman003]

So ill take retain and move it to week the end of the second week and everything is pretty much good. I guess ill use nolvadex EOD at 10mg for the first week along with my normal PCT plan that i outlined above.

 

[methodice]

Cortisol blocking agents should be used at the start of week 3 alone. This is due to crossover feedback from the adrenal gland in a non-dscriminative pattern almost independent of the agent used on cycle.

Although the area (known as a "zona" in the adrenal gland) responsible for cortisol secretion is not directly an issue, the fact that zona reticularis makes androgens IS A HUGE PART TOO MANY FORGET WHEN TRYING TO SELL A SUPPLEMENT.


D_

Do cortisol blocking agents block production of androgens in the zona? I've read this recently, can anyone give more explanation on this in regards to dino's comment.

"7 keto DHEA and 7OH DHEA interconvert to each other using 11b Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase enzyme, which is what converts Cortisone (relatively inactive) to Cortisol (highly active).

Since the enzyme is busy flipping the two forms of DHEA back and forth, it is unable to increase cortisol levels, thus lowering cortisol."

 

[methodice]

bump for dino, zona?