DMAA Alternative

[Kelt]

Do they still allow you to smoke cigarettes there? hmmmm

Of course and drinking alcohol until we are piss drunk! Tobacco and alcohol products have insane taxation and therefore bring a lot of cash to the state treasury. But it is of no surprise, I think everybody knows that money rules.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

You are lucky. Unfortunately in Sweden it has been classified as hazardous/harmful substance and therefor forbidden to sell, import or possess. The penalty for breaking the law can give up to one year in prison.mfg:

that is so ghey

 

[Patrick Arnold]

the latest news on DMAA .
DMAA: Only found in select geranium, says new USPLabs-funded study.
Controversial ingredient DMAA has been detected in geranium from select regions of China, but not all, according to a new study from the University of Memphis and funded by USPLabs.

The study, published in Analytical Chemistry Insights , claims to explain why DMAA has been reportedly found in certain samples from China, and not in geranium samples from other regions such as India, Mississippi, France, Egypt and New Zealand.

“Until now, none of the samples analyzed have been identical or reported as from the same region,” wrote the researchers, led by Paul Simone.

“Thus, regional environmental variations could explain the presence of 1,3-DMAA in the Changzhou S11, Changzhou March 2012, and Changzhou May 2012 samples and the absence of 1,3-DMAA concentrations in Kunming and Guiyang geranium samples reported here, [and samples reported elsewhere].”

USPLabs funded a study by Intertek AAC Labs published in August that also reported the detection of DMAA has been detected in Chinese geranium. That study was also published in Analytical Chemistry Insights .

New analysis

According to the paper, the discrepancies in the literature may be due to regional and environmental considerations, argue the Memphis-based researchers.

Simone and his co-workers combined an extraction method with high performance liquid chromatography and tandem mass spectrometry to determine 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-dimethylamylamine (1,4-DMAA) in geranium plant samples from the Changzhou, Kunming, and Guiyang regions of China during both winter and summer.

The researchers reported that 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-DMAA was present in concentrations in the Changzhou geranium plants of China above the reported method detection limit (MDLs).

“The reported concentrations of 1,3-DMAA ranged from 68 to 496 ng/g and 1,4-DMAA ranged from 13 to 162 ng/g,” they said. “Similarly, 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-DMAA were not detected above the MDL in samples from Guiyang and Kunming regions.

“To the best of the authors’ knowledge, this is the first reported inter-laboratory analysis confirming the presence of 1,3-DMAA in a geranium plant (specifically Changzhou S11 sample).”

Multiple labs

Commenting on the discrepancies with results from other leading laboratories, the researchers suggests that a possible solution would be a “multiple laboratory and blind analysis of identical samples expected to have 1,3-DMAA (such as Changzhou region samples) as well as samples that are not expected to contain 1,3-DMAA.

“Using this approach, a satisfactory answer for the national regulatory agencies as well as the commercial interests could be provided.”

all this throws a wrench in the main argument that some authorities have presented as the biggest reason DMAA should not be classified as a nutritional supplement

there are other arguments as well, but they are secondary to this one

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Of course and drinking alcohol until we are piss drunk! Tobacco and alcohol products have insane taxation and therefore bring a lot of cash to the state treasury. But it is of no surprise, I think everybody knows that money rules.

In Sweden u can be apprehended by police if they suspect you are using anabolic steroids. suspicion can be simply having extraordinary muscle mass. this happened to IFBB bodybuilders that were visiting sweden recently.
At least one (Tony Freeman) was arrested and forced to submit urine if i recall

 

[Kelt]

In Sweden u can be apprehended by police if they suspect you are using anabolic steroids. suspicion can be simply having extraordinary muscle mass. this happened to IFBB bodybuilders that were visiting sweden recently.
At least one (Tony Freeman) was arrested and forced to submit urine if i recall

That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes. To me it was explained that this is because the police should not hesitate to act if they suspect something. Sweden is in some ways really weird place. However, the nature is nice, so are the girls, therefore do not be afraid to visit.:wink1: Prison cells in Sweden are very similar to hotel rooms, so do not worry if you end up in jail.:fing02:

 

[truthornothin]

That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes. To me it was explained that this is because the police should not hesitate to act if they suspect something. Sweden is in some ways really weird place. However, the nature is nice, so are the girls, therefore do not be afraid to visit.:wink1: Prison cells in Sweden are very similar to hotel rooms, so do not worry if you end up in jail.:fing02:

Wow, you should be on Sweden's board of tourism lol "Come to Sweden where the girls are nice and the prison cells are comparable a 4 star hotel in luxury and accomodation.

 

[Kelt]

Wow, you should be on Sweden's board of tourism lol "Come to Sweden where the girls are nice and the prison cells are comparable a 4 star hotel in luxury and accomodation.

Hehehe, that would be something. But no, I am happy with what I am doing. You can google it up how “luxury” Swedish prisons are.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes.

there is a word for that in the US. Its called profiling

 

[Sean1332]

and strongly violates our 4th amendment

 

[Kelt]

there is a word for that in the US. Its called profiling

Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word profiling as I meant it. Profiling in the context I am talking about means selectively pursuing a suspect based on characteristics such as race or religion or style of clothes they wear etc. Examples would be preferentially pulling a muslim aside at an airport for secondary screening or pulling a hispanic guy in a car over and asking for his identification because you suspect he may be illegal.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?

ERalpha I believe is the predominant subtype in the hypothalamus. Therefore, a binder should suppress the HPTA

 

[Kelt]

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word profiling as I meant it. Profiling in the context I am talking about means selectively pursuing a suspect based on characteristics such as race or religion or style of clothes they wear etc. Examples would be preferentially pulling a muslim aside at an airport for secondary screening or pulling a hispanic guy in a car over and asking for his identification because you suspect he may be illegal.

Ok, I understand now. Well here in Sweden our leaders like to “educate” us normal mortals in various “negative” activities (do not know how exactly call it). Therefore, it is very common practice to do something calls zero tolerance weeks. One week they pick for example driving under influence of alcohol. This means that the whole week, children in schools are “educated” how dangerous it is. Meanwhile police in the same week do extra alcohol controls on the roads. I have seen zero tolerance weeks on violence, racism, narcotics and also doping. Every time there is such a campaign the police are reinforcing it with targeted activities.

Sweden is on other hand too much of humanistic, meaning, for example the convicts have quit a lot of rights. Therefore I am not surprised to read in newspaper that convicted pedophiles ware sending each other pictures of children over the mobile phones, since in Sweden, they are allowed to keep them.

I do not want to make this thread to much of a political debate. So to make some sort of a conclusion the two biggest negative thinks (as I see them) are: 1 the state is trying to over protect its citizens and 2 on another hand they try to preserve the humanistic rights for everybody. And this in the end creates such weird situations.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Ok, I understand now. Well here in Sweden our leaders like to “educate” us normal mortals in various “negative” activities (do not know how exactly call it). Therefore, it is very common practice to do something calls zero tolerance weeks. One week they pick for example driving under influence of alcohol. This means that the whole week, children in schools are “educated” how dangerous it is. Meanwhile police in the same week do extra alcohol controls on the roads. I have seen zero tolerance weeks on violence, racism, narcotics and also doping. Every time there is such a campaign the police are reinforcing it with targeted activities.

Sweden is on other hand too much of humanistic, meaning, for example the convicts have quit a lot of rights. Therefore I am not surprised to read in newspaper that convicted pedophiles ware sending each other pictures of children over the mobile phones, since in Sweden, they are allowed to keep them.

I do not want to make this thread to much of a political debate. So to make some sort of a conclusion the two biggest negative thinks (as I see them) are: 1 the state is trying to over protect its citizens and 2 on another hand they try to preserve the humanistic rights for everybody. And this in the end creates such weird situations.

Yikes is all i gotta say

 

[Kelt]

Yikes is all i gotta say

Yes, it is a mess. However, there are also many good things, but like I said, we should not make this tread into a political debating. These thinks are better to talk about person to person in a pub then on an internet forum.

 

[lronFist]

what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?

Binding to the receptor does not imply activation. It could be an inverse agonist, antagonist, or bind with such low affinity as to afford physiological insignificance.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Binding to the receptor does not imply activation. It could be an inverse agonist, antagonist, or bind with such low affinity as to afford physiological insignificance.

good point

 

[Kelt]

So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?

I suppose, unless there are other aspects of the compound that interfere with the HPTA

 

[Kelt]

I suppose, unless there are other aspects of the compound that interfere with the HPTA

Ok, interesting. However, purely theoretically, it could give problems in case the over/under stimulation would deviate outside the usual limits?

A small clarification about the incident with convicted pedophiles. I meant that they could keep the mobile phones during serving their sentence. Not that they were able to keep the pictures of which they have been convicted for, as one could understand from my previously written text. Sweden have its weird moments, but not that severely creepy.aranoid:

 

[pushinweightw]

The difference between a four star prison and a four star hotel is I can leave the latter at will the former not so much. I think I will not be visiting.

 

[Kelt]

The difference between a four star prison and a four star hotel is I can leave the latter at will the former not so much. I think I will not be visiting.

The difference can also be seen as, full accommodation in four star prison is paid for you with taxation money (free education included), while accommodation in four star hotel cost you $$$.:shysmile: Although, do not exactly know how it works with people from outside of Sweden. Most probable is the deportation, unless you claim you will be killed if deported.:dunno:

 

[lronFist]

So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?

Higenamine has absolutely no access to the CNS (if it did, it would be quite neurotoxic) so it is a moot point.

 

[Kelt]

Higenamine has absolutely no access to the CNS (if it did, it would be quite neurotoxic) so it is a moot point.

Yes, I found a rat study that higenamine is mostly metabolized through Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) to coclaurine and isococlaurine. As I understand it also humans have COMT mechanism so it could be argued that even we do produce such metabolites? I also did prediction on coclaurine which show somewhat higher probability then higenamine that it is a week ERalpha binder. Prediction shows a good chance of coclaurine to cross BBB.

EDIT: Predictions are done in ACD/I-lab.

 

[lronFist]

Yes, I found a rat study that higenamine is mostly metabolized through Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) to coclaurine and isococlaurine. As I understand it also humans have COMT mechanism so it could be argued that even we do produce such metabolites? I also did prediction on coclaurine which show somewhat higher probability then higenamine that it is a week ERalpha binder. Prediction shows a good chance of coclaurine to cross BBB.

EDIT: Predictions are done in ACD/I-lab.

Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

(1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf

 

[mr.cooper69]

Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

(1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf

Great find!

Note: a www. addition is mandatory for that link to open. Reading now.

So it appears it might not only be anti-stimulatory but also ergolytic during exercise...

 

[lronFist]

Great find!

Note: a addition is mandatory for that link to open. Reading now.

My post count needs to be 150 before I can post links.

 

[Kelt]

Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

(1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf

Yes, that article I have seen. Some comments on the ACD/I-Lab predictions for crossing BBB are unfortunately only on rodent model.

 

[Kelt]

My post count needs to be 150 before I can post links.

I have the same problem, and find it annoying.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

DMAA is irreplaceable!!

 

[Kelt]

Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

(1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf

So I reread the pointed out article. Now, biochemistry is only my hobby so I am sorry if my following speculation is totally wrong.

The test in that article has been conducted on the heart muscle and I presume you ware referring to the results in influence of calcium ion channels by higenamine and coclaurine? I have reread numerous times the chapter 5 (pp. 65-77) in book called Voltage-Gated Ion Channels as Drug Targets (ISBN 3-527-31258-7) and also found well summarized info on wiki about different types of calcium channels. It appears that L-type channels are mostly concentrated in cardiac muscle (the tissue used in the article), while in brain there are mostly P-type, Q-type and N-type of channels. Is it therefore correct to judge the possible CNS activities of Higenamine and Coclaurine in the brain, based on the test performed on L-type of channels?

 

[lronFist]

So I reread the pointed out article. Now, biochemistry is only my hobby so I am sorry if my following speculation is totally wrong.

The test in that article has been conducted on the heart muscle and I presume you ware referring to the results in influence of calcium ion channels by higenamine and coclaurine? I have reread numerous times the chapter 5 (pp. 65-77) in book called Voltage-Gated Ion Channels as Drug Targets (ISBN 3-527-31258-7) and also found well summarized info on wiki about different types of calcium channels. It appears that L-type channels are mostly concentrated in cardiac muscle (the tissue used in the article), while in brain there are mostly P-type, Q-type and N-type of channels. Is it therefore correct to judge the possible CNS activities of Higenamine and Coclaurine in the brain, based on the test performed on L-type of channels?

In cardiac tissue, activating the beta-1 receptor increases cAMP which enhances calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum via PKA. This is why higenamine is an inotrope. The study cited above notes that the 6-OH on the tetrahydroisoquinoline is a necessary constituent for beta receptor activation. COMT removes this constituent by way of creating a methoxy group (i.e. creating coclaurine).

cvpharmacology. com/cardiostimulatory/beta-receptors-Gs.gif <---(This image may help).

As I have already mentioned, neither higenamine nor colclaurine have access to the CNS, and probably do not interact directly with calcium channels.

 

[Kelt]

In cardiac tissue, activating the beta-1 receptor increases cAMP which enhances calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum via PKA. This is why higenamine is an inotrope. The study cited above notes that the 6-OH on the tetrahydroisoquinoline is a necessary constituent for beta receptor activation. COMT removes this constituent by way of creating a methoxy group (i.e. creating coclaurine).

cvpharmacology. com/cardiostimulatory/beta-receptors-Gs.gif <---(This image may help).

As I have already mentioned, neither higenamine nor colclaurine have access to the CNS, and probably do not interact directly with calcium channels.

Oh, I see, this is how it goes when I read something outside of my area after midnight.uch:

However, I cannot stop wondering that the prediction in ACD/I-Lab can be so wrong. They use predictions of LogPS (rate of brain penetration), LogPB/LogBB (extent of brain penetration) and Log(PS*fu, brain) (Brain/plasma equilibration rate) as a measure of “brain penetration sufficient for CNS activity”. There are numerous nicely writer articles about efforts on estimating accurate predictions of new compounds’ properties.

Did you have a look at this tool?
ilab.acdlabs.com/iLab2 (I use your trick )

 

[pushinweightw]

PA what led you to look for DMAA in the first place? Was it a quest to find an ephedrine alternative? Do you have an interest in finding an alternative to DMAA? If no what would it take to generate an interest in such?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Kelt]

PA what led you to look for DMAA in the first place? Was it a quest to find an ephedrine alternative? Do you have an interest in finding an alternative to DMAA? If no what would it take to generate an interest in such?

Thank you for your time.

+1
These are really good questions.

 

[HITFrank]

In Sweden u can be apprehended by police if they suspect you are using anabolic steroids. suspicion can be simply having extraordinary muscle mass. this happened to IFBB bodybuilders that were visiting sweden recently.
At least one (Tony Freeman) was arrested and forced to submit urine if i recall

The X-man had been to Holland a couple of days before going to Sweden. In Holland he smoked a joint, which explains the narcotics. He also had prescriptions for his aas, which cleared him from the drug use. I think he lost a contract with a supplement company because of his arrest.

Norway is more strict than Sweden, but one is allowed to use aas.

 

[HITFrank]

DMAA is irreplaceable!!

Before a workout with ......?
As a fatburner?

 

[truthornothin]

Before a workout with ......?
As a fatburner?

both, Clear Shot, its all you need

 

[Ceredumbellum]

PA what led you to look for DMAA in the first place? Was it a quest to find an ephedrine alternative? Do you have an interest in finding an alternative to DMAA? If no what would it take to generate an interest in such?

Thank you for your time.

+1
I've got an add-odd question for PA: How long did it take you to finally settle on DMAA and how many different substances did you research before deciding DMAA was the way to go?

 

[Kelt]

Norway is more strict than Sweden, but one is allowed to use aas.

Interesting, is it not that essential amino acids in the free form are considered as pharmaceutics in Norway?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

PA what led you to look for DMAA in the first place? Was it a quest to find an ephedrine alternative? Do you have an interest in finding an alternative to DMAA? If no what would it take to generate an interest in such?

Thank you for your time.

it was to find a replacement for ephedrine yes

and i was researching a different area when i came across a reference that mentioned dmaa. since i had never heard of it and was curious i did a literature search on the chemical and found articles that suggested it might be a decent cns stimulant

i have tried to find an alternative to dmaa. i have come across candidates, but none of them have evidence of being natural. thats the problem

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Before a workout with ......?
As a fatburner?

nothing makes you feel like dmaa makes you feel. thats what i mean

 

[Patrick Arnold]

+1
I've got an add-odd question for PA: How long did it take you to finally settle on DMAA and how many different substances did you research before deciding DMAA was the way to go?

i had tried a few out such as halostachine and found they sucked. i also tried NMT back then. when we tried dmaa we knew immediately it was great

 

[HITFrank]

Interesting, is it not that essential amino acids in the free form are considered as pharmaceutics in Norway?

They used to, you can buy junk L-Glutamine now. When it comes to supplements Sweden is still more liberal..

 

[SpicedCider]

nothing makes you feel like dmaa makes you feel. thats what i mean

Pat, how safe do you think it is to take DMAA and ephedrine together but without any caffeine? I would like to get the bronchodilation effects of ephedrine and the "feeling" of DMAA...

 

[Kelt]

i had tried a few out such as halostachine and found they sucked. i also tried NMT back then. when we tried dmaa we knew immediately it was great

I presume that what is special with DMAA is that the molecule is methylated on the alpha position protecting the amine from MAO? Also due to only a partial phenyl ring structure it cannot be considered as amphetamine analog?

The pity with most PEA analogs (including halostachine) is the lack of the amine protection, due to the “nakedness” on alpha position.

 

[Kelt]

i had tried a few out such as halostachine and found they sucked. i also tried NMT back then. when we tried dmaa we knew immediately it was great

On a side note, as I see that you also experimented with NMT which is a tryptamine with poor oral bioavailability (according Shulgin, #50 in Tihkal).

Now I do not exactly know the laws around tryptamines, but did you researched the possibility of finding a legal and natural tryptamine with good oral bioavailability and use it as a stimulant? Do you know about Dr. James Fadiman’s work on micro dosing psychedelics? It seems that a micro dose have a good stimulant with anti-depressive properties. Now, I understand that you cannot use what Fadiman experimented with, but I suppose, that there may be a similar compound in structure and properties as of those that are already scheduled?

EDIT: Hmmm, I probably was too quick with assuming that NMT is N-Methyltryptamine, while you probably meant N-Methyltyramine? However, the question still stands, since tickling the serotonergic receptors seems to produce very noticeable stimulatory effects.

 

[lronFist]

On a side note, as I see that you also experimented with NMT which is a tryptamine with poor oral bioavailability (according Shulgin, #50 in Tihkal).

Now I do not exactly know the laws around tryptamines, but did you researched the possibility of finding a legal and natural tryptamine with good oral bioavailability and use it as a stimulant? Do you know about Dr. James Fadiman’s work on micro dosing psychedelics? It seems that a micro dose have a good stimulant with anti-depressive properties. Now, I understand that you cannot use what Fadiman experimented with, but I suppose, that there may be a similar compound in structure and properties as of those that are already scheduled?

EDIT: Hmmm, I probably was too quick with assuming that NMT is N-Methyltryptamine, while you probably meant N-Methyltyramine? However, the question still stands, since tickling the serotonergic receptors seems to produce very noticeable stimulatory effects.

What serotonergic drugs do you find stimulating?

 

[Jag]

Sheeezus, well, most of that is waaay over my head. But what i do know is, when using DMAA and a strong coffee i can sit and read and really focus and take in what i'm reading OR i can go to the gym and do a 1 1/2 hour super-intense leg and ab workout!!!

Not many other stimulants can give me those options.

 

[Kelt]

What serotonergic drugs do you find stimulating?

Well Dr. Fadiman was experimenting with LSD in 25mcg doses, or rather he asked volunteers to report their experience with such a small doses. This due to the fact that LSD was already scheduled. The same effect has been reported from users of psilocybe mushrooms, where the definition of micro dose is a fifth of the normal dose. Both LSD and Psilocin/Psilocybin are agonists of 5-HT_2A, 5-HT_2C and 5-HT_1A serotonergic receptors. If you spend some time searching the net there is plenty of anecdotal reports from people who tried it and it worked for them. There are unfortunately no legit published papers about this is due to the halting of all research with psychedelic compounds in 60ies. However I am convinced that if there is an unscheduled natural and active compound stimulating these three types of serotonergic receptors, it will produce a quite notable stimulant like (full off energy, focused, well productive) effect at very small doses.

EDIT: Double checked on the dose Fadiman used for the study, it was 10mcg not 25mcg.