Is there a difference between the 2, besides one coming from corn and the other from sugarcane?
Moderate to high gi carbs are best at replenishing glycogen post workout. As far as dextrose leading to fat gain, well you'll have to consume a lot AND BE LAZY for that to happen. Staying away from dextrose is nothing to be afraid of. Muscle cells are high receptive post workout and the high gi carb is the way to go. Numerous studies back dextrose and whey combinations. An energy crash postworkout after consuming a high gi/whey drink can be easily avoided by consuming a high protein meal with low gi carbs 30-45 minutes after. As far as oatmeal replenishing glycogen better than dextrose, whatever.Dextrose is nearly pure glucose. It will SPIKE your insulin through the roof leading to fat gain. Table sugar is less sweet and not as high on the GI scale although it is still very high. You should ONLY have these carbs Post workout and even that might be pushing it. I stay away from them because they are not needed in order to fill glycogen stores post workout. All they will do is increase insulin levels past what they need to be which leads to an eventual crash in energy and fat storage.
Oatmeal FTW?
dextrose is synthesized almost exclusively from corn.Like said above, dextrose is just glucose. Table sugar (sucrose) is glucose bonded to fructose IIRC. Neither is derived from corn AFAIK,
I have used powderd sugar before but i felt nothing but a bloated gut in all honesty.Dextrose is from corn. The only time I consume it is Post w/o. I just wanted to know if sugar was an option instead of dextrose.
Common table sugar will notIt was the opposite with me. The WMS bloated me and I felt nothing as far as recovered after my w/o. Went to dextrose and bang...felt great after with no bloat. I just wanted to see if common table sugar was going to provide the same results and if anyone had info on it.
30-50 is perfect. In growth phases i might go up to 60 but only on leg days. Anything over this is a waste of money.I am going to start doing the WMS thing on Monday. I don't want to overload it though so I think I am going to stay around 30-50g of WMS post WO. I hear a lot of people say that 75-100 is not necessary unless you have just ran a marathon. Anyone have any other opinions?
I stand corrected, I was unnaware of this.dextrose is synthesized almost exclusively from corn.
This makes no sense at all. That professor is ignoring countless scientific data on dextrose. The uptake in the muscles occur after the high gi carb/protein drink is consumed. As far as Waxy Maize starch being faster than dextrose, please. I seriously doubt the gi of wms is higher than that of dextrose.My college professor told me that dextrose doesnt uplaod into the blood stream fast enough for it to be actually utilized the way we believe it is be utilized. The insulin spike occurs in the stomach, and not in the actual muscles you used during your workout for recovery. Waxy Maize starch uploads fast enough to be utilized by the muscles. Iwoudl recommend staying away from dextrose, and using waxy for the insulin spike pre or post wkout.
Congrats on finding an article and posting it. It states nothing about the difference in insulin spikes between a medium GI carb and a refined high GI carb PWO and what that difference means in terms of glycogen uptake into muscle cells.Carbohydrate Timing: Enhance Muscle Growth, Fat Loss and Workout Performance
by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
AST Director of Research
Muscle glycogen is the athlete’s storage form of carbohydrate and the primary fuel that powers intense exercise.[1] A number of studies have demonstrated that intense resistance training can significantly decrease muscle glycogen stores, much more severely than previously suspected. [4-7] If you restrict your carbohydrate intake (as most bodybuilders do), you run a real risk of training constantly on carb-depleted muscles.
Weight training with low muscle glycogen levels means weak muscles [8] decreased force production, [9] and significantly reduced strength. [10] Muscle glycogen stores govern weight lifting performance, and the ability to train intensely day-in, day-out. [4-10] Glycogen-full muscles means greater work capacity and greater intensity and this adds up to a more powerful growth stimulus.
Bodybuilders need carbohydrates to train intensely, build muscle and get shredded. However, to obtain optimal muscle glycogen stores, a high carbohydrate diet is not required nor recommended. The answer is carbohydrate timing. The intake of the right carbohydrates at just the right time results in more effective muscle glycogen accumulation, better recovery and a more potent muscle growth stimulus.
CARBOHYDRATE TIMING: WHAT IS IT? WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES?
A lot of bodybuilders do not understand that the strategic consumption of carbohydrates just before and after intense training not only determines the success of today’s workout, but also the glycogen levels that fuel tomorrow’s workout. That’s right, restoring muscle glycogen for tomorrow’s workout starts as before you hit the gym today
The total amount of glycogen synthesized in muscle over a 24-hour period is directly correlated to the timing of carbohydrate ingestion after a workout.[2,3] If carbohydrates are not consumed in the workout period, zero muscle glycogen synthesis [11] and an empty fuel tank for tomorrow’s workout is the result. Where as a few strategic servings of an easily absorbed carbohydrate consumed close to training will guarantee a high glycogen synthesis rate [12,13] and glycogen-filled muscles to power cellular growth.
Don’t underestimate the importance of carb timing for triggering glycogen synthesis after a workout. Not only is a bodybuilders total work capacity correlated directly to the amount of glucose/glycogen held within muscle, the process of glycogen accumulation triggers an immediate “cell volumizing” effect, a potent anabolic response. The right carbohydrate timing strategy will amplify the anabolic stimulus of resistance training.[1,3,20]
The research on carbohydrate intake and weight lifting shows that the consumption of a carbohydrate supplement just before (or during) an intense workout can save valuable muscle glycogen stores from complete depletion, as well as enhance total lifting capacity during the workout. [15,16] While training without using a carb supplement before weight training results in muscle carb depletion, and poor weight training performance [14], supplementing just before or during training, results in only a 13.7% decrease in muscle glycogen content and more weight lifted, for more reps in every working set [16-18]
A carbohydrate supplement consumed immediately before or after weight training is shown to directly affect the hormonal response. Taken before training, a carb supplement will maintain blood sugar levels, and restore insulin levels. The presence of insulin is vital for stimulating muscle protein synthesis rates. [19] A carb supplement taken immediately after training increases insulin concentration while decreasing 3-methylhistidine and urea nitrogen excretion (all examples of reduced muscle breakdown).[20]
Consuming a carbohydrate supplement after resistance training also enhances the growth hormone response and reduces circulating cortisol concentrations.[21,22] Cortisol is the number one glucocorticoids hormone that is responsible for muscle breakdown. Carb timing stops cortisol elevation dead in its tracks.
The benefits are as clear as night and day, and the strategy is remarkably simple. Be sure to consume a dose of carbohydrates just before and immediately after your Max-OT training session, it will enhance work capacity and the hormonal anabolic response from weight training.
DON’T FORGET CREATINE AND GLUTAMINE
Carbohydrate synthesis is a cellular anabolic activator within muscle. Recent research has shown that the supplements creatine and glutamine both act synergistically with glucose to maximize glycogen accumulation in muscle. [23, 24] When taken straight after training, a 7-10gram dose of glutamine combined with carbohydrates, results is better glycogen accumulation throughout the entire body than either supplement taken alone.
Creatine-filled muscles store more carbohydrates that results in greater work capacity. So to obtain an optimal glycogen restoration after every workout, be sure to incorporate a 5-gram serving of micronized creatine in your pre and post workout shake, and a 5-15-gram serving of GL-3 glutamine in your post workout shake.
WHAT KIND OF CARBS ARE BEST?
Bowtell and colleagues have shown that glucose is the better choice of carbohydrate to consume around the training session. [26] Pure glucose does not require digestion and it promotes more rapid restoration of muscle glycogen levels than other carbohydrates. When taken immediately after weight training, a dose of glucose (1-gram/kg body weight) was highly effective in preventing muscle breakdown and providing a more positive protein balance in a group of bodybuilders. [20] This strategic dose of glucose also helped to increase the glycogen content of the bodybuilder’s muscles to levels higher than seen before training.
HOW MUCH?
Most of the research that has demonstrated positive effects from carb intake during weight training has used a dose of around 1-gram per kilogram of body weight within the immediate training period. Some research has followed this dose with another 1-hour after training and this completely restored muscle glycogen levels.[20]
Therefore, a 200-pound bodybuilder (approx 94kgs) should probably aim to consume a 45-gram dose of glucose before and after bodybuilding workouts, and, possibly, another dose an hour later. A scoop of Creatine HSC provides 5-grams of micronized creatine and 34-grams of carbs and is an excellent pre and post workout supplement. However, some athletes may need to increase the carb portion of this serving to be sure of optimal glycogen restoration for their next workout. In fact, the effect of carbohydrate (glucose) consumption within the training period seems to exert such potent anabolic effects, I strongly suspect that most lean bodybuilders would obtain greater results from their training if they increased there carbohydrate intake during this period. Remember, the carbs you consume during the workout period exert a direct anabolic effect, they go directly towards muscle recovery and growth. [27] This is where supplementing the diet with a product like DGC can be so invaluable.
DCG is an incredibly simple, yet effective supplement bodybuilders can use to strategically increase there carbohydrate intake. One teaspoon provides 5-grams of pure glucose, no digestion is required and rapid absorption is assured. This makes DGC perfect for increasing carbohydrate intake at the precise times an athlete needs it. Bodybuilders can add DGC to their pre and post workout shakes to ensure they obtain the right amount of carbs that ensures muscle glycogen stores are replenished.
Another simple supplement timing strategy that bodybuilders can employ that will send muscle protein synthesis rates through the roof is the timing of particular amino acids and glucose in the pre and post workout period.
If an abundant supply of essential amino acids and glucose is in circulation during intense training, the anabolic response from weight training more than triples [25] Imagine, triple the results every time you wrap your hands around a barbell. I believe this “timing phenomenon”, that is, making sure key nutrients are circulating to muscles during training, is the single most effective strategy a drug-free athlete can utilize to pack on lean muscle mass fast. Read about this incredible muscle building technique in The Bracketing Method.
References:
1. John L. Ivy, Harold W. Goforth Jr., Bruce M. Damon, Thomas R. McCauley, Edward C. Parsons, and Thomas B. Price. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J. Appl. Physiol. 93 4, 1337-1344, 2002.
2. Bergström, J, Hermansen L, Hultman E, and Saltin B. Diet, muscle glycogen and physical performance. Acta Physiol Scand 71: 140-150, 1967
3. Haff, G.G., M.J. Lehmkuhl, L.B. McCoy, and M.H. Stone. Carbohydrate supplementation and resistance training. J of Strength and Conditioning Research. 17;1:187–196, 2003.
4. MacDougall, J.D., S. Ray, D.G. Sale, N. McCartney, P. Lee, and S. Garner. Muscle substrate utilization and lactate production during weightlifting. Can. J. Appl. Physiol. 24:209–215. 1999.
5. Robergs, R.A., D.R. Pearson, D.L. Costill, W.J. Fink, D.D. Pascoe, M.A. Benedict, C.P. Lambert, and J.J. Zachweija. Muscle glycogenolysis during differing intensities of weight-resistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 70:1700–1706. 1991.
6. Tesch, P.A., E.B. Colliander, and P. Kaiser. Muscle metabolism during intense, heavy-resistance exercise. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 55:362–366. 1986.
7. Tesch, P.A., L.L. Ploutz-Snyder, L. Yström, M. Castro, and G. Dudley. Skeletal muscle glycogen loss evoked by resistance exercise. J. Strength Cond. Res. 12:67–73. 1998.
8. Yaspelkis, B.B.D., J.G. Patterson, P.A. Anderla, Z. Ding, and J.L. Ivy. Carbohydrate supplementation spares muscle glycogen during variable-intensity exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 75:1477–1485. 1993.
9. Jacobs, I., P. Kaiser, and P. Tesch. Muscle strength and fatigue after selective glycogen depletion in human skeletal muscle fibers. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 46:47–53. 1981.
10. Hepburn, D., and R.J. Maughan. Glycogen availability as a limiting factor in performance of isometric exercise. J. Physiol. 342:52–53P. 1982.
11. Costill, D.L., W.M. Sherman, W.J. Fink, C. Maresh, M. Witten, and J.M. Miller. The role of dietary carbohydrates in muscle glycogen resynthesis after strenuous running. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 34:1831–1836. 1981.
12. Ivy, J.L., A.L. Katz, C.L. Cutler, W.M. Sherman, and E.F. Coyle. Muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise: Effect of time of carbohydrate ingestion. J. Appl. Physiol. 64:1480–1485. 1988.
13. Ivy, J.L., M.C. Lee, J.T. Brozinick, and M.J. Reed. Muscle glycogen storage after different amounts of carbohydrate ingestion. J. Appl. Physiol. 65:2018–2023. 1988.
14. Leveritt, M., and P.J. Abernethy. Effects of carbohydrate restriction on strength performance. J. Strength Cond. Res. 13:52–57. 1999.
15. Hakkinen, K., A. Pakarinen, M. Alen, H. Kauhanen, and P.V. Komi. Daily hormonal and neuromuscular responses to intensive strength training in 1 week. Int. J. Sports Med. 9:422–428. 1988.
16. Lambert, C.P., M.G. Flynn, J.B. Boone, T.J. Michaud, and J. Rodriguez-Zayas. Effects of carbohydrate feeding on multiple-bout resistance exercise. J. Appl. Sport Sci. Res. 5:192–197. 1991.
17. Haff, G.G., C.A. Schroeder, A.J. Koch, K.E. Kuphal, M.J. Comeau, and J.A. Potteiger. The effects of supplemental carbohydrate ingestion on intermittent isokinetic leg exercise. J. Sports Med. Phys. Fitness. 41:216–222. 2001.
18. Haff, G.G., M.H. Stone, B.J. Warren, R. Keith, R.L. Johnson, D.C. Nieman, F. Williams, and K.B. Kirksey. The effect of carbohydrate supplementation on multiple sessions and bouts of resistance exercise. J. Strength Cond. Res. 13:111–117. 1999.
19. Biolo G., BD Williams, RY Declan Fleming and RR Wolfe. Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance training. Diabetes 48: 949-957, 1999.
20. Roy, B.D., M.A. Tarnopolsky, J.D. MacDougall, J. Fowles, and K.E. Yarasheski. Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training. J. Appl. Physiol. 82:1882–1888. 1997.
21. Chandler, R.M., H.K. Byrne, J.G. Patterson, and J.L. Ivy. Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 76:839–845. 1994.
22. Kraemer, W.J., J.S. Volek, J.A. Bush, M. Putukian, and W.J. Sebastianelli. Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation. J. Appl. Physiol. 85:1544–1555. 1998.
23. Bowtell JM, K Gelly, M L Jackman, A Patel, M Simeoni, and M J Rennie. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. J Appl Physiol 86: 1770-1777, 1999
24. Nelson, AG., DA Arnall, J Kokkonen, R Day, and J. Evans. Muscle glycogen supercompensation is enhanced by prior creatine supplementation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., 33; 7: 1096-1100, 2001.
25. Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000.
26. Bowtell JL, K. Gelly, ML Jackman, A Patel, M. Simeoni, and M. J. Rennie Effect of different carbohydrate drinks on whole body carbohydrate storage after exhaustive exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 1529-1536, 2000.
I guess we're not reading the same thing. When reading this article, one can conclude that high gi carbs increase glycogen uptake better even if the article didn't mention low gi carbs specifically. Peace.Congrats on finding an article and posting it. It states nothing about the difference in insulin spikes between a medium GI carb and a refined high GI carb PWO and what that difference means in terms of glycogen uptake into muscle cells.
Science backs this up.I've always read that you wanted a high GI carb after your w/o for the insulin spike, which in turn makes the nutrients(protein,creatine,BCAA,etc) quickly absorbed in your muscles.
this had been argued to death by Bobo a while ago. Anyways, the only problem with the majority of these studies is that they are on fasting subjects..... this changes the equation entirely. Having existing food in your stomach and absorption occurring, which it should be as you never want to train fasted, pretty much throws the whole high vs. low GI stuff out the window. I still enjoy my WMS though, just for reasons that i'm usually not too ready to eat a bunch of solid food pwo.Science backs this up.
Who said you needed that much dextrose? I didn't. A person doesn't have to use dextrose, any carb with an high gi will do IMMEDIATELY post workout. I believe for example that if a person consumes 45% carbs daily that half of that should be consumed during post workout. All of it doesn't have to be high gi as stated in this article/study.I'm curious as to how many times Max-OT or AST tried to pitch one of their products to you in that article?
Dextrose is obviously a good form of PWO carb. However, it has nowhere near the nutritional value of oatmeal and your insulin levels will spike enough from the oatmeal where carbs will be shuttled into muscle cells along with other nutrients. If you are suppose to get between .3-.5g per LB PWO that would be nearly 100gr of dextrose for someone 200lbs or more. That is a ton of useless sugar. Not all of us are 168 rick