Critique Needed. Epistane+11-OXO. Any input welcome.

[DrewXFit]

Healthy Male age 22.
6'1" 185lb
3 years of lifting experience

3 years ago, I was a lazy, asthmatic, drug user, who weighed 130lbs dripping wet. Nowadays, I can run a 20 minute 5k, and not even die. Totals: BP-255 Squat-455 DL-425 C&J-205 Snatch-Bad. I look better, feel better, and function better. After 3 years of hard work, I feel like I'm ready to take things to a new level. I would love to hear the community's input on my upcoming cycle. I've spent a considerable amount of time researching, but would like a bit of clarification and confirmation.


4 Weeks Out
Ratchet down diet i.e. Consistently meet clean calorie goals
Implement increased supplementation regimen i.e. additional omegas, vitamins, Glucosamine/MSM
Regulate sleep
Generally speaking, my diet has always been my downfall. I struggle to eat the amount of calories I require (cleanly, that is.) My appetite just isn't there, so most meals are fairly unpleasant. I'm struggling through it though.

--General Supplementation--
1.5-2 gallons of good ol' H2O
MultiVitamin
BVit Complex
Omega 3-6-9
Glucosamine+MSM
BCAA's
Sleep Complex (Melatonin+5-HTP+GABA)
Foam Rolling + Stretching
Massage (dependant on GF's mood)
PreWorkout(Mixed from bulk powders- Citrulline, Beta-Alanine, Taurine, L-Carnatine, BCAA's, L-Glutamine, and Caffeine)

--2 Weeks Out--
Start cycle support regimen (Cycle Assist, Organ Shield, Increased joint support, and Omega's)

--On-Cycle--
Epistane (IBE's Epistane) 20-20-20-20-20
11-OXO (LGI's 11-X) 300-300-300-300-300
CEL Cycle Assist
Purus Labs Liver Shield

--PCT--
Torem - 90-90-60-60-30
Erase Pro
CEL Cycle Assist


Would consider increasing Epi dosage depending on how I am responding.


--QUESTIONS--

I have seen a lot of people running Nolva in addition to their SERM. With these particular PH's/dosages and cycle length, would this be necessary?

For the amount of PH taken, is my PCT dosage of Torem sufficient?

Should I decide to up dosage of Epi to 30/day, would this PCT be sufficient?

Until fairly recently, I had been taking creatine daily. I decided to stop and let my body start naturally producing again (as I'm sure I had mostly shut it down). Question being, when should I start taking creatine again? Preload for the start of the cycle, or (as I've seen a few people do on here) wait til PCT to start? Advantages / Disadvantages?

Missing anything?



I realize I'm new here, but I would really love to hear what everyone has to say on this matter. Seems like there is a great bounty of knowledge, and a very supportive group here. Thank you in advance to anyone who decides to throw in their two cents.

I will definitely log this cycle (once I finalize it and mentally prepare myself) for anyone who is interested.

 

[rphash49]

You don't need Nolva if you are using torem. Torem dose should be fine or you could do 120 1st week(i do 120 1st week). Go 6 weeks on epi cycle with most gains coming weeks 5 and 6. Add DAA to pct 3g a day

 

[rphash49]

I would start the creatine with pct. Never heard of natural creatine production shut down lol.

 

[kaikara]

You won't get anything at 20mg. Up to 30mg at least with the option to go to 40mg.

 

[hvactech]

11x is dosed low....it needs to be ran higher for results. I'd just use stano

 

[JoeStyles]

Seems like DAA would be better in place of the Erase Pro. You know something that triggers the LH production to facilitate the switch to the Torem for Test support. Torem acts as an AI itself, so having Erase seems like overkill to me, and not really cost effective when additional diet work and DAA would actually be better.

 

[kaikara]

Seems like DAA would be better in place of the Erase Pro. You know something that triggers the LH production to facilitate the switch to the Torem for Test support. Torem acts as an AI itself, so having Erase seems like overkill to me, and not really cost effective when additional diet work and DAA would actually be better.

In place of? They do different things. DAA is a test booster. Erase is an AI. Run them both.

 

[rphash49]

You won't get anything at 20mg. Up to 30mg at least with the option to go to 40mg.

I missed that. Both are underdosed. Run epi at 40mg for 6 weeks

 

[JoeStyles]

In place of? They do different things. DAA is a test booster. Erase is an AI. Run them both.

Remind me again why he needs an AI when his nuts are shut down? Rebound? Torem solves that itself, and that is if his nuts even start waking up before the first week. Running an AI for PCT is a waste of money.

 

[harbonah]

Remind me again why he needs an AI when his nuts are shut down? Rebound? Torem solves that itself, and that is if his nuts even start waking up before the first week. Running an AI for PCT is a waste of money.

Not exactly, he would benefit from an AI starting about the end of week 3 tapered down over 4 weeks it will lower the chance of rebound gyno most forget a SERM will actually increase the amount of estrogen the body has. Dosage of Epi is low I would go with 30 to 40mg for 6 weeks. Also 11oxo should be doubled or look at stanodrol 5alpha test or 4ad rde all good options for a test base of sorts.

 

[stankyleg]

11oxo needs to be over a gram a day. It's a great compound when dosed high enough.

 

[harbonah]

11oxo needs to be over a gram a day. It's a great compound when dosed high enough.

Depends on the goal if just cutting or just to help with sides like a low dose test base 500-600 is fine. If your planning on using it to put any weight on 900 is probably minimum dosage and for this I would agree over a gram is your best bet.
I feel the need to point out though with stack your joints are going to be screaming.

 

[JoeStyles]

Not exactly, he would benefit from an AI starting about the end of week 3 tapered down over 4 weeks it will lower the chance of rebound gyno most forget a SERM will actually increase the amount of estrogen the body has. Dosage of Epi is low I would go with 30 to 40mg for 6 weeks. Also 11oxo should be doubled or look at stanodrol 5alpha test or 4ad rde all good options for a test base of sorts.

Are you predicting when his LH will start rising and telling his nuts when to turn back on now?

Torem is essentially the same as Nolva. Taking an AI with Torem merely hinders his junk turning back on fast enough to keep a good percentage of the gains.

Torem isn't going to cause cause rebound either, as it increases sensitivity to GnRH as opposed to decreasing it like Clomid.

 

[tinytony]

Are you predicting when his LH will start rising and telling his nuts when to turn back on now?

Torem is essentially the same as Nolva. Taking an AI with Torem merely hinders his junk turning back on fast enough to keep a good percentage of the gains.

Torem isn't going to cause cause rebound either, as it increases sensitivity to GnRH as opposed to decreasing it like Clomid.

Aromasin raises free test and possibly IGF-1. How does this hinder keeping gains? I always use it PCT after a dry compound and lately after basically every cycle. It makes me feel better.

 

[JoeStyles]

Aromasin raises free test and possibly IGF-1. How does this hinder keeping gains? I always use it PCT after a dry compound and lately after basically every cycle. It makes me feel better.

It's not raising test if he's shut down. It's not doing anything other than possibly making it harder for him to recover thanks to the Torem making him more sensitive to GnRH levels.

The whole point of PCT is to getting his HTPA turned back on as fast as possible. That requires GnRH to be raised, which AI's do not do, they typically inhibit it. DAA raises it.

 

[tinytony]

It's not raising test if he's shut down. It's not doing anything other than possibly making it harder for him to recover thanks to the Torem making him more sensitive to GnRH levels.

The whole point of PCT is to getting his HTPA turned back on as fast as possible. That requires GnRH to be raised, which AI's do not do, they typically inhibit it. DAA raises it.

I didn't say raise test. I said raises free test. Big difference. DAA in theory raises test production but some guys don't respond to it. I use Aromasin as I said along with Clomid and the balls came back so fast and huge that they hurt. Lost only a couple pounds throughout PCT.

 

[harbonah]

It's not raising test if he's shut down. It's not doing anything other than possibly making it harder for him to recover thanks to the Torem making him more sensitive to GnRH levels.

The whole point of PCT is to getting his HTPA turned back on as fast as possible. That requires GnRH to be raised, which AI's do not do, they typically inhibit it. DAA raises it.

I do agree DAA would be a great addition and I hope most of this make sense since I am posting at 3 in the morning due to my sleep being all messed up from having the flu all week.......

Part of the idea is LH part is that you will be mostly recovered, but you will also need to be concerned with the elevated estrogen as you come off the the SERM as many have accidentally realized it can cause a rebound of estrogen that leads to gyno.


Inhibition of aromatization stimulates luteinizing hormone and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6541658

Also an odd thing most don't realize is that both tamoxifen citrate and clomiphene citrate lower IGF-1 levels and I also suspect Torem will do the same.

And while that GHRH will be increased its kind of a double edged sword it will clearly help you recover but it will also inhibit your gh and igf-1 levels which really validates the trend I am seeing of using a ghrp/cjc stack in pct.
[h=1]Effect of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 serum level in stage I-II breast cancer patients[/h]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809


I think we are taking the OP thread a lot farther then he meant though so ill simply say end of week 3 or last few days of week 4 of your SERM a mild AI would be a great addition tapered down for another 4 weeks.
[h=1][/h]

 

[tinytony]

I do agree DAA would be a great addition and I hope most of this make sense since I am posting at 3 in the morning due to my sleep being all messed up from having the flu all week.......

Part of the idea is LH part is that you will be mostly recovered, but you will also need to be concerned with the elevated estrogen as you come off the the SERM as many have accidentally realized it can cause a rebound of estrogen that leads to gyno.

Inhibition of aromatization stimulates luteinizing hormone and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6541658

Also an odd thing most don't realize is that both tamoxifen citrate and clomiphene citrate lower IGF-1 levels and I also suspect Torem will do the same.

And while that GHRH will be increased its kind of a double edged sword it will clearly help you recover but it will also inhibit your gh and igf-1 levels which really validates the trend I am seeing of using a ghrp/cjc stack in pct.
[h=1]Effect of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 serum level in stage I-II breast cancer patients[/h]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

I think we are taking the OP thread a lot farther then he meant though so ill simply say end of week 3 or last few days of week 4 of your SERM a mild AI would be a great addition tapered down for another 4 weeks.
[h=1][/h]

I like this

 

[DrewXFit]

Far from from taking it away from the topic, this is more or less what I was hoping for. I was going for a more moderate approach to this. Thanks for all input, everybody.