I would not recommend a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro, you would more than likely crash your Estrogen.
"Crash" your estrogen?
There are essentially no reports of estrogenic side effects experienced from 4-Andro usage, real-life reports do not show issues such as sensitive nipples, gynecomastia, water retention or bloating. Theoretically these are possible, but judging by the logs this is not a real life issue. Also, we have anecdotal reports regarding the effectiveness of 4-Andro in increasing Testosterone levels:
Scientific studies > anecdotal feedback 100% of the time. I have found countless studies showing both 4androstenedione and 4androstenedione to convert to estrogen at very high rates. There were very moderate reports of testosterone increase, but the estrogen levels were far higher than the testosterone levels, making it a mute point. Further, since there are zero studies on 4DHEA, we have no way of knowing what other metabolites it's converting in to.
I would also question the dosage used in the 4DHEA products and ask if that could account for the results you're seeing. The standard oral dosages of the original 4androstenediol products was in the 300-600mg range, while these new 4DHEA products are extremely low, around 75-100mg.
This conclusion is a bit too 'absolute' in its terms. A 16% increase in Testosterone levels over baseline is significant.
Keep in mind that you're just looking at the abstract for this study. So, even though there was a 16% increase in testosterone conversion,
the conversion from androstenedione to estradiol was as high as 92.1%, while the androstenediol conversion to estradiol was 57.4% as quoted in the full text of the article.
The fact that the body reaches homeostasis after 12-weeks is not surprising at all... Of course you'd have an increase in aromatization and down-regulation of the HPTA after 3 months (12-weeks). But people who use 4-Andro are using it as a Test base, so they are already going to be suppressed from the use of other compounds, and rarely do oral-only cycles reach 12-weeks in length. So this study does not justify the use of a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro.
If the conversion rates to estrogen via androstenedione and diol didn't convince you that you need an AI using 4DHEA, consider the other data from the Andro Project study.
The diol group’s androstenedione levels increased 62% from its pretreatment value. No significant change was observed in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in total testosterone, free testosterone, and serum hormone- binding globulin. However, estrone, estradiol, and DHEAS levels significantly increased in both the dione and diol groups. In addition, both the diol and dione groups’ estrone and estradiol levels were significantly greater than the placebo group following the intervention period. In slight contrast, the diol treatment produced the most significant increase in DHEAS levels (diol, 218%; dione, 61%)
Not to mention this (which was theorized to be caused by the extremely high estrogen conversion)
In fact, the androstenedione group showed an increase of body fat on average of 3.6kg [~8lbs].
This is similar to when people say that you can over-saturate the Androgen Receptor. It's hypothetical, and extremely unlikely. There is zero proof that using several precursors which require conversion will use all available enzymes and leave you with less of the target hormone due to competition. Again, real world results run counter to this hypothesis, because we have seen multiple people get results from stacking multiple prohormones that require conversion. So we have to step back yet again and ask, even if this does occur on some level, does it have a real world impact?
This is a completely different argument than over saturating the AR. The 3b-HSD and 17-beta-HSD are a finite resource and can only convert so much prohormone before it can convert no more. This is why you can't, for example, take 2 or three grams of a prohormone and get the same results as you would if you took 2 or three grams of testosterone. Testosterone doesn't need to convert to anything via enzyme pathways to conversion to bind to the AR. If you were to take large amounts of prohormones, it would not have the same effects. We demonstrated this years ago before the prohormone ban came into effect.
But, with the majority of these compounds, like I've mentioned in my articles is that there is almost no data on them (sorry, anecdotal feedback doesn't count). How much of 4DHEA is converting to androstenedione and how much to androstenediol? Without proper studies, we have no idea. Here is a quote from Patrick Arnold from 1999 regarding the subject (and bear in mind this has to do with the dione and diol versions that were legal at the time, not the 4DHEA compound we're talking about now).
How much prohormone can one enzymatic pathway handle before the enzyme is used up and the excess prohormone becomes wasted? Also, how long before the enzymes are back to normal levels in the liver? In other words, how much 4-AD can be taken at one time and how often throughout the day should it be taken?
Unfortunately we still do not know at what dosage a saturation of receptors is reached with any of the prohormones. It certainly seems that the threshold is much higher with 3beta-HSD (transforms the 4-diols) than with 17beta-HSD (transforms the 4-diones). I have heard of dose dependent increases in effects up to a few grams a day with the diols, so it may be that either a saturation is not being reached OR unchanged diol is exerting a direct anabolic/androgenic effect.
Source:
https://thinksteroids.com/articles/ask-patrick-arnold-15/
I would too, but it is not cheap to test for Nandrolone, Boldenone or '1-Testosterone' (Dihydroboldenone). Obviously Testosterone and Estrogen can be tested for rather cost effectively, but the others are not tested for in blood work outside of studies that have been done specifically on these compounds.
You're telling me Olympus Labs doesn't have the money to spare to actually test 4DHEA to see how much it's conversion to estrogen, andro dione and diol is? We're not talking about 1-test and boldenone here, just testosterone. That tells me you're not very confident in your product if you aren't willing to pony up the money to run actual blood tests on 4DHEA.
But, today is your lucky today, because I know of two people who are willing to pay for these tests for you.
Both Will Brink:
http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-facts-on-testosterone-boosting-supplements/
And Price Plow:
https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/blood-testing
Have offered, completely free of charge, to run blood tests on testers of these products, so Olympus Labs wouldn't have to spend a penny on it (other than maybe providing some sample bottles of the products)
5 days of supplementation of just 100mg? It's hard to believe the scientists even thought a conclusion could be drawn from such a short duration and such a low dosage... I wouldn't say they "were in a full catabolic, muscle wasting state" which implies that taking 4-Andro at just 100mg for 5 days led to massive muscle loss. Very misleading. You emphasize one segment, but ignore their conclusion: "Compared to a control group, androstenedione did not affect muscle protein synthesis and breakdown, or phenylalanine net balance across the leg. We conclude that oral androstenedione does not increase plasma testosterone concentrations and has no anabolic effect on muscle protein metabolism in young eugonadal men."
Maybe it's just me, but if I saw a peer reviewed scientific study that showed a product that inhibited protein synthesis, which was advertised to have to anabolic properties of testosterone, I would have to seriously think twice about putting that compound in my body if my goal was to gain lean muscle mass. Not to mention, my quote up above from the Andro Project study showing that test subjects increased fat mass and not muscle.
So 100mg of 4-Andro taken for 5 days in men who are not suppressed didn't lead to results. These results don't apply to men who ARE suppressed, using 330mg daily which is over 3x the dosage
You're making a false comparison. How much of that 330mg of 4DHEA converts to androstenedione? The answer is we have no idea, so it could be very high, it could be very low, or it could be variable depending on the person.
for 4-8 weeks which is 5-11x the duration, nor does it apply to lymphatic delivery which would result in higher blood levels.
Has this lymphatic delivery system being tested in a peer reviewed scientific journal?
There are many variables to account for here, of which I don't have time to go into at the moment. But once more I'll say this, consider real world relevance. We have many men using over 3x this dosage for a much much longer duration and none of them are complaining about rapid muscle loss. Nor are they getting gyno and wishing they had a pharma AI.
And I'll say again, real world results will NEVER be a match for controlled experiments by trained scientists who can control variables, look at exercise routines, look at the diet, look at blood results on a daily basis, make sure the subjects aren't supplementing with anything else that could skew the results, and on and on.
Not to mention, I have plenty of other studies showing very similar results with 4 androstenedione and diol converting to high rates of estrogen, being extremely poorly bioavailable orally, and not responding to common products like the "On Cycle Therapy" products meant to reduce estrogen, keep HDL/LDL in check, make sure DHT doesn't skyrocket, and etc. All of which I'd be happy to post if you'd like to take a look at them.