Sourdough, PM me a link to the actual study, I can't get on PHF in my current location.
5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.
Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf
It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.
Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.
You didn't read very much huh?5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
incorrectTraps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.
this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.
Physiol Res. 2000;49(6):685-93.
Effects of transdermal application of DHEA on the levels of steroids, gonadotropins and lipids in men.
Sulcová J, Hill M, Hampl R, Masek Z, Novácek A, Ceska R, Stárka L.
Source
Institute of Endocrinology, AREKO, Ltd., First Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic. [email protected]
Abstract
In order to ascertain the kinetics of absorption and metabolism of transdermally administered dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), 10 men 29-72 years old (mean 52.4+/-14.5) received 50 mg DHEA/day in a gel applied onto the skin of the abdomen for 5 consecutive days. The objective was to establish the extent to which DHEA influences the levels of gonadotropins, sex hormone-binding globulin and lipids. It was found that DHEA is well absorbed and rapidly metabolized to its sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, and consequently to testosterone and estradiol. The DHEA levels that markedly increased after the first doses gradually declined already during the application, and this decline proceeded even after it was discontinued, reaching levels significantly lower than the original ones. On the other hand, the levels of DHEA metabolites (with the exception of DHEAS) rose during the application and reached values significantly higher than the basal ones within 5 weeks. This effect was accompanied by significantly decreased levels of LH. The serum levels of lipids, namely of cholesterol (both HDL and LDL cholesterol), triglycerides, apolipoproteins A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) after DHEA application were not changed significantly, and the atherogenic index (AI) remained unaltered. However, some correlations between hormones and lipids were found. Negative correlations concerned the following indices: DHEA/Lp(a); DHEAS/cholesterol; DHEA, DHEAS, testosterone/TG; testosterone/AI. On the other hand, LH, FSH/cholesterol, FSH, SHBG/LDL cholesterol, FSH/Apo B, Lp(a) correlated positively. It can be concluded that transdermal short-time application of DHEA results in a decrease of endogenous DHEA after finishing the treatment, with a parallel marked increase in the levels of sex hormones. Using this application protocol, exogenous DHEA neither altered the lipid spectrum, nor did it influence the atherogenic index.
PMID:
11252535
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?I love the conversation that is going on. Keep in mind we are not duplicating the product at all. We are making changes that have not been released yet. But for fun:
that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?
The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...
So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...
Ok...Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.
lol....fail.Do not want!
Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males
Because there is Market for it and money to be made legally under the guise of being a legit ph in a market that's about to be non-existent?Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?
Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.
you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.I notice a big improvement in my general well being when using it. Of course my age could be dictating that.
There are hormones that lead to better conversion rates in the skin on that part of the body. I don't know the exact science but I know PP posted it a while back and the science is sound. The same is recommended for andro-gel users by Endo's all over the US; my father's being one of them. I am sure that there is a study that covers this in detail but I have not seen a post with it in a long time now.Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
We don't know the ingredient list, you may very well be right. You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.You didn't read very much huh?
Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)
Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?
Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.
What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?
Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?
Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?
And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.
Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
Never while using it.you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.
I remember some threads a while back about how Dermacrine was a huge help to guys on TRT. All the reasoning escapes me though, it was years ago.Never while using it.
You'll see in one of my first posts that this was one of the only viable groups of users I'd suggest to use a dhea product.I remember some threads a while back about how Dermacrine was a huge help to guys on TRT. All the reasoning escapes me though, it was years ago.
oh, i didn't address that point directly cause i don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying in regards to application sites dictating to a great measure the immediate outcome of the product being administered...... that is with most hormones like androstenedione or test that could benefit or suffer from specific site administration....You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.
Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
concentration levels of the conversion enzymes are at there highest and aromatase enzymes are at their lowest at those suggested sites.
let me expound using the previously quoted study as backing to what i am about to suggest...this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....
And with dhea, there are plenty of points along the conversion process where either the metabolites itself can interact with the er and/or can still convert directly to an estrogen.....
Really the estrogenic worries of dhea are not solely the product of estrogen itself.
Wow, mountain of text for a lot of speculationi. Of course suppression occurs, your introducing exogenous hormones - where you expecting the body to not adjust to that?You didn't read very much huh?
Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)
Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?
Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.
What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?
Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?
Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?
And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.
Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
Me thinks that you may have Resolve'd many of the issues he is addressing. PUN intended!Wow, mountain of text for a lot of speculationi. Of course suppression occurs, your introducing exogenous hormones - where you expecting the body to not adjust to that?
And read beyond page 2? I did. Table 1, which clearly states "NS" (non-significant) changes in estrogen levels is on page 3. Figure 2 is on page 5.
And if you're concerned over E levels rising after DHEA usage, like figure 2 shows, well that's exactly what PCT is for. Of course there are going to be endocrinological shifts after you cease using a hormone. Controlling Estrogen rebound is why AIs are part of PCT - this isn't anything new or unique to DHEA.
Furthermore, if you're still concerned over on cycle E conversion (which this paper states is non-significant), we have this awesome product called Formasurge designed for just that purpose.
Let's look at estrogen in the figures:
Fig1. Shift in Estradiol is insignificant for the sample (that 'NS' again), with only a 45 year old and a 72 year old showing concentration changes of more than ~0.1nM. In fact, E levels dropped (though insignificantly) for 2 55yos and a 69yo.
Fig2. Significant shift in average E after cessation of treatment, due to lack of PCT as we've addressed. On cycle E change looks about to be maybe from ~0.07nm to ~0.12nm, incredibly small and only the initial and final concentrations are stated to be significant from what I can see. Look at the size of those error bars! That one 45 year-old from fig 1 is really shifting the stats here. That drop in luteinizing hormone? Probably due to the increase in test post treatment. Again, PCT would moderate that.
Fig3. Lipids stay stable, yahoo.
PP has a 4-DHEA product...You didn't read very much huh?
Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)
Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?
Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.
What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?
Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?
Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?
And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.
Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
For a ridiculous price and not in a transdermal application which is actually much cheaper to make then their special liquavade delivery systems....PP has a 4-DHEA product...
It's transdermal (AndroEnhance), but the price is a bit steep though.For a ridiculous price and not in a transdermal application which is actually much cheaper to make then their special liquavade delivery systems....
We need an option other then theirs and ams cyclo tabs... transdermal beats both of these imo and again it's pretty cheap to even develops a great carrier.
Hmmm... that's new. Guess it's what i get for leaving the boards for the last 5 monthsIt's transdermal (AndroEnhance), but the price is a bit steep though.
I purchased 3 tubes, they did mention that they were working to get the price down
That's very good info Sourdough. I'll still be purchasing PP products; but extremely important information nonetheless.Wooow... ridiculous as expected.... 129 bucks.
Even worse it seems to be proprietary? AND is got 11oxo in it, listed in the ingredients BEFORE the 4dhea....
If you know much about primordials carrier at all(they used to sell penetrate separate and i used it all the time for my powders) their carrier is all of 15-18 bucks at the retail level(obviously not their cost) and can hold at MAX 50mg a ml and even then it's pushing saturation levels.... Primordial would never push these saturation levels, they suggest no more then 30mg/ml typically... this means that they are splitting this volume between the 2 compounds contained... it's gonna take a TON of this cream to even get a viable dose and you'll likely run out of application area before you even get to that point.
Some of this stuff makes me sick. 4 androstenediol powder used to go for less then a dollar a gram at times.... dhea now can be had in order still for even less... premade td creams can cost less then 10 bucks, real good ones for less then 20 and custom made one's are REAL CHEAP specially with dmso in the mix... the cost for this 4dhea powder can't possibly be so high to warrant this kind of markup to cover overhead and provide profit....
I'll be stocking up on all these designers and fast before the next (last) ban rolls cause I'm not paying hundreds for dhea analogues.
Yes, this. Back on topic.Guys, I appreciate your input on PP products, but please keep in mind this is a thread regarding a BPS product. Let's not get derailed here.
Don't worry. We'll be gentle.awesome info here-really liking this thread..if BPS actually improves on PP's derma AND the cost is reasonable, as a guy over 40, you'll have me for life, lol..
There will be 60 servings. I can tell you that much.Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
Very soon. Currently Vanillean is the product due to release first so this will be next.When will the ingredients of the BPS product be released? I'm interested.
Dermacrine is no longer licensed by BPS.Umm yea so where the hell is it? Why can't I find one dermacrine product anywhere?
It's not so much additions as it is a completely different formula.None of us have seen the new formula yet, but from what I understand, there will be some 'additions'.
BPS products are notoriously well priced. Why they should supply 8 weeks in a bottle when use of 4-6 is what is recommended is beyond me. Unless trying to stick it to a competitor by making something as a slap in the face instead of intending to make profit off of it. Besides you have to consider other things in price like labeling, manufacturing, marketing costs, the need to make a profit. Not to mention you are paying for the convenience of not having to get the ingredients to make your own transdermal solution, and sourcing the raws, measuring it all out accurately and creating your own solution. That could take some time and annoyance. If I spend 2 hours of my time making a "$10.00 bottle of dhea transdermal" at my hourly wages I just spent a whole lot more than what is being charged for most products. Not to mention my personal time is more valuable to me than my work hours. You can't just add up the cost of raws and say this is all that the product is worth spending and anything else is overcharging for it. If that were the case then you would not be looking for a product but but instead creating your own. Certainly we all want a good deal but I think we can all agree that BPS keeps their prices more than reasonable for their products. They do not over inflate them nor under dose them.Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
Not sure where any Dermacrine is for sale. We no longer carry it in our line. This product is still in the process of creation / manufacturing.Umm yea so where the hell is it? Why can't I find one dermacrine product anywhere?
I don't think it will be too long from what I understand but BPS or Metroba can shed more light on that subject. Also Like us on Facebook BulkPerformanceSolutions-BPS lots of the trickle down information is posted out there before it hits the forums.When will the ingredients of the BPS product be released? I'm interested.