Best Prohormone for Just Straight Massive Size???

[kingofthechiba]

heres a good one: in terms of size gains, which would you recommend dinoii m1t or superdrol. AND which is more toxic to the liver

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Not necessarily that far off topic. How hepatotoxic in comparison to superdrol + M1T -or- relative toxicity as in transaminase lab findings, etc...

Recall that transaminase elevations (liver enzymes like AST, ALT) are very non-specific and things like bilirubin, CPK, amongst a battery of other lab studies give us a much clearer picture of hepatocyte (liver cell) insult.


D_

In comparison to superdrol or M1T, how hepatoxic is it?

 

[RisingAgainst]

In comparison to superdrol or M1T, how hepatoxic is it?

In comparison, "hardly". It's not going to elevate values as much, but... in contrast, I wouldn't dose lower than 90mgs, so with that taken into consideration, more active in less time, it has potential to elevate liver values, but still not quite as bad.

 

[dinoiii]

heres a good one: in terms of size gains, which would you recommend dinoii m1t or superdrol. AND which is more toxic to the liver

Depends on the lot number of the M1T! Trust me on this one, NOT ALL "M1T" is CREATED EQUAL!!!

SD on a mg-for-mg basis is more "toxic" to the liver.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

In comparison to superdrol or M1T, how hepatoxic is it?

Your "typical" monotherapy cycles of the three would yield results as follows:

SD > M1T > > M 1,4 ADD


RA: Please don't make too many assumptions about how elevated transaminase levels are per se (as I stated above). For instance, do you think that a lab result of AST 140 is much worse than an AST lab of 78? This is far too simplistic and doesn't even work for all intensive purposes when something like muscular insult (through simple working out; rationale for ALWAYS INCLUDING - NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE - A CPK level and even an isoenzyme panel when going to your doctors, and remaining inactive and away from the gym for about 48 hours prior to the blood draw) is involved.


D_

 

[RisingAgainst]

Your "typical" monotherapy cycles of the three would yield results as follows:

superdrol > M1T > > M 1,4 ADD


RA: Please don't make too many assumptions about how elevated transaminase levels are per se (as I stated above). For instance, do you think that a lab result of AST 140 is much worse than an AST lab of 78? This is far too simplistic and doesn't even work for all intensive purposes when something like muscular insult (through simple working out; rationale for ALWAYS INCLUDING - NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE - A CPK level and even an isoenzyme panel when going to your doctors, and remaining inactive and away from the gym for about 48 hours prior to the blood draw) is involved.


D_

Not likely that it is practiced. (in all cases that is)

 

[DR.D]

... superdrol on a mg-for-mg basis is more "toxic" to the liver.


D_

OK, here we go... let's see what you got D.

 

[kingofthechiba]

well this is all new to me. ive always assumed m1t was harsher

 

[jomi822]

m1t vs superdrol....dun dun dun

m1t was certainly more anabolic on a mg per mg basis (gaspari was the best m1t i used out of the 4 cycles i ran).

superdrol certainly doesnt the job as well but id place it at 1/3 as effective on a mg per mg basis

 

[jonny21]

OK, here we go... let's see what you got D.

After reading the full thread, I also want to see what evidence to support the the extreme toxicity of superdrol.

Please do not post elevated AST/ALT values. I want to see CT scans, US's, biopsies of before and after a 3 -4 week superdrol only cycle.

 

[vidapreta]

Depends on the lot number of the M1T! Trust me on this one, NOT ALL "M1T" is CREATED EQUAL!!!

superdrol on a mg-for-mg basis is more "toxic" to the liver.


D_

Is this for real?? After years of posts stating M1T is rat poison and the absolute worst designer steroid on the liver. Two guys are claiming superdrol is worse???

 

[RisingAgainst]

Is this for real?? After years of posts stating M1T is rat poison and the absolute worst designer steroid on the liver. Two guys are claiming superdrol is worse???

I know a LOT of people who don't even recommend superdrol because of it's hepatoxicity... but eh, you only live once and I wanna see how resiliant I am, so I do as I will.

 

[vidapreta]

Weren't there tons of blood tests proving M1T to be worse.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Is this for real?? After years of posts stating M1T is rat poison and the absolute worst designer steroid on the liver. Two guys are claiming superdrol is worse???

Also.. I'd say it's the worst on lipids... not so much liver.. but the common word is against that right now.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Weren't there tons of blood tests proving M1T to be worse.

As I keep saying, (to no avail) back when m1t was popular, nobody was running SAMe and other wonderful supporting supplements that we have available to us now, whereas the ones getting bloodwork done on superdrol are (hopefully anyways) smart enough to use what we have available.. we're talking of a time frame (2004) when people ran methyls back to back to back to back in stacks of 4 and 5 for months on end with 6-oxo and milk thistle as a post cycle therapy.... and people wanna tell me that bloodwork done back then is worse because of the compound?? PFFFT puhhhlease.

EDIT: and to further compensate for the responses I predict on this statement... even when people did run a proper pct with m1t and used it alone, how many used all of todays supporting supplements? I personally wouldnt touch SD unless I had all of the acnilliaries I found to be effective, whereas, I would run M1T with half of them.. but to answer the question I foresee coming, "NO, I do NOT have proof" so don't bother asking If I could have proved this, I would have done so on page 1 or 2... lol I'm sure it can be proven though, given time and controls on various testing.

 

[Jayhawkk]

The same questions being asked of a M1T cycle should also be asked of the superdrol cycles and not just assumed. Superdrol was not far behind M1T and just because more support supps are out does not mean everyone jumped on them. You still have people not using AI"s or SERMS.

Please do not post elevated AST/ALT values. I want to see CT scans, US's, biopsies of before and after a 3 -4 week superdrol only cycle.

Again, just like those opposing your view, this is just unrealistic and lack of evidence does not automatically support your statement.

 

[RisingAgainst]

The same questions being asked of a M1T cycle should also be asked of the superdrol cycles and not just assumed. Superdrol was not far behind M1T and just because more support supps are out does not mean everyone jumped on them. You still have people not using AI"s or SERMS..

I agree.. but I do so sadly.. when I think about it.. there's people who use 6-oxo and thistle still today.. so you're 100% correct with that statement.

 

[AE14]

I am planning a MDrol Epi cycle in the near future, I am psyched to see the results, but am concenred with sides

 

[dinoiii]

Good to have you around here dino...maybe you can check in here more often?

Interestingly enough, you guys have kept my interest enough that I have been on this board the last three days (highly unusual). Well, ok, perhaps it was the consistent email reminders of replies to this topic. Nonetheless, I apparently have a lot of ground to cover today.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

OK, here we go... let's see what you got D.

Hey D-man! What's up - been meaning to get to that PM btw, will VERY soon - obviously my interest was sparked in this thread in the interim (suppose its a better thing to be thinking about than the alternative ).

I am prepping something into a PDF doc for this thread as we speak. It is rough being the "new" guy to a forum - but now I can say as you have officially invaded DA, I opted to return the favor at what I believe to be one of your stomping grounds.


"The Other" D_

 

[DR.D]

I am planning a MDrol Epi cycle in the near future, I am psyched to see the results, but am concenred with sides

I'm wondering if he was joking. Saying that SD (real branded SD) is more toxic than M1T is laughable. If SS were here, he'd be laughing his ass off too, and I've seen a ton of blood on both.

Epi is the same situation. Amazingly clean, on lipids too (relatively speaking of course.) I make no such defense for clones of SD or Epi. Epi is the only one that tests pure, and such is the case for much of the so-called "SD" out there today. Bogus products offer tainted results, thus this claim was a bad general statement on D's behalf. In fact, let me clarify my statements and issue the challenge to validate otherwise, in no unconditional terms:

1-Dehydro-17a-methyl-DHT is more hepatotoxic mg/mg (alk phos, etc.) than 2a,17a-Dimethyl-DHT or 2a,3a-Epithio-17a-methyl-DHT (by a long shot on this one!)

Now what? Let see the substantiation to oppose this.

 

[dinoiii]

After reading the full thread, I also want to see what evidence to support the the extreme toxicity of superdrol.

Please do not post elevated AST/ALT values. I want to see CT scans, US's, biopsies of before and after a 3 -4 week superdrol only cycle.

Easy there killer!

See what he did there everyone - he used my anti-AST/ALT stance against me.

Fortunately my judgement of hepatotoxicity is certainly based on a battery of tests rather than one in vacuum. There are "liver" function tests and there are liver function tests.


CT scans, U/S, and biopsy would have limited value in visualization of an essential hyperdensity. One thing we do have comparative data on is incidence of things like hepatoma and peliosis hepatis secondary to PH/PS/DeS use through evaluation with these exams, but as far as incidence of something more benign like NASH -or- more fibrotic conditions like cirrhosis ... the suggestion is a little less tell-tale from these studies.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

I'm wondering if he was joking. Saying that superdrol (real branded SD) is more toxic than M1T is laughable. If SS were here, he'd be laughing his ass off too, and I've seen a ton of blood on both.

Epi is the same situation. Amazingly clean, on lipids too (relatively speaking of course.) I make no such defense for clones of SD or Epi. Epi is the only one that tests pure, and such is the case for much of the so-called "SD" out there today. Bogus products offer tainted results, thus this claim was a bad general statement on D's behalf. In fact, let me clarify my statements and issue the challenge to validate otherwise, in no unconditional terms:

1-Dehydro-17a-methyl-DHT is more hepatotoxic mg/mg (alk phos, etc.) than 2a,17a-Dimethyl-DHT or 2a,3a-Epithio-17a-methyl-DHT (by a long shot on this one!)

Now what? Let see the substantiation to oppose this.

I have mentioned the difficulty of discernment with BOTH this whole "clone" issue as well as various lot numbers offering confounding variable.

Still, most people are using these products and making their suggestive statements based on them. Read: What can currently be used to date.

I would contest the notion that I make "bad general statements" of course.



D_

 

[dinoiii]

Weren't there tons of blood tests proving M1T to be worse.

"prove" is a strong word.

"support" on the other hand, I may buy...but we have already seen difficulty in this offering within the immediate confides of this very thread purporting said effects, no?


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Is this for real?? After years of posts stating M1T is rat poison and the absolute worst designer steroid on the liver. Two guys are claiming superdrol is worse???

Ouch!

There is a visual "S" on my chest if that is any consolation?

The suggestion of M1T being "rat poison" was incited by two things:

[1] Politics (at differing times)

-and-

[2] Post-Ban Marketing

Be it as it may, this is FAR from just two guys' suggestion btw...it would appear you don't travel to many other boards, etc... I take it.


D_

 

[EasyEJL]

Bogus products offer tainted results, thus this claim was a bad general statement on D's behalf. In fact, let me clarify my statements and issue the challenge to validate otherwise, in no unconditional terms:

not related to the discussion at hand, but I still wonder what methoxy tst or mega trn are

 

[DR.D]

I have mentioned the difficulty of discernment with BOTH this whole "clone" issue as well as various lot numbers offering confounding variable.

Still, most people are using these products and making their suggestive statements based on them. Read: What can currently be used to date.

I would contest the notion that I make "bad general statements" of course.



D_

So indeed, you assert that your claim is only applicable to "superdrol", as you put it? If that is your claim, so be it. Otherwise, it is an irresponsible and erroneous statement.

 

[dinoiii]

The same questions being asked of a M1T cycle should also be asked of the superdrol cycles and not just assumed. Superdrol was not far behind M1T and just because more support supps are out does not mean everyone jumped on them. You still have people not using AIs or SERMS.

I think we are in agreement with this statement overall - at least the way I am reading it. Although RA and I seem to be arguing in favor of SD > M1T in toxicity...my suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with support supplements.

Again, just like those opposing your view, this is just unrealistic and lack of evidence does not automatically support your statement.

Once again, as I suggested above - I agree here.


Grrrrrr......can someone please aid my use of the "mutli-quote" function on this site. :aargh:


D_

 

[EasyEJL]

Grrrrrr......can someone please aid my use of the "mutli-quote" function on this site. :aargh:


D_

yes, I can help. Don't click it as it doesn't work

 

[DR.D]

not related to the discussion at hand, but I still wonder what methoxy tst or mega trn are

I have not given up on those! As soon as I catch a break on product development, I'm going back to finish characterizing them.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have not given up on those! As soon as I catch a break on product development, I'm going back to finish characterizing them.

would be handy to know, as I can still get the original methoxy tst at $9 a bottle, gl's mega trn at around $28ish. At $9/bottle even if I have to go 12mg, its still a cheap cycle if it won't cause me to crap out my liver

 

[dinoiii]

So indeed, you assert that your claim is only applicable to "superdrol", as you put it? If that is your claim, so be it. Otherwise, it is an irresponsible and erroneous statement.

:goodpost:

You know I love you D! [I suppose I should insert the "no homo" suggestion or some odd statement here - doesn't really fit my persona still] I presume we could really light up some decent back and forths...should have made it in some time ago.



Back on topic: Unfortunately, people come in suggesting use of "SD" and I have to take them at that - so yes, I would unfortunately say it is very much so limited to their interpretation. Still, I don't know that I see the people who have posted on these boards to be making that differentiation all that often. :sad:



D_

 

[dinoiii]

yes, I can help. Don't click it as it doesn't work

Christ, who's the trickster? :toofunny:


D_

 

[DR.D]

... people come in suggesting use of "superdrol" and I have to take them at that - so yes ...

Very well. Thanks for the clarification, and I look forward to your presentation.

 

[DR.D]

would be handy to know, as I can still get the original methoxy tst at $9 a bottle, gl's mega trn at around $28ish. At $9/bottle even if I have to go 12mg, its still a cheap cycle if it won't cause me to crap out my liver

MeO-TST was the one I analyzed. I got a few bottles too, as cheap as it was, but the 'one run only' ad campaign kinda scared me.

 

[vidapreta]

Be it as it may, this is FAR from just two guys' suggestion btw...it would appear you don't travel to many other boards, etc... I take it.


The general consensis on every board I've ever been on, is always the same M1T is more liver toxic then superdrol.This is actually the first time I have ever heard otherwise. (from you 2 guys)

 

[Jayhawkk]

[1] Politics (at differing times)

-and-

[2] Post-Ban Marketing

Be it as it may, this is FAR from just two guys' suggestion btw...it would appear you don't travel to many other boards, etc... I take it

I would have to disagree here. I was around prior to both of those issues becoming a thorn in our sides and M1T was considered "rat poison" because of the significant sides and the bloodwork that turned up by several users on several boards.

I do believe many jumped on the forum bandwagon and began reciting these things until it became a much bigger problem. Aside from the bandwagon issue, I still think M1T is more damaging than the other products it has been compared to. I've taken superdrol and have never had the lipid or physical pains I had while taking M1T. I am open to being proven wrong as always but personal experience and those I know keeps me believing that it is a more damaging drug over superdrol at similar doses and cycle lengths.

 

[jonny21]

Easy there killer!

No killers here, just some interested individuals.

See what he did there everyone - he used my anti-AST/ALT stance against me.
D_

That is not your stance alone, I've been saying it for the past few years. Some of us common folk have a clue also.

 

[AM07]

After reading the full thread, I also want to see what evidence to support the the extreme toxicity of superdrol.

Please do not post elevated AST/ALT values. I want to see CT scans, US's, biopsies of before and after a 3 -4 week superdrol only cycle.

But have you ever seen CT scans and biopsies of M1T, or any other PH on the market? Probably not.

Guys, we are all guinea pigs for these products and their companies. For all we know, we could all develop brain cancer at age 50 due to ingesting all of these damn compounds.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Possible.

 

[jonny21]

But have you ever seen CT scans and biopsies of M1T, or any other PH on the market? Probably not.

That is exactly the point. From what I've read it all seems to be conjecture.

 

[kingofthechiba]

so wheres this pdf?

 

[RisingAgainst]

so wheres this pdf?

I'm not able to speak for Dana, but I will say this, he's busier than anybody else on this board.. let's show some patience...

 

[kingofthechiba]

i understand. just want to keep this thread alive. we may be onto a breakthrough!

 

[DR.D]

I'm not able to speak for Dana, but I will say this, he's busier than anybody else on this board.. let's show some patience...

D.H. MD is super mucho busy! Con chingos! :type:

 

[dinoiii]

Sorry about the lag time in response guys - NO, I did NOT abandon the thread. I really have to cycle through forums and merely do so on about a 3-day cycle outside of obligatory realm (i.e. - lb.com).

As I have informed other forums...I leave my computer open to forums and essentially peruse and answer a few things in between clients rather than being entranced and available 24/7...though that lifestyle would certainly be less stress-laden for sure.

That said, I am prepping this (if you have truly seen any of my analyses, you know they take time to put together)...the conversion to pdf will display multiple graphs and charts of various data that I think you all will find intriguing with the primary rationale being to remain objective and fair (as always). No malicious intent, et al. intended with the data.


Aside: Sorry about the duration of the phone conversation last evening Dr.D...YES, this D is very verbose and long-winded as you found out (I suppose not much different than on the forums). You were saved by that incoming. HA!


D_

 

[DR.D]

... Aside: Sorry about the duration of the phone conversation last evening Dr.D...YES, this D is very verbose and long-winded as you found out (I suppose not much different than on the forums). You were saved by that incoming. HA!


D_

I was enjoying our conversation too. You're not off the hook yet though my friend, because I have one of those 5000 minute plans. We'll have to resume soon.

 

[T-Bone]

Just thought I would post my thoughts on this subject. I almost died from Superdrol. With M1T I took it for 5 days and pissed blood. I think both of them are dangerous. I look forward to companies coming out with products that are much safe and you won't have to sacrice your health for gains in the gym...

 

[DR.D]

Just thought I would post my thoughts on this subject. I almost died from Superdrol. With M1T I took it for 5 days and pissed blood. I think both of them are dangerous. I look forward to companies coming out with products that are much safe and you won't have to sacrice your health for gains in the gym...

Can you elaborate as to the factors of those conditions? Your statements are a bit vague. You almost died because you swallowed the cap wrong and it got stuck in your windpipe? You were pissing blood because of a flareup from a latent kidney stone problem? What exactly happened in these situations T-bone and what were the findings?

 

[T-Bone]

Can you elaborate as to the factors of those conditions? Your statements are a bit vague. You almost died because you swallowed the cap wrong and it got stuck in your windpipe? You were pissing blood because of a flareup from a latent kidney stone problem? What exactly happened in these situations T-bone and what were the findings?

It was a whole big ordeal. I posted about it a while back more than a few times. It was several years ago so I don't remember much details but I can try and search for the posts...