Unanswered Beginner pro hormone stack

[Lachlanewart2]

Hi looking to start a mild oral pro hormone stack for Summer, needs to be unmethylayed and preferably something which has little gyno risks.

 

[Matthersby]

Hi looking to start a mild oral pro hormone stack for Summer, needs to be unmethylayed and preferably something which has little gyno risks.

That does narrow it down really well.

Can I ask why non methyl? And why not just use ancillary support to ensure no gyno?

 

[Matthersby]

Cause that leaves you with sarms, 11oxo, and Some Andros.

I’m not hip to much of the brand new stuff. But any other non methyl I know of will come with gyno risk like M-LMG and nandrolone precursor phs etc

 

[Lachlanewart2]

That does narrow it down really well.

Can I ask why non methyl? And why not just use ancillary support to ensure no gyno?

Got an ongoing liver problem I was born with so would rather not take the risk of using a methylated

 

[Lachlanewart2]

That does narrow it down really well.

Can I ask why non methyl? And why not just use ancillary support to ensure no gyno?

Got an ongoing liver problem I was born with so would rather not take the risk of using a methylated and yea I understand that I will have to use supplements regardless to prevent gyno I just don’t want to take something with very strong aromatising properties

 

[Matthersby]

Don’t use sarms then no matter who tells you they don’t affect liver

 

[Mathb33]

Yeah if you have liver issues please whatever board/forum you end up on do not use sarms whatever they tell you. I would honestly think about staying natural and living an healthy life if I was you

 

[Matthersby]

I n j e c t a b l e

 

[Matthersby]

Learn the ways of the needle. I fuggggggin hate ph’s anyways

 

[Afi140]

Well dosed andros like super mandro and mandro the giant will be your best bet. Very keepable gains and very little gyno risk imo. Yes 4-andro has potential to aromatize but an ai like virtus can keep it easily in check (if needed-I never have estro sides on any andros).

 

[Matthersby]

Yeah if you have liver issues please whatever board/forum you end up on do not use sarms whatever they tell you. I would honestly think about staying natural and living an healthy life if I was you

Agreed fully point one
Point two. Not as much.
If Flex can compete with one kidney this guy can get into bodybuilding with poor liver function. He’s just gotta decide his goals and relay them to us so we can get a good idea and give sound advice. We aren’t getting enough of the story.

Life story please!
Time training
Physique or strength goals
Experience
Favorite color
Sexual pref
Pets?
Health problems
Phobias

I want it all please

 

[Tsteele60]

I just picked some of the hard rock Andros up to finish my run. Also, grabbed the new CEL Stano-Plex and some 11-OXO to add to the mix. It’s my first cycle. Going for 8 weeks

 

[Mathb33]

Yeah but what’s the point of going with the andros if my man has liver issues? He’s never gonna be abble to switch to something stronger... and we all know once we start we don’t stop. My man is gonna run andros forever? I guess he could go low dose of the safest injectables that barely effect liver... that’d be safer. Or not run anything

 

[Mathb33]

Agreed fully point one
Point two. Not as much.
If Flex can compete with one kidney this guy can get into bodybuilding with poor liver function. He’s just gotta decide his goals and relay them to us so we can get a good idea and give sound advice. We aren’t getting enough of the story.

Life story please!
Time training
Physique or strength goals
Experience
Favorite color
Sexual pref
Pets?
Health problems
Phobias

I want it all please

Lmao true. That’s why you’re smarter than me. I just thought straight away he was dealing with Crigler-Najjar syndrome or some type of Cirrhosis.

 

[Matthersby]

Lmao true. That’s why you’re smarter than me. I just thought straight away he was dealing with Crigler-Najjar syndrome or some type of Cirrhosis.

No I’m not bro. We both come up with some great ideas on here, collectively. I’ve met guys with half my experience that can conjure up a brilliant cycle.
The longer I do this, the less value I see in most orals. And andros may as well be MK or Osta or strong creatine.
**** he could get swole as hell on just Humulin-R. I’m talking Deca and anadrol gains, not affect his liver and hoooooooppppefully not drop dead from hypo.

Or just cruise test prop and a little primo It would straight up destroy 11oxo/andro runs and with no gyno or liver strain. F/$k orals...

 

[Matthersby]

If you’re gonna use steroids, use steroids, it’s not like it isn’t 10x safer running 300/300 prop/mast than eating 6 different Andros and paying $600 damn dollars for 11keto/11oxo runs. I’d take 8 weeks of suppression for a great stack over $1k in “supplements” that still
might shut me down for nothing at all. Just switching to DC training and eating a pound of Pb daily would put more muscle on than Andro/11 stack. Btw nothing against them great for beginners, but cycles should show something at the end of them.

 

[Mathb33]

Test/primo is what I would think about if I was him. Low dose, blood work mid/end of cycle and see how his liver values are and adjust from there. whatever what people say about andros stack being non methylated and adding no stress to the liver, I still think low dose test and primo wouldn’t have liver values elevated more than a big andro stack. Plus, you’d feel hella better on cycle.

 

[Tsteele60]

If you’re gonna use steroids, use steroids, it’s not like it isn’t 10x safer running 300/300 prop/mast than eating 6 different Andros and paying $600 damn dollars for 11keto/11oxo runs. I’d take 8 weeks of suppression for a great stack over $1k in “supplements” that still
might shut me down for nothing at all. Just switching to DC training and eating a pound of Pb daily would put more muscle on than Andro/11 stack. Btw nothing against them great for beginners, but cycles should show something at the end of them.

To be fair, it IS quite expensive. Definitely won’t be dropping this much in the near future. But just graduated college, and got a damn good paying job that allows me to save for my future and mess around with some toys. Also, I’m running it on a cut to try to recomp as much as possible. I’m down 9.6 lbs in 4 weeks and my strength numbers are still there. Haven’t measured BF% yet to get an idea of where I stand from my start, but I’d imagine I’m dropping some. As long as it does what I want, and I get someplace closer to where I want to be then it works for me. Haha all in all, the more research I do the more I agree with your statements on orals. But, if I started mine on andros I may as well do it to the best of my abilities and finish it properly. But you guys have been majorly helpful in questions I’ve had and other threads I’ve read, so thank you both!

 

[Matthersby]

To be fair, it IS quite expensive. Definitely won’t be dropping this much in the near future. But just graduated college, and got a damn good paying job that allows me to save for my future and mess around with some toys. Also, I’m running it on a cut to try to recomp as much as possible. I’m down 9.6 lbs in 4 weeks and my strength numbers are still there. Haven’t measured BF% yet to get an idea of where I stand from my start, but I’d imagine I’m dropping some. As long as it does what I want, and I get someplace closer to where I want to be then it works for me. Haha all in all, the more research I do the more I agree with your statements on orals. But, if I started mine on andros I may as well do it to the best of my abilities and finish it properly. But you guys have been majorly helpful in questions I’ve had and other threads I’ve read, so thank you both!

There’s also transdermal aas now too. My ugl has great stuff you can just rub on your skin, get amazing gains for 2 months, eat some Clomid for 4-6 weeks, DONE. No pain, no pip, no gyno, no liver issues whatsoever.

Go for steroids after this. They are illegal, no one cares, and that the only thing bad about them. And they are way cheaper, safer(ish) and 100x more effective than non methyl PHs these days.

 

[Afi140]

There’s also transdermal aas now too. My ugl has great stuff you can just rub on your skin, get amazing gains for 2 months, eat some Clomid for 4-6 weeks, DONE. No pain, no pip, no gyno, no liver issues whatsoever.

Go for steroids after this. They are illegal, no one cares, and that the only thing bad about them. And they are way cheaper, safer(ish) and 100x more effective than non methyl PHs these days.

So many issues in this statement but to each his own. I will address some of the inaccuracies.

-TD steroids avoid the liver for the first pass but still have potential to do damage, just not as much as many methylated orals.

-Steroids from an UGL are definitely not safer than andro prohormones, especially if you use a reputable brand. You run a very substantial risk of running bunk material and/or different compounds not on the label.

-UGL steroids are not 100x more potent than andros.

-Lastly, there are plenty of people who care about steroid usage and the fact that they’re illegal. Cops, military personnel, certain jobs, are just a few (not including family and significant others).

Again, you do you; I take zero issue with people who use steroids but I had to address some of those statements.

 

[Matthersby]

I will address some of the inaccuracies.

Oh please do.

-TD steroids avoid the liver for the first pass but still have potential to do damage, just not as much as many methylated orals.

Nope. Everything, whether they make 1st pass, 2nd pass, 27th pass through the liver ... doesn’t matter if they are oral, eye drops, IM, SubQ, sublingual, can be taken every 2 hours for the next 100 years without liver damage occurring.
What matters is if they are
C17-alpha alkylated. That’s all. Steroids that ARE NOT methylated, the route of administration makes next to no difference. What you are talking about’s toxicity is about as toxic as apple cider vinegar.

-Steroids from an UGL are definitely not safer than andro prohormones, especially if you use a reputable brand. You run a very substantial risk of running bunk material and/or different compounds not on the label

Wow, you’re going downhill here, fast. Reputable fitness supplements?!?! Best yet here. That’s coming from the same reputable companies that actually SOLD us steroids as a “workout enhancer” or “pre workout supp” from 2001-2016. Oh ya! Fitness supplement companies also discovered the geranium seed to extract and make amphetamine for our pre workouts. Only they never did. They just took some gack dope and fucked with the carbon positions in their lab and made a great Adderall-like stimulant with no testing or researched long term side effects. Real fucking safe.
Remind me, how much does fda monitoring happens at underground steroid labs vs fitness supplement companies?
Reputable in the bodybuilding world means a lot of dudes used their stuff for a lot of years and didn’t die. Whether it’s Epiadrohardfinaplexx1200 or just trenbolone. Personally I know exactly what Tren will do at low or high doses, every single ugl I that I know buys the same exact raws from the same 5-6 Chinese compounding pharmacies and labs overseas and then they brew it here. Simple.
I have no idea what Epiandrohardfinaplexx1200 does or converts to. Maybe 16% DHEA converted yielding me with a great product that will increase almost nothing for $179.99

-UGL steroids are not 100x more potent than andros.
I won’t even argue that one because it’s too funny. And it’s actually true. You’re right, Andros are a big deal and they are so strong I’m sure they are next on the chopping block with the fda since there’s been some pro baseball guys batting .690 that admitted to taking them.

-Lastly, there are plenty of people who care about steroid usage and the fact that they’re illegal. Cops, military personnel, certain jobs, are just a few (not including family and significant others).

I’m just going to stop you right there....
Cops and military???????
Cops and military?!?!?! Wild stab, you’ve never done either of these jobs. Besides working military police on Air Force bases for 2 years before I went to Army medic school, I ended up working civilian trauma in EMS . Paramedic and hospital. I knew every Tempe AZ fire dept and PD by name by the end of 2006. (And a few detectives that are always busy and never come around )
The amount of steroids that LE and military use is staggering. It’s almost encouraged or at least overlooked when you’re talking about senior enlisted. My staff sergeant McNeil and I use to see Deca and Test to Everyone. It got so busy, we were taking trips to Mexico every weekend. And I used to talk cycles with and fire or Pd that was suddenly bulking up fast. (Before body cameras of course) I’d say in the total 9 years in trauma and military LE(where we did months and months of training with civilian Pd - who more than just a few times fessed up to use and even offered sources when asked)

Again, you do you; I take zero issue with people who use steroids but I had to address some of those statements.


Thanks for addressing, I’ve readdressed how you still have a lot to learn. All sounds good on paper of course but I’d say 85-90% wrong.

 

[Afi140]

I will address some of the inaccuracies.

Oh please do.

-TD steroids avoid the liver for the first pass but still have potential to do damage, just not as much as many methylated orals.

Nope. Everything, whether they make 1st pass, 2nd pass, 27th pass through the liver ... doesn’t matter if they are oral, eye drops, IM, SubQ, sublingual, can be taken every 2 hours for the next 100 years without liver damage occurring.
What matters is if they are
C17-alpha alkylated. That’s all. Steroids that ARE NOT methylated, the route of administration makes next to no difference. What you are talking about’s toxicity is about as toxic as apple cider vinegar.

-Steroids from an UGL are definitely not safer than andro prohormones, especially if you use a reputable brand. You run a very substantial risk of running bunk material and/or different compounds not on the label

Wow, you’re going downhill here, fast. Reputable fitness supplements?!?! Best yet here. That’s coming from the same reputable companies that actually SOLD us steroids as a “workout enhancer” or “pre workout supp” from 2001-2016. Oh ya! Fitness supplement companies also discovered the geranium seed to extract and make amphetamine for our pre workouts. Only they never did. They just took some gack dope and fucked with the carbon positions in their lab and made a great Adderall-like stimulant with no testing or researched long term side effects. Real fucking safe.
Remind me, how much does fda monitoring happens at underground steroid labs vs fitness supplement companies?
Reputable in the bodybuilding world means a lot of dudes used their stuff for a lot of years and didn’t die. Whether it’s Epiadrohardfinaplexx1200 or just trenbolone. Personally I know exactly what Tren will do at low or high doses, every single ugl I that I know buys the same exact raws from the same 5-6 Chinese compounding pharmacies and labs overseas and then they brew it here. Simple.
I have no idea what Epiandrohardfinaplexx1200 does or converts to. Maybe 16% DHEA converted yielding me with a great product that will increase almost nothing for $179.99

-UGL steroids are not 100x more potent than andros.
I won’t even argue that one because it’s too funny. And it’s actually true. You’re right, Andros are a big deal and they are so strong I’m sure they are next on the chopping block with the fda since there’s been some pro baseball guys batting .690 that admitted to taking them.

-Lastly, there are plenty of people who care about steroid usage and the fact that they’re illegal. Cops, military personnel, certain jobs, are just a few (not including family and significant others).

I’m just going to stop you right there....
Cops and military???????
Cops and military?!?!?! Wild stab, you’ve never done either of these jobs. Besides working military police on Air Force bases for 2 years before I went to Army medic school, I ended up working civilian trauma in EMS . Paramedic and hospital. I knew every Tempe AZ fire dept and PD by name by the end of 2006. (And a few detectives that are always busy and never come around )
The amount of steroids that LE and military use is staggering. It’s almost encouraged or at least overlooked when you’re talking about senior enlisted. My staff sergeant McNeil and I use to see Deca and Test to Everyone. It got so busy, we were taking trips to Mexico every weekend. And I used to talk cycles with and fire or Pd that was suddenly bulking up fast. (Before body cameras of course) I’d say in the total 9 years in trauma and military LE(where we did months and months of training with civilian Pd - who more than just a few times fessed up to use and even offered sources when asked)

Again, you do you; I take zero issue with people who use steroids but I had to address some of those statements.


Thanks for addressing, I’ve readdressed how you still have a lot to learn. All sounds good on paper of course but I’d say 85-90% wrong.

Lol. Smh. I don’t do internet fights. Do you.

 

[Mathb33]

Lol. Smh. I don’t do internet fights. Do you

Well you came at him like you had to "address" his ridiculous statements yet you added no evidence whatsoever and most of what you said made no sense at all. Can’t really shake your head that he came at you this way lol

 

[Afi140]

Well you came at him like you had to "address" his ridiculous statements yet you added no evidence and most of what you said made no sense at all. Can’t really shake your head that he came at you this way lol

I am smh at his statements. I will address some of his inaccuracies but I am not doing a back and forth all day. Hopefully that will be sufficient for you.

If the published andro study showed 8lbs of lean muscle in well trained athletes in a 4 week study then his contention would make his “stronger” hormones have the ability to put on 800lbs of lean muscle in 4 weeks. He said “100x stronger”.....Oh ok, that’s an accurate statement See study for reference

Prohormone supplement 3β-hydroxy-5α-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health - PubMed

Prohormone supplements (PS) are recognized not to impart anabolic or ergogenic effects in men, but the research supporting these conclusions is dated. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act was amended in 2004 to classify androstenedione and 17 additional anabolic compounds as controlled substances...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

-he claims you can take any non-methylated oral every 2 hours until the end of time. Go ahead and take an 800mg ibuprofen every two hours and see how it works out for you. It’s not methylated. Here you go (yes I know it’s very rare for ibuprofen specifically but you can also apply this to fat loss supplements or many other medications and their relationship to fatty liver disease)

A Rare Case of Ibuprofen-induced Acute Liver Injury

Idiosyncratic drug-induced liver injury (iDILI) is the second-most-common cause of acute liver injury. When it is caused by ibuprofen, it is quite rare, especially when not accompanied by systemic signs or symptoms. A young female patient presented with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

*here is another study that is just for fat loss supplements and induced liver damage*

Supplement-Induced Liver Injury

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

-yes plenty of people get away with using steroids without issue. However, to claim “no one cares” which you stated is 100% wrong. Here’s some evidence to refute your claim.

“The use of steroids is a short-term gain for long-term problems that individuals are going to have, and we cannot tolerate them in any way, shape or form,” said Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the Army’s vice chief of staff, who has taken a leadership role in Army efforts to reduce drug use among soldier

Steroid use on the rise in the Army

An investigation last year at Joint Base Lewis-McChord uncovered illegal use of steroids among soldiers bound for Afghanistan, and offers a rare look at what surveys indicate is a rising use of these drugs within the military.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Mathb33]

Omg you’re a lost case

 

[Bintherduntht]

I will address some of the inaccuracies.

Oh please do.

-TD steroids avoid the liver for the first pass but still have potential to do damage, just not as much as many methylated orals.

Nope. Everything, whether they make 1st pass, 2nd pass, 27th pass through the liver ... doesn’t matter if they are oral, eye drops, IM, SubQ, sublingual, can be taken every 2 hours for the next 100 years without liver damage occurring.
What matters is if they are
C17-alpha alkylated. That’s all. Steroids that ARE NOT methylated, the route of administration makes next to no difference. What you are talking about’s toxicity is about as toxic as apple cider vinegar.

-Steroids from an UGL are definitely not safer than andro prohormones, especially if you use a reputable brand. You run a very substantial risk of running bunk material and/or different compounds not on the label

Wow, you’re going downhill here, fast. Reputable fitness supplements?!?! Best yet here. That’s coming from the same reputable companies that actually SOLD us steroids as a “workout enhancer” or “pre workout supp” from 2001-2016. Oh ya! Fitness supplement companies also discovered the geranium seed to extract and make amphetamine for our pre workouts. Only they never did. They just took some gack dope and fucked with the carbon positions in their lab and made a great Adderall-like stimulant with no testing or researched long term side effects. Real fucking safe.
Remind me, how much does fda monitoring happens at underground steroid labs vs fitness supplement companies?
Reputable in the bodybuilding world means a lot of dudes used their stuff for a lot of years and didn’t die. Whether it’s Epiadrohardfinaplexx1200 or just trenbolone. Personally I know exactly what Tren will do at low or high doses, every single ugl I that I know buys the same exact raws from the same 5-6 Chinese compounding pharmacies and labs overseas and then they brew it here. Simple.
I have no idea what Epiandrohardfinaplexx1200 does or converts to. Maybe 16% DHEA converted yielding me with a great product that will increase almost nothing for $179.99

-UGL steroids are not 100x more potent than andros.
I won’t even argue that one because it’s too funny. And it’s actually true. You’re right, Andros are a big deal and they are so strong I’m sure they are next on the chopping block with the fda since there’s been some pro baseball guys batting .690 that admitted to taking them.

-Lastly, there are plenty of people who care about steroid usage and the fact that they’re illegal. Cops, military personnel, certain jobs, are just a few (not including family and significant others).

I’m just going to stop you right there....
Cops and military???????
Cops and military?!?!?! Wild stab, you’ve never done either of these jobs. Besides working military police on Air Force bases for 2 years before I went to Army medic school, I ended up working civilian trauma in EMS . Paramedic and hospital. I knew every Tempe AZ fire dept and PD by name by the end of 2006. (And a few detectives that are always busy and never come around )
The amount of steroids that LE and military use is staggering. It’s almost encouraged or at least overlooked when you’re talking about senior enlisted. My staff sergeant McNeil and I use to see Deca and Test to Everyone. It got so busy, we were taking trips to Mexico every weekend. And I used to talk cycles with and fire or Pd that was suddenly bulking up fast. (Before body cameras of course) I’d say in the total 9 years in trauma and military LE(where we did months and months of training with civilian Pd - who more than just a few times fessed up to use and even offered sources when asked)

Again, you do you; I take zero issue with people who use steroids but I had to address some of those statements.


Thanks for addressing, I’ve readdressed how you still have a lot to learn. All sounds good on paper of course but I’d say 85-90% wrong.

Well I can definitely confirm the Military and police thing lol. I was raised by sheriffs and spent 5 years in the army. I'd say at least half of cops are on the juice. No their Captains probably don't care. And military does do drug tests, but not for steroids I don't think they are looking for those.

I think the other guy was saying the ones that aren't liver toxic may be toxic in other places of the body?

About the UGL roids, you can get fake stuff(I have. Was really PO'd because I kept shooting it and nothing...) Or you can get dirty shet that can f u up and cause necrosis of the skin. I saw pics of a guy who got dirty Tren... Good lord the horror. Where he injected the bacteria ate huge wholes in him. His fat was exposed and I'm thinking why the hell did he wait that long to go to the doc? I can post the pic... It might be too graphic though.

Both of you made good points

 

[Bintherduntht]

OP I was going to say Ostarine... I'm on it now for the first time. I posted a thread about it. It's good stuff that works, but the guys here are saying it causes liver issues and if you already have liver issues then that wouldn't work.

Creatine does work. Injectable test would bypass the liver. Its absorbed through the muscle. But I'm not sure if that is a good route either. You do one cycle and you come off, lose some gains, lose some confidence, and miss the "on" feeling. That's what got me hooked now I'm 8 years in the game. If I could go back... Lol

 

[Tsteele60]

OP I was going to say Ostarine... I'm on it now for the first time. I posted a thread about it. It's good stuff that works, but the guys here are saying it causes liver issues and if you already have liver issues then that wouldn't work.

Creatine does work. Injectable test would bypass the liver. Its absorbed through the muscle. But I'm not sure if that is a good route either. You do one cycle and you come off, lose some gains, lose some confidence, and miss the "on" feeling. That's what got me hooked now I'm 8 years in the game. If I could go back... Lol

Not to be mean, but I laugh everytime somebody equates creatine with steroid talk. I am sure there's more that goes into it, but I just find it funny. Also, IMO soldiers who want to take stuff should. I have family members and friends in the Marine Corps. and Seals, and doing the stuff they do they should have every right to be "enhanced." Broadly speaking, regardless of which country everyone is located within, wouldn't you want the very best of the best to risk their lives fighting for your rights and country? Just a different perspective to throw out there since I can't comment on any of the above

 

[Bintherduntht]

Not to be mean, but I laugh everytime somebody equates creatine with steroid talk. I am sure there's more that goes into it, but I just find it funny. Also, IMO soldiers who want to take stuff should. I have family members and friends in the Marine Corps. and Seals, and doing the stuff they do they should have every right to be "enhanced." Broadly speaking, regardless of which country everyone is located within, wouldn't you want the very best of the best to risk their lives fighting for your rights and country? Just a different perspective to throw out there since I can't comment on any of the above

I just mentioned creatine in lieu of steroids or sarms. Either that or staying natural. I did not say creatine will give steroid like effects.

I knew guys in the military who took juice, and guys who did not. I did not see a difference in there work performance. But sure marines and infantry why not. You don't need roided up POGs though lol.

They used to give speed to the troops back in WW2 I believe..

 

[Tsteele60]

I just mentioned creatine in lieu of steroids or sarms. Either that or staying natural. I did not say creatine will give steroid like effects.

I knew guys in the military who took juice, and guys who did not. I did not see a difference in there work performance. But sure marines and infantry why not. You don't need roided up POGs though lol.

They used to give speed to the troops back in WW2 I believe..

I know man, I just find it funny and I'm glad you didn't take it offensively.

EXACTLY haha. Couldn't agree more.

I believe you are correct, or at least pilots from what I can remember from my aero-engineering history

 

[Bintherduntht]

Not to be mean, but I laugh everytime somebody equates creatine with steroid talk. I am sure there's more that goes into it, but I just find it funny. Also, IMO soldiers who want to take stuff should. I have family members and friends in the Marine Corps. and Seals, and doing the stuff they do they should have every right to be "enhanced." Broadly speaking, regardless of which country everyone is located within, wouldn't you want the very best of the best to risk their lives fighting for your rights and country? Just a different perspective to throw out there since I can't comment on any of the above

My younger brother was force recon in the marines and him and all his buddies juiced. I don't think there sargeants cared though

 

[Matthersby]

I am smh at his statements. I will address some of his inaccuracies but I am not doing a back and forth all day. Hopefully that will be sufficient for you.

If the published andro study showed 8lbs of lean muscle in well trained athletes in a 4 week study then his contention would make his “stronger” hormones have the ability to put on 800lbs of lean muscle in 4 weeks. He said “100x stronger”.....Oh ok, that’s an accurate statement See study for reference

Prohormone supplement 3β-hydroxy-5α-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health - PubMed

Prohormone supplements (PS) are recognized not to impart anabolic or ergogenic effects in men, but the research supporting these conclusions is dated. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act was amended in 2004 to classify androstenedione and 17 additional anabolic compounds as controlled substances...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

-he claims you can take any non-methylated oral every 2 hours until the end of time. Go ahead and take an 800mg ibuprofen every two hours and see how it works out for you. It’s not methylated. Here you go (yes I know it’s very rare for ibuprofen specifically but you can also apply this to fat loss supplements or many other medications and their relationship to fatty liver disease)

A Rare Case of Ibuprofen-induced Acute Liver Injury

Idiosyncratic drug-induced liver injury (iDILI) is the second-most-common cause of acute liver injury. When it is caused by ibuprofen, it is quite rare, especially when not accompanied by systemic signs or symptoms. A young female patient presented with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

*here is another study that is just for fat loss supplements and induced liver damage*

Supplement-Induced Liver Injury

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

-yes plenty of people get away with using steroids without issue. However, to claim “no one cares” which you stated is 100% wrong. Here’s some evidence to refute your claim.

“The use of steroids is a short-term gain for long-term problems that individuals are going to have, and we cannot tolerate them in any way, shape or form,” said Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the Army’s vice chief of staff, who has taken a leadership role in Army efforts to reduce drug use among soldier

Steroid use on the rise in the Army

An investigation last year at Joint Base Lewis-McChord uncovered illegal use of steroids among soldiers bound for Afghanistan, and offers a rare look at what surveys indicate is a rising use of these drugs within the military.

www.seattletimes.com

-Ibuprofen causes kidney damage either through large doses or long durations.
We were talking about liver-toxic oral steroids I thought. Find an obscure article somewhere but you aren’t going to outdo me. And for only one reason: I shut the **** up around here and never act like I’m the authority on anything. I’m humble enough to learn daily.
But when some doofus comes along as says they’re going to address my inaccuracies that hasn’t spent one day working in these fields as a professional. That’ makes you someone who knows nothing about what you’re talking about, and scrambling for an pubmed article doesn’t mean ****. I spent 6 months every day on med-surg helping a doc find documented cases of certain hepatoxic occurrences. About 11 years in dialysis alone, and 5 years total working or training in the emergency room. Guess how many steroid/ph/fitness supplememt/designer steroid/whatever caused someone to go into full liver failure or or damaged any organ. Or really even had any issue whatsoever besides a little BP and anxiety. ONE. I saw one guy who took too much clenbuterol come into the ER.



Please Stop.
The Army Vice Chief of Staff implemented no new ways to curb steroid use other than a PR statement.

Just keep on learning.

You’re not ready to come out with your guns blazing: Andro cycle and tell people YOU know what the **** you’re talking about. Because you don’t. You’ve done some reading. That’s it.
I know it’ll take along time, but discontinuing these pubmed articles would be a good start for you.
Otherwise you’re going to be 3 weeks into your EpiAndrofinaplexx12000 and you’re going to swear you have Lupus and testicular cancer, all stressed out because you’ll be googling frantically and telling guys that they are a high clot risk and need to discontinue their Anadrol cycle even though they have a decade of experience using Anadrol and labs to put their mind at ease.

 

[Bintherduntht]

I know man, I just find it funny and I'm glad you didn't take it offensively.

EXACTLY haha. Couldn't agree more.

I believe you are correct, or at least pilots from what I can remember from my aero-engineering history

I would want my military to be on juice though yea lol I agree

 

[Matthersby]

Lol. Smh. I don’t do internet fights. Do you.

I don’t lol. But I do get awful curious why guys create a “hey please help me pick a drug that does XYZ? Pretty please!?

And then we spend the time giving you ideas and even better; prodding you to get the real reasons why you are defunding to be so limited in what you will run. How many paragraphs did I spend trying to get more info from you so we could find a more effective drug and maybe alleviate some of your concerns about gyno and needles and grey/black market PED’s. This is to help you bc you are paying stupid prices for those products and they are a snoozefest. You can easily use more effective drugs, but you have yet to tell us why you won’t pin, why you won’t purchase grey or black market, and why decades of gyno control won’t work for you.
Answer those and we could do so much better for you.
But NO, your dumb ass wants to argue what causes more liver or kidney problems with someone that has a decade more experience in healthcare as well as 5 years of school for the same.
Why?
We could give you a great recommend that’s not $200 Andro and $200 11-oxo.
But you can’t even address the what we needed for you.
This is what millennials do.
Ask for some advice or guidance.
We ask questions to gather more info to give better advice.
They refuse out of entitlement and stubbornness
They they argue how vast their knowledge is with you.
Why even ask in the first place?

 

[Afi140]

I think you’re confused. I didn’t ask for any help and this thread wasn’t started by me.

 

[Matthersby]

I think you’re confused. I didn’t ask for any help and this thread wasn’t started by me.

Oh. Then my apologies.
I don’t know everything. And I’ll never presume to tell people I do know everything. I just don’t believe much I read or hear. I want to gain experience and see for myself.
Forum jargon is annoying and has been happening for so long. You’ll get so many guys scared to run nolvadex while they are running Deca and they don’t even know why half the time.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Afi140]

Amen bro

 

[Mathb33]

@Afi140 how many steroids cycle, injectables, aas etc do you have under your belt? I’m curious

 

[netflixNchill]

I know Enhanced Formulations is currently having a BOGO on all their Prohormones; might want to check their selection out