A Legend Returns...an epic Morry Log NPP/Masteron/TNE/Test/Tren Xtreme

[MakaveliThaDon]

Any pain in that TNE injection?

 

[BarbellBeast]

I agree with the above. YOU need to eat more morry.. Stop worrying about the girly figure and get yo weight up son! Lets see morry at 220

 

[pillsRgood]

Why no complex carbs?

 

[morry]

Good call on eating something with that Tren-Xtreme.......it requires it. You can't starve yourself and expect strength gains.......or any gains for that matter. Eat.......eat sensibly......but eat!!

And you know that Test-Cyp ain't kickin' yet.........it takes up to 4 weeks or slightly longer to truly be kicking.
What you're experiencing is the NPP and the TNE rearing their frightful heads!!

I wish you had some more TNE or at least a little Prop to take for the next couple of weeks.
But that Tren-Xtreme will be kicking for you regardless.

Thunder

Agreed on the diet. It was a much needed modification.

On to the test cyp and TNE.
(Estimates)
Test cyp half life: 8 days
TNE: 39 hours (very recent study, used to be thought of as shorter)

Using the half life equation and factoring in ester weight, my body has metabolized roughly 200 mg test cyp and 91mg TNE.

By my next cyp pin, that will be 455 mg which is slightly above the 600 mg test cyp desired level. Meaning ill have hit stable levels by day 8 and be a third of the way there by day 4. This is why I frontloaded so heavy (1.3 grams in first week) and chose 37.5 of TNE per day.

That being said, you have a boat load more of experience than me. What are your thoughts with a frontload keeping half life and ester weight in mind?

 

[thundergod]

Agreed on the diet. It was a much needed modification.

On to the test cyp and TNE.
(Estimates)
Test cyp half life: 8 days
TNE: 39 hours (very recent study, used to be thought of as shorter)

Using the half life equation and factoring in ester weight, my body has metabolized roughly 200 mg test cyp and 91mg TNE.

By my next cyp pin, that will be 455 mg which is slightly above the 600 mg test cyp desired level. Meaning ill have hit stable levels by day 8 and be a third of the way there by day 4. This is why I frontloaded so heavy (1.3 grams in first week) and chose 37.5 of TNE per day.

That being said, you have a boat load more of experience than me. What are your thoughts with a frontload keeping half life and ester weight in mind?

Even though the half-life of Cyp is around 8 days, that doesn't mean that you will start realizing and experiencing the gains from it at day 8. Search the boards.......most all users testify that they don't really "feel" Cyp or Enanthate truly kicking in until around week 4 or so. I know it's true for me. Now if you had been cruising Cyp at a lower dose, you wouldn't have this wait time. You would feel the increased dosages the very first week.

On a similar note, you know that D-Bol's half-life is around 6 hours.......that does NOT mean you will start seeing gains from it that quick.
It's takes about 2 weeks to start seeing and feeling the effects.

Even the TNE takes about a week to start feeling its effects in the gym......and bedroom. ha ha But once it gets revved up, you can feel the dosage you pin about 1.5 to 2 hours......pretty quick stuff.


And you know this...........mayne!! lol

 

[morry]

Even though the half-life of Cyp is around 8 days, that doesn't mean that you will start realizing and experiencing the gains from it at day 8. Search the boards.......most all users testify that they don't really "feel" Cyp or Enanthate truly kicking in until around week 4 or so. I know it's true for me. Now if you had been cruising Cyp at a lower dose, you wouldn't have this wait time. You would feel the increased dosages the very first week.

On a similar note, you know that D-Bol's half-life is around 6 hours.......that does NOT mean you will start seeing gains from it that quick.
It's takes about 2 weeks to start seeing and feeling the effects.

Even the TNE takes about a week to start feeling its effects in the gym......and bedroom. ha ha But once it gets revved up, you can feel the dosage you pin about 1.5 to 2 hours......pretty quick stuff.

And you know this...........mayne!! lol

Well said.

The stuff I've read let me know front loading decreased this time to 4-8 days. I'm not saying you aren't right bc I'm certain you are. I'm just looking to understand.
Frontloading with double the dosage still means it will be week 3 or 4 before I start to feel it?
Either way, thank god I had TNE and Xtreme.

 

[morry]

IN THEORY, frontloading makes perfect sense. In reality, i am not sure if it works or not. I frontloaded my current cycle but i never get that "feeling" of being on or off so without drawing blood, i simply don't know. I would like to see a half way decent study on frontloading where the user gets blood results every 3 days for about 2 weeks or so... Hell, i would probably even fund it. I would do it myself but I am already midway through cycle. There are soooo many rumors about frontloading, we should write science and not bro science. A study like this would be perfect.
That being said, Nandrolone is also more anabolic than test on paper. But we know that most people experience better gains through test than nandrolone. Again, I want to run a frontload study. Many people would benefit from it. Anyone interested, PM me.

You and I both.

 

[morry]

Any pain in that TNE injection?

Nope. Micronized and suspended in oil. Smooth as butter. Putting it in the delt too.

 

[morry]

I agree with the above. YOU need to eat more morry.. Stop worrying about the girly figure and get yo weight up son! Lets see morry at 220

I know, I know. No more, I swear. 220, Jesus!!! Maybe tho....

 

[morry]

Why no complex carbs?

Primal mayne.

 

[thundergod]

Well said.

The stuff I've read let me know front loading decreased this time to 4-8 days. I'm not saying you aren't right bc I'm certain you are. I'm just looking to understand.
Frontloading with double the dosage still means it will be week 3 or 4 before I start to feel it?
Either way, thank god I had TNE and Xtreme.

I'm not 100% sold on the philosophy of the front-load.....not with long esters anyway.

It may decrease wait time some........maybe a week. But I sincerely doubt that one can speed up the efficacy of gear simply by using more.
To me it means that when it does kick (still at around week 3) it will be more powerful since you're using greater dosages.

If ones wants to see quicker gains and faster effects, one should incorporate the shorter esters like Prop or no esters at all like TNE.

This doesn't mean that there's no sense in front-loading.
Hel, I blast and cruise and yet when I start a new blast, I'll employ higher dosages those first few weeks in order to see gains.

 

[EasyEJL]

I think overall using an extra x ml to frontload doesn't partcularly give better results than using those ml at the end.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

Where was this recent study of the half life of TNE being 39 hours? Now that I would be interested to read...

 

[morry]

I think overall using an extra x ml to frontload doesn't partcularly give better results than using those ml at the end.

It's not about better results necessarily, it is about decreasing time to stable blood levels which MAY be beneficial for results.

TG is right tho. The jury is out....

 

[thundergod]

Where was this recent study of the half life of TNE being 39 hours? Now that I would be interested to read...

He mentioned that this TNE is oil-based........therefore taking longer to break down. I'm still guessing that water-based TNE will have a shorter half-life and kick in quicker.

 

[thundergod]

It's not about better results necessarily, it is about decreasing time to stable blood levels which MAY be beneficial for results.

TG is right tho. The jury is out....

Not necessarily saying I'm right. I'm just trying to use some logic is all. ha ha

Really though, it makes perfect sense to me to front-load with short-esters only......or no esters at all like TNE and tren-suspensions.

I think good front-loaders would include:
Test-Prop
TNE (test no ester)
Tren-suspension
Tren-Ace
Test-Ace
Mast-Prop
NPP (nandrolone phenly-propionate)
Winstrol

 

[morry]

View attachment 43159

Where was this recent study of the half life of TNE being 39 hours? Now that I would be interested to read...

It is done on horses bro.

Very little research is actually done on human with AAS unless they have cancer or AIDS.


LINK TO THE STUDY ABOVE!!!

 

[morry]

Not necessarily saying I'm right. I'm just trying to use some logic is all. ha ha

Nah, bro. right in the respect that I think it will be hard to tell. Experience is key is what I'm saying and you've got it brother.

 

[MrKleen73]

Good call on eating something with that Tren-Xtreme.......it requires it. You can't starve yourself and expect strength gains.......or any gains for that matter. Eat.......eat sensibly......but eat!!


And you know that Test-Cyp ain't kickin' yet.........it takes up to 4 weeks or slightly longer to truly be kicking.
What you're experiencing is the NPP and the TNE rearing their frightful heads!!

I wish you had some more TNE or at least a little Prop to take for the next couple of weeks.
But that Tren-Xtreme will be kicking for you regardless.


Thunder

Thunder isn't the half life of Cyp 2 weeks, shouldn't he feel some effects before then like aggression, alpha male, increased drive and libido, just not any noticeable gains or much strength from it? I assume that is what you mean. You definitely know more about the subject so asking not correcting.

Morry sorry for the absence...
I somehow didn't get a notification on this thread until today. Kind of weird, was wondering why it hadn't been updated considering how many of us are following it.

 

[MrKleen73]

Thunder isn't the half life of Cyp 2 weeks, shouldn't he feel some effects before then like aggression, alpha male, increased drive and libido, just not any noticeable gains or much strength from it? I assume that is what you mean. You definitely know more about the subject so asking not correcting.

Morry sorry for the absence...
I somehow didn't get a notification on this thread until today. Kind of weird, was wondering why it hadn't been updated considering how many of us are following it.

Never mind I stepped away from the computer to work and then hit reply when i got back. Now I see all of this has been discussed at length.

 

[chocolatemilk]

my bad for not replying to ur pm morry... haven't found much time to get on... late sub... got some reading to do

 

[EasyEJL]

It's not about better results necessarily, it is about decreasing time to stable blood levels which MAY be beneficial for results.

TG is right tho. The jury is out....

hmmm but even in that case, frontloading with 1g on a total cycle of 500mg/wk for 12 weeks vs saving that 1g for 2 extra weeks at the end to make 14 weeks still has you at stable blood levels longer wouldn't it?

I'll agree that using some prop the first 2-4 weeks isn't a bad way to go about it though.

 

[chocolatemilk]

morry I noticed you're not using serms. im the same way.

i also don't workout week 1 of PCT and in week 2 i do resistance band training only for muscle pumps. I also up my calories by a little.

for the average natural joe working out will spike cortisol levels and through resting testosterone will kick in and its effects will outweigh the cortisol effects

for the steroid user in the first weeks of PCT... letting cortisol levels rise by lifting hard and heavy like you're still "on" in the presence of low testosterone will just eat your muscle away imo

that has been my experience after a few PCT's

 

[ScottyDoc]

its funny you said that... my last cycle, i didn't work out much the first 2 weeks of pct then worked out moderately for the last 2 and i kept my gains better that cycle than any other cycle... hmm... you might be on to something.

I agree.... "Ahaaa...ahaaa...ahaaa!"

 

[thetinyguy]

morry I noticed you're not using serms. im the same way.

i also don't workout week 1 of PCT and in week 2 i do resistance band training only for muscle pumps. I also up my calories by a little.

for the average natural joe working out will spike cortisol levels and through resting testosterone will kick in and its effects will outweigh the cortisol effects

for the steroid user in the first weeks of PCT... letting cortisol levels rise by lifting hard and heavy like you're still "on" in the presence of low testosterone will just eat your muscle away imo

that has been my experience after a few PCT's

That's very interesting, is that the case all the time though? I mean you hear some people training hard during PCT but keep their gains or most of them? I never thought of it that way good post.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

morry I noticed you're not using serms. im the same way.

i also don't workout week 1 of PCT and in week 2 i do resistance band training only for muscle pumps. I also up my calories by a little.

for the average natural joe working out will spike cortisol levels and through resting testosterone will kick in and its effects will outweigh the cortisol effects

for the steroid user in the first weeks of PCT... letting cortisol levels rise by lifting hard and heavy like you're still "on" in the presence of low testosterone will just eat your muscle away imo

that has been my experience after a few PCT's

:goodpost: Good input bro, testosterone inhibits the adrenals from producing cortisol, thus lowering cortisol output.

 

[xFRACTION]

love the discussion gentleman

 

[Meister]

This is the way Morry operates. I would say his logs are very close to science. They would be perfect for research. His OCD is our gain!!

This log looks like it is going to be a great benefit for me and the AM community. Greatly Appreciative!!!

 

[morry]

Front loading, SERMS and cortisol

Thunder isn't the half life of Cyp 2 weeks, shouldn't he feel some effects before then like aggression, alpha male, increased drive and libido, just not any noticeable gains or much strength from it? I assume that is what you mean. You definitely know more about the subject so asking not correcting.

Morry sorry for the absence...
I somehow didn't get a notification on this thread until today. Kind of weird, was wondering why it hadn't been updated considering how many of us are following it.

No worries brotha. I knew you'd be around.

I believe the half life of cyp is 8 days on average.

hmmm but even in that case, frontloading with 1g on a total cycle of 500mg/wk for 12 weeks vs saving that 1g for 2 extra weeks at the end to make 14 weeks still has you at stable blood levels longer wouldn't it?

I'll agree that using some prop the first 2-4 weeks isn't a bad way to go about it though.

I see the logic, but here is what I'm thinking. First off there isn't enough research to find out for sure. All we have is our experiences, but here is what I'm thinking.

TG is on to the right idea. I think I'm confusing the subjects. There is a difference between blood plasma levels and AR saturation resulting in increased muscle growth and other telltale signs that elevated Test (or other AAS) are present. I think I will "feel" the cyp much sooner bc I did front load. Check out a chart showing how long it can take to get blood levels up to 500mg a week. I believe it is 8 weeks. So just from my thoughts, I'd say if most guys start to feel it at weeks 3 and 4, then you have to have an increasing saturation of the receptors for 3 or 4 weeks of around 250 mg to start "feeling" it. The problem with this generalization is the saturation is hardly linear. Regardless of being able to pinpoint it, according to half life, I'll have stable levels of 600 mg (I'm counting the ester) by next week. Now if it takes another week of that level for the receptors to start causing enough change that I feel a noticeable different, then that's it. I saved myself a week.
I think saying only short esters is worth front loading may just mean it is "easier" to frontload these bc the short half lives. The way I understand the esters are they deteriorate at a linear, predictable manner. So at hour one, the ester starts to deteriorate at a molecular level, right? So the more molecules, the more free test is released every hour that passes. The way I think some people perceive this is no matter how much you pin, you cannot increase the amount of test being released bc the ester releases all at once. The problem I see with this is I believe the molecules each have their own ester attached and cleave releasing the test slowly. The more molecules, the more test.
The way I see it, it isn't like a hose pouring water that only a certain amount of water can pass regardless, I think the more test cyp the bigger the hose altogether allowing more water to pass. The diameter of the "hose" is dependent on the dose. Is that a stupid analogy?

Shorter esters have less weight releasing more test faster, right? So frontloading these would have a much greater effect than a longer ester. Less to cleave, more test to metabolize. This is going to put more test in the system faster and in turn saturating the the receptors and causing the effects we all love from hormones.

Now I can't prove any of this. I just spent all day thinking about it and this is what I came up with. What are the thoughts swirling around?

morry I noticed you're not using serms. im the same way.

i also don't workout week 1 of PCT and in week 2 i do resistance band training only for muscle pumps. I also up my calories by a little.

for the average natural joe working out will spike cortisol levels and through resting testosterone will kick in and its effects will outweigh the cortisol effects

for the steroid user in the first weeks of PCT... letting cortisol levels rise by lifting hard and heavy like you're still "on" in the presence of low testosterone will just eat your muscle away imo

that has been my experience after a few PCT's

CM, I knew you would show up when you had time. Welcome and thank you for contributing.

I totally agree with the NO SERM approach. I'm not saying it doesn't work for guys bc plenty report it does. Here is my thinking tho. SERMS are selective estrogen receptor modulators, right? Well the fact is they are seen as estrogens in the body, they just don't "act" like estrogen. The body combats this thinking there isn't enough estrogen, produces more aromatase and in turn estrogen. Now you have tons and tons of estrogen in your body when you stop taking it, not good IMO. Plus all that estrogen could have stayed test. What about an AI? AI only keep estrogen from be created through aromatase, right? So your body combats this by creating more and more aromatase. When you get off an AI all that aromatase is still floating and causes that common rebound effect you hear from AIs like letro. Letro does increase endogenous test by keeping it from converting, but as soon as you stop taking it, that increase is your enemy. What about aromasin? It permanently inactivates aromatase? Now there's a thought. Your body combats this by producing more endogenous test. It can't convert without aromatase. The aromatase cannot be freed back up once aromasin attaches to it. So you are tricking your body into producing more test, a slight amount of estrogen (bc aromasin is not as powerful of an AI as letro) and allowing the levels to stabilize more naturally and slowly. This is why I don't use serms. Everytime I have I end up having some estro related issue. Using a negative feedback mechanism has worked well for me.

The cortisol theory I like. That is very insightful. maybe I'll take some time off the first week of PCT and put this to my own test

That's very interesting, is that the case all the time though? I mean you hear some people training hard during PCT but keep their gains or most of them? I never thought of it that way good post.

I think this is going to be individually specific. Were these guys taking anti cortisol supps? How was their insulin sensitivity? Did the hop on to SARMS right after? Were they taking peptides? Are they one of the lucky ones to get their test levels back quick enough they don't really "lose" a ton of their gains?
I didn't take a week of but I was on S1, CJC 1295, aromasin, and test boosters. I was also on HCG during my cycle.

:goodpost: Good input bro, testosterone inhibits the adrenals from producing cortisol, thus lowering cortisol output.

Agreed, CM is the man.

love the discussion gentleman

I'm digging this sh1t too. You guys got me thinking. Probably too much, but fock it, right?

 

[morry]

Day 5

weight 202 (+5)

Legs/ Arms

I pinned 100 mg NPP this morning. Still taking 90 mg of Xtreme divided into two doses. Pinned TNE, 37.5 about 2 hours before workout.

I ate plenty today. I'll leave it at that

I was worried about my lower back, so at lunch today I stopped in and grabbed a belt. I finally own a weight belt. I didn't want to have to wear one so I could put as much stress on my body without any extra help, but honestly, I feel stupid now. i should have gotten one a long time ago. They freaking rock. I said I wasn't going to Squat? Ha! I did, not real heavy but I did. Plus I had a murderous workout. 10 min HISS before and after and then this workout

Circuit 1

Squats 135x10, 225x10, 225x10, 225x10
Ez bar Curls 70x8, 70x 8, 70x6
Skull Crushers 70x12, 70x10, 70x10
Closed grip bench with the EZ bar 70x12, 70x10, 70x10

1 warm up set, 3 regular sets

Circuit 2

Tricep extension 110x10, 110x8, 110x9
Tricep Pull downs 110x8, 110x7, 110x5
Calf Raises 110x14, 120x12, 120x11
Hammer Bicep Curls with DB 40x11, 40x10, 40x8
Lunges (holding 50db in each hand) x10, x10, x9

Circuit 3

Hammer Grip Pullups (BW +45) x8, x6, x5
Hamstring Curls (don't remember the weight, I rarely use this machine but may start using it more) x 12, x12, x12
Leg Extensions, the whole machine, x12, x12, x12

Circuit 4

Leg Press 3ppsx20, 5ppsx20, 5ppsx16
Dips (BW+45) x9, x10, x9 (chest was still tight from yesterday
Preacher Curls DB, 40x10, x9, x9


I hit the cardio at the end and wasn't really all that tired. i could have worked out longer, but I had been there just under 2 hours. It was time to go and eat some dinner. I ate a huge dinner and I'm rested. I'm meeting a friend in the morning to hit back and shoulders again. I'm not sure if I'll go running or not. I have been on the weekends, but we'll see. I most likely will run on Sunday.

No pin of NPP or Test C tomorrow.

I'll pin the rest of the TNE though and take the Xtreme as I have been. Took some letro tonight, still low, low dose. No tenderness from the TNE.

Everything is going as well as can be expected. Upping cals def made a huge difference. I wasn't starving myself by any means. i was eating a ton of food, but in two meals. With all the anabolics though, it wasn't nearly enough. If I had to guess, I'm getting around 4000 cals a day, maybe a little more.

Can't wait to tear up some more weights tomorrow.


Morry

 

[TheKanezzi]

Late, but subbed! Kill it morry

 

[Lightweight1]

In late thought the other log was this one :lol:... I want to hear more about this no serm pct stuff. Has anyone else tried it, or have any articles on it ?

 

[xFRACTION]

In late thought the other log was this one :lol:... I want to hear more about this no serm pct stuff. Has anyone else tried it, or have any articles on it ?

I know russianstar always advocated no serm pct, using peptides and natural stuff

 

[Punisher88]

This has definitely been my favorite thread so far. Just when you think you understand all the basics, you become adhered to different approaches and theories to benefit all. Keep up the good work Morry, and thanks for logging this!

 

[RickRock13]

I'm loving all the discussion in here. A lot of good knowledge and info floating around. I may learn a thing or two in this Morry thread just like his last one

 

[pillsRgood]

I like the week off idea after cycle, first week of pct...good info in this thread for sure... Keep killing it morry

 

[schwellington]

bout time u got a belt you slut

keep killin it

 

[morry]

+10 cool points for upping calories. you need this!!

Yes! Now I'm one of the cool kids. I'm going to pee in my pants bc all that's what all the cool kids do.

In late thought the other log was this one ... I want to hear more about this no serm pct stuff. Has anyone else tried it, or have any articles on it ?

More you say? No problem! Here is a 4 week log. Enjoy

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/172300-morrys-effin-pct.html

I know russianstar always advocated no serm pct, using peptides and natural stuff

I've read some of his article. Pretty smart dude IMO. I think he is discounted though bc his ties with a peptide company. I didn't know he an advocate for no SERM PCT. Learn something new everyday.

This has definitely been my favorite thread so far. Just when you think you understand all the basics, you become adhered to different approaches and theories to benefit all. Keep up the good work Morry, and thanks for logging this!

Man, I really appreciate that. I think we all learn the more we interact and discuss. Let's keep the questions rolling in and I'll keep logging this mofo. Thanks for reading and contributing my friend.

I'm loving all the discussion in here. A lot of good knowledge and info floating around. I may learn a thing or two in this Morry thread just like his last one

You and me both! I'm going to keep calling you RippedRock from now on. Rick doesn't do you justice brotha. I hope we all learn a bit. I know I have already dove in deeper with my research and constant reading. I'm lovin it.

I like the week off idea after cycle, first week of pct...good info in this thread for sure... Keep killing it morry

Me too. I'm seriously considering trying this, but I'm not sure. I get all wrapped up into working out when I drop below 10%bf. We'll see.....

bout time u got a belt you slut

keep killin it

Articulate and to the point. Nice.

I will

 

[morry]

Day 6

weight 201 (+4)

Back / Shoulders

No pin of Test c or NPP. Last pin of Suspension today as well. It was around 45mg. Also 90 mg of Xtreme pre-workout (I went to the gym in the AM so I took it all at once). I didn't experience any lethargy from taking all the Xtreme at once. I sort of expected to, but it never came. I was pretty happy about it, but honestly I was going to make myself hit cardio if I was tired which always wakes me right up.

Weight belt, weight belt, weight belt. You are my only friend. Where have you been all this time? I'm really loving this thing. It makes my back feel like I'm 23 or 24 again.

I was going to shy away from heavy DLs as just 275 aggravated a tendon in the lower lumbar region. With the weight belt being so successful yesterday, I decided to push the envelope a bit.

DL 135x10, 225x12, 275x8, 295x5, 325x5

I could have gone up more, but I was already so happy with this, why push more? With the weight belt forcing my core to pull all the stress off my lower back, I'm thinking going up 20-40lbs a week is sufficient without running the risk of micro tearing a muscle that will lead to a hernia. 325 was good this week. I'm thinking I'll top out at 365 next. I'm not sure yet though, I'll need to see how my back is feeling. After these, however, I had ZERO pain, no cramping, nothing it the lower back. It was pretty focking awesome considering this is the most weight I've done since my injury. Also no pain during the entire workout. I've been wearing a back brace at the house when it would start to ache, but I haven't even needed to do that since I got the weight belt.

I pressed the 90 DB military today too. It was nice to feel that weight above my head again. I was only able to grab 3, but I still got them with good form. Bc some focker took the bench I was using during my circuit, I moved to BB military with 135 with a double negative count. These got my delts just pumping like crazy. This circuit finished off with face pulls with a 24 or 32 kg kettle ball (I don't remember which one I grabbed, but the rep range only got up to 10).

I won't list my entire circuits, but I'll just mention a few lifts.

Shrugs with 315 x 8, x6, x6 (well 5.5, last one kind of sucked :lol, but the most weight I've done since my injury

Wide grip pull up, BWx10, x8, x6

One armed, bent of row with a 90 DB, x8, x8, x7, most weight I've done since my injury

1/2 clean with a military press BB 90x5, x5, x5 (I used to be able to do 135 on these. Not sure why I'm down so low in weight. I tried 135 and was only able to grab one. Maybe it is the way I'm switching up my routine bc my delts were already throbbing by the time I got to my 4th circuit and these are the last things I do for my shoulders).

All in all I'm very happy with the workout. Being able to lift heavy on DLs and Squats is really going to help my muscles bounce back quicker. Those exercises have just given me such a solid foundation that when i can't do them heavy, I feel like I'm lagging behind. I know there are plenty of guys that avoid them due to injury and that is understandable as there are alternatives to these that will make you strong as fock. That being said, if you are avoiding them bc you hate them or think you will injure yourself, I would say you are selling yourself short. Get somebody to watch your form, grab a weight belt, and lift decently heavy. You'll be surprised the overall benefits. Plus the release of all the hormones that your body pushes out when you lift with your whole body is another set of benefits. I attribute my core to these two exercise. Everything else I consider ancillary(draw bridges, WODs, machine weighted crunches, ab pull downs). I'm not saying they are unimportant, but that they contribute little to the overall size relative to DLs and Squats. I'm lucky that my core is one of my strong points. I'm unlucky that my biceps aren't

I pin 100mg NPP tomorrow. Also taking caber tomorrow. Letro today and only one more day of letro, then I'll be switching to Exemstane.

Still feeling pretty good throughout the workouts. I'm not getting tired and going from exercise to exercise should be wearing me out, but it isn't. I did 10 min of high intensity steady state before and after the workout. Now that I'm out of the TNE, we'll see how next week's lineup holds up to this weeks. I'll still be taking the XTREME but I'm hoping the feel good feeling of some extra anabolics begins taking hold. My pumps aren't crazy yet, they are good, but not what I've felt before. Honestly, though I think it is still too early to make a good judgement on the pumps.


Morry

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

awesome workout bro, those DB military numbers are huge! Your body is going to thank you for switching over to aromasin. It's the only AI I'll ever touch after trying it, unless I need to blast away some gyno asap with letro. What dose of caber are you going to be running?

 

[morry]

Day 7

weight 202 (+5)

Today is rest. I haven't gone running today and I'm not sure I will. I'm not all that sore from this weeks workouts, but I know my body would appreciate a day of from the insanity.

I pinned 100 mg NPP. Took caber. Last dose of Letro today too. I also took half the Xtreme and will take the other half tonight. Usually I divide it up 1/3 in the AM and 2/3 preworkout, but since I won't be hitting the weights today, half and half will work just fine. With such a short half life, blood levels should be pretty steady now.

Tomorrow is Chest/Abs. I also pin 300mg of Test C.

T3 will be starting early next week as well.

POSSIBLE CHANGE IN PLAN

With all of this talk about front loading and what not, I've been thinking of switching a few things around.

On week 4, pinning 2 grams of test, then week 5 on will remain at 1 gram till week 10. This should get the levels up faster and is based of the theory that frontloading this with double the dose of the sought after blood level will effectively reduce the wait time from 3 weeks down to a week.

Then on week 5 instead of just pinning 200 mg of Masteron EOD and upping the NPP to 150, I'm thinking of doing this:

Week 5, 1.15 grams masteron, then 200 EOD from there on out to 12
750 mg of NPP, then 150mg from there on out to 12

This would mean that weeks 11 and 12 I won't be increasing the dose. I don't think it would be worth it to do so that late in the game anyhow.

Doing things this way, I'll get a solid 8 weeks of masteron at a dosage that should rip me to shreds. Then upping NPP and Test will help the gains just blow the eff up.

What do you guys think? Am I off my rocker? I've done a lot of research and the only drawback I can see is all the anabolics that will hit in week 5 and 6. As long as the side effects aren't too bad, I'll be fine. I've taken Var without any DHT side effects. My max dose on the was around 700mg a week. 1.15 grams of masteron shouldn't cause me much trouble. I'm not genetically predisposed for male pattern baldness. I'm 28 and still have hair as thick as it was when I was 15. Even if the masteron thins it out a bit, I can afford it temporarily. Ha ha.
The only other thing I can think of is just to keep an eye on blood pressure and make sure I increase my Hawthorne berry dosage accordingly.
I'm not worried about the aggression bc I found on my last cycle that the test gave me a calmness I'm not used to. I def felt alpha male, but I didn't feel the need to boast it. I honestly felt like I handled a few situations that could have turned out ugly, much better than I would have if I was off cycle. I hope this proves to be true in this cycle too bc I'm going to end up putting several grams of anabolics in me between week 4 and 5 (week 4 will be 3.17 grams, then week 5 will be 2.95 grams). After that, though it will level off to between 2.05 grams and 2.4 grams depending on if there are 4 pins of the props or 3. The most I ever got up to my last cycle was about 1.9 grams and that was only my last two weeks. This is going to get really fun

 

[morry]

awesome workout bro, those DB military numbers are huge! Your body is going to thank you for switching over to aromasin. It's the only AI I'll ever touch after trying it, unless I need to blast away some gyno asap with letro. What dose of caber are you going to be running?

Thx man. I was a little disappointed that my bench got swiped, but i still fried the delts. I was able to hit the bills, but I think I'm a few weeks off from that.

Agreed! Aromasin is the sh1t. The only reason I'm using it was the TNE. Last time I used TNE with aromasin it simply wasn't powerful enough to stop the test from aromatizing so heavily. It was a trade off. I wanted to kick start with TNE, but I knew that I could only do this with letro around. I don't think a week at a very low dose really hurt things enough to offset the benefits from TNE.

Caber is .5mg E3D. This is what I've used in the past and it worked very well.

 

[RickRock13]

90 lb DB militarys!!.....damn Morry! That is beast right there brotha! Very nice!

 

[morry]

^^^bumping for that discussion.

I think we've touched on some of it, but I hadn't tossed out I may switch up the dosages at weeks 4 and 5.

 

[thetinyguy]

Sick workout man, This thread has so much info i'm taking notes!

 

[MrKleen73]

Unfortunately I don't have any input on the discussion. Honestly pretty much decided I am back to all natty after the last run on PH's I did. Maybe a DHEA product like Dermacrine or Transaderm, but that is it. However your logs will make it hard to do. Haha! It is hard not to get sucked into the amazing gains and transformations you have as well as a few others on this board who do it right.

 

[morry]

Unfortunately I don't have any input on the discussion. Honestly pretty much decided I am back to all natty after the last run on PH's I did. Maybe a DHEA product like Dermacrine or Transaderm, but that is it. However your logs will make it hard to do. Haha! It is hard not to get sucked into the amazing gains and transformations you have as well as a few others on this board who do it right.

I hear ya. You're doing quite well all natty as it is. I don't think I'd have went with AAS if I didn't have a good understanding of my body and fitness thereof. Check out the post below, I did some digging on the frontloading issue

 

[mich29]

I'd say if it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[morry]

Front loading Research

Here is what I found while I was researching. All very interesting information. See what you think.


Reference first:
Schulte-Beerbuhl M et al., Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate or testosterone cypionate. Fertility and Sterility (1980) 33.2 : 201-203.


Nankin HR, Hormone kinetics after intramuscular testosterone cypionate. Fertility and Sterility (1987) Jun; 47.6 : 1004-1009.


Wijnand HP et al., Pharmacokinetic parameters of nandrolone decanoate to healthy volunteers. Acta Endocrinol Suppl (Copenh) (1985) 271 : 19-30.
---------------------------------------
A guy over on cuttingedgemuscle under the handle blade put the first two graphs together based off of data he gathered from the above sources.

View attachment 43245


The esters separated


View attachment 43247

The one below can be found at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2829578/


It was a study of IM injections of oestrodial (animal study, not human). The EB is a benzonate ester the ECP is a cypionate ester

View attachment 43246

Additionally from AHFS drug information 2004. McEvoy GK, ed. Testosterone. Bethesda, MD: American Society of Health-System Pharmacists; 2004:2925-32.

"Cypionate and enanthate esters of testosterone are absorbed slowly from the lipid tissue phase at the IM injection site,achieving peak serum concentrations about 72 hours after IM injection"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So what the eff does all this mean? I have some other post I'd like to put in here, but quickly what I'm getting from this is the peak concentrations of IM hormone injections with esters happen within 72 hours of the pin regardless of the ester. Notice, however, the difference in the short and long long esters. The shorter esters have a much steeper curve indicating a much larger dose of the hormone being metabolized. The longer esters have a much less steep of a curve indicating the need for repeat doses to achieve a blood plasma level that is high enough to elicit a noticeable physiological response.
This explains why props are noticeable within days. The ester is short with a steep curve and you pin EOD restarting the curve before the distribution of the first dose is so low the physiological response stop continuing a high level of hormones and in turn quickening the responses that we all feel or call "kicking in" Just what TG said, if you front load a prop, it is going to be noticeable very, very quickly.


The long esters, however, take an incredible amount of time to get up to the same level and stay there. The only way around this is to front load the dose. You have to front load it all on the first day as well to be most effective. I always thought the longer duration that the ester was in the body the more hormone was released, but that is obviously exactly the opposite of what happens. See the example below using a standard 500mg per week cycle.

Standard cycle of 500mgs per week :


Week 1- 500mg used........After 7 days 250mg left - so active test delivered in that wk 250mg


Week 2 - 500mg used.......+ 250mg (left over) = 750mg - test active for that wk = 375mg


Week 3 - 500mg used.......+375mg (left over)= 875mg - test active for that wk=437.5mg


Week 4 - 500mg used........+437.5mg(left over)=937.5mg - test active for that wk=488.7mg


Week 5 - 500mg used........+488.7mg(left over)=988.7mg - test active for that wk=494.3mg


Week 6 - 500mg used........+494.3mg(left over)=994.3mg - test active for that wk=497.1mg


Week 7 - 500mg used........+497.1mg(left over)=997.1- test active for that week=498.5mg


And so on...............


Takes 7 weeks to get the full weekly dose of 500mgs


250mg in the first wk
375mg in the second wk
437.5mg in the third wk
488.7mg in the fourth wk
494.3mg in the fifth wk
497.1mg in the sixth wk
498.5mg in the seventh wk

Now what if you front loaded the same cycle?

Front loaded cycle of 500mg per week:


Week 1 - 1000mg used.......After 7 days 500mg left - so active test delivered in that 1st week 500mg....bingo!!!!
Then back to the normal dose of 500mg per wk, job done!


By the end of the first week you will achieve the peak dose as opposed to the 7th wk of a cycle not front loaded, 1 wk or 7 wks for peak blood levels? no argument really, you will have the benefit of the gear kicking straight away,without doubt this is an excellent way to achieve your goals and get the full strength of the gear kicking striaght away, remember the body grows at its best when its fresh which is noramally at the start of a cycle, cut the whole length down of the cycle and front load it, less time shutdown, faster stable blood levels at peak dosage, results straight from the start, reason why many stay on cycle for many wks is because of when the gear starts to kick fully so why not cut the length down which will cut the time down for shutdown, with front load no need to stay on for so long,


Long esters and short esters can be used when front loading, long esters work better and should be doubled during the first wk of the cycle and the short esters should be doubled on the first day of the cycle but not that much in it tho!, this is due to the half life of short esters, a easier way around this would be - if you implement the rule of - with every standard dose you inject double each time you jab until you reach the first half life, this will ensure you wont go over the required amount and this will hit your peak blood levels in the first week, no unstable levels and straight away in the first wk you will be running the required amount,


Many like this method and many prefer kickstarting the front end of the cycle with an oral I would say try them both and see which one you respond best to, I would advise anybody who likes running the standard length of cycle with long esters to try this method it may just change the way you cycle in the future.

One more article that covers front loading, recovery and how and when to use short esters to your greatest advantage.

If you are planning a 10 week cycle, the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible.


If you use a long ester such as deca at xmg/week, it will take you 4-5 weeks to build up to max blood concentrations possible for xmg/week. So half of your cycle is not wasted, but you are not maximizing efficiency.


When coming off a cycle, the waiting period before clomid therapy begins will vary depending on the type and dose of the AAS. If you ran 500mg/week of deca for 10 weeks, a month after your last shot, you will still have around 200mg of esterified deca in your system. This is more than enough to prevent recovery. This is the reason why recovery is more difficult with a deca (or another long acting ester).


Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca. Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5 week half life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system


E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.


Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.


1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain


after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.


After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.




Most guys go with "time on=time off." This will not work with long esters as I have demonstrated above. For at least a month after your last shot you are in what I call a "time in-effiency" period where you are no longer reaping the benefits of you AAS but you are not recovering either. The goal of the modern cycle is to minimize this wasted time.


The key components are:
1) Front end loading this cuts down on wasted time in the beginning of your cycle waiting for the doses to reach full theraputic levels. This concept has been used before but (as far as I know) I was the first one to quantify it mathmatically. Zyg has taken the math one step further with a graph showing, visually, the importance. Graph of eq loading


The use of orals in the beginning of a cycle is a popular component of a cycle. While I don't feel it is a nessecity, it too is a (different) type of front end load. For the advnaced BBer, dbol should be taken in the beginning of a cycle as well as loading the injectables since the anabolic response from dbol is alleged to be by a different mechanism than most injectables. If one had to chose between a dbol load and and injectable load, in most cases, the injectable load should be prefered over the dbol load.


2) Injection frequency This is crucial to obtaining even blood concentrations of androgens. Ideally, the more often injected, the better. An acceptable rule of thumb is "inject at half of the half life." For instance, if the half life of a steroid is 7 days, this should be injected at least twice weekly. For cycles that involve multiple injectables, the injections should be fractioned out and divided up based on the injectable with the shortest half life. For instance, if you were doing a test propionate and deca cycle, the old school way to do it would be to inject the prop EOD and the deca once a week. Both compounds should not be viewed as separate, but together with total androgen concentration taken into consideration. If you injected the deca only once a week, probably along with one of the propionate injections, that day will have a much larger spike on total blood androgen concentrations. Instead, the deca should be split up and taken with the propionate injections, EOD. This way there is no one day of the week that has a "spike" and even blood concentrations are maintained throughout the week.


3) Ending the cycle Switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle makes perfect sence however not too many guys incorporate this practice- perhaps because of the lack of variety of drugs. The modern cycle should include replacing long ester injectables with shorter ones so that recovery time is made more efficient. The necesity of switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle depends on the type of drugs used. Longer esters such as deca and eq should be replaced with shorter acting versions of these compounds no later than four weeks before the end of a cycle. Medium length esters such as t-enanthate and cypionate should be replaced no later than three weeks before the end of a cycle. A couple examples of appropriate replacements are: trenbolone acetate and testosterone propionate. There is no need to "load" these compounds in the middle of a cycle since 1) they are already "fast acting" and 2) blood androgen concentrations are already high.


4) Recovery With the replacement of the faster acting injectables toward the end of a cycle, the "wasted" time between the end of a cycle and beginning of clomid therapy is reduced. For instance, if 100mg TA is used ED, clomid therapy may begin in as little as 5 days after the last shot. This tremendously impoves time efficiency. clomid therapy usually last for four weeks. An excellent thread posted by The Iron Game describes this in further detail clomid FAQ's .


When the above recomendations are made, your cycle itself is made much more efficient and if recovery time is made more efficient as well, time "off" AAS may very well be reduced so that the overall efficiency of AAS use over time is tremendously improved.


Andy

Until I can prove otherwise, what I believe is def front load all long esters. It will cut the time in half if done correctly.


If you want to feel the props within days, front load those as well.


The formula is quite simple for long ester, just double the weekly dose, pin that the first pin and the second pin the regular amount (so in the case the cycle is 500 mg a week, the first pin would be 1 gram, the second would be 250 mg making the first week intake 1.25 grams).


For a short ester it is a bit more complicated bc the half lives are so different, but to keep things simple I just followed some of the same guide lines for my proposed change.


Front loading is not for first time users. If you haven't taken AAS and you aren't sure how you'll react, it's a bad idea bc if you do get side effects they will last longer. Additionally, at higher doses you are more susceptible to sides. If you've taken them before and want to get the cycle started quickly, front loading is the way to go. No reason to have a 3-4 week waiting period when you could be getting the same results within a couple of weeks. With props this happens in days not a week or two.
So there is a def correlation between blood plasma levels and when an AAS user starts to "feel" it. I know that sounds dumb to say, but most of us would agree it takes 3-4 weeks to feel an ethanate but at least I thought it was that way bc I needed to build up enough over the weeks in order to feel it bc the ester didn't cleave until then. That is simply just false. The ester cleave the MOST at the beginning, the trick is keeping the levels up that high so we start to feel it. Check out the graphs and tell me what you think. All the references I should be available online. I'm almost certain I cited everything. if I missed something, send me a PM, I have a list of where I was researching.


Morry

 

[pillsRgood]

Morry, your thread is revealing to me that I deserve a C in steroid school... Good information in this for sure!