A Conservative for Obama

Fastone

Fastone

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No, its not public record. He's pro-actively concealed the information.

Obama’s Years at Columbia Are a Mystery

He Graduated Without Honors

By ROSS GOLDBERG, Special to the Sun | September 2, 2008

Senator Obama’s life story, from his humble roots, to his rise to Harvard Law School, to his passion as a community organizer in Chicago, has been at the center of his presidential campaign. But one chapter of the tale remains a blank — his education at Columbia College, a place he rarely speaks about and where few people seem to remember him.

Contributing to the mystery is the fact that nobody knows just how well Mr. Obama, unlike Senator McCain and most other major candidates for the past two elections, performed as a student.

The Obama campaign has refused to release his college transcript, despite an academic career that led him to Harvard Law School and, later, to a lecturing position at the University of Chicago. The shroud surrounding his experience at Columbia contrasts with that of other major party nominees since 2000, all whom have eventually released information about their college performance or seen it leaked to the public.

For better or worse, voters have taken an interest in candidates’ grades since 1999, when the New Yorker published President Bush’s transcript at Yale and disclosed that he was a C student. Mr. Bush had never portrayed himself as a brain, but many were surprised to learn the next year that his opponent, Vice President Gore, did not do much better at Harvard despite his intellectual image. When Senator Kerry’s transcript surfaced, reporters found that he actually had a slightly lower average at Yale than Mr. Bush did…

The Obama campaign declined to comment for this article and did not offer an explanation for why his transcript has not been released. But observers speculated that one reason might be the racially charged nature of the election. Mr. Obama has acknowledged benefiting from affirmative action in the past, and details about his academic performance might open him up to critics eager to accuse him, probably unfairly, of receiving a free ride, Mr. Kabaservice said…

In contrast with the rest of Mr. Obama’s life story, little is known about his college experience. He attended Occidental College in Los Angeles for two years before transferring to Columbia in 1981. The move receives only a mention in Mr. Obama’s 1995 memoir, “Dreams from My Father,” which instead devotes that chapter to his impressions of race and class struggles in New York.

An article in a Columbia University publication, Columbia College Today, reported that Mr. Obama has portrayed Columbia as a period of buckling down following a troubled adolescence. He did not socialize much, he has said, instead spending a lot of time in the library, “like a monk.” He has also stated that he was involved to some extent with the Black Students Organization.

Federal law limits the information that Columbia can release about Mr. Obama’s time there. A spokesman for the university, Brian Connolly, confirmed that Mr. Obama spent two years at Columbia College and graduated in 1983 with a major in political science. He did not receive honors, Mr. Connolly said, though specific information on his grades is sealed. A program from the 1983 graduation ceremony lists him as a graduate…

This otherwise commendable article fails to note numerous other questions about Mr. Obama’s academic record. Questions we have repeatedly raised.

For instance, we do not know for certain what Mr. Obama studied in his undergraduate days. He claims he majored in “international affairs,” which seems a bit unlikely for an undergraduate.

And, as the article states, his degree from Columbia is in political science — not international affairs.

Moreover, we do not know why he was accepted into these schools in the first place. Obama himself has suggested he did not have the grades to meet their requirements.

By his own admission, Obama spent his final two years in high school skipping classes, playing basketball, doing cocaine and getting drunk.

Similarly, his admission to Harvard Law school is highly questionable. Where are his LSAT scores? And how does one graduate from Columbia without honors and yet get accepted at Harvard Law?

Lastly, his ascendency to the Presidency of the Harvard Law school would appear to have also been a case of blatant affirmative action, since the student Obama had only written one legal paper — and that was quite short and remarkably undistinguished.

So where are his grade transcripts? So where is the honest and open leadership that Mr. Obama has promised us?





I don't think "he's stayed on task", I think he's playing to his strength. His past is not his strength. He has very little experience and at best questionable ties. Wouldn't you "stay on task" if you were him?



WMDs were not phantom. We found them.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=15918
Phantom link bud, what were the WMD's, the money that Saddam was hording?

:bruce3:
 
Mulletsoldier

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I asked you why you disliked Barack Obama, and in more words you said because he is Muslim; I then proceeded to ask you why Islam is 'bad', and you said:

A polygamyst pederast for a prophet, but, I guess that's ok

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=097_1212607370
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm

http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
http://www.investigativeproject.org/FCNA-CAIR.html
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/24125

oh, and something from just today, even printed in the liberal rag,
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E0DE133CF937A3575BC0A9679C8B63

and 700 years of crusades

what a wonderful, peaceful religion
I did not say Islam was peaceful; in fact, I said Islam tended towards violence, but not evil. Obviously, we must also take into account the socio-historical fabric of the religion itself - that is, the social and historical conditions which the formation of that religion is contingent upon.

At any rate, I see you will now backtrack from your previous position, veiling whatever nonsensical reason you have for your dislike in forced rationality!
 

scotty2

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At any rate, I see you will now backtrack from your previous position, veiling whatever nonsensical reason you have for your dislike in forced rationality!
Yes, I am backpedaling..........I think Farrakhan may have gotten in wrong in reference to "gutter" religions. I get it, guy. You're 22, just graduated college. You're pissed that there's racial and social injustice in this world, and you're gonna fix it. I wish the world could be how you want, but, it's not, sorry.
 
Mulletsoldier

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That was cute! I now understand your logic: You assume I am younger, so therefore your lack of knowledge is now correct!

Maybe - as I seemed to have missed where I stated as such - you could point out for me where I stated anything about righting social wrongs? I merely said you have been speaking out of your ass, and could not know less about what you are saying; my age has nothing to do with that - though, I would assume with yours, you would correct that issue soon!
 

scotty2

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I merely said you have been speaking out of your ass
YEP! Directly from it. I assume you're younger due to the blatant naivete of your logic. If you're older than I think, shame on you even further. Just seems to me, you have 0 life experience, everything regurgitated from a textbook(oops, sorry "primary" source) or some left wing college classroom. But, I'm ignorant, and you're enlightened, so, what do I know.
 
Mulletsoldier

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:rolleyes:

I hate to become too erudite on you, but naivete most often refers to a lack of 'worldliness', 'sophistication' or 'judgement', as opposed to 'lack of direct experience'; however, I learnt that from a 'liberal textbook', so it must be wrong.

Well, if experience is meeting one Muslim in your local bumpkin gym and assuming she/he is representative of an entire religious order, I am blissfully inexperienced!
 
Mulletsoldier

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YEP! Directly from it. I assume you're younger due to the blatant naivete of your logic. If you're older than I think, shame on you even further. Just seems to me, you have 0 life experience, everything regurgitated from a textbook(oops, sorry "primary" source) or some left wing college classroom. But, I'm ignorant, and you're enlightened, so, what do I know.
Let me guess: Blue collar family, the sixty's cultural revolution passed your parents by and you were the disillusioned skeptical result? Big city kid, I assume?

I love to dialogue with extremists such as yourself: Platonic Universals are the law here; all experience is dominant over rational thought "I met a Muslim (X), so all Muslims (Y) must be the same!". Funny, I think that may be a fancy-dancy word I know; ignorant!
 

scotty2

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:rolleyes:

local bumpkin gym and assuming she/he is representative of an entire religious order, I am blissfully inexperienced!
OK, now you can't even read correctly. Laughable. You mean my bumpkin gym in one of the largest, most diverse cities in the world?
 

scotty2

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Let me guess: Blue collar family, the sixty's cultural revolution passed your parents by and you were the disillusioned skeptical result? Big city kid, I assume?

I love to dialogue with extremists such as yourself: Platonic Universals are the law here; all experience is dominant over rational thought "I met a Muslim (X), so all Muslims (Y) must be the same!". Funny, I think that may be a fancy-dancy word I know; ignorant!
My parents were hippies. Close, though. How about a combination of experience and education? I may have a college degree myself, might just be too stupid to even read it.
 
strategicmove

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Didn't Obama go to a church who's pastor of 20 years said during a sermon,

"Not God Bless America, God Damn America!"

......and now somehow people that hate Obama are against America?
Some of you chaps should openly admit you deeply dislike Mr. Obama for personal reasons, and not pretend his policies are what you reject. Besides, I fail to see how your response derives from, or is even remotely related to, the original post in the thread. Personally, I consider the author of that article quite courageous and impressively ideologically open for a hard-core conservative.
 
Mulletsoldier

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OK, now you can't even read correctly. Laughable. You mean my bumpkin gym in one of the largest, most diverse cities in the world?
My parents were hippies. Close, though. How about a combination of experience and education? I may have a college degree myself, might just be too stupid to even read it.
If one continues with sarcasm long enough, some are bound to assume they have the requisite knowledge to endorse their arrogance; unfortunately, I am not one of those individuals.

Qualify: 'Experience'. You obviously assume experience = knowledge; though, in your case, it seems the former precludes you from the latter. On the internet, revealing personal troubles and so forth seems rather irrelevant, but I can assure you my experiences are atypical from most of those I know.

However, you have met one Muslim at your gym, and I am merely an inexperienced hippy-liberal!
 
Mulletsoldier

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Some of you chaps should openly admit you deeply dislike Mr. Obama for personal reasons, and not pretend his policies are what you reject. Besides, I fail to see how your response derives from, or is even remotely related to, the original post in the thread. Personally, I consider the author of that article quite courageous and impressively ideologically open for a hard-core conservative.
Sh, strag; do you not understand scotty2 has met three Muslims, and thereby can elaborate on the tendencies of approximately one-billion people (Obama apparently included) from that broad experential base?
 

scotty2

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If one continues with sarcasm long enough, some are bound to assume they have the requisite knowledge to endorse their arrogance; unfortunately, I am not one of those individuals.

Qualify: 'Experience'. You obviously assume experience = knowledge; though, in your case, it seems the former precludes you from the latter. On the internet, revealing personal troubles and so forth seems rather irrelevant, but I can assure you my experiences are atypical from most of those I know.

However, you have met one Muslim at your gym, and I am merely an inexperienced hippy-liberal!
Lived among for a decade in a neighborhood in Brooklyn called Bay Ridge. The 5 avenue section of Bay Ridge has been affectionately renamed "Bay-root"(get it?)due to it's overwhelming Muslim influence. However, if, in your mind, that does not qualify as requisite experience, I stand corrected, I am inexperienced.

I don't want this to degenerate into insults. I don't think you're a bad person. In fact, I even paid you a compliment in an earlier post(totally overlooked, BTW). We can agree to disagree, sir. IMHO, 10 years of sharing the same space with said people is more than enough of a representative sample.
 
strategicmove

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We always talk of America being the land of opportunity. Is that just a line or is it just for the special few. Barack Obama is only shady to those who don't like him, he's also fact checked more than any person in history. The present John McCain is shady to me.

What did we know of George W. Bush other than his father being a one term president and the failed businesses he ran. He got in anyway and failed another one, the biggest business in the world. Say what you will but this has all happened on his watch. Also, as far as hearing from the so called good arabs, no one really wants to hear from them, that would take away from the fear that the present administration has used to railroad us into where we are right now.

:bruce3:
Awesome post! :goodpost:
 
Mulletsoldier

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Lived among for a decade in a neighborhood in Brooklyn called Bay Ridge. The 5 avenue section of Bay Ridge has been affectionately renamed "Bay-root"(get it?)due to it's overwhelming Muslim influence. However, if, in your mind, that does not qualify as requisite experience, I stand corrected, I am inexperienced.

I don't want this to degenerate into insults. I don't think you're a bad person. In fact, I even paid you a compliment in an earlier post(totally overlooked, BTW). We can agree to disagree, sir. IMHO, 10 years of sharing the same space with said people is more than enough of a representative sample.
I saw the compliment: You stated I had superb syntax! (it was appreciated).

Lately, I have refrained from degenerative discussions - discussions you are alluding to; unfortunately, sarcasm and a diversion away from the issue (i.e., leading away from your stances on Obama's policy to my apparent liberality and inexperience) were starting to pervade the one at hand!

At any rate, I was simply stating that - in my opinion at least - one must take into account an entire 'fabric' of society, such that one sees how religion, politics, socially normative values, emotions and so forth are intrinsically linked with territoriality - that is, 'Muslims' on 5th Ave are surely different from Muslims in Bahrain and so forth.
 
strategicmove

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Great series of posts, Mulletsoldier!
 

scotty2

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'Muslims' on 5th Ave are surely different from Muslims in Bahrain and so forth.
I guess you can say that ad infinitem. Unless you have lived in every country where a Muslim MIGHT reside, how could you possibly ever obtain this experience. 'Muslims' on 5 ave are from all different sects, and countries. For instance, the Saudi Muslims would complain about the Palestinians because the they thought the younger girls dressed like "whores." I am curious as to how much experience with how many different types would be enough experience in your eyes?
 
Mulletsoldier

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I guess you can say that ad infinitem. Unless you have lived in every country where a Muslim MIGHT reside, how could you possibly ever obtain this experience. 'Muslims' on 5 ave are from all different sects, and countries. For instance, the Saudi Muslims would complain about the Palestinians because the they thought the younger girls dressed like "whores." I am curious as to how much experience with how many different types would be enough experience in your eyes?
Once again, you place a primacy on experience such that is the only requisite factor in proper judgment; I would posit the opposite: That proper distinctions are made when one mediates experential knowledge with conceptual knowledge - that is, experience with concepts.

I simply do not feel 'experience' is the ultimate realization of knowledge, and it appears you do. This is all I attempted to elucidate in the first place. Implicit within experience is the problematic you alluded to: "How much experience is enough to extrapolate?". The answer is none; experience will simply never be absolute, and therefore must only be an intermediate in our judgment formation.
 

scotty2

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Once again, you place a primacy on experience such that is the only requisite factor in proper judgment; I would posit the opposite: That proper distinctions are made when one mediates experential knowledge with conceptual knowledge - that is, experience with concepts.

I simply do not feel 'experience' is the ultimate realization of knowledge, and it appears you do. This is all I attempted to elucidate in the first place. Implicit within experience is the problematic you alluded to: "How much experience is enough to extrapolate?". The answer is none; experience will simply never be absolute, and therefore must only be an intermediate in our judgment formation.
Ok, so a decade of living with the subject combined with my education. So, the answer is since I haven't read the qur'an(in full, I have read quite a bit)I just cannot even begin to imagine the full scope that you have apparently mastered. Seems a bit convoluted to me, never ending. If I opened up a different dozen eggs 20 different times, and each time 10 were broken. If you bought the dozen eggs the 21st time and were surprised that 10 were broken, you're mentally challenged. At some point, a logical mind could conceive that maybe, just MAYBE some of what you see, combined with what you've learned, could POSSIBLY be true? Getting a little philosophical here. I wanted to keep it light, this is, afterall, a silly bodybuilding website.:whip:
 
BodyWizard

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He's fact checked more than any person in history? Please, I'd love to see his state senate records, college transcripts, and medical records. Most politicians provide those seemingly innocent documents. Obama has not and continues to resist doing so.
I disagree w/ the suggestion that Obama has been fact-cheked more than anyone in history, but he *has* been plenty fact-checked.

Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need

Not pretending you'll accept that as an unbiased source, but it *does* offer facts -
just because it's not an extreme-'right' blogsite doesn't mean it's completely bogus.

As for college transcripts, all we know about McCain's Annapolis career is his class ranking. Given that he claims to know how to win wars, and knows how to "get bin Laden" - and given that he has no experience in ground warfare, limited combat experience (2 aerial missions only, IIRC), and an apparently shaky grasp of the difference between strategy & tactics, it seems to me that the absence of McCain's college transcripts is much more conspicuous, and disturbing.

Likewise medical records: both candidates have been "less than forthcoming" about their histories, and both should correct their lapses. Of the two, however, McCain's obvious attempt to overwhelm the few reporters allowed access is the more disturbing - because of his age, because of his known history of cancer, but most importantly because of the known psychological & emotional disruptions suffered by survivors of ordeals even less traumatic than his Hanoi captivity.

These questions are both real and pressing - and they are unique to McCain. He should come clean.

I know that to many in the "conservative movement", the election is entirely about Obama, and the less said about McCain, the better; unfortunately, to the voting public at large, they are BOTH UNDER SCRUTINY. McCain's efforts to deflect everything off of himself & onto Obama add up to a big red flag to anyone who's actually trying to weigh the two candidates.

In fairness to McCain, I want to give him props for alienating the "neo-confederate" vote yesterday. I am greatly gratified to see him acting like the honorable man I have long believed him to be. I truly hope to see more real principle replace the posturing that has become so humiliatingly common in recent weeks.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Socialism, Communism, Marxism...............all "concepts", they look great on paper. "Experience" paints a different picture.
I mean this with absolutely no offense, however, you could not have misunderstood my post any deeper.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Ok, so a decade of living with the subject combined with my education. So, the answer is since I haven't read the qur'an(in full, I have read quite a bit)I just cannot even begin to imagine the full scope that you have apparently mastered. Seems a bit convoluted to me, never ending. If I opened up a different dozen eggs 20 different times, and each time 10 were broken. If you bought the dozen eggs the 21st time and were surprised that 10 were broken, you're mentally challenged. At some point, a logical mind could conceive that maybe, just MAYBE some of what you see, combined with what you've learned, could POSSIBLY be true? Getting a little philosophical here. I wanted to keep it light, this is, afterall, a silly bodybuilding website.:whip:
Again, your sarcasm and condescendence is unnecessary; it only lends a sense of incredibility to your posts.

I did not imply your knowledge was worth nothing, but merely that it is not the Absolute in terms of judgment mediation; rather than accept this - most likely out of insecurity or a foregone sense of being an ******* - you continue to make derisive remarks. Why?

At any rate, a LOGICAL mind would realize that a sense of place, of territory, is intrinsically linked with one's behaviour. It does not take a Sociologist or Philosopher to realize people that inhabit different spaces act differently - you cannot come to terms with this? I am beginning to feel this concept is possibly too abstract, or I am explaining it improperly.
 
Fastone

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Socialism, Communism, Marxism...............all "concepts", they look great on paper. "Experience" paints a different picture.
You could for a lot of people add Capitalism to that list. Having grown up during the Communist Scare, I have no love for any of it and having lost close dear friends on 911, I have no love for the fundamentalist muslim. But imo, to hate all based on a concept that they are supposedly linked to is quite narrow and life limiting. Also to hate someone soley based on their name is just ridiculous.

:bruce3:
 
RobInKuwait

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You could for a lot of people add Capitalism to that list. Having grown up during the Communist Scare, I have no love for any of it and having lost close dear friends on 911, I have no love for the fundamentalist muslim. But imo, to hate all based on a concept that they are supposedly linked to is quite narrow and life limiting. Also to hate someone soley based on their name is just ridiculous.

:bruce3:
What's your justification for adding capitalism to that list?
 
RobInKuwait

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I disagree w/ the suggestion that Obama has been fact-cheked more than anyone in history, but he *has* been plenty fact-checked.

Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need

Not pretending you'll accept that as an unbiased source, but it *does* offer facts -
just because it's not an extreme-'right' blogsite doesn't mean it's completely bogus.
Interesting read. It seems odd to me that he wouldn't keep personal records or at least notes of his time in state senate. It seems like it would be useful information during re-elections and for going after opponents....

As for college transcripts, all we know about McCain's Annapolis career is his class ranking. Given that he claims to know how to win wars, and knows how to "get bin Laden" - and given that he has no experience in ground warfare, limited combat experience (2 aerial missions only, IIRC), and an apparently shaky grasp of the difference between strategy & tactics, it seems to me that the absence of McCain's college transcripts is much more conspicuous, and disturbing.
Are you serious? Based upon what? McCain retired as a Captain (O-6) in the Navy. I'm a Captain in the Army (O-3) and I've already had substantial training on the difference between strategy and tactics. If I was an O-6 I would have attended 3-5 more schools which would outline the difference between tactics and strategies.

Obama has no military training....yet you think he could have a better understanding of the difference between strategy and tactics?

Likewise medical records: both candidates have been "less than forthcoming" about their histories, and both should correct their lapses. Of the two, however, McCain's obvious attempt to overwhelm the few reporters allowed access is the more disturbing - because of his age, because of his known history of cancer, but most importantly because of the known psychological & emotional disruptions suffered by survivors of ordeals even less traumatic than his Hanoi captivity.
McCain provided his medical records. I know about the cancer, Obama had an attack ad about McCain's cancer. You bring up PTSD, but there are also psychological and emotional disruptions known to be caused by habitual cocaine users.....its funny how that's almost taboo to talk about, yet McCain's time in a prisoner of war camp 35 years ago is fair game.

These questions are both real and pressing - and they are unique to McCain. He should come clean.

I know that to many in the "conservative movement", the election is entirely about Obama, and the less said about McCain, the better; unfortunately, to the voting public at large, they are BOTH UNDER SCRUTINY. McCain's efforts to deflect everything off of himself & onto Obama add up to a big red flag to anyone who's actually trying to weigh the two candidates.
Please, explain what McCain deflected.

In fairness to McCain, I want to give him props for alienating the "neo-confederate" vote yesterday. I am greatly gratified to see him acting like the honorable man I have long believed him to be. I truly hope to see more real principle replace the posturing that has become so humiliatingly common in recent weeks.
Neo-confederate? Thats a new one.
 
RobInKuwait

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Some of you chaps should openly admit you deeply dislike Mr. Obama for personal reasons, and not pretend his policies are what you reject. Besides, I fail to see how your response derives from, or is even remotely related to, the original post in the thread. Personally, I consider the author of that article quite courageous and impressively ideologically open for a hard-core conservative.
I understand your point of view and the guy in your article's point of view. I definitely think this guy's logic is off base. Just because the quasi conservative president in place expanded government doesn't mean that a super liberal if elected will not. As far as blaming this economic situtation on Bush, I think he is way off base.

McCain is not on my team, Obama is on the team I hate.

Obama's policies are the antithesis of everything I see as right in the world. Compound his policies with a democratic congress who will pass everything without a second thought and it is truly a recipe for disaster.
This is my response from early in this thread that explains exactly why I dislike the policies of BHO and why I feel the article's author was off base.
 

scotty2

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Again, your sarcasm and condescendence is unnecessary; it only lends a sense of incredibility to your posts.

I did not imply your knowledge was worth nothing, but merely that it is not the Absolute in terms of judgment mediation; rather than accept this - most likely out of insecurity or a foregone sense of being an ******* - you continue to make derisive remarks. Why?

At any rate, a LOGICAL mind would realize that a sense of place, of territory, is intrinsically linked with one's behaviour. It does not take a Sociologist or Philosopher to realize people that inhabit different spaces act differently - you cannot come to terms with this? I am beginning to feel this concept is possibly too abstract, or I am explaining it improperly.
Way over my head, it would seem. You talk in absolutes, yet I was judged for doing the same(i.e. all muslims are x). I'm not sure YOU know what you want to say.

My turn to give a definition:
ver·bose (vr-bs)
adj.
Using or containing a great and usually an excessive number of words; wordy.

Less words, more sense, my friend. We know you're bright.
 
Fastone

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McCain provided his medical records. I know about the cancer, Obama had an attack ad about McCain's cancer. You bring up PTSD, but there are also psychological and emotional disruptions known to be caused by habitual cocaine users.....its funny how that's almost taboo to talk about, yet McCain's time in a prisoner of war camp 35 years ago is fair game.

Rob, there you go again ($1 to Ronald regan) I'm not understanding you habitual cocaine user reference. If that is a reference to Obama's admitted FEW times that he did use the drug, you're waaayyyyyyy off. But I'd like to hear your expert analysis of cocaine use

My comment about capitalism referred to folks at the total bottom of the "trickle down"who are hurting very badly right now and what they may be feeling.


:bruce3:
 
Fastone

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McCain provided his medical records. I know about the cancer, Obama had an attack ad about McCain's cancer. You bring up PTSD, but there are also psychological and emotional disruptions known to be caused by habitual cocaine users.....its funny how that's almost taboo to talk about, yet McCain's time in a prisoner of war camp 35 years ago is fair game.

Rob, there you go again ($1 to Ronald regan) I'm not understanding you habitual cocaine user reference. If that is a reference to Obama's admitted FEW times that he did use the drug, you're waaayyyyyyy off. But I'd like to hear your expert analysis of cocaine use

My comment about capitalism referred to folks at the total bottom of the "trickle down"who are hurting very badly right now and what they may be feeling.


:bruce3:
 
RobInKuwait

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McCain provided his medical records. I know about the cancer, Obama had an attack ad about McCain's cancer. You bring up PTSD, but there are also psychological and emotional disruptions known to be caused by habitual cocaine users.....its funny how that's almost taboo to talk about, yet McCain's time in a prisoner of war camp 35 years ago is fair game.

Rob, there you go again ($1 to Ronald regan) I'm not understanding you habitual cocaine user reference. If that is a reference to Obama's admitted FEW times that he did use the drug, you're waaayyyyyyy off. But I'd like to hear your expert analysis of cocaine use

My comment about capitalism referred to folks at the total bottom of the "trickle down"who are hurting very badly right now and what they may be feeling.


:bruce3:
I'm just saying, you're basing the PTSD on speculation based upon the fact that he was a POW. Theres nothing to substantiate that. Why can't I make that same leap with the Obama's admitted cocaine use?

I don't think you can attribute what we have in America today as capitalism. We have at best a mixed economy. Social programs have only made life more difficult for the poor and will continue to do so.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Way over my head, it would seem. You talk in absolutes, yet I was judged for doing the same(i.e. all muslims are x). I'm not sure YOU know what you want to say. .
It would seem. However, I do know what I am communicating; however, thank you for more explicitly showing you do not!

This is the simplest explanation I can give you, and only pray that you follow here.

First, let's run through some terms we are using:

Experience: Experience is limited in scope. I.e., only has a truth-value in terms of what one directly experiences. This is an inadequate measure of what is real (that means, what actually exists) because one cannot experience 'everything'. At some point, what is known as conceptual knowledge (I.e., I have never seen and experienced Los Angeles, but I am aware of its concept, and assume that concept to be valid vis-a-vis other people) must help us to mediate a judgment. I feel here is where you are being lost, or are deliberately ignorant: You have experienced Muslims on fifth-avenue. Since you claim to be so humble and grounded (I.e., inexperienced) in your intellectual approach, one would assume you have common sense enough to realize that Muslims on fifth avenue, and Muslims in Bahrain, have different tendencies.

Now, why is that so? Once again, your common intuition (which is apparently more valid than knowledge?) should tell you people in different places act differently. So, as opposed to mediating (that means to act in between as an independent party) experience and knowledge to form your judgment, you say: "I have met one muslim at my gym + the Muslims in Fifth Avenue, so all Muslims must be transitive!"

Place affects behaviour. Simple enough, I hope.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Comically enough, I have actually helped to legitimize your bigotry through this debate! As I said earlier, though, and as strageticmove reiterated, more respect is to be had from being honest.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Transitive meaning the same relation applies to all variables in a set. A = B, B = C, A = C. Or, in your case, all Muslims being 'bad', because of those you have known on one block.
 

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What if there were Bahranian Muslims on 5 ave? Is that experience discounted as well? If I were married to a whirling dervish from Iran, whose mother was a Sunni Arabia, whose husband was from Pakistan..............We're doing the friggin waltz here, guy. Get the textbook out of your lap, and form an idea of your own, based on something other than your college...ready for this..."EXPERIENCE". Amazing....place affects behavior. I never read that before, not in any sociology 101 or anrhtopolgy class. I always wondered why indigenous Americans(north, central, south)resemble Asians. I also hope you can fill me in on why there were jews spread all over eastern europe. I guess those are in the 2nd chapter.

I also assume that because I know(is it still just the "HOT" muslim chick? Or have I established at least a larger representative sample?)5 ave. Muslims that every Muslim everywhere behaves EXACTLY the way that one/several behaves on 5 ave. Have I gotten your theory correctly? Is THAT what I believe. WOW, I AM stupid!

Again, I don't want to toss insults. Once again, I think you are a good person. IMHO, without actual real life exerience to go along with unbiased education, the education is essentially worthless. I graduated college 11 years ago(you brought it up in an earlier post) with a BA in Psych(and since uyou brought up minors, I was one class shy of a sociology minor). Ironically enough, your argument is one I would be making 11 years ago. I'm sorry if my decade long expeerience is not enough of one in your eyes. However, I am content in thinking I had more than enough. I work with people on a daily basis, many Muslims. I take every individual case by case. If you want to say, ok, Brooklyn Muslims behave that way, you have a rock solid case. I contend that(and if you got to a yellow pages, look for mosque, and zip code 11209)you'll see that there are literally hundreds of mosques for different sects. So, with that in mind, I'm pretty sure that I have enough contact with enough different muslims(non native new yorkers)to form myself an educated opinion. If for you that is not enough, I'm sorry I can't satisfy you. Now I'll send you $5 for a pair of your rose colored glasses:)
 
Mulletsoldier

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What if there were Bahranian Muslims on 5 ave? Is that experience discounted as well? If I were married to a whirling dervish from Iran, whose mother was a Sunni Arabia, whose husband was from Pakistan..............We're doing the friggin waltz here, guy. Get the textbook out of your lap, and form an idea of your own, based on something other than your college...ready for this..."EXPERIENCE". Amazing....place affects behavior. I never read that before, not in any sociology 101 or anrhtopolgy class. I always wondered why indigenous Americans(north, central, south)resemble Asians. I also hope you can fill me in on why there were jews spread all over eastern europe. I guess those are in the 2nd chapter.

I also assume that because I know(is it still just the "HOT" muslim chick? Or have I established at least a larger representative sample?)5 ave. Muslims that every Muslim everywhere behaves EXACTLY the way that one/several behaves on 5 ave. Have I gotten your theory correctly? Is THAT what I believe. WOW, I AM stupid!

Again, I don't want to toss insults. Once again, I think you are a good person. IMHO, without actual real life exerience to go along with unbiased education, the education is essentially worthless. I graduated college 11 years ago(you brought it up in an earlier post) with a BA in Psych(and since uyou brought up minors, I was one class shy of a sociology minor). Ironically enough, your argument is one I would be making 11 years ago. I'm sorry if my decade long expeerience is not enough of one in your eyes. However, I am content in thinking I had more than enough. I work with people on a daily basis, many Muslims. I take every individual case by case. If you want to say, ok, Brooklyn Muslims behave that way, you have a rock solid case. I contend that(and if you got to a yellow pages, look for mosque, and zip code 11209)you'll see that there are literally hundreds of mosques for different sects. So, with that in mind, I'm pretty sure that I have enough contact with enough different muslims(non native new yorkers)to form myself an educated opinion. If for you that is not enough, I'm sorry I can't satisfy you. Now I'll send you $5 for a pair of your rose colored glasses:)
You are funny; do you always contradict yourself so readily? "I do not want to throw insults, though I debate like a child!". Your experience, apparently, has not taught you tact or manners. As I said, I am sure if you capitalize your sad argument, or ridiculous condescendence long enough, somebody here will be naive enough to eat your bullshit. Unfortunately for you, however, that is not me! "Guy", believe me, I have requisite 'life experience' to form qualified decisions, mediated by education; I had seen more strange things than you (most likely) before I could drive, and that I can assure you.

However, as long as we are brining up 'education', I graduated with two degrees - not minors - but rather two degrees, and none of that counts for ****; fact is, you are still wrong, and still deciding to extrapolate from your overly ignorant experience base onto the entire world. Guess what? Neither of my degrees taught me how to pick out inadequate arguments and overzealous 'common sense' users speaking out of their ass - that is/was self-taught.
 
Fastone

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Ok Mullet and Scotty, it's time for you two to go to a special thread. You guys have reached the Verbal Ultimate Fighting (VUF) level :lol::duel: btw, the only mosques in Brooklyn when I lived there (1952-79)were the Eligah Mohammed type.


:bruce3:
 

scotty2

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Guess you got the statistics textbook out, too......keep going back to the ole "extrapolate" well. While you got it out, see if tells you what constitutes a majority. This, Isaac Newton, is not physics. If 50.00000000001% of something is X, that(correct me if I'm wrong)would constitute a majority. No one told me I had to be nice. I have no idea who you are or where you've been. What I do now is that there is a constant reference to basic textbook knowledge. You say you have life experience??? I'll take it for face value, I've readily shared some of mine. You, sir, have not. Simple fact. Oh, and I will now apologize for my overly antagonistic tone towards your posts. I actually enjoy reading your reactions, and they have gotten better and more vehement the more I have antagonized. Sorry. Seriously. Truce.
 

scotty2

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Ok Mullet and Scotty, it's time for you two to go to a special thread. You guys have reached the Verbal Ultimate Fighting (VUF) level :lol::duel: btw, the only mosques in Brooklyn when I lived there (1952-79)were the Eligah Mohammed type.


:bruce3:
Complete infiltration, and total lack of assimilation. Part of my argument. They're nice though:toofunny:
 
Fastone

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Complete infiltration, and total lack of assimilation. Part of my argument. They're nice though:toofunny:
Funny thing is in Union City NJ and some other places, the Cuban and other hispanic communities are looked at the same way as they have taken over whole areas, street signs and all. Makes you feel like you're in a another country. As said on Family Guy "If it weren't for 911, those people would be adorable".

:bruce3:
 
Mulletsoldier

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Guess you got the statistics textbook out, too......keep going back to the ole "extrapolate" well. While you got it out, see if tells you what constitutes a majority. This, Isaac Newton, is not physics. If 50.00000000001% of something is X, that(correct me if I'm wrong)would constitute a majority. No one told me I had to be nice. I have no idea who you are or where you've been. What I do now is that there is a constant reference to basic textbook knowledge. You say you have life experience??? I'll take it for face value, I've readily shared some of mine. You, sir, have not. Simple fact. Oh, and I will now apologize for my overly antagonistic tone towards your posts. I actually enjoy reading your reactions, and they have gotten better and more vehement the more I have antagonized. Sorry. Seriously. Truce.
Okay:

a) I was homeless at 15 for about six months, while using everything from Percs to Codine to DMT to Crack and everything in between.

b) Dealt for quite some time in trafficking, ranging all the 'usual suspects' of organized crime for suppliers.

I assure you, I have met more characters, and been in more desperate circumstances than you assume; therefore, I do feel my 'experience' may stand par-for-par with your apparent knowledge of one city block.

I enjoyed reading yours as well! It was funny to watch you divert at every point!
 

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Don't take any of it personally. I have an innate ability to piss people off with................"Just words" and funny way of manipulating them :)
 
Fastone

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I think we all at some point piss someone off with what we think. The bottom line to me is with all the differences of opinion, I'm glad to live in a country where we can discuss these things in a open forum and have the freedom of expression to say what we truly feel. For me I also feel that I have made some acquaintances with people on this board who I may not agree with but I could sit and have a beer with while we argued.:drunk:

:bruce3:
 
Mulletsoldier

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Don't take any of it personally. I have an innate ability to piss people off with................"Just words" and funny way of manipulating them :)
You are definitely antagonistic, but I wouldn't give yourself too much credit. Internet Forums and Customer Service are part of my job, so I deal with want-to-be Freuds such as yourself daily!
 

scotty2

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You are definitely antagonistic, but I wouldn't give yourself too much credit. Internet Forums and Customer Service are part of my job, so I deal with want-to-be Freuds such as yourself daily!
Freud is a tool. That whole line of rationale is scheisse. My degree is toilet paper. I give credit where credit is due. Thank you.
 

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