New Monster Hormone

[Alpine]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

more like,

Hemmmmmmmmmmmmmungo.

 

[DR.D]

... Apparently the best way to attach the oxygen at 11 is with the use of bacteria. It's harder to make than most stuff. Bacteria will add the oxygen at 11. Methyltest fermented = 11-oxo methyltest. Then add chlorine at 4.

Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!

 

[yeahright]

Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!

Yowza! With that said, assuming this product is what they tried to make it, what would be the projected properties for it?

 

[Alpine]

Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!

Appreciated...

 

[DR.D]

Well, the Vida states that it's over 7x as anabolic as M1T but only 6% as androgenic. Sounds like a winner to me! I'm sure it's dry with 5a-reductase and mild, passive aromatase inhibiting properties. I bet it's a decent cortisol antagonist too. Of course the 11-hydroxy version of this same compound is only 0.3x (or 30%) as strong as M1T which is not that impressive so that makes no sense. There should not be such a large difference in the potencies of these two compounds so one of the reports must be wrong. Regardless if it takes 5 or 60mg as an effective dose, the favorable separation of anabolic and androgenic effects is what makes it a good looking possibility.

 

[rampage jackson]

Wow....that would be something!

 

[same_old]

Well, the Vida states that it's over 7x as anabolic as M1T but only 6% as androgenic. Sounds like a winner to me! I'm sure it's dry with 5a-reductase and mild, passive aromatase inhibiting properties. I bet it's a decent cortisol antagonist too. Of course the 11-hydroxy version of this same compound is only 0.3x (or 30%) as strong as M1T which is not that impressive so that makes no sense. There should not be such a large difference in the potencies of these two compounds so one of the reports must be wrong. Regardless if it takes 5 or 60mg as an effective dose, the favorable separation of anabolic and androgenic effects is what makes it a good looking possibility.

doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?

 

[Popa Murph]

doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?

I'm pretty sure he meant M1T

 

[DeerDeer]

So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.

Rumor is SFR also plans to produce a C17b-carbonate ester version of furazabol (17-alpha-methyl-5-alpha-androsta-2,3-furazan,17b-ol). It will be a non-methyl, non-toxic. This is another thing that IS NOT coming from China.

 

[Alpha-male]

I think me meant to say "MT" as in methyltestosterone, not "M1T". M1T has an anabolic rating of around 900-1600 I think, so if it was M1T then that means that this compound would be 7x as anabolic as M1T. 7 X (900-1600)? I don't think it could be that high.

 

[Alpha-male]

question for DR.D

While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and SD. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.

 

[Mr.50]

Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

Mr.50

While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.

 

[Tom 185]

While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.

i would also like to know how the 2 compare from someone that has experience with both...i love superdrol and epistane seems to be the only thing that may be at the same level in terms of gains (i care about strength more than anything) as of late...

however it does seem to compare closest with anavar from reading the logs

 

[Joint Fracture]

So many compounds, so little liver left.
Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

Hee-hee!

:frustrate :blink:

 

[warnerve]

So many compounds, so little liver left.
Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

Hee-hee!

:frustrate :blink:

Well if you use the sostenol, you'll be using half of these new compounds all at once

 

[same_old]

I'm pretty sure he meant M1T

actually i was being sarcastic - i know for a fact he meant MT, for the reasons Alpha-Male gave. i dont know why he kept saying M1T...anywho

 

[Alpine]

So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.

Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between SD and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.

 

[Tom 185]

Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between superdrol and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I only ran it at 20mg/day. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.

so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

1) epistane
2) superdrol
3) pheraplext

 

[Alpine]

so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

1) epistane
2) superdrol
3) pheraplext

Ya, all things considered. (sides, health, etc.)

It all depends on dose too. Havoc doesn't compare to SD until you hit 30mg/day+ so you have a lot of flexibility. You really cant (shouldn't) run SD over 2-4 weeks. With Epistane, I wouldn't flame someone for going 5-7 (although I wouldnt advise it either ).

Dont forgot H-50 (original). It bloated me a lil but I felt ****ing fantastic on that stuff (sort of like dbol). I would put it up there equal with PP. If I recall I was bulking and eating a **** load of sodium which didnt help (chinese food addict). There is no excuse for a poor diet at any phase but that was fun times. High cals, lil bloated...awesome strength. Lifting is half the fun when dieting IMO.

 

[Tom 185]

yea i never cared to try halodrol

i have tons of SD and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

SD is amazing

right now i am deciding between sd and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well

 

[Alpine]

yea i never cared to try halodrol

i have tons of superdrol and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

SD is amazing

right now i am deciding between superdrol and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well

For me, Epistane has been every bit as hard on hair as PP was. On paper, it is less androgenic though. I had no other androgenic sides. I never really do with these new designers though. All I ever notice is slightly accelerated thinning. I can normally bounce back a lil, but it doesn't help things. I'm prone though... gotta pay to play

 

[DR.D]

doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?

No, I mean M1T. The Vida states it as delta-1-17a-MT. When it's referencing methytest is just says 17a-MT.

 

[wrestler119]

I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?

 

[DR.D]

Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

Mr.50

Yeah, in some studies SD was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.

 

[Mr.50]

Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then SD.

Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

Mr.50

Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.

 

[DR.D]

I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?

It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol

 

[DR.D]

Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then superdrol.

Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

Mr.50

Thank you for the help M50! I've been gone a few days and appreciate it. You explanation was solid my man.

 

[Alpine]

Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.

With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.

 

[DR.D]

With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

Amen to that! The stigma with steroids has gotten crazy. Hoodia's active ingredient is a steroid (that kills appetite) and fenugreek's main active is a steroid (that lowers cholesterol) so are all the capillary protecants, sterols or flavones. There are steroids that improve glucose and insulin tolerance, prevent cell differentiation and promote cancer cell apoptosis, burn fat, protect the prostate, ect, ect.. all good stuff! It's time to quit being so one sided and start studying these compounds again.

 

[b unit]

With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.

all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.

 

[Alpine]

all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.

The common denominator is profitability. Anabolic steroid research pretty much grinded to a halt in the 50's. Social stigmas and an archaic, stagnant medical education systems have kept it that way.

Once the Pharmas start sniffing out a profit again, then we will see new studies and products trickling out.

Schering released a new long ester test "Nebido" specifically for HRT a while back.

NEBIDO contains 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate in a novel formulation. After administration of NEBIDO, testosterone levels remain within the physiological range for approximately 12 weeks.

It was first approved for HRT in Finland in 2003. Indevus licensed U.S. rights to Nebido in July of 2005. They are conducting pharmacokinetic studies they expect to be done in May of this year. It probably wont be available to consumers (eer patients) until next year at best (overly optimistic). Just an example, Stuff takes time...

Eventually we will see inhaled steroids and such (already available with insulin). The demand just isn't large enough yet. HRT in men at around 35-40 will become as common as women receiving HRT now (which is commonplace). Unfortunately, society evolves slower than science.

 

[same_old]

It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol

my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.

but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.

clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?

 

[TeamSavage]

In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

Just keep in mind that when SD first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.

 

[Alpine]

Just keep in mind that when superdrol first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.

True, we need more unrelated 3rd party blood tests ASAP.

Still, BK, PA and others (like Sldge) have commented on the structure all saying things such as "this should be very clean", "less hepatoxic" etc. They didnt really say anything publicly about SD or PP. When you get BK praising Epistane on a public forum it has to be decent. He doesn't normally do that. All he said was "watch the sulfur."

If I didn't buy the hype I would be the first to call BS. Everyone knows how I like to go against the grain. I bought 2 bottles of havoc as soon as it was available out of sheer curiousity. I know one thing, I felt MUCH better on 20mg Epistane than I did on 20mg of SD.

It is almost certainly less harsh than SD. As for PP and so on, that will be hard to tell.

Dr. D was involved with Designer/AX at the time too wasn't he? I believe so... Nobody I have talked about Epistane with had anything to gain from its sale/success.

 

[b unit]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Alpine again.

 

[Sonicology]

and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either.

you might find this thread interesting

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/bioscience-technologies/43966-tst-trn-metabolites.html

especially the part on page two where ALR says

As an example, there is a newer attempt at knocking off the old MTRN product by KS that is no where near correct. Hard to knock off what you do not know how to create yourself.

 

[Alpha-male]

So wait a sec, Dr. D are you saying this new compound is 7x as anabolic as M1T??? Guys look at this post from bpmartyr:

-----------------------------------------------------------

This was reposted over at BBB by MyTMouse. Orig posted at T-M by may1963.

Thought some may like to parouse it.


Compound:------------------------------Androgenic------Anabolic
1-Testosterone--------------------------100------200
Anabolicum Vister(Quinbolone)(oral Boldenone)--50------100
Anadrol 50(Oxymetholone)-------------45------320
Anadur(Nandrolone Hexyloxyphenylpropionate)--37-----125
Anatrofin(Stenbolone Acetate)---------107-144-----267-332
Anavar(Oxandrolone)-------------------24------322-630
Andractim(Dihydrotestosteron)--------30-260-----60-220
Andriol(Testosterone Undecanoate)----100------100
Androderm(Testosterone)---------------100------100
Androgel(Testosterone)------------------100------100
Boldabol(Boldenone Acetate)------------50------100
Cheque Drops(Mibolerone)--------------1,800------4,100
Danocrine(Danazol)----------------------37------125
Deca-Durabolin(Nandrolone Decanoate)--37------125
Deposterona(Testosterone Blend)-------100------100
Dianabol(Methandrostenolone)-----------40-60------90-210
Dimethyltrienolone------------------------10,000+-----10,000+
Dinandrol(Nandrolone Blend)------------37------125
Durabolin(NPP)----------------------------37------125
Dynabol(Nandrolone Cypionate)---------37------125
Equipoise(Boldenone Undecylenate)-----50------100
Esiclene(Formebolone)-------------------No Data Available
Genabol(Norbolethone)-------------------17------350
Halotestin(Fluoxymesterone)------------850------1,900
Hydroxytestosterone---------------------25------65
Laurabolin(Nandrolone Laurate)---------37------125
Madol(Desoxymethyltestosterone)------187------1,200
Masteron(Drostanolone Propionate)-----25-40------62-130
Megagrisevit-Mono(Clostebol Acetate)--25------46
MENT(Methylnortestosterone Acetate)-------650------2,300
Mestanolone--------------------------------78-254------107
Methandriol(Mythelandrostenediol)-------30-60------20-60
Methyl-1-Testosterone---------------------100-220------910-1,600
Methyldienolone----------------------------200-300------1,000
Methylhydroxynandrolone(MHN)----------281------1304
Methyltestosterone-------------------------94-130------115-150
Metribolone(Methyltrienolone)-------------6,000-7,000------12,000-30,000
Miotolan(Furazabol)-------------------------73-94------270-330
Myagen(Bolasterone)-----------------------300------575
Nilevar(Norethandrolone)------------------22-55------100-200
Omnadren(Testosterone Blend)-----------100------100
Orabolin(Ethylestrenol)--------------------20-400------200-400
Oral Turinabol------------------------------None------100+
Oranabol(Oxymesterone)------------------50------330
Orgasteron(Normethandrolone)-----------325-580------110-125
Parabolan(Tren Hexahydrobenzycarbonate)-500------500
Primobolan(Methenolone Acetate)----------44-57------88
Primobolan Depot(Methenolone Enanthate)-44-57------88
Prostanozol------------------------------------n/a------n/a
Protabol(Thiomesterone)--------------------61------456
Proviron(Mesterolone)-----------------------30-40------100-150
Sanabolicum(Nandrolone Cyclohexylpropionate)-37------125
Steranabol Ritardo(Oxabolone Cypionate)--20-60------50-90
Superdrol(Methyldrostanolone)-------------400------20
Sustanon 100 & 250--------------------------100------100
Synovex(Testosterone Propionate & Estradiol)-100------100
Test 400---------------------------------------100------100
Test Enanthate/Cypionate/Propionate/Susp & Blends-100------100
THG(Tetrahydrogestrinone)-------------------No Data Available
Tren Acetate/Enanthate & Blends------------500------500
Winstrol(Stanozolol)---------------------------30------320



-----------------------------------------------------------

Let's say M1T has an anabolic ratio of 1000, then this new compound would have a rating of 7000??? Thats higher than the cheque drops on that list. What do you guys think?

Another question I have is if this is so anabolic then why is it being compared to anavar? What is it that makes a compound produce gains? For instance pheraplex is supposedly more anabolic than superdrol but I think everyone will agree superdrol gives better gains. Does this have something to do with binding afinity?? Sorry if that's the wrong term, I don't have extensive knowledge on human biochemistry. Any input will be appreciated.

 

[Alpha-male]

Also I believe Dr.D has run both SD and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.

 

[mmowry]

Id like to HEAR this also.

 

[DR.D]

Also I believe Dr.D has run both superdrol and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.

Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than SD as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.

SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.

Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for PCT. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.

As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.

 

[Tom 185]

Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than superdrol as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.

SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.

Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for post cycle therapy. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.

As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.

can you rate strength gains 1-10 with each?

superdrol @ 30mg- ?
epistane @ 40mg- ?

and don't forget that you can run epistane longer!

 

[DR.D]

can you rate strength gains 1-10 with each?

superdrol @ 30mg- ?
epistane @ 40mg- ?

and don't forget that you can run epistane longer!

SD @ 30 I'd give a 7
Epi @ 40 I'd give a 9

 

[LakeMountD]

my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.

but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.

clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?

I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.


As for the Superdrol and Epistane comparison, I have run multiple of both too and they definitely feel like two totally different compounds. I believe superdrol to be stronger but PCT after 4 weeks of epistane is incredibly odd, i actually gained a lb after 9 days?! I do believe the percentages are somewhat off. you can see this in the Vida book by looking at some steroids that have multiple tests done on them. Some will say 200% more anabolic than test prop and 20% as androgenic then another test right below it for the same compound will state like 60% as anabolic and 5% as androgenic. I'll try and find you an example.


EDIT: Here is what I mean by the tests not being standardized and the ratios being off, two separate tests by two people yielded a large variation.

 

[same_old]

I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.

so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.

maybe you guys know something i dont...but at 6000x+ the anabolic activity of MT (if interpreted Dr.D's way), this would indeed be a "monster hormone"...and i cant imagine anyone selling it as pills greater than 500mcg each or so....

to add even more bizarre variation to this...Patrick Arnold referenced **DBOL** as the standard when he quoted the relative strength of this Oxygynox product:

There has to be something wrong with the numbers in the research because this purportedly has an A/A ratio of something like 121!! The specific numbers say that it has anabolic activity 7.3 times that of methandrostenolone (dianabol) while maintaining a seminal vesicle androgenic reading of 0.06 times that of methandrostenolone.

so which one is right??? what the hell does that delta mean??

(i know this is kind of moot, and the bottom line is that the hormone is stupidly anabolic and almost entirely non-androgenic, i just want to establish the semantics)

 

[DR.D]

so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.

Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.

Of course, Halotestin is ranked as 20x more anabolic that methytest in the Vida, but nitrogen retention assays in humans only revealed it to be 3x, about the same as Anadrol. Nitrogen retention assays only show Winni and Dbol to be 2x as anabolic as methyltest. So it's just so hard to read a book and know anything unless you've tried it yourself. I have made this argument to BC many a time! No amount of education or studies beats real world evidence and experience.

I heard that Alpine uncovered this as a scam at BB anyway. That makes total since to me though. Like I said, I had the best lab in China working on this and they couldn't do it, even with a micro lab at their facility. Don't waste your money.

 

[LakeMountD]

Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.

Of course, Halotestin is ranked as 20x more anabolic that methytest in the Vida, but nitrogen retention assays in humans only revealed it to be 3x, about the same as Anadrol. Nitrogen retention assays only show Winni and Dbol to be 2x as anabolic as methyltest. So it's just so hard to read a book and know anything unless you've tried it yourself. I have made this argument to BC many a time! No amount of education or studies beats real world evidence and experience.

I heard that Alpine uncovered this as a scam at BB anyway. That makes total since to me though. Like I said, I had the best lab in China working on this and they couldn't do it, even with a micro lab at their facility. Don't waste your money.

So it was a scam?

I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.

 

[DR.D]

So it was a scam?

I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.

That's what I heard.

 

[Alpine]

That's what I heard.

No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.

So it was a scam?

I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.

Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.

 

[LakeMountD]

No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.



Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.

Heck I still say we all just ramp up the tren and stop waiting for a monster! :head: :smite: :twisted:



haha j/k

 

[same_old]

Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.

so there is elsewhere no explanation of the delta-1 nomenclature?

that table says that dbol is 90-210% as anabolic as ___ (i assume MT but apparently the reference can vary)...if it is indeed MT, then the truth is that "oxygynox" is actually 657-1533 times as anabolic as MT...makes a little more sense.

again, i realize this is all pretty meaningless, but it at least gives us a starting point for dosing (i am thinking 10mg to start, actually, considering how very similar the numbers are to M1T @ 910-1600)