Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!... Apparently the best way to attach the oxygen at 11 is with the use of bacteria. It's harder to make than most stuff. Bacteria will add the oxygen at 11. Methyltest fermented = 11-oxo methyltest. Then add chlorine at 4.
Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!
Appreciated...Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!
doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?Well, the Vida states that it's over 7x as anabolic as M1T but only 6% as androgenic. Sounds like a winner to me! I'm sure it's dry with 5a-reductase and mild, passive aromatase inhibiting properties. I bet it's a decent cortisol antagonist too. Of course the 11-hydroxy version of this same compound is only 0.3x (or 30%) as strong as M1T which is not that impressive so that makes no sense. There should not be such a large difference in the potencies of these two compounds so one of the reports must be wrong. Regardless if it takes 5 or 60mg as an effective dose, the favorable separation of anabolic and androgenic effects is what makes it a good looking possibility.
I'm pretty sure he meant M1Tdoc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
Rumor is SFR also plans to produce a C17b-carbonate ester version of furazabol (17-alpha-methyl-5-alpha-androsta-2,3-furazan,17b-ol). It will be a non-methyl, non-toxic. This is another thing that IS NOT coming from China.
While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
i would also like to know how the 2 compare from someone that has experience with both...i love superdrol and epistane seems to be the only thing that may be at the same level in terms of gains (i care about strength more than anything) as of late...While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
Well if you use the sostenol, you'll be using half of these new compounds all at onceSo many compounds, so little liver left.
Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!
Hee-hee!
:frustrate :blink:
actually i was being sarcastic - i know for a fact he meant MT, for the reasons Alpha-Male gave. i dont know why he kept saying M1T...anywhoI'm pretty sure he meant M1T
Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.
Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.
As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between superdrol and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).
In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I only ran it at 20mg/day. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.
I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.
Ya, all things considered. (sides, health, etc.)so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....
1) epistane
2) superdrol
3) pheraplext
For me, Epistane has been every bit as hard on hair as PP was. On paper, it is less androgenic though. I had no other androgenic sides. I never really do with these new designers though. All I ever notice is slightly accelerated thinning. I can normally bounce back a lil, but it doesn't help things. I'm prone though... gotta pay to playyea i never cared to try halodrol
i have tons of superdrol and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it
SD is amazing
right now i am deciding between superdrol and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well
No, I mean M1T. The Vida states it as delta-1-17a-MT. When it's referencing methytest is just says 17a-MT.doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
Yeah, in some studies SD was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).
Mr.50
Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lolI thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?
Thank you for the help M50! I've been gone a few days and appreciate it. You explanation was solid my man.Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then superdrol.
Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.
Mr.50
With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
Amen to that! The stigma with steroids has gotten crazy. Hoodia's active ingredient is a steroid (that kills appetite) and fenugreek's main active is a steroid (that lowers cholesterol) so are all the capillary protecants, sterols or flavones. There are steroids that improve glucose and insulin tolerance, prevent cell differentiation and promote cancer cell apoptosis, burn fat, protect the prostate, ect, ect.. all good stuff! It's time to quit being so one sided and start studying these compounds again.With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.
all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.
The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.
The common denominator is profitability. Anabolic steroid research pretty much grinded to a halt in the 50's. Social stigmas and an archaic, stagnant medical education systems have kept it that way.all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.
It was first approved for HRT in Finland in 2003. Indevus licensed U.S. rights to Nebido in July of 2005. They are conducting pharmacokinetic studies they expect to be done in May of this year. It probably wont be available to consumers (eer patients) until next year at best (overly optimistic). Just an example, Stuff takes time...NEBIDO contains 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate in a novel formulation. After administration of NEBIDO, testosterone levels remain within the physiological range for approximately 12 weeks.
my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol
Just keep in mind that when SD first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.
True, we need more unrelated 3rd party blood tests ASAP.Just keep in mind that when superdrol first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.
you might find this thread interestingand some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either.
As an example, there is a newer attempt at knocking off the old MTRN product by KS that is no where near correct. Hard to knock off what you do not know how to create yourself.
Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than SD as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.Also I believe Dr.D has run both superdrol and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.
Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than superdrol as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.
SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.
Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for post cycle therapy. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.
As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.
SD @ 30 I'd give a 7can you rate strength gains 1-10 with each?
superdrol @ 30mg- ?
epistane @ 40mg- ?
and don't forget that you can run epistane longer!
I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.
but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.
clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?
so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.
Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.
So it was a scam?Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.
Of course, Halotestin is ranked as 20x more anabolic that methytest in the Vida, but nitrogen retention assays in humans only revealed it to be 3x, about the same as Anadrol. Nitrogen retention assays only show Winni and Dbol to be 2x as anabolic as methyltest. So it's just so hard to read a book and know anything unless you've tried it yourself. I have made this argument to BC many a time! No amount of education or studies beats real world evidence and experience.
I heard that Alpine uncovered this as a scam at BB anyway. That makes total since to me though. Like I said, I had the best lab in China working on this and they couldn't do it, even with a micro lab at their facility. Don't waste your money.
That's what I heard.So it was a scam?
I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.
No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.That's what I heard.
Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.So it was a scam?
I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.
No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.
Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.
so there is elsewhere no explanation of the delta-1 nomenclature?Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.