You do not need "prolactin control" on a Deca/NPP cycle

[hairygrandpa]

Prolactin gyno is directly caused by androgen (DHT) deficiency:

"Although prolactin (PRL) receptors are present in male breast tissue, hyperprolactinemia may lead to gynecomastia through effects on the hypothalamus, causing central hypogonadism'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987263/

This says that prolactin gyno is caused by androgen deficiency. Which does what? Increases ER-a signalling because there's not enough DHT to stop it...

You have to remember that 19-nors themselves bind ER-a same as E2 does, so an AI is useless in this regard because it's not E2 that's causing the gyno, it's the 19-nor mimicking E2. So yes, you can lower prolactin with DA-agonists, or you can prevent the rise in prolactin in the first place by treating with DHT. Prolactin follows ER-a activation, and it's likely that the way that 19-nors affect ER-a gene transcription they do so in a manner that upregulates PRL release. Still, at the root of all this is excessive ER-a signalling, which DHT stops.

DA-agonists are not treating the root cause, which is insufficient DHT levels to counter-balance ER-a signalling.

I have explained this at least 5 different times, with citations, and not one person here is seemingly able to grasp this concept. Why?

DHT keeps E2 in check, which is why some guys who run finasteride get gyno even from normal TT and normal E2 levels. Without adequate DHT, ER-a signalling surges, so even normal amounts of E2 can cause gyno in the absence of normal levels of DHT.

Good info!
It was mentioned elsewhere in another forum too. One reported that 50mg/d winstrol with trest would curb the gyno/prolactin issue. Would make sense, as it is DHT derived.

Please keep up the discussion without name callings. In the end anyone can benefit from the info shared.

 

[hairygrandpa]

When I say ai I'm talking about caber or prami which arent technically ais I know. Traditional ais dont work w 19 nors. Did you try either of those to control sides w your 19nor runs HGP?

Edit: duh nevermind just saw you stated the caber worked

Caber did ultimately the trick. Prami gives me hellish sides. I think its worth trying a DHT derivative with the 19 nors, as Spurfy said.

 

[Old Witch]

I was just asking the questions I thought others ought to be asking, so he would explain clearly so this was going to seem favorable without a doubt. I understand the concept (of the clomid and naltrexone on cycle), read all of the connected study, it seems like it should work. I think an AI is necessary to complete pct properly though.

I’ve been saying all year the best way to run 19-nor steroids is with masteron. And it has everything to do with both my research via scholarly articles and personal experience doing as such.

I don’t agree all dhts will have similarly potent protective effects at safe doses, but it would be great to be proven wrong in the field. DMZ at 30mg certainly doesn’t in my case, up to 100mg proviron either. It all depends on the binding affinity of the individual steroid itself for the correct tissues. DHB won’t provide this protection until you’re at a highly anabolic dose, becoming less ancillary and more of the major anabolic factor at that point.

 

[stud220]

You my friend are an idiot giving out bad advice

 

[hairygrandpa]

You my friend are an idiot giving out bad advice

I see people with different opinions -maybe skeptics but no idiots...
Wait, I think I found one.

 

[Hyde]

You do not need "prolactin control" on a Deca/NPP cycle

I see people with different opinions -maybe skeptics but no idiots...
Wait, I think I found one.

#got’em

 

[Spurfy]

You my friend are an idiot giving out bad advice

Thank you for your very articulate feedback and your generous use of citations to prove your assertions.

 

[Old Witch]

Thank you for your very articulate feedback and your generous use of citations to prove your assertions.

Well, at least he got the clear and concise part down.

...and this thread was really turning around, too.


Hey, about naltrexone; two questions. In your opinion would this opioid be safe to use for someone allergic to codeine or morphine? Would this drug be easy enough for the likes of us to source?

 

[Spurfy]

Well, at least he got the clear and concise part down.

...and this thread was really turning around, too.


Hey, about naltrexone; two questions. In your opinion would this opioid be safe to use for someone allergic to codeine or morphine? Would this drug be easy enough for the likes of us to source?

This drug does the exact opposite as codeine and morphine, so my assumption is that there is no risk of allergy for people allergic to opioids.

Secondly, this drug is easy to source and very cheap. Asking one’s family doctor for a script to “cut down on drinking” should be sufficient. This drug is exceptionally safe and has ZERO potential for addiction.

 

[Old Witch]

This drug does the exact opposite as codeine and morphine, so my assumption is that there is no risk of allergy for people allergic to opioids.

Secondly, this drug is easy to source and very cheap. Asking one’s family doctor for a script to “cut down on drinking” should be sufficient. This drug is exceptionally safe and has ZERO potential for addiction.

Perfect answer. Thank you.

 

[Spurfy]

Perfect answer. Thank you.

My pleasure.

 

[Jinsun]

I'm not talking about SERMs in this respect, as I stated in my post that you replied to, I'm talking about DHT.

Yes, in this particular instance you are not. You did however many times claim, that you do not need an ia, if you are using a serm. Do you still stand by this?

Regarding the usage of DHT and or it's analogues for e2; they have a lot more sides (hair thinning, aggression, prostate enlargement, skin problems, etc.). This are all very pronounced. I get all of them. What sides do Ai's have that can compare in magnitude of action to DHT's? Non really. Also not to mention that this is all theory. You still have for a fact very high estradiol in your blood serum and it surely is having an effect on the system. Why not lower it with an Ai? And then also use your dht for added safety and effect if you wish to do so.

Look, play with your health as much as you want. I will be sticking to Ai's - but thanks to this thread, I will be using viron/mast in all future cycles and most definitely during and after pct. My gyno got really worse after PCT, would have been much better if I took viron and off course didn't forget about rebound E2 hehe.

 

[Jinsun]

Letting E2 go very high for gains purposes? I get that, but in reality, high e2 makes you bloated as fuack, also it doesn't help with blood pressure at all, skin gets bad, you get emotional, etc. I get that you are saying that you don't have this sides, except for the bloat which you welcome, but will others experience be the same? What damage is being done by the high e2 for the duration of the whole cycle? Can you say with certainty that there is none?

 

[Jinsun]

If you are not deficient in 5a enzyme, your androgen ration, if e2 is kept in check, will be much in favour of DHT vs E2. This is on a cycle that includes test at doses above trt offcourse. So is there then really a need of extra added dht? Arent you killing two birds with one stone if using an ai...

 

[Hyde]

Yes, in this particular instance you are not. You did however many times claim, that you do not need an ia, if you are using a serm. Do you still stand by this?

Regarding the usage of DHT and or it's analogues for e2; they have a lot more sides (hair thinning, aggression, prostate enlargement, skin problems, etc.). This are all very pronounced. I get all of them. What sides do Ai's have that can compare in magnitude of action to DHT's? Non really. Also not to mention that this is all theory. You still have for a fact very high estradiol in your blood serum and it surely is having an effect on the system. Why not lower it with an Ai? And then also use your dht for added safety and effect if you wish to do so.

Look, play with your health as much as you want. I will be sticking to Ai's - but thanks to this thread, I will be using viron/mast in all future cycles and most definitely during and after pct. My gyno got really worse after PCT, would have been much better if I took viron and off course didn't forget about rebound E2 hehe.

Whoa whoa whoa, did I miss something about masteron not being suppressive in PCT? I

have read anecdotally many guys find up to 50mg Proviron to have zero noticeable impact on their PCT recovery (but feel better), but I thought Masteron at any normally used dose would be suppressive?

 

[Jinsun]

Whoa whoa whoa, did I miss something about masteron not being suppressive in PCT? I

have read anecdotally many guys find up to 50mg Proviron to have zero noticeable impact on their PCT recovery (but feel better), but I thought Masteron at any normally used dose would be suppressive?

Not sure about mast, but viron should be safe. I mean, aren't they more or less the same compound?

 

[Old Witch]

Not sure about mast, but viron should be safe. I mean, aren't they more or less the same compound?

As much as anavar, winstrol, and superdrol are the same compound.

 

[Jinsun]

As much as anavar, winstrol, and superdrol are the same compound.

Okay. So mast for on cycle and viron for off cycle...

 

[natpwr79]

Why the F does it matter what the “mechanism of action” is? Nobodies taking an exam here or trying to pass their medical boards. All exogenous hormones come with side effects.....everybody reacts different. Know your sides, treat them accordingly (via labs or trial and error). If you want to educate yourself on what “may” be happening in your body, more power to ya’. All the mental masterbation is likely to misdirect someone. Many people see a bump in prolactin production. Even small bumps can effect someone’s hormonal “ebb and flow” resulting in unwanted side effects. To say that you don’t need protection just in case is bad advice! For anyone who cares, I recommend pramipexole. Tell your dr you have restless legs(look up the diagnosis and differential diagnoses to prepare yourself for the visit) and you would like to try pramipexole for 30 days. This will get you a full cycle supply of prami just in case. Useful advice from someone in “the know”

 

[Spurfy]

Why the F does it matter what the “mechanism of action” is? Nobodies taking an exam here or trying to pass their medical boards. All exogenous hormones come with side effects.....everybody reacts different. Know your sides, treat them accordingly (via labs or trial and error). If you want to educate yourself on what “may” be happening in your body, more power to ya’. All the mental masterbation is likely to misdirect someone. Many people see a bump in prolactin production. Even small bumps can effect someone’s hormonal “ebb and flow” resulting in unwanted side effects. To say that you don’t need protection just in case is bad advice! For anyone who cares, I recommend pramipexole. Tell your dr you have restless legs(look up the diagnosis and differential diagnoses to prepare yourself for the visit) and you would like to try pramipexole for 30 days. This will get you a full cycle supply of prami just in case. Useful advice from someone in “the know”

TL;DR

 

[Old Witch]

*hard facepalm*

 

[hairygrandpa]

Prami?

 

[Old Witch]

You do not need "prolactin control" on a Deca/NPP cycle

Prami?

Just get the Caverject and shoot it right into your dick.

 

[Hyde]

Ugh I have some bad experiences with Prami. Bet I have 3 old bottles, probably crashed, just sitting in the stash. Right next to the letro. Both are legit break in case of emergency only.

 

[Spurfy]

Had an intense gyno flare start on left nipple-only yesterday. It’s been a week or so since I’ve jumped from 600 to 875 TE. Left nipple was painful, burning, itching, and area was puffy.

25 mg Aromasin, 60 mg Torem, 100 mg Mast P, and 6 hours later all symptoms gone. I’m going to continue the Torem for 5 days to let it build up in my system.

It seems that my body was fine with 600 on my stack but 875 was definitely too much. I’ll keep running the 875 as planned until it’s time to drop to 125 and then go off TE.

I’m really not a fan of high dose Test, but I wanted to run it at least once. All future cycles will be at 300 as per usual, maybe less.

Still running NOTHING for prolactin control...

 

[Hyde]

Good update

 

[natpwr79]

Not sure what kind of issues anyone has had with prami, but my guess would be the dose being taken is way too high. 125mcg at bedtime every 2-3 days is really all you need to combat DD(personal
Experience and friends as well). That is the dose for restless leg, any more than that and your getting into Parkinson’s level dosing, which would definitely have lethargic/mental effects.

 

[Hyde]

Not sure what kind of issues anyone has had with prami, but my guess would be the dose being taken is way too high. 125mcg at bedtime every 2-3 days is really all you need to combat DD(personal
Experience and friends as well). That is the dose for restless leg, any more than that and your getting into Parkinson’s level dosing, which would definitely have lethargic/mental effects.

You would think that - makes sense to me on paper. However, my issues were strictly tolerance related. ~100mcg daily was where I began and by day 3 I basically got the flu from it. But I stayed with it and moved to bedtime dosing and was able to take the dose up crazy high, 1mg nightly by the last weeks on it.

I was very uneducated about it then so I’m not saying it was smart, just that it was super harsh at reasonable doses and then once I adjusted to it I was alright at megadoses even.

 

[natpwr79]

Definitely meant for night time dosing. Daily was probably too often though(unless you DO have restless leg that is).

 

[Old Witch]

THANKS for that info . I will definitely keep that in mind when I start running that in the near future . Just waiting until AFTER my next testosterone test to start on it .

I did say sufficient, not necessarily adequate and most likely not entirely satisfactory.

 

[Spurfy]

Update: Mid-day more left nipple burning, not as bad as yesterday. Dropped 25 mg more Aromasin and 60 mg Torem, that should pretty well crush ER-a binding. Hitting Mast E 200 with 200 NPP tomorrow, and I expect Mast will have this completely taken care of 48 hours after pin. Still going to continue Torem at 60 for next 3 days and I do have Ralox and selegiline (potent PRL inhibitor) on standby, but very seriously doubt I’ll need them.

Lowering TE dose to 125/week until things straighten out. Honestly, Test is a mediocre-at-best cycling compound, IMO. I’ve never been a fan of it and this is exactly why — it’s too finicky and for the work required to dial in and the sides (especially bloat) there are way better compounds.

All future cycles will likely be run at TRT doses of TE. NPP/Mast will now be in all cycles. Planning TRT/NPP/Mast/Var run next, should be glorious.

Still not running any prolactin control...

 

[Old Witch]

Update: Mid-day more left nipple burning, not as bad as yesterday. Dropped 25 mg more Aromasin and 60 mg Torem, that should pretty well crush ER-a binding. Hitting Mast E 200 with 200 NPP tomorrow, and I expect Mast will have this completely taken care of 48 hours after pin. Still going to continue Torem at 60 for next 3 days and I do have Ralox and selegiline (potent PRL inhibitor) on standby, but very seriously doubt I’ll need them.

Lowering TE dose to 125/week until things straighten out. Honestly, Test is a mediocre-at-best cycling compound, IMO. I’ve never been a fan of it and this is exactly why — it’s too finicky and for the work required to dial in and the sides (especially bloat) there are way better compounds.

All future cycles will likely be run at TRT doses of TE. NPP/Mast will now be in all cycles. Planning TRT/NPP/Mast/Var run next, should be glorious.

Still not running any prolactin control...

I just noticed you added an AI. Good move. Hopefully you won’t need the caber. If you do, it isn’t defeat. It’s science. So it’s ok if it does come to that.

 

[Spurfy]

I just noticed you added an AI. Good move. Hopefully you won’t need the caber. If you do, it isn’t defeat. It’s science. So it’s ok if it does come to that.

Well, I’m expecting the next 3 days to be rough — 25 mg Aromasin on consecutive days always makes me frail for about 3 days.

Still, better 3 days of unpleasantness than gyno...

If I need prolactin control I’ll be running L-dopa and selegiline. I don’t ever run straight DA agonists like Bromo, Caber, or Prami, because I find the sides absolutely intolerable. L-dopa + selegiline is like being on a low dose of really, really good meth without the insomnia, and also lowers PRL by ~90%.

 

[Spurfy]

Update: Raloxifene is soluble in DMSO at 100 mg/mL. If I need to use Ralox I’ll be applying it directly on and around the nipple.

 

[Old Witch]

Well, I’m expecting the next 3 days to be rough — 25 mg Aromasin on consecutive days always makes me frail for about 3 days.

Still, better 3 days of unpleasantness than gyno...

If I need prolactin control I’ll be running L-dopa and selegiline. I don’t ever run straight DA agonists like Bromo, Caber, or Prami, because I find the sides absolutely intolerable. L-dopa + selegiline is like being on a low dose of really, really good meth without the insomnia, and also lowers PRL by ~90%.

I have tried l dopa with selegiline, and I have also tried a couple of phenylethylamine with it. And the combination of both.

I’ve also seen it dosed together in preworkout drinks. I think that’s reckless.


Anyway, that’s certainly a good recipe for dopamine. Didn’t realize it could actually be as effective as cabergoline taken that way.

 

[Jinsun]

Sooo... the masteron and serm theory for e2 control doesn't hold up that well. Tnx for sharing.

RE test: test for gains isn't the best at all. Imo it should be there just for recovery, good feeling, etc. As a "base". I think around 300 - 400mg's max.

 

[Spurfy]

Sooo... the masteron and serm theory for e2 control doesn't hold up that well. Tnx for sharing.

Bro, I’m on 875 mg/week of TE, and things only went wonky when I bumped from 600 w/o bumping Mast as well. Prior to this cycle I had never run higher than 500/week. And still not running any prolactin control...

RE test: test for gains isn't the best at all. Imo it should be there just for recovery, good feeling, etc. As a "base". I think around 300 - 400mg's max.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[Old Witch]

Sooo... the masteron and serm theory for e2 control doesn't hold up that well. Tnx for sharing.

RE test: test for gains isn't the best at all. Imo it should be there just for recovery, good feeling, etc. As a "base". I think around 300 - 400mg's max.

I concur wholeheartedly. Though high test (750-1500+) can be a fun cycle in its own right. Not the best for gains by far. For that it’s a tie between NPP and DHB C for me. Though I think I won’t ever use npp again. DHB is a slam dunk with my physiology. I just respond very well to it I guess.

 

[Jinsun]

I concur wholeheartedly. Though high test (750-1500+) can be a fun cycle in its own right. Not the best for gains by far. For that it’s a tie between NPP and DHB C for me. Though I think I won’t ever use npp again. DHB is a slam dunk with my physiology. I just respond very well to it I guess.

Haha a 1.5g off test... fun is an understatement. Can't even imagine what I would do on that much. Probably had to quit all projects and go to the nut house for the duration of the cycle ...

 

[Spurfy]

Update: All pre-gyno symptoms gone. Of everything I used, Masteron seemed to have had the most dramatic effect — I literally felt the kick from the 200 mg Mast E around 7:00 this evening which was accompanied by a nearly instant and complete cessation of all nipple issues.

Lesson learned: High dose Test is not for me.

Still no prolactin control...

 

[Spurfy]

Update: Masteron has totally crushed this. I have dropped the Torem since I upped my dose of Mast E and have had no further issues. I'm going to go back up to 600 mg/week TE and bump the Mast E and see what happens -- I'll be running 600 TE/600 NPP/600 Mast E for the remaining 6 weeks of this cycle.

Also, forgot to mention that the end of this cycle, after "PCT", will be followed by 14 days of ketogenic dieting and then 3 weeks of water-only fasting.

Still not running any prolactin control...

 

[Nac]

3 weeks of water-only fasting.

Inb4 lose all gainz
Inb4 water laced with anavar
Inb4 new method of prolactin control

 

[Spurfy]

Inb4 lose all gainz
Inb4 water laced with anavar
Inb4 new method of prolactin control

I hereby award you 100,000,000,000 internets.

 

[Old Witch]

Skipping up from 200 to 600 eh? Oh man, I hope you have a knee brace.

 

[Ryan303]

Prolactin gyno... absolutely must be a thing. If my estrogen gets high I get puffy and red, headaches, water retention, rapid weight gain. Nipples unaffected. If my prolactin goes high my dick goes limp and my nips itch like crazy. So... yeah bull****.

Mate my nips itchy / sore as hell recently, npp I’m currently using with bold , and feel puffy , cheeks are like hamsters lol

 

[Spurfy]

Skipping up from 200 to 600 eh? Oh man, I hope you have a knee brace.

We’ll see, but so far the NPP has been so kind to my joints and the Mast so awesome at everything else that I’m willing to gamble a bit.

Also, the strength boost I got from that extra Mast (260 mg extra) was noticeable and pretty dramatic. I was able to push through extra reps with heavier weight that I had been struggling with prior, this was even after the Aromaisin, which tends to tank my strength a bit.

BTW, I did get a few low E sides from the back-to-back 25 mg/day Aromasin, but joint pain interestingly was not one of them, and this is usually my worst one. Didn't get any myalgia either, which is also unusual. Just lethargy, no libido, and a general feeling of magnified discontent with the world. As of today these seem to have subsided, except for the feeling of discontent with the world, but I often have that anyway. I strongly suspect that nandrolone has a direct anti-inflammatory action on tendons, ligaments, and muscles.

 

[Hyde]

3 weeks no food? I thought you had mentioned 10 days before, but 3 weeks will be on another level.

 

[Spurfy]

3 weeks no food? I thought you had mentioned 10 days before, but 3 weeks will be on another level.

This has not, by any measure, been a clean bulk... 10 days just will not be enough time to shred me after this bulk, but 21 will.

Honestly, if you can fast 10 days you can fast 21. After day 5 you're able to just completely dissociate from any desire to eat, especially when every morning you wake up visibly leaner. People who haven't fasted don't really understand that your appetite vanishes after a few days and doesn't really return until you've exhausted nearly all of your fat reserves -- generally about 5-6% bodyfat. Fasting also feels good once you're deep into it. Your mind is razor sharp, all senses are heightened, energy is seemingly boundless, and there is an ever-present feeling of euphoria and power. You feel like you're in a bubble that is your own tiny universe, and all problems seem easily surmountable.

It's also pretty awesome to witness a decade of aging just vanish from your face in less than a month, and that first lift after fasting is always the best one ever.

 

[Old Witch]

We’ll see, but so far the NPP has been so kind to my joints and the Mast so awesome at everything else that I’m willing to gamble a bit.

Also, the strength boost I got from that extra Mast (260 mg extra) was noticeable and pretty dramatic. I was able to push through extra reps with heavier weight that I had been struggling with prior, this was even after the Aromaisin, which tends to tank my strength a bit.

BTW, I did get a few low E sides from the back-to-back 25 mg/day Aromasin, but joint pain interestingly was not one of them, and this is usually my worst one. Didn't get any myalgia either, which is also unusual. Just lethargy, no libido, and a general feeling of magnified discontent with the world. As of today these seem to have subsided, expect for the feeling of discontent with the world, but I often have that anyway. I strongly suspect that nandrolone has a direct anti-inflammatory action on tendons, ligaments, and muscles.

Interesting. I know Nandrolone can add quite a bit of sinovial fluid, so it’s possible it’s enough to keep them from drying out. I had thought of the joint drying effect of mast vs the lubricant effect of npp, that the drying effect was more likely to be the winner of that battle.

 

[Jinsun]

Fasting also feels good once you're deep into it. Your mind is razor sharp, all senses are heightened, energy is seemingly boundless, and there is an ever-present feeling of euphoria and power. You feel like you're in a bubble that is your own tiny universe, and all problems seem easily surmountable.

LOL good sales pitch

But anyway, here you go again with the controversial's: 3 weeks fasting XD

I haven't fasted for a single day in my life. But I've read that after a few days, ghrelin goes away, and then it becomes much easier. As you say, after a couple of days...