The Secret to Bulking

Moyer

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McDonalds isn't actually that cheap. If you compare it to skim milk, whole eggs, tuna, olive oil, rice, and generic pasta, it looks quite expensive. McDonalds is about taste & convenience.

Just because you're skinny and you have a "high metabolism", it doesn't mean you should keep eating fast food. Endos can eat fast food too without getting fat, they just have to keep track of the calories. The reason you wouldn't want to eat it all the time is overall long term health. Having extremely low micronutrition and eating tons of trans fat at the same time, just a bad idea if you like to take care of your body. Skinny does not equal healthy.
 
HITscientist

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Just curious on some of the reasons you personally felt HIT was wrong.
 
Xodus

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Well, that part isn't about rate, its about saturated fats, sodium, etc. Figure a big mac (540), large fries (570) and coke (310) has 1410 calories, with 59 g of fat, and 16 of it saturated.

so macro wise, that is over 40% of calories from fat. You are only getting 31g of protein out of that, and around 188g of carbs with almost all of that being simple carbs.

Hitting 1410 cals cleanly would mean an 8oz piece of salmon, 2 8oz pieces of chicken breast, 2 cups of whole wheat pasta, 2 cups of vegetable of choice, 2 bannans and a grapefruit and a bit of extra virgin olive oil

high metabolic rates burns the calories the same, but in scenario 2 it would cost you 3x as much $ to eat the meal, but WAY better for lean muscle building. The problem is the $ part, its hard for a lot of people to spend $15-20 a meal every meal of the day
Pretty decent tips in this recent T-Nation article...

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1720940


And it beats eating off of the dollar menu.

:burg:

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Speedbacker

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It is a huge nutrient partioner and a great training method for being used when you employ agents that are anabolic.
Very True. Have found this in my own experience as well.
 
EasyEJL

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Very True. Have found this in my own experience as well.
I plan on doing the GBC inbetween for 4 weeks, then going back on GVT while i'm on cycle of epistane + revolt. I should balloon on that, so long as I can eat enough. If the revolt gives me the fast recovery I hear it does, I may do some of the full body aerobic type excersizes off days
 
RenegadeRows

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Just curious on some of the reasons you personally felt HIT was wrong.
I don't use it because I feel it stresses the CNS too much.

I feel going to complete and utter pass-out style failure is good once in a while. However I beleive you need more than 1-3 set per bodypart per week to induce growth.

Could I see what your workout routine looks like (just curious)?
 
HITscientist

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I don't use it because I feel it stresses the CNS too much.

I feel going to complete and utter pass-out style failure is good once in a while. However I beleive you need more than 1-3 set per bodypart per week to induce growth.

Could I see what your workout routine looks like (just curious)?

Well, first off I should say that I am fortunate to be able to train HIT becuase I work for a high intensity low force strength training and rehabilitation facility and we have all the HIT equipment (David, Med X, Superslow, Nautilus)

Not to be rude, but can you show me studies that say it "puts too much stress on the CNS"? If so, doing multiple sets would be even more taxing no?!?!

Second, look in any athletic training text book or physiology book and look up the "overload principle of exercise". It states... " in order for any adapation to occur, the body must encounter a stimulus above and beyond what is used to". This can come from resistance or time.

Doing multiple sets is also a waste of time for the fact that is actually requires more time and fails to allow the trainee to give 100% on any set becuase otherwise you would not have enough sestemically to perfrom another set.

My workout right now is basically a upper extremity day, followed by a lower extremity day, 2-3 days of rest and then a consolidated compound fullbody workout.

Example Upper Extremity Workout

1. David Rowing Back
2. David Rotary Delt
3. Superslow Overhead Press "1 rep method" 30"+/30"-
4. David Behind The Neck Torso
5. MedX Compound Row
6. MedX Chest Press
7. David Chest Flye (stages- Cont, Mid, Stretch)
8. Bodyweight Superslow Pushups

Example Lower Extremity Workout

1. Nautilus Duo Leg Press 3 Minute Method (infimetric-bilateral-alternating)
2. Superslow Leg Extension "1 rep method" 30"+/30"-
3. Superslow Adduction
Total Workout Time- 5min30sec

Example Fullbody Workout

1. Nautilus XP Deadlift
2. Nautilus Leg Extension
3. Bodyweight Sissy Squats
4. Nautilus Overhead Press
5. Nautilus Vintage Pullover
6. Nautilus Chest Press
7. Nautilus Plate Loaded Biceps (stages- C,M,S)
8. Flex Fitness Overhead Tricep Extension
9. Nautilus Cervical Extension

*So in essance I hit my "fullbody" 2x per week, just one of those is broken up between upperbody and lower body.

* Still I follow HIT speed of motion about 8"-12". Definatley slower on the negative phase of the exercise.

I will work each set to the point where I cannot even get the weight stack started and continue pushing/pulling even though I am not moving to create a even deeper musclular inroad.
 
SteelEntity

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McDonalds isn't actually that cheap. If you compare it to skim milk, whole eggs, tuna, olive oil, rice, and generic pasta, it looks quite expensive. McDonalds is about taste & convenience.

Just because you're skinny and you have a "high metabolism", it doesn't mean you should keep eating fast food. Endos can eat fast food too without getting fat, they just have to keep track of the calories. The reason you wouldn't want to eat it all the time is overall long term health. Having extremely low micronutrition and eating tons of trans fat at the same time, just a bad idea if you like to take care of your body. Skinny does not equal healthy.
Skinny people with fast metabolisms can benefit from eating fast food in that they can take in a 1/3 of their daily calories in 1 sitting. Try eating 1500 calories of fish and veggies, not fun. Eating ****ty food like this should not be a staple in anyones diet, but a few times a week can really help. I have done both super clean bulks and dirty bulks, the dirty bulk wins hands down for me. Shedding fat is the easy part, so why compromise muscle gain because you are afraid of gaining a few pounds of fat?
 
RenegadeRows

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Honestly the only way I gain weight is to gorge myself, and I don't have the luxury of having enough money to buy 10lbs of lean chicken every few days.

I eat what I can get my hands on, be it a healthy salad, or a big mac. Good point though - it's only for bulking, not a staple or continuing diet. 3 months at the most for extra gains.

not to mention, the first 30lbs i gained was easy, now it's just down-right digusting how much i have to eat to gain (naturally)
 
Xodus

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Honestly the only way I gain weight is to gorge myself, and I don't have the luxury of having enough money to buy 10lbs of lean chicken every few days.

I eat what I can get my hands on, be it a healthy salad, or a big mac. Good point though - it's only for bulking, not a staple or continuing diet. 3 months at the most for extra gains.

not to mention, the first 30lbs i gained was easy, now it's just down-right digusting how much i have to eat to gain (naturally)
A few tablespoons of natty PB in your shakes or cottage cheese can add several hundred cals in very little 'volume', every single day.



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Moyer

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Skinny people with fast metabolisms can benefit from eating fast food in that they can take in a 1/3 of their daily calories in 1 sitting. Try eating 1500 calories of fish and veggies, not fun. Eating ****ty food like this should not be a staple in anyones diet, but a few times a week can really help. I have done both super clean bulks and dirty bulks, the dirty bulk wins hands down for me. Shedding fat is the easy part, so why compromise muscle gain because you are afraid of gaining a few pounds of fat?
You can eat olive oil & bread & potatoes at home. It's no more filling, it's cheaper, and it's free of trans fat & saturated fat. It'd be healthier(and cheaper) to throw in some peanut butter and ice cream when you need it than to hit up a Big Mac and chicken nuggets on a regular basis.

Maybe I'm biased though, trans fat is the only thing I really try to avoid eating.

I completely agree though on eating super "clean". Practically making yourself sick trying to eat a sh*t ton of oatmeal & veggies just to gain some muscle is pretty silly. Glucose from pizza dough will build muscle just as well as the glucose from long grain brown rice.
 

Doubravkody

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thats probably true for some people but not me, I worked at mcdonalds for 3 years, and ate their food literally 7-8 times a week, and I never gained a pound. And with heart problems running in both sides of my family prolly wasnt a good idea for me....then once i started eating right i gained bout 15 pounds in 3 months....then i gained 5 pounds in the past 4 months, and now im stuck :(
 
EasyEJL

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thats probably true for some people but not me, I worked at mcdonalds for 3 years, and ate their food literally 7-8 times a week, and I never gained a pound. And with heart problems running in both sides of my family prolly wasnt a good idea for me....then once i started eating right i gained bout 15 pounds in 3 months....then i gained 5 pounds in the past 4 months, and now im stuck :(
Try adding 3 tablespoons of fish oil a day to your diet, one with each meal.
 
HITscientist

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I think this is silly.

Anyone can gain weight clean. I don't like even using the term "hardgainer". Yes it's not fun eating oatmeal, brown rice, chicken, steak, eggs and aiming for 3500-4500 calories, but this is f**king bodybuilding!

We try to take our physique's into what some would call "freakish". Well to get there we have to eat "freakishly"! Many people on this thread have made great suggestions on how to get clean calories easily (ie. fish oil, olive oil etc etc).

A cheat meal 1 day a week is a good idea for sanity and for a little surplus of calories. To do it daily, isn't bodybuilding. IMO.
 

Doubravkody

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i have fish oil soft gels...will 3 of them a day work?
 
AZZA

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i have fish oil soft gels...will 3 of them a day work?
Fish oil caps are good for overall health but wont stick pounds on your frame. You need to do these 3 things to gain mass
1) eat more than you need to and dont worry about the ratio too much of carbs to protein to fat. Keep you food sources to good clean food after all its your body.

2) train with heavy free weights 4 times a week for no more than 12 reps and as low as 5. No cardio eg to warm up legs before squats use squats to warm up.

3) sleep as much as you need to, if you can grab a nap during the day.

Its working for me 164 to 190 in 3 months.
AZZA
 
EasyEJL

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i have fish oil soft gels...will 3 of them a day work?
thats enough for health purposes in general, not significant in mass building. Crazy as it sounds, for that purpose you are talking more like 40 a day. BTW, Custom Nutrition Warehouse a board sponsor sells 1000 1g fish oild caps for $27.99
 

Doubravkody

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160-190
very impressive

I am at 120-125 all I want to get to is 140-145. thatd be perfect for my size...

2 years ago I was only 100
crazy on how u can gain so fast tho
 
AZZA

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160-190
very impressive

I am at 120-125 all I want to get to is 140-145. thatd be perfect for my size...

2 years ago I was only 100
crazy on how u can gain so fast tho
Its not rocket science and 36 years old and 6 ft tall and skinny frame so i was surprised myself. I thought it would take 6 months to go from 74.5 kg to 90 kg or around 200 pounds. I am on track to do it in 4.5 months. Most people i think try and make gaining weight or muscle to complicated and miss the one thing that made them grow from the time they were born. Eating and sleeping!! Read my bulking thread to see how easy it is. I eat the whole day long, i am always chewing on something.
AZZA
 
tparisi

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Sleep

i agree 100% that 8 hours sleep min is complete bollocks, if i sleep more than 7 i cant not stay awake but when i get 6 hours sleep im full of energy
Yeah it totally depends on the person. I personally get about 6 to 6 and a half myself. It just depends on your sleep cycle. Two four hour sleep cycles they say is normal (hence 8 hours). Obviously your REM sleep is most important, and it takes some people longer to get into REM than others. If you are having trouble I suggest GABA powder. But if you aren't getting enough sleep, which is different for everyone (6 for me), they don't even bother with supplements cause you are just wasting your time.
 
SteelEntity

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I just started using GABA, I don't know if it aids in getting to sleep but I do feel more rested on less sleep. As mentioned above, if I sleep 9 hours I feel like **** the whole day, 7 hours is perfect for me.
 
tparisi

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gaba

I just started using GABA, I don't know if it aids in getting to sleep but I do feel more rested on less sleep. As mentioned above, if I sleep 9 hours I feel like **** the whole day, 7 hours is perfect for me.
Yeah I didn't mean it aids in sleep, just meant that it helps your sleep cycle out, just got it a little while ago too.
 
SureShot

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Well, first off I should say that I am fortunate to be able to train HIT becuase I work for a high intensity low force strength training and rehabilitation facility and we have all the HIT equipment (David, Med X, Superslow, Nautilus)

Not to be rude, but can you show me studies that say it "puts too much stress on the CNS"? If so, doing multiple sets would be even more taxing no?!?!

Second, look in any athletic training text book or physiology book and look up the "overload principle of exercise". It states... " in order for any adapation to occur, the body must encounter a stimulus above and beyond what is used to". This can come from resistance or time.

Doing multiple sets is also a waste of time for the fact that is actually requires more time and fails to allow the trainee to give 100% on any set becuase otherwise you would not have enough sestemically to perfrom another set.

My workout right now is basically a upper extremity day, followed by a lower extremity day, 2-3 days of rest and then a consolidated compound fullbody workout.

Example Upper Extremity Workout

1. David Rowing Back
2. David Rotary Delt
3. Superslow Overhead Press "1 rep method" 30"+/30"-
4. David Behind The Neck Torso
5. MedX Compound Row
6. MedX Chest Press
7. David Chest Flye (stages- Cont, Mid, Stretch)
8. Bodyweight Superslow Pushups

Example Lower Extremity Workout

1. Nautilus Duo Leg Press 3 Minute Method (infimetric-bilateral-alternating)
2. Superslow Leg Extension "1 rep method" 30"+/30"-
3. Superslow Adduction
Total Workout Time- 5min30sec

Example Fullbody Workout

1. Nautilus XP Deadlift
2. Nautilus Leg Extension
3. Bodyweight Sissy Squats
4. Nautilus Overhead Press
5. Nautilus Vintage Pullover
6. Nautilus Chest Press
7. Nautilus Plate Loaded Biceps (stages- C,M,S)
8. Flex Fitness Overhead Tricep Extension
9. Nautilus Cervical Extension

*So in essance I hit my "fullbody" 2x per week, just one of those is broken up between upperbody and lower body.

* Still I follow HIT speed of motion about 8"-12". Definatley slower on the negative phase of the exercise.

I will work each set to the point where I cannot even get the weight stack started and continue pushing/pulling even though I am not moving to create a even deeper musclular inroad.

Exactly how slow are your negatives? I also find it interesting that you use machines for the entirety of your routine. I have always felt without a training partner and going to failure machines were better than free weights. I am currently training DC so I am also incorporating many machines in my program. What are your thoughts on DC training and could you elaborate on HIT speed of motion? PM me if you could. Thanks.:squat:
 
EasyEJL

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training to failure is more likely to cause injury too. increasing time under tension with lower weights is just as valuable.
 
SureShot

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training to failure is more likely to cause injury too. increasing time under tension with lower weights is just as valuable.
I agree that going above and beyond failure can cause injury, which is why i like the way dc incorporated TUT as well as stopping just short of failure for one set.
 
EasyEJL

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Yeah, and the extreme stretches done cautiously also are perfect for it, particularly in combo with something like oratropin / hexatropin / hemogex
 
SureShot

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the extreme stretches are probably the most strenuous part of the workout, esp after doing a widowmaker set of squats, then having to do that damned sissy squat stretch, my entire body starts literally vibrating after 30sec.
 
RenegadeRows

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You should note that the total failure is alot harder to acheive than most think. Just going until you cant lift anymore unassisted is, in my opinion, not failure. I've only lifted to complete and utter failure a few times, and it was disgusting :) I don't think many people know or are willing to go that far. I prefer volume to totally pushing myself to the point of wanting to pass out and throw up.
 
HITscientist

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When a subject is aligned in a machine properly, and executes the set with the slow, precise speed of motion, then training to failure is the safest way to train. When the intensity is high and you are failing if you do not do anything different (i.e: lunge, heave, rock the weight) you simply will not be able to move and you WILL NOT get hurt. Simple.

That point is still valuable to continue to move and add to total time under load to create the deepest inroad possible.

Renegade is right though, MOST people do not know what real failure is.


Sureshot I will PM you.
 
Al Shades

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Bulking is all about your diet, not your training

It's that simple. Force feed yourself and you will gain weight. Train hard and you will gain GOOD weight.

You need to eat way more than you do now. You have to eat two of everything and wash it down with a protein shake. Forget about health, fat gain and all that. Go out and eat a Big Mac with a chocolate shake, then go do 10 sets of squats. BULKING means getting BIG and you get BIG by EATING, EATING, EATING.

I trained as hard as I could for months and only gained a lb or two. But I started eating like a horse and put on weight. It's not as easy as it sounds, it will take ALOT of work. Lifting is the fun part. Making food constantly and eating constantly is f*cking tough. Make sure to buy a bottle of Tums or Maloxx because you will have some serious heart burn going on from your increase in calories.

But that's how you get big, plain and simple.
So, the solution to one's inability to maintain a normal weight is to eat junk food, put on bodyfat, and generally be as unhealthy as possible?

A few years years from now, people in the athletic community are going to look back through the lens of history at these "massive bulking" protocols and see them as a clear indication of an ignorant and primitive time. Let me tell you, gentlemen, this kind of talk won't reflect well on us down the road.

Here's why:

As an underweight person, I am compelled to reveal a secret that those of you who are at or above normal weight will never figure out on your own. Ready for this? Here we go:

A person's natural weight is dictated less by how he eats than by his unique hormonal and genetic makeup.

Scandalous isn't it? Here's the kicker: The proponents of "massive bulking" tend to be self-professed "former skinny bastards" who supposedly "came to see the light" when they adopted said protocols. Many of them freely admit that, before they gained their newfound mass, they never put any serious effort into eating, and this is what kept them skinny. It is precisely at this stage that the bulking doctrine suffers it's most critical flaw. To wit: If you weren't eating any significant amount of food prior to going through your "transformation", then you were never a "hardgainer" in the first place -- you are nothing more than a normal person who was eating below average,, and once you normalized your eating habbits, you went up to a normal weight!

How much clearer does it need to be? You are NOT a hardgainer, and never have been, until you have had an above-average caloric consumption relative to your weight.

In my case, this means having to consume 3,000 calories per day to maintain a dry weight of 136 lbs. at a height of nearly 6'. I require 22 calories/lb. to maintain my weight, and experience has taught me that I need to take that up to about 26 in order to be able to put on any weight. Now replicate those calculations using your own statistics, current and former. Get the picture?

So, if someone eats normally, yet still maintains a below average weight, what should be done about it?

The bulking proponents have no viable answer to this question other than to offer their standard remedy:

"If something isn't working, simply throw calories at the problem".

No matter how much a person is already taking in relative to his bodyweight, he is simply told that it isn't enough and that he must increase his consumption even further. Pretty irresponsible, if you ask me. It's an impractical solution covering for a bad theory.

A lot of people who've never been underweight are under the impression that underweight individuals are necessarily lean and that they can "eat anything they want without putting on any fat". This is WRONG. Allow me to correct it: Underweight individuals can "eat anything they want" without putting on any weight. Many of us are perfectly capable of putting on fat, thank you very much, and that's exactly what happens when we try to force-feed our bodies with junk foods on a dirty bulk. The scale doesn't change -- the person in the mirror DOES, and it isn't for the better.

So, what are my goals and how should I achieve them? I simply want to be able to maintain a normal weight, relative to others of my height. I don't want to risk developing gastrointestinal problems, insulin resistance, and other documented health issues, not to mention decreased longevity, all of which are triggered as result of sustained, hyper-caloric dietary protocols.

The answer, for individuals such as myself, lies within altering the hormonal/physiological state of our bodies in order to "upwardly adjust" our natural weight. This is accomplished through a variety of means, many of which have only recently come to light.

For instance, hard gainers are prime candidates for hormonal supplementation with steroid compounds. In the future, the wisdom of this practice will come to be accepted by mainstream medicine.

Metabolic Typing is the wave of the future and it is already here, folks. It's no coincidence that cutting edge sports coaches such as Charles Poliquin are centering their training protocols around these principles.

But wait, your 60-year old GP has never heard of metabolic typing? Damn, it must be a crock in that case. Or not. Wake up people: It's high time the athletic/performance-oriented community got unhitched from it's mildly retarded brother, also known as Organized Medicine.

To conclude, I will point another gaping hole within the logic of the conventional bulking argument. Here it is:

You expect me to supersize my portions, neglect my health, and stop caring about my bodyfat level, just for the sake of putting on pounds. Fine. Let's say that I go through with it and succeed in putting on some weight.

Now what? That's right, I'm asking you what to do now.
You didn't actually think that I was going to go on eating cheeseburgers on a daily basis for the rest of my life, did you?

Exactly how many years were you suggesting that I force-feed myself almost to the point of gagging? 5? 10? 20, perhaps? Surely, by now, the utter insanity of this proposal is coming to light.

And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, "Throwing calories at a problem," never solves one. This has got to be most idiotic protocol ever dumped on the bodybuilding community. Dump the old ways or you'll end up getting dumped with them.
 
tparisi

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Contradiction

You expect me to supersize my portions, neglect my health, and stop caring about my bodyfat level, just for the sake of putting on pounds.

For instance, hard gainers are prime candidates for hormonal supplementation with steroid compounds. In the future, the wisdom of this practice will come to be accepted by mainstream medicine.
Wait what? Too much food is bad, but...? lol
 
RenegadeRows

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Your advising people to use steroids? Instead of eating more?
 

quigley

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So, the solution to one's inability to maintain a normal weight is to eat junk food, put on bodyfat, and generally be as unhealthy as possible?

A few years years from now, people in the athletic community are going to look back through the lens of history at these "massive bulking" protocols and see them as a clear indication of an ignorant and primitive time. Let me tell you, gentlemen, this kind of talk won't reflect well on us down the road.

Here's why:

As an underweight person, I am compelled to reveal a secret that those of you who are at or above normal weight will never figure out on your own. Ready for this? Here we go:

A person's natural weight is dictated less by how he eats than by his unique hormonal and genetic makeup.

Scandalous isn't it? Here's the kicker: The proponents of "massive bulking" tend to be self-professed "former skinny bastards" who supposedly "came to see the light" when they adopted said protocols. Many of them freely admit that, before they gained their newfound mass, they never put any serious effort into eating, and this is what kept them skinny. It is precisely at this stage that the bulking doctrine suffers it's most critical flaw. To wit: If you weren't eating any significant amount of food prior to going through your "transformation", then you were never a "hardgainer" in the first place -- you are nothing more than a normal person who was eating below average,, and once you normalized your eating habbits, you went up to a normal weight!

How much clearer does it need to be? You are NOT a hardgainer, and never have been, until you have had an above-average caloric consumption relative to your weight.

In my case, this means having to consume 3,000 calories per day to maintain a dry weight of 136 lbs. at a height of nearly 6'. I require 22 calories/lb. to maintain my weight, and experience has taught me that I need to take that up to about 26 in order to be able to put on any weight. Now replicate those calculations using your own statistics, current and former. Get the picture?

So, if someone eats normally, yet still maintains a below average weight, what should be done about it?

The bulking proponents have no viable answer to this question other than to offer their standard remedy:

"If something isn't working, simply throw calories at the problem".

No matter how much a person is already taking in relative to his bodyweight, he is simply told that it isn't enough and that he must increase his consumption even further. Pretty irresponsible, if you ask me. It's an impractical solution covering for a bad theory.

A lot of people who've never been underweight are under the impression that underweight individuals are necessarily lean and that they can "eat anything they want without putting on any fat". This is WRONG. Allow me to correct it: Underweight individuals can "eat anything they want" without putting on any weight. Many of us are perfectly capable of putting on fat, thank you very much, and that's exactly what happens when we try to force-feed our bodies with junk foods on a dirty bulk. The scale doesn't change -- the person in the mirror DOES, and it isn't for the better.

So, what are my goals and how should I achieve them? I simply want to be able to maintain a normal weight, relative to others of my height. I don't want to risk developing gastrointestinal problems, insulin resistance, and other documented health issues, not to mention decreased longevity, all of which are triggered as result of sustained, hyper-caloric dietary protocols.

The answer, for individuals such as myself, lies within altering the hormonal/physiological state of our bodies in order to "upwardly adjust" our natural weight. This is accomplished through a variety of means, many of which have only recently come to light.

For instance, hard gainers are prime candidates for hormonal supplementation with steroid compounds. In the future, the wisdom of this practice will come to be accepted by mainstream medicine.

Metabolic Typing is the wave of the future and it is already here, folks. It's no coincidence that cutting edge sports coaches such as Charles Poliquin are centering their training protocols around these principles.

But wait, your 60-year old GP has never heard of metabolic typing? Damn, it must be a crock in that case. Or not. Wake up people: It's high time the athletic/performance-oriented community got unhitched from it's mildly retarded brother, also known as Organized Medicine.

To conclude, I will point another gaping hole within the logic of the conventional bulking argument. Here it is:

You expect me to supersize my portions, neglect my health, and stop caring about my bodyfat level, just for the sake of putting on pounds. Fine. Let's say that I go through with it and succeed in putting on some weight.

Now what? That's right, I'm asking you what to do now.
You didn't actually think that I was going to go on eating cheeseburgers on a daily basis for the rest of my life, did you?

Exactly how many years were you suggesting that I force-feed myself almost to the point of gagging? 5? 10? 20, perhaps? Surely, by now, the utter insanity of this proposal is coming to light.

And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, "Throwing calories at a problem," never solves one. This has got to be most idiotic protocol ever dumped on the bodybuilding community. Dump the old ways or you'll end up getting dumped with them.

dunno if everyone agree's wid me...but, despite some pretty decent points in ur rant, ur attitude is arrogant, offensive and no one here is going to respect it :)
 
Al Shades

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Your advising people to use steroids? Instead of eating more?
Steroids/hormones/HRT is one POSSIBILITY, but not the ONLY possibility.

There are a number of changes that can be made before hormone supplementation is prescribed in a corrective role.

You don't start with steroids, you start with the basics: Nutritious Food and vitamins. Every "hardgainer" gets blood, saliva, and urinary testing done to determine his Test, E, immune markers, Cortisol, and Neurotransmitter levels. I have already had all of these tests taken for myself.

If you've ever read Poliquin's articles, you'll know that he's a stickler about vitamin and mineral levels in athletes. Why is that? Because he knows that they WORK -- this is not something that you can afford to ignore if you are interested in building muscle and strength.

If someone is unable to maintain a normal weight on a normal caloric consumption, then there is a REASON for that, and in most cases it has everything to do with that person's health and his unique hormonal profile.

In my case, I had elevated cortisol levels and depleted neurotransmitters. I found out that I was basically in phase 1 of adrenal burnout. I was also deficient in key minerals and vitamins.

Gee wiz, I wonder if big macs would have solved the problem?

When it comes right down to it, I'd rather have someone supplementing with anabolic hormones on a medically-supervised regimen to gain weight than going off on their own and ruining their body with excess food consumption over a period of many years. The latter approach is precisely how people develop metabolic diseases. This is what triggers the degeneration process known as AGING.

With hormone manipulation, anything is possible. You can do things such as raising a person's natural weight by adjusting his BMR, "spot reduce" in certain areas by altering hormone levels, and put someone in a metabolic state to burn fat and build muscle at the same time. The "unachievable" becomes achievable. That's why this school of thought represents the wave of the future.

The old-school, hypercaloric approach looks positively asinine in comparison.
 
bioman

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Well, there are varying degrees of "dirty" bulking and I like to think I do it in a quasi healthy way. I avoid most sugars and high GI carbs, avoid sat fats and replace them with good fats whenever possible et cetera...but am prone to indulge in more than one cheat day per week when bulking.

I think the biggest mistake I used to make aside from not hammering down enough protein was simply overtraining. Now I train far less and gain and retain far more regardless of supplement use in general.
 
SteelEntity

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Al Shades the fact is if you are skinny and YOU want to put on mass then the problem is a lack on calories to feed your body beyond maintenance and put on additional mass, whether this be fat or muscle is dependent on how smart one trains. It is not a flawed concept. There are very few certainties when it comes to body building, one of them is to build muscle you must give your body the calories to do so. Muscles = calories. You can't build something with nothing.

Enough **** in life is way over complicated. eat.sleep.train.
 

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Al, I agree with you to a degree. I have worked with Charles in the past and made huge progress using his principles, but you are talking in extremes. Charles himself gave me a hyperaloric diet to gain lean tissue. You can eat a hypercaloric diet while eating "clean" foods. Lean protein, fruits, vegetables, other fibrous carbs, and EFA's, do cardio, and train intensely, having a high g-flux and can gain muscle and stay lean, while keeping insulin levels, hdl/ldl, liver values, etc in a very healthy range.

Eating large quantities of ****ty food for long periods of time will (could) result in insulin resistance, other negative health issues, etc...
 

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I agree to a point as well, for example I'm a skinny little guy as well, and when I did start eating more I did gain some poundage, but then I didnt and still have not gained more and more, even though I do eat more...you have a few good points, and I'm going to consider some of them...
Thanks!
 
AZZA

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Shades you worry too much, just start eating more than you currently do and eat cleanly, train hard, rest and stay off the scales for a few weeks and have a look.
AZZA
 

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There are so many things wrong with that long ass post, it would be too much work to point them all out.
 

nelix

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To get big you must eat.
To get ripped you must train.
They do not work stand alone.
 
Al Shades

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Shades you worry too much, just start eating more than you currently do and eat cleanly, train hard, rest and stay off the scales for a few weeks and have a look.
AZZA
I already train hard and consistently, I've already increased my caloric intake multiple times, I already get plenty of quality rest, and I don't "worry" about anything and I only check the scale a few times per week. I'm doing absolutely everything the "right" way. I'm not new at this.

You are confusing my depth of knowledge about this subject as an indication of "worry". It is nothing of the sort. I've adapted to my condition and learned to work with what I have.
The things you mention simply don't work in all cases. You will NOT put on weight when your hormonal state is not in a position to sustain it.

I eat the most anabolic foods and have turned rest/recovery into an artform. Still, no weight gain. That's not to say that I don't carry any muscle on my frame. I do. But I'm about to start a partial bulk phase with 3.6-4,000 cal on training days. We'll see how that goes. I'll be doing either an epistane, HD or 1,4 bold cycle soon as well.

Al Shades the fact is if you are skinny and YOU want to put on mass then the problem is a lack on calories to feed your body beyond maintenance and put on additional mass, whether this be fat or muscle is dependent on how smart one trains. It is not a flawed concept. There are very few certainties when it comes to body building, one of them is to build muscle you must give your body the calories to do so. Muscles = calories. You can't build something with nothing.

Enough **** in life is way over complicated. eat.sleep.train.
You can't build something with nothing, but that doesn't mean that everything you cram down your throat is going to get turned into muscle by your body. Get it? You're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. The "problem" is NOT necessarily a lack of calories. It's a shame that you seem to be unable to acknowledge that.

I'll be the first one to admit that human physiology is complicated. But so what? So are anabolics. And supplements. And many other topics that are routinely brought up on this board. What I wrote is complicated but it's true and it's not going away, so deal with it.

By the way, my prediction is that now, a whole bunch of people are going to "feed me" the line about eating more and getting enough rest. Save it, people - I just wrote an entire essay in response to that very point. You can't bring up the same point again to respond to the essay, lol (not that most of you will read it).
 

quigley

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I already train hard and consistently, I've already increased my caloric intake multiple times, I already get plenty of quality rest, and I don't "worry" about anything and I only check the scale a few times per week. I'm doing absolutely everything the "right" way. I'm not new at this.

You are confusing my depth of knowledge about this subject as an indication of "worry". It is nothing of the sort. I've adapted to my condition and learned to work with what I have.
The things you mention simply don't work in all cases. You will NOT put on weight when your hormonal state is not in a position to sustain it.

I eat the most anabolic foods and have turned rest/recovery into an artform. Still, no weight gain. That's not to say that I don't carry any muscle on my frame. I do. But I'm about to start a partial bulk phase with 3.6-4,000 cal on training days. We'll see how that goes. I'll be doing either an epistane, HD or 1,4 bold cycle soon as well.



You can't build something with nothing, but that doesn't mean that everything you cram down your throat is going to get turned into muscle by your body. Get it? You're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. The "problem" is NOT necessarily a lack of calories. It's a shame that you seem to be unable to acknowledge that.

I'll be the first one to admit that human physiology is complicated. But so what? So are anabolics. And supplements. And many other topics that are routinely brought up on this board. What I wrote is complicated but it's true and it's not going away, so deal with it.

By the way, my prediction is that now, a whole bunch of people are going to "feed me" the line about eating more and getting enough rest. Save it, people - I just wrote an entire essay in response to that very point. You can't bring up the same point again to respond to the essay, lol (not that most of you will read it).
You are arguing that a calorie surplus cannot help people with a 'incorrect hormonal state?' gain weight?

Do you care to specify what an incorrect hormonal state, and which particular hormones are preventing natural bodily function? From what ive read of your arguments you seem to insinuate that your inordinary hormonal states makes yoru maintenance levels much higher. Well...thats confusing, because you seem to at one strand be arguing that hormones are stopping you gaining weight because they raise your metabolic need...but on the other strand your arguing hormones are preventing your weight gain irrespective of your metabolic need or how much energy your body is recieving, thats its more a hormonal state which prevents anabolic processes.

Now...if its the first, then everyone on this site does not begrudge that your hormonal state might raise your energy needs substansially, and you might be unlucky in that you need alot of energy to get into surplus. But if its only a raised metabolic need due to hormones thats the problem here, everyone is indeed correct in that more calories will solve the problem. Thats not a bodybuilding doctrine, but a physiological and chemical science- ENERGY IN VS ENERGY OUT.

Now, if its the second, you'd be dead. Because if a hormonal state was inhibiting anabolic processes in your body, simple things like sperm creation, skin renewal, red blood cell creation would all stop. Or did you forget? They are all processes of the body using energy to create new cells, new molecules, new tissues?

So, your in depth knowledge seems a little circular and roundabout...
 
EasyEJL

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You are arguing that a calorie surplus cannot help people with a 'incorrect hormonal state?' gain weight?

Do you care to specify what an incorrect hormonal state, and which particular hormones are preventing natural bodily function? From what ive read of your arguments you seem to insinuate that your inordinary hormonal states makes yoru maintenance levels much higher. Well...thats confusing, because you seem to at one strand be arguing that hormones are stopping you gaining weight because they raise your metabolic need...but on the other strand your arguing hormones are preventing your weight gain irrespective of your metabolic need or how much energy your body is recieving, thats its more a hormonal state which prevents anabolic processes.

Now...if its the first, then everyone on this site does not begrudge that your hormonal state might raise your energy needs substansially, and you might be unlucky in that you need alot of energy to get into surplus. But if its only a raised metabolic need due to hormones thats the problem here, everyone is indeed correct in that more calories will solve the problem. Thats not a bodybuilding doctrine, but a physiological and chemical science- ENERGY IN VS ENERGY OUT.

Now, if its the second, you'd be dead. Because if a hormonal state was inhibiting anabolic processes in your body, simple things like sperm creation, skin renewal, red blood cell creation would all stop. Or did you forget? They are all processes of the body using energy to create new cells, new molecules, new tissues?

So, your in depth knowledge seems a little circular and roundabout...
No, it mostly sounds like he's pretty well reached or nearly reached his genetic max for what testosterone his body currently produces, and raising his calories further just adds fat, and not muscle mass.
 

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No, it mostly sounds like he's pretty well reached or nearly reached his genetic max for what testosterone his body currently produces, and raising his calories further just adds fat, and not muscle mass.

If his testosterone is spent, then thats a medical issuse he needs to get some help with, cause at his weight and height, thats not natural...this guy is like 136lb.

As far as genetic max goes our bodies are designed to cope with stress, so even if his body is genetically small, it will still protect itself by building muscle if needed. The only reason he could not build muscle with sufficient calories, training and rest is like you said, a lack of testosterone, but if your correct in assuming that that is no reason to condemn what everyone on here teaches :)
 
AZZA

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Shades, yes you are knowledgable on the topic and obviously know your body, you might be the king of hardgainers. Best of luck with your supp cycle.
AZZA
PS i was a hard gainer. Trained for 16 years and finaly worked out where i was wrong.
 
Al Shades

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You are arguing that a calorie surplus cannot help people with a 'incorrect hormonal state?' gain weight?

Do you care to specify what an incorrect hormonal state, and which particular hormones are preventing natural bodily function? From what ive read of your arguments you seem to insinuate that your inordinary hormonal states makes yoru maintenance levels much higher. Well...thats confusing, because you seem to at one strand be arguing that hormones are stopping you gaining weight because they raise your metabolic need...but on the other strand your arguing hormones are preventing your weight gain irrespective of your metabolic need or how much energy your body is recieving, thats its more a hormonal state which prevents anabolic processes.

Now...if its the first, then everyone on this site does not begrudge that your hormonal state might raise your energy needs substansially, and you might be unlucky in that you need alot of energy to get into surplus. But if its only a raised metabolic need due to hormones thats the problem here, everyone is indeed correct in that more calories will solve the problem. Thats not a bodybuilding doctrine, but a physiological and chemical science- ENERGY IN VS ENERGY OUT.

Now, if its the second, you'd be dead. Because if a hormonal state was inhibiting anabolic processes in your body, simple things like sperm creation, skin renewal, red blood cell creation would all stop. Or did you forget? They are all processes of the body using energy to create new cells, new molecules, new tissues?

So, your in depth knowledge seems a little circular and roundabout...
I am, indeed, arguing for the second point and the second point only.

All of the effects you mention do, indeed, occur, but you are incorrect to suggest that this condition must result in death. Death does not occur right away. What does occur is aging, which is the conventional term for an agglomeration of symptoms of metabolic disease. The human body is capable of persisting in a diseased state for a very long time.

As far as the individual hormones are concerned, that's where it gets complicated and unique to the individual. My own knowledge is based on my perspective as someone who has suffered from adrenal fatigue and is now recovering.

There is a fantastic book which deals with precisely the same issue.

Amazon.com: The Schwarzbein Principle II: The "Transition" - A Regeneration Program to Prevent and Reverse Accelerated Aging: Books: Diana Schwarzbein,Marilyn Brown

Written by a progressive-minded endrocrinologist, this book puts to rest 90% of the popular myths that float around bodybuilding circles. "Calories in, calories out" is one of the first to go. The author explains, in detail, how people become fixated on changing their weight to become healthy, when they must really become healthy FIRST, before they can change their weight.

She groups metabolic diseases into 4 major categories:
Insulin sensitive w/healthy adrenals (optimal)
Insulin resistant w/health adrenals
Insulin sensitive w/burned-out adrenals (my former condition)
Insulin resistant w/burned out-adrenals (worst case)

After reading this, I understood that my inability to gain weight was related to the same underlying problem that some people had in being unable to lose weight. In both cases, the solution is to tackle the problem at the source - not to keep cutting or adding calories and hoping that something will change.

It's not as simple as adding on calories until you reach and surpass your [theoretical] maintenance. There is a certain point beyond which the body doesn't want to go. 2 years ago, when I first tried bulking with 4,000 calories per day (with strict adherence to bodybuilding gospel), I knew that I had reached the upper limit because I had constant digestive problems and bad bloating. I was walking around with a mini Ron-Coleman gut. Let me tell you, distended stomachs look worse on skinny people than they do on big people. I knew that that wasn't the proper way to go about things.

I did further research, this time focusing on the "health" aspect of things and shunning the "meathead wisdom", and I learned that my adrenal condition was resulting in low levels of digestive enzymes and stomach acid. So, I started supplementation to correct those things, and my symptoms gradually improved. Nearly eliminating carbs from my diet also helped greatly.

I mean, it's so much more complicated than "calories in, calories out" that a lot more people who consider themselves educated need to get with the program.

Develop a basic understanding of endocrinology, as I have. It will suit you very well in your bodybuilding pursuits. You can't really claim to know your **** if you don't understand how the major hormones work: Test, E, insulin, cortisol, Thyroid, neurotransmitters, etc..

I am really tired of reading this "massive bulking" tripe in places where people ought to know better. Yea, go ahead and tell newbies about the importance of eating to sustain growth, but at the end of the day, you need to know that there is far more to it than simply calories. I'm pretty sure the bulking stuff got it's start in the 1950's or earlier, when food wasn't exactly plentiful and there was actually a social stigma against eating a lot (even for certain athletes, like boxers). That no longer exists today, so stop flogging the dead horse. MOST people today are eating "enough". Caloric INTAKE isn't the problem, so much as the QUALITY of what's being eaten and other factors which contribute to a person's ability to gain weight.

No, it mostly sounds like he's pretty well reached or nearly reached his genetic max for what testosterone his body currently produces, and raising his calories further just adds fat, and not muscle mass.
Interestingly enough, on paper, my stats are actually quite good. 900+ total T, 160 free as of this April. E2 value <40. Just had a neuroadrenal profile done and my cortisol has gone down and my neurotransmitters are coming back to normal. My DHEA blasted up from ~300 in April to ~1200 at the end of August (Thanks, Reset AD). I'm underweight but not "skinny" in the classic sense of the word. Everyone assumes I weigh at least 160. I actually gain visible muscle mass quite easily...the scale simply doesn't change.

Let me put it this way: I am the oddest case that I've ever come across, and still a work in progress. The verdict on me is not out yet. Day 1 of my "smart bulk" starts tomorrow. It's going to be 4 days @ 4,000 F/P/C, 3 days@ 3,000 F+P only. I'd prefer to avoid carbs altogether but that gets awfully difficult at about 2,500 cals. Probably get some halodrol going real soon.
 

quigley

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well...i do know my '*****' :) I''m in my second year of medical school. My only problem with what your saying is that is seemed to me as if you were condemning everyones view on bulking.
You are a rare case, one which is fixable, but i don't see why you should have rushed into a bulking thread and lectured everyone on why their bulking theories were wrong when you admit your hormonal problems are far from commonplace?

To me it seems like you just wanted to rush around and convince everyone of your intellectual capabilities, to be honest
 
SteelEntity

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Al Shades you describe yourself as a guru of bodybuilding, yet you obviously don't know what the **** you are doing if you weigh 136 pounds. Ever think that the training regiment you have come to adopt is not right for you?

As mentioned already maybe you produce the testosterone of an 11 year old girl. Maybe you should get it checked out if you really feel you are doing everything right. No way do I believe you have reached your genetic potential.

Reading your arrogant posts really busts my balls because you seem to think your take on building muscle is written is stone.
Don't you ****ing dare say you have eating and resting down to an art form. No one on this planet can say that let alone some skinny bastard claiming his theories are unquestionable.

Post some pics of yourself. According to how confident you make your self out to be, you should be at Mr. O next year. There is likely little point on even sharing our thoughts with you as you disregard them and substitute your take on bodybuilding as the right one.

You make some good points but anyone can preach what they think is right without putting in the time to see if it works on themselves. Swallow your ego and try something new if it is not working.
 

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