Epistane the anabolic GYNO destroyer

[PGJPB]

P.S. I apologize for asking so many questions and contributing little or nothing. Hopefully if I give some of this a shot I can contribute with a log. Thanks again for any help.

 

[neoborn]

I have added some Gyno type information to the Epistane FAQ in my signature. The section is called "Problems & Answers" etc.

I would suggest you post either in the Pulse thread where Dr.D goes alot or pm him on this one!

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[PGJPB]

I have added some Gyno type information to the Epistane FAQ in my signature. The section is called "Problems & Answers" etc.

I would suggest you post either in the Pulse thread where Dr.D goes alot or pm him on this one!

Much Love,

Neoborn

I saw that in your FAQ, which btw was very helpful so thank you.
Thanks for the advice, i suppose I could just ask him what he thinks.

 

[Endure80]

Can Epistane be stacked with BAM and Pro-Anabol by ALRI? Is it overkill?

 

[mmowry]

I wouldnt stack it if youre on a full cycle of Epistane but rather run it during pct or on off days when pulsing.

 

[mmowry]

BTW 8 months and still no gyno!

 

[DR.D]

BTW 8 months and still no gyno!

Oh yeah, placebo effect I tell you! You've just WILLED the gyno away with your mind powers, that's all. lol :hammer:

 

[neoborn]

Dr.D can you give PGJPB feedback on his previous post relative to gyno?

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[animalkrack3r]

I might start my own thread for this, but I'd thought I'd just give it a shot here first. First of all, ignore my low post amount. I've been coming here for a few years and just like reading. I've researched this subject quite bit so I'm hoping I can get some clarification on Epi.

1) I have never used any anabolics before, and I never really planned on it. However, I have been reading about the gyno reducing effects of Epistane and became interested. I could care less for the body building aspect of the stuff, I am more interested in the gyno reduction.

2) I have very mild gyno, in fact I never really knew I had it until I started going to these boards. I went to a surgeon and was told it would be about $5K to remove it, all soft in case that matter.

3) I've never tried anything to reduce my gyno, but it is so small that even a slight reduction would be great. When people say Epi can reduce gyno, are we talking gyno from puberty? Or people who got it recently from AS?

4) When I first researched it, my first thought was "Why not?" because $100-$200 cycle of this stuff is cheaper than the $5000 I've been saving up. But then I started reading about people getting gyno on Epistane which makes this seem not worth it because it will only make my problem worse.

5) Off topic, in the pulsing (which seems great and I wouldn't mind giving a shot, however I've read it isn't as effective as a straight dosing) thread, Dr. D mentions a "comprehensive gyno attack plan" which includes "using 30mg daily for not less than a month is the optimal protocol it seems for the fastest reduction." (Page 6 of the thread)
I believe he's just referring to a combination of gyno reducing measures all used in conjunction, but if somebody could point me in the right direction or help me connect some of the dots that would be great. I posted this here, because it seems like Epistane is becoming popular with gyno reduction.
I'd like to consider some alternatives to gyno reduction before I commit to the expensive route, so any help would be great, thanks.

Check out letro.

 

[DR.D]

Dr.D can you give PGJPB feedback on his previous post relative to gyno?

Much Love,

Neoborn

Got him on PM.

 

[PGJPB]

Got him on PM.

Haha, much appreciated. I've been following these threads closely, and hopefully I'll take any help to share my future exerience and lend a hand.

 

[DR.D]

I might start my own thread for this, but I'd thought I'd just give it a shot here first. First of all, ignore my low post amount. I've been coming here for a few years and just like reading. I've researched this subject quite bit so I'm hoping I can get some clarification on Epi.

1) I have never used any anabolics before, and I never really planned on it. However, I have been reading about the gyno reducing effects of Epistane and became interested. I could care less for the body building aspect of the stuff, I am more interested in the gyno reduction.

2) I have very mild gyno, in fact I never really knew I had it until I started going to these boards. I went to a surgeon and was told it would be about $5K to remove it, all soft in case that matter.

3) I've never tried anything to reduce my gyno, but it is so small that even a slight reduction would be great. When people say Epi can reduce gyno, are we talking gyno from puberty? Or people who got it recently from AS?

4) When I first researched it, my first thought was "Why not?" because $100-$200 cycle of this stuff is cheaper than the $5000 I've been saving up. But then I started reading about people getting gyno on Epistane which makes this seem not worth it because it will only make my problem worse.

5) Off topic, in the pulsing (which seems great and I wouldn't mind giving a shot, however I've read it isn't as effective as a straight dosing) thread, Dr. D mentions a "comprehensive gyno attack plan" which includes "using 30mg daily for not less than a month is the optimal protocol it seems for the fastest reduction." (Page 6 of the thread)
I believe he's just referring to a combination of gyno reducing measures all used in conjunction, but if somebody could point me in the right direction or help me connect some of the dots that would be great. I posted this here, because it seems like Epistane is becoming popular with gyno reduction.
I'd like to consider some alternatives to gyno reduction before I commit to the expensive route, so any help would be great, thanks.

I got your PM, sorry it took so long to get back! Yes, I have seen this work on cases of old, pubertal gyno, mowry for example. Also, I have talked to about a half dozen guys that actually canceled their gyno surgery after an epi cycle so it can be very dramatic in it's gyno fighting effects. It's not only an estrogen receptor substrate (could be called a SERM or pseudo-estrogen also) to block estrogen expression, but also androgenic so it antagonizes estrogen in effect. Plus, by virtue of it's A-ring reduced structure, it's probably a mild AI or at the very least does not contribute to estrogen levels because it can't form estrogens, so it's tailor made to crush gyno. There are some cases where is does not seem to help much, at least not without a second cycles, and now a few cases where it may even seem to have contributed somehow but this is the exception and very very rare. ER sub-receptors are different in everyone and there is a sigmoid curve in all populations. I still think it's your best option and well worth a shot before you go under the knife.

I would take not less than 30mg daily for 4-8wks depending on response and stack it with an AI too. I have seen rapid results with 6-Br and ATD based products, or go with something like letro. Also, limit caffeine in your diet.

 

[edwards]

I'm sure its been discussed before, but why limit caffeine? Thanks a head of time.

 

[DR.D]

I'm sure its been discussed before, but why limit caffeine? Thanks a head of time.

It can increase estrogen levels, once you exceed a certain amount like 500mg/d for the average guy, but maybe much less if you're gyno prone.

 

[edwards]

thanks dude

 

[PGJPB]

It can increase estrogen levels, once you exceed a certain amount like 500mg/d for the average guy, but maybe much less if you're gyno prone.

First off, awesome response and help. I think I'll give it a shot and log it.

Second, WOW! I had no idea about the caffein. Did you mean on Epistane, or all the time? Because I never realized it could be dangerous when doing somehting like an ECA stack and taking 400-600mg of caffein a day

 

[DR.D]

First off, awesome response and help. I think I'll give it a shot and log it.

Second, WOW! I had no idea about the caffein. Did you mean on Epistane, or all the time? Because I never realized it could be dangerous when doing somehting like an ECA stack and taking 400-600mg of caffein a day

Yes! All the time. Caff increases E2 levels.

 

[PGJPB]

Ok, I'm trying to sort out a possible gyno destruction cycle.

Here's what I THINK I'll be doing. (Part of the reason I'm posting this is in hopes that people can point out what I'm forgetting).

It'll be a ED cycle, as that seems to be the most effective at knocking out gyno.
I'll have my usuals included.

Multi-Vits w/ minerals
CEE
Fish Oil
ON Whey
Green Tea Extract
Green Phyto Foods
I have yellow gold but I'll drop it until post cycle (ok?)
Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support (not sure when to take this exactly, AM/PM twice a day?)

Epistane - right now I'm debating on the dosage. Dr. D said no less than 30mg, and I've read 40mgs to be the best for knocking out gyno.
I am thinking 30/40/40/40/40
Dr. D suggested running an AI while on it, which is going to be Hyperdrol X-2 (also reccomended by Dr. D)
But I'm not sure how to dose this while on cycle

Post Cycle
Torm at Days 1-4: 120mg | Week 2: 90mg | Week 3: 60mg | Week 4: 30mg (as reccomended by neoborn)
and also going to run Hyperdrol X-2 and MassFX as well as continuing cycle support and other supps + yellow gold
I'll be running these as reccomended by the product? Help with this would be most appreciated because I am constantly confused
by the different brands and versions of these prodcuts. I see people using things like retain, jungle warfare, restore, etc and I'm not
100% sure on these things.

Oh, and my diet and training are awesome. I'll jack the calories up a fair amount, but nothing drastic.


If this gets rid of my gyno I'm ordering champagne for Dr. D and Neoborn


Thoughts?

 

[bioman]

Update.


Finished Epi cycle and it reduced, but did not totally eliminate this gyno outbreak. Played with doses from 40 down to 10 mg er day with letro and even with ATD.

Very stubborn this time, methinks brought on by hyperthyroid-like state and possibly caffeine binge ala too much RPM for too long.

Starting another round of ATD tomorrow with Torm or nolva.

 

[neoborn]

If this gets rid of my gyno I'm ordering champagne for Dr. D and Neoborn


Thoughts?

I have some thoughts, just send me a bottle of TForce or um something fun to test : )

Actually just a positive feedback post would be enough for me I do this for love .....not money

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[PGJPB]

I have some thoughts, just send me a bottle of TForce or um something fun to test : )

Actually just a positive feedback post would be enough for me I do this for love .....not money

Much Love,

Neoborn

So do you think my plan looks pretty good?
Any changes I should think about making and maybe some help with what you think might be best to run with the Epistane that might help with gyno (ie hyperdrol x-2, letro)?

Not sure if any of those things will help at all. I saw you posted this earlier "Epi + Formestane + Penetrate + HDX2 + X-Lean" Looks promising, but would HDX2 be ok to run with it alone?

Thanks, that's my last tweak I need to make I think.

 

[Red Dog]

I'll be pulsing epi in the near future and I have a significant amount of (what I'm convinced) is gyno .. could be pseudo but am currently trying to cut bf% down far enough to sort that distinction out .. but back to my point, I'll post my results in terms of gyno reduction on here whenever I complete that pulse .. just thought I'd let you doodz know :type:

 

[neoborn]

So do you think my plan looks pretty good?
Any changes I should think about making and maybe some help with what you think might be best to run with the Epistane that might help with gyno (ie hyperdrol x-2, letro)?

Not sure if any of those things will help at all. I saw you posted this earlier "Epi + Formestane + Penetrate + HDX2 + X-Lean" Looks promising, but would HDX2 be ok to run with it alone?

Thanks, that's my last tweak I need to make I think.

1. D or others would be better to answer the Gyno questions.

2. HDX2 is best taken every day 2 - 4 caps

3. Yes you can run HDX2 as a stand alone.

 

[PGJPB]

I'll be pulsing epi in the near future and I have a significant amount of (what I'm convinced) is gyno .. could be pseudo but am currently trying to cut bf% down far enough to sort that distinction out .. but back to my point, I'll post my results in terms of gyno reduction on here whenever I complete that pulse .. just thought I'd let you doodz know :type:

That'd be awesome. I'd love to see how effective it is at reducing gyno during a pulse.

 

[PGJPB]

Also, last question hopefully before I make my final decision on my gameplan.

Dr. D mentioned several posts above about running letro with Epi, which I think would probably be my best bet at attempting to get rid of gyno.

What would be the best dosing? Just do a typical dosing like I was running it solo, or should I change it much for Epi?
And I am assuming letro would be a no go for a pulse run of Epistane, correct?

I once researched letro extensively before, because I was going to run it but was convinced that it wouldn't help my gyno. It was recently brought to my attention, however that I would be a perfect candidate for its effectivness because when talking with a surgeon about getting gyno removed he 1) thought I didn't have very much and was suprised I was so concerned over it, B) said it was zero hard tissue and all soft, and 3) wasn't going to cut out anything but just do lipo.
From what I understand people who have success with Letro have cases similar to mine.

Anyways, I figure between Letro and Epistane I should have a good shot.

 

[DR.D]

Also, last question hopefully before I make my final decision on my gameplan.

Dr. D mentioned several posts above about running letro with Epi, which I think would probably be my best bet at attempting to get rid of gyno.

What would be the best dosing? Just do a typical dosing like I was running it solo, or should I change it much for Epi?
And I am assuming letro would be a no go for a pulse run of Epistane, correct?

I once researched letro extensively before, because I was going to run it but was convinced that it wouldn't help my gyno. It was recently brought to my attention, however that I would be a perfect candidate for its effectivness because when talking with a surgeon about getting gyno removed he 1) thought I didn't have very much and was suprised I was so concerned over it, B) said it was zero hard tissue and all soft, and 3) wasn't going to cut out anything but just do lipo.
From what I understand people who have success with Letro have cases similar to mine.

Anyways, I figure between Letro and Epistane I should have a good shot.

Do you want to pulse or not? I suggest a conventional, daily dose method if this is a pure gyno attack cycle designed for acute regression.

 

[EasyEJL]

It can increase estrogen levels, once you exceed a certain amount like 500mg/d for the average guy, but maybe much less if you're gyno prone.

whaaa? 500mg of caffeine increases estrogen? oh damn, that might explain a lot

 

[DR.D]

whaaa? 500mg of caffeine increases estrogen? oh damn, that might explain a lot

Yes, at least in woman it is well proven. In the average man, it may take a lot more, but in the gyno prone man that might be more than enough!

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes, at least in woman it is well proven. In the average man, it may take a lot more, but in the gyno prone man that might be more than enough!

damn, I can't recall when i've had less than 500mg in a day. Thank god I don't have man titties i guess

 

[DR.D]

Me too E, I probably average 500-700mg caff/day depending on my application. Why do you think I condone most men take a low dose AI just for health reasons? Between the 1000's the potent xenoestrogens in our environment and 100's of potential phytoestrogens in our food, it's no wonder there's so many whiny *****azz men these days that just don't know their role! I see the drama everywhere, the metro phenomenon, but it is generally not befitting of a man.

 

[EasyEJL]

Me too E, I probably average 500-700mg caff/day depending on my application. Why do you think I condone most men take a low dose AI just for health reasons? Between the 1000's the potent xenoestrogens in our environment and 100's of potential phytoestrogens in our food, it's no wonder there's so many whiny *****azz men these days that just don't know their role! I see the drama everywhere, the metro phenomenon, but it is generally not befitting of a man.

hmm now I need to look into what is a nice low dose AI I can take year round without breaking the bank or other internal organs

 

[ugab37]

Me too E, I probably average 500-700mg caff/day depending on my application. Why do you think I condone most men take a low dose AI just for health reasons? Between the 1000's the potent xenoestrogens in our environment and 100's of potential phytoestrogens in our food, it's no wonder there's so many whiny *****azz men these days that just don't know their role! I see the drama everywhere, the metro phenomenon, but it is generally not befitting of a man.

I cannot tell you how much I love ur post(mainly the part about the 'metro phenomenon). Im with ya there. By the way, which AI do you prefer for and what dosage?

 

[bioman]

As for xenoestrogens et al, I agree and my last gyno episode really came out of nowhere. I hadn't used any PHs for 8-9 months. I looked pretty dry too.

I can only speculate what factor or combination of factors caused it to flare...caffeine, high thyroid output, DHEA use..but really, none of those were in the extreme at all and shouldn't have caused it.

Really makes you wonder sometimes.

BTW, other than my gyno not going away totally, my Epi cycle was like a dream. Nice smooth gains, no mental disturbances, no shortness of breath, and only occassional fatigue that was probably unrelated. It is the ONE I will use most.

Thanks Again D! :thumbsup:

 

[neoborn]

Just thought you guys would find this interesting in relation to Estrogen issues in our environment:

Saturday, January 05, 2002 NEWSLETTERS

Women who take birth control pills or hormone therapy are flushing
enough hormones down the toilet to make male fish downstream produce
eggs, a Canadian study shows.

Synthetic estrogen in the women's urine goes through sewage treatment
plants without being completely broken down, and the fish absorb it,
with bad effects following.

Male fish produce eggs in their testes. Female fish are stimulated by
the extra hormones to produce eggs at the wrong times of year.

And there are questions, still unanswered, about whether these
chemically altered fish are capable of reproducing at all.

Scientists have seen this "gender-bending" effect in fish downstream
from sewage plants, but lacked proof that birth control pills are a
cause.

So Karen Kidd of Fisheries and Oceans Canada started dribbling bits of
the synthetic hormone from birth control pills into a 34-hectare lake in
northwestern Ontario, west of Dryden, to find out. The lakes are so
remote they don't even have names (this one is called Lake 260) and are
perfectly suited to act as giant experiments because they are
practically untouched by pollution.

Sure enough, the male lake trout, white suckers, fathead minnows and
pearl dace turned up this fall with proteins that females use to
manufacture egg cells, and in some cases with the eggs themselves.

"The question now is whether this feminization is affecting the
population size or sustainability," she said. "Can males with eggs in
their testes reproduce effectively? Can they contribute to the
population?"

It will take another summer of adding chemicals, and a couple of years
of counting fish afterwards, to know the full effects. But Ms. Kidd is
finding an interested audience in Vancouver this weekend, where she will
show her early results to a conference of fisheries scientists.

"People consume the birth control pills and it's lost from their bodies
and goes into the sewage," said Peter Leavitt, a biology professor at
the University of Regina. "So we get this huge population in sources
like cities, dumping this very high concentration of hormones into the
water bodies. And the question is: Is it having an influence?

"It seems to be mimicking some of the reproductive hormones that other
organisms use, and it's basically messing up their reproductive
strategies," he said. "I think it's really significant," because no one
thought of human sewage as a source of this type of pollution before, he
said.

"And what Karen is showing is that there are consequence of large
numbers of people living in an area ... It's not so much that we're
destroying their (the wildlife's) habitat. But we're actually changing
the chemical environment in which they live and breathe."

Ms. Kidd says both natural and synthetic estrogen go into sewage in
urine, but bacteria take longer to break down the synthetic version,
which means more of it gets into the fish.

For 10 years scientists have studied chemicals that act like estrogen in
fish, other wildlife, and even humans that eat tainted fish. Many of
these come from pesticides or industrial waste and are never intended to
be like hormones at all. But this study is unique in looking at real
hormones flushed down the drain.

Ms. Kidd says both natural and synthetic estrogen go into the sewage
system in urine, but bacteria take longer to break down the synthetic
version, which means more of it gets into the fish.

The Lake 260 experiment uses the amount of hormone that would come from
6,000 women taking the pill, she said.

© Copyright 2002 The Ottawa Citizen

Identification and Quantification of Estrogen Receptor Agonists in Wastewater Effluents

Mineralization of Steroidal Hormones by Biosolids in Wastewater Treatment Systems in Tennessee U.S.A.

 

[thebigt]

hey neo, you live in canada right?:twisted: jk. btw that was some endorsement by bioman.:clap2:

 

[DR.D]

I cannot tell you how much I love ur post(mainly the part about the 'metro phenomenon). Im with ya there. By the way, which AI do you prefer for and what dosage?

As far as just a static, daily AI treatment to discourage the effects of environmental estrogen, I like...

50mg 6-Br > 150mg Formestane > 12.5mg ATD

Teslac and Exemestane have their place too, but require an Rx and are quite expensive.

I'm glad somebody else sees what's happing to us men! It's not good. Neo's post epitomizes the whole situation with the fish example. That's us guys, the fish down stream. It's in the food we eat, the contaminants in milk fat, the plastic, pesticides and industrial waste in our home and water supply, even the air we breath. Basically, you are going to feminize in the world today if you do not guard against it. More men get breast cancer now that ever before, but it can mostly be prevented with some smart preventative supplementation.

 

[neoborn]

No wonder I cry so much

 

[thebigt]

As far as just a static, daily AI treatment to discourage the effects of environmental estrogen, I like...

50mg 6-Br > 150mg Formestane > 12.5mg ATD

Teslac and Exemestane have their place too, but require an Rx and are quite expensive.

I'm glad somebody else sees what's happing to us men! It's not good. Neo's post epitomizes the whole situation with the fish example. That's us guys, the fish down stream. It's in the food we eat, the contaminants in milk fat, the plastic, pesticides and industrial waste in our home and water supply, even the air we breath. Basically, you are going to feminize in the world today if you do not guard against it. More men get breast cancer now that ever before, but it can mostly be prevented with some smart preventative supplementation.

so you are advocating low dose td formestane for long term? i hope so, td form is one of my favorites. give me a plan doc. please.

 

[DR.D]

No wonder I cry so much

Crying does not require high estrogen, contrary to popular belief! Only a heart. And yes, only a REAL man is strong enough to have a warm blooded circulatory function. So that's OK Neo, sometimes it takes a pretty big man to cry like a little girl.

Although progesterone does contribute to whining I'm convinced, lol.

 

[DR.D]

so you are advocating low dose td formestane for long term? i hope so, td form is one of my favorites. give me a plan doc. please.

Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.

 

[thebigt]

Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.

thanks doc, and remember-a friend of neo's is a friend indeed.:hammer: jk neo.:toofunny:

 

[jasonschaffin]

Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.

Since these are estrogens we are taking into our body would a low dose SERM be beneficial at all? Or maybe high dosed resveratrol (other than its many other benefits)? I would think that may be more protective than an AI. Or maybe a low dosed AI daily with a low dosed SERM (daily, or 3-4x/week?)? I don't know a ton about all the actions in the body of a SERM (I think Nolva could possibly be hard on the liver?). Or would just an AI be more than enough?

 

[EasyEJL]

well, jason brings up a question, Dr D, I don't recall reading too much that you've said either way about resveratrol. Care to share a tidbit?

 

[bioman]

One also has to consider that there's the possibility for some of these xenoestrogens to not respond to AI's or being displaced by SERMs. There's a lot we don't know yet.

But I do like the idea of low dose 6 bromo. Using trans 6-oxo now..but getting tired of the whole lotion thing. lol

 

[EasyEJL]

One also has to consider that there's the possibility for some of these xenoestrogens to not respond to AI's or being displaced by SERMs. There's a lot we don't know yet.

But I do like the idea of low dose 6 bromo. Using trans 6-oxo now..but getting tired of the whole lotion thing. lol

It puts the lotion into the basket.

 

[DR.D]

well, jason brings up a question, Dr D, I don't recall reading too much that you've said either way about resveratrol. Care to share a tidbit?

Yes, it has potential, but like Bio stated some of these estrogens have receptor affinities that would supersede Resveratrol no doubt. The AI is not complete coverage either because it only limits aromatization which is not necessarily required with these already active environmental estrogens, but at least it limits the compounding contributions of E2. Either one is better than nothing and a low dose of each is probably best.

 

[EasyEJL]

I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it

 

[DR.D]

I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it

I'd say ~300mg for a long term approach just for E control is plenty. Maybe even just 150 if stacked with a low dose AI too.

1g is more of an intentional test boosting or PCT type dose.

 

[yeahright]

I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it

You source it directly from a manufacturer or something?

 

[neoborn]

This low price interests me too. What is the best quality for the lowest price with the highest potency at the moment?

Much Love,

Neoborn