Seeking Input on AAS/PH Combos

[PL4Life]

Hey guys, appreciate any advice in advance. Quick background I've been powerlifting a bit over 10 years (32 years old now) and I only ran a cycle once last fall. The cycle I ran was very mild, androtest at 375mg/day and epistane (30/30/40/40/40/40) with a 6 week PCT of tamoxifen. I retained all of my strength gains and actually continued to make progress (albeit much slower) during and after my PCT. The most attractive thing about the epistane to me is that I only gained 3 lbs on cycle despite my competition lifts all improving materially (+15% or more over 6 weeks) - I need to be mindful of my weight as moving up a weight class would suck unless the strength gains are off the charts (unlikely for any compound over only 6 weeks).

I'm going to begin another cycle and would love some suggestions on which ones you guys would recommend. My goals in order of priority are strength, retaining gains post cycle, minimal weight gain, and lowest toxicity/sides (I know everything I'm doing will have this to an extent, but I want this balanced with risk/reward). Which do you guys think would be best for my goals/priorities? Thank you. Notes - each cycle will have the same PCT which is just tamoxifen for 4 weeks at 20mg/day and 2 weeks at 10mg/day. I have tamoxifen/caber/arimidex on hand. Androtest is used as a test base, worked great last cycle as my sex drive was unchanged (very high) and I had no lethargy. All Liquidien dosing is one drop per day.

1. Androtest (6 pills/day) only for 4 weeks followed by 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) + 6 pills per day of androtest continuing for a total of 10 weeks
2. Androtest (6 pills/day) only for 2 weeks followed by 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) + 6 pills per day of androtest continuing for a total of 8 weeks
3. Androtest (6 pills/day) + 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) for a total of 6 weeks
4. Androtest (6 pills/day) for 4 weeks + Liquidien (transdermal dienolone) followed by 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) + 6 pills per day of androtest continuing for a total of 10 weeks
5. Androtest (6 pills/day) for 2 weeks + Liquidien (transdermal dienolone) followed by 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) + 6 pills per day of androtest continuing for a total of 8 weeks
6. Androtest (6 pills/day) for 6 weeks + Liquidien (transdermal dienolone) + 6 weeks of epistane (40mg/day) for a total of 6 weeks

 

[Ironpirate]

Imo there's much better and far cheaper options. Just check out the supplement company section and company promotions for discounts. A lot of the guys on here promote some really good products.

 

[PL4Life]

Imo there's much better and far cheaper options. Just check out the supplement company section and company promotions for discounts. A lot of the guys on here promote some really good products.

Pirate - I already have everything required for any combination of the aforementioned cycles/PCT, so I'm just trying to optimize my combinations/dosing/duration for what I have currently. I will look into other things per your suggestion, but I am a huge fan of epistane so admittedly it would be difficult for me to be convinced of something else that can produce the strength gains it can while not making my weight class at risk, it's almost perfect sans the muscle spams and joint pain it causes for me. Thank you.

 

[Ironpirate]

Pirate - I already have everything required for any combination of the aforementioned cycles/PCT, so I'm just trying to optimize my combinations/dosing/duration for what I have currently. I will look into other things per your suggestion, but I am a huge fan of epistane so admittedly it would be difficult for me to be convinced of something else that can produce the strength gains it can while not making my weight class at risk, it's almost perfect sans the muscle spams and joint pain it causes for me. Thank you.

I see. I like the adrotest, it's just too overpriced and you are right about epistane, it's great but you will soon learn that it's a very harsh oral and because of the sides most people move on to other things.

I'd go with the 10 weeks of 4ad and the last six weeks at as high as you can with the epi. I've gone as high as 90mg per day but I don't recommend it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[johnny412]

I see. I like the adrotest, it's just too overpriced and you are right about epistane, it's great but you will soon learn that it's a very harsh oral and because of the sides most people move on to other things.

I'd go with the 10 weeks of 4ad and the last six weeks at as high as you can with the epi. I've gone as high as 90mg per day but I don't recommend it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

90 mg? damn i would have DIED!!!

 

[Ironpirate]

90 mg? damn i would have DIED!!!

The blood pressure and joint's were pushed to the limit for sure but the strength gains were just as good as 2mg a day of mtren.

 

[johnny412]

The blood pressure and joint's were pushed to the limit for sure but the strength gains were just as good as 2mg a day of mtren.

i have done 60. the stomach issues and indigestion is what got me...oh and the shin splints couldnt walk far lol

 

[Dmzjne]

I would think for superdrol for powerlifting. However if trying to stay in your weight class, that might be an issue.

I would suggest Dimethandrostenol (d-drol), however its pretty much gone nowadays. That stuff had me stronger than anything, and I gained very little weight from it. Also felt much cleaner compared to sd/ msten

 

[Hyde]

The more drugs you take and the longer you can take them, the stronger they will help you become. The 10 week cycle will allow the most steady progression. The 6 week where you use everything at once will be more explosive. You may also recover from that slightly faster, so if going into a meet that could be a better option, but 6 weeks isn’t a long time to cook.

 

[PL4Life]

The blood pressure and joint's were pushed to the limit for sure but the strength gains were just as good as 2mg a day of mtren.

Man I did 40mg and my joints hurt (really elbows not knees, upper body days were painful) and I could feel my blood pressure spike until I took a mountain of citrulline and taurine. Can't even fathom what 90mg feels like.

 

[PL4Life]

The more drugs you take and the longer you can take them, the stronger they will help you become. The 10 week cycle will allow the most steady progression. The 6 week where you use everything at once will be more explosive. You may also recover from that slightly faster, so if going into a meet that could be a better option, but 6 weeks isn’t a long time to cook.

Thank you, Hyde. I won't have another meet until fall/winter so whether I do 6 or 10 isn't a big deal currently with regards to timing concerns and my overall training cycle. I definitely want to recover the fastest, the primary reason for my hesitation with adding the dienolone is whether I'd have too many sides with that on top of the epistane and androtest and my secondary concern is weight gain.

I should have put this in my original post, but the way I look at it is simple. Let's say on just the test/epi my deadlift would go from 630 to 660, I would not add dienolone if it would only bump that up to 670 while giving me night sweats, really high blood pressure, etc. However, I would tolerate those sides with an ear to ear smile if it could increase the deadlift to 690.

 

[PL4Life]

I would think for superdrol for powerlifting. However if trying to stay in your weight class, that might be an issue.

I would suggest Dimethandrostenol (d-drol), however its pretty much gone nowadays. That stuff had me stronger than anything, and I gained very little weight from it. Also felt much cleaner compared to sd/ msten

Dmzjne - honestly I never heard of d-drol but I will take a look. With regards to superdrol, my concerns were/are too much weight gain and, from what I have heard but admittedly don't have experience with, is that the side effects are much worse than epistane (assuming a moderate dose on each). I have heard superdrol is awesome for strength so it's something I have considered but hearing about all the size/weight gains made me just order the epistane again for this cycle.

 

[Dmzjne]

Dmzjne - honestly I never heard of d-drol but I will take a look. With regards to superdrol, my concerns were/are too much weight gain and, from what I have heard but admittedly don't have experience with, is that the side effects are much worse than epistane (assuming a moderate dose on each). I have heard superdrol is awesome for strength so it's something I have considered but hearing about all the size/weight gains made me just order the epistane again for this cycle.

In my experience 40 mg of Epistane = 10 mg SD. Both of them are DHT derivatives, having similar side effects.

IMO 10 mg Superdrol + 30 mg Epi for six weeks > 40 - 80 mg Epistane

 

[Hyde]

Thank you, Hyde. I won't have another meet until fall/winter so whether I do 6 or 10 isn't a big deal currently with regards to timing concerns and my overall training cycle. I definitely want to recover the fastest, the primary reason for my hesitation with adding the dienolone is whether I'd have too many sides with that on top of the epistane and androtest and my secondary concern is weight gain.

I should have put this in my original post, but the way I look at it is simple. Let's say on just the test/epi my deadlift would go from 630 to 660, I would not add dienolone if it would only bump that up to 670 while giving me night sweats, really high blood pressure, etc. However, I would tolerate those sides with an ear to ear smile if it could increase the deadlift to 690.

If just for enhancing training then longer lower slower is the way. Think a milder 10 week than a more aggressive 6 week. That will yield more keepable gains vs more explosive ones that come and go.

In my personal experience, deadlift max is most effected most by current androgen use, squat by sheer bodyweight, and bench both. Like you can take all the gas you want, but if you stay light the squat will be limited. Or at least for me - if I get fat enough to have my belly pressing on my thighs it really changes things leverage-wise. Deadlift however I could barely gain weight and still if the androgens are high it’s going to zing up due to the enhanced neurology - gaining lots of weight/thickness often works against the deadlift. Bench is about upper body mass and supercharged neurology for me, so it kinda falls between the two as far as how important drugs can be for me.

TLDR: deadlift max gains driven up by drugs are the least keepable for me, so if not going into a comp then I wouldn’t push extra gear for the sake of temporary max gains that won’t stay around anyway. Focus on lean tissue and/or skill acquisition with the off-season cycle. Not saying the Dien won’t be good for this, but just going back to stretching a milder cycle out longer vs stacking it all for shorter.

 

[Leakydelts]

You should really consider reducing the orals and adding injectables, this is not a healthy way of doing things

 

[PL4Life]

If just for enhancing training then longer lower slower is the way. Think a milder 10 week than a more aggressive 6 week. That will yield more keepable gains vs more explosive ones that come and go.

In my personal experience, deadlift max is most effected most by current androgen use, squat by sheer bodyweight, and bench both. Like you can take all the gas you want, but if you stay light the squat will be limited. Or at least for me - if I get fat enough to have my belly pressing on my thighs it really changes things leverage-wise. Deadlift however I could barely gain weight and still if the androgens are high it’s going to zing up due to the enhanced neurology - gaining lots of weight/thickness often works against the deadlift. Bench is about upper body mass and supercharged neurology for me, so it kinda falls between the two as far as how important drugs can be for me.

TLDR: deadlift max gains driven up by drugs are the least keepable for me, so if not going into a comp then I wouldn’t push extra gear for the sake of temporary max gains that won’t stay around anyway. Focus on lean tissue and/or skill acquisition with the off-season cycle. Not saying the Dien won’t be good for this, but just going back to stretching a milder cycle out longer vs stacking it all for shorter.

I agree on the keeping more gains from the milder but longer cycle. Oddly enough, I have no real difference in the competition lifts with regards to how they stack up against each other while on cycle. I do, however, notice that when I lose a lot of bodyweight (like when I had Covid) that getting back into the gym my bench goes to crap while my squat/deadlift aren't really down too much.

May I ask, what sort of powerlifting training program are you utilizing? I have used the conjugate method from Westside for about 5 years and the dynamic effort (speed work) helped me tremendously; don't fall for the myth it only helps equipped lifters, it helps anyone who uses it correctly.

Thanks for your input, man, much appreciated.

 

[PL4Life]

You should really consider reducing the orals and adding injectables, this is not a healthy way of doing things

You are 100% correct, Leakydelts. No argument here. My rationale for doing the first two cycles with orals is as follows:
1) Allows me to dip my toe in the water
2) Shorter cycles also help me with getting used to how AAS feels before I hop on something longer
3) The marginal utility from injectables will be greater after using shorter/weaker cycles

 

[Hyde]

I agree on the keeping more gains from the milder but longer cycle. Oddly enough, I have no real difference in the competition lifts with regards to how they stack up against each other while on cycle. I do, however, notice that when I lose a lot of bodyweight (like when I had Covid) that getting back into the gym my bench goes to crap while my squat/deadlift aren't really down too much.

May I ask, what sort of powerlifting training program are you utilizing? I have used the conjugate method from Westside for about 5 years and the dynamic effort (speed work) helped me tremendously; don't fall for the myth it only helps equipped lifters, it helps anyone who uses it correctly.

Thanks for your input, man, much appreciated.

I have had the most competition success with 5th Set, but I have used the Cube method for a couple years and 5/3/1 here and there for certain things for years as well (which don’t do anything on their own anyway unless you can accurately assess and eliminate current weaknesses). I have also trained some strongman for a couple years and used some of Paul Carter’s & Josh Bryant’s applications of Dr. Squat’s CAT training ideology (also seen in 5th Set).

I don’t marry to any method: I chew up whatever meat I can find that works well for me and spit out the bone, same as Louie or any great coach would advise. For me, that means low frequency on squat and deadlift and VERY rarely pulling truly heavy. Bench should be trained a bit heavier, but I do not need to lift heavy in training to lift big in a meet - I need to lift only heavy enough to build muscle and technique that will transfer when it’s game day.

I have currently been getting back to squatting and pulling with some linear then 5/3/1-esque templates the last couple months and will be shifting to the Lilliebridge Method in a week or so to begin a 10 week prep. Andy Bolton also follows a very similar split and I have known raw guys personally who did well programmed by him directly. But this is just an experiment.