Sarm for PCT in Prohormone Cycle Question

[Spurfy]

The key factor you're missing is go grab some cheap bloodwork. It's cheaper than that bottle of exemestane you would run "just because"

You would need 3 sets of bloodwork to "decide" if an AI was needed: pre-PCT (establish baseline suppression), mid-PCT (establish steady-state values), post-PCT (establish post values).

A bottle of 30 x 25 mg pharma exemestane is $50.

 

[yates84]

Homeostasis? Are you joking?

Don't inject illegal drugs in an attempt to go beyond your genetic capacity to build muscle if you're looking for homeostasis. Eat right, sleep enough, train moderately, don't use drugs. There's homeostasis for you...

You're not making any sense....this is a pct discussion. The point that of pct is for your body to find homeostasis and adding in ais unnecessarily will negatively effect this process. Not sure how you went from that to telling me not to pin test lol

 

[yates84]

You would need 3 sets of bloodwork to "decide" if an AI was needed: pre-PCT (establish baseline suppression), mid-PCT (establish steady-state values), post-PCT (establish post values).

A bottle of 30 x 25 mg pharma exemestane is $50.

So...it's the wrong thing to do? Just don't come in here telling everyone that an ai in pct is mandatory when I know that you're smart enough to know better. I didn't say you were wrong, just giving the rest of the information you decided to leave out.

 

[Spurfy]

You're not making any sense....this is a pct discussion. The point that of pct is for your body to find homeostasis and adding in ais unnecessarily will negatively effect this process. Not sure how you went from that to telling me not to pin test lol

How?

Explain the precise mechanisms how adding an AI disturbs "finding homeostasis" (is that like finding Nemo?), yet a SERM, which has a much more potent, toxic, and less selective effect, does not.

I eagerly await your explanation...

 

[yates84]

How?

Explain the precise mechanisms how adding an AI disturbs "finding homeostasis" (is that like finding Nemo?), yet a SERM, which has a much more potent, toxic, and less selective effect, does not.

I eagerly await your explanation...

You're saying that if I use an ai in pct without necessity and crash my estrogen that I will recover as quick as I would if I would have not taken an ai and my estrogen remained in range? Smh...

 

[rtmilburn]

The risk-reward ratio says "Use an AI in PCT."

Risks of AI use: Driving E2 too low, in which case dose is reduced until symptoms are gone
Risks of no AI use: Long-term HPG-axis suppression due to elevated E2 after cessation/taper of SERM(s)

Rewards of AI use: Robust HPG-axis recovery after cessation/taper of SERM(s)
Rewards of no AI use: Save a few dollars

Why are you using hpga rather then the more medically used hpta? Not that its wrong, just every paper ive read uses hpta

 

[yates84]

Why are you using hpga rather then the more medically used hpta? Not that its wrong, just every paper ive read uses hpta

Testicular or gonadal axis, all the same thing just 2 different words for it.

 

[rtmilburn]

Testicular or gonadal axis, all the same thing just 2 different words for it.

I know just hpta is more commonly used.

 

[Spurfy]

Why are you using hpga rather then the more medically used hpta? Not that its wrong, just every paper ive read uses hpta

HPTA refers to hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis. HPGA refers to hypothamalic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Any other use is incorrect, and I don't care how many initials the person has after their name. It's a common mistake, generally made by those outside of the field of endocrinology, but a mistake nevertheless.

HPG-axis hormones during puberty: a study on the association with hypothalamic and pituitary volumes.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2010 Jan;35(1):133-40. doi: 10.1016/j.psyneuen.2009.05.025.

Molecular regulation of hypothalamus-pituitary-gonads axis in males.
Gene. 2014 Nov 1;551(1):15-25. doi: 10.1016/j.gene.2014.08.048. Epub 2014 Aug 26.

Hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in two men with aromatase deficiency: evidence that circulating estrogens are required at the hypothalamic level for the integrity of gonadotropin negative feedback.
Eur J Endocrinol. 2006 Oct;155(4):513-22.

 

[yates84]

HPTA refers to hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis. HPGA refers to hypothamalic-pituitary-gonadal axis. Any other use is incorrect, and I don't care how many initials the person has after their name. It's a common mistake, generally made by those outside of the field of endocrinology, but a mistake nevertheless.

HPG-axis hormones during puberty: a study on the association with hypothalamic and pituitary volumes.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2010 Jan;35(1):133-40. doi: 10.1016/j.psyneuen.2009.05.025.

Molecular regulation of hypothalamus-pituitary-gonads axis in males.
Gene. 2014 Nov 1;551(1):15-25. doi: 10.1016/j.gene.2014.08.048. Epub 2014 Aug 26.

Hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in two men with aromatase deficiency: evidence that circulating estrogens are required at the hypothalamic level for the integrity of gonadotropin negative feedback.
Eur J Endocrinol. 2006 Oct;155(4):513-22.

Good info, did not know this.

 

[Spurfy]

You're saying that if I use an ai in pct without necessity and crash my estrogen that I will recover as quick as I would if I would have not taken an ai and my estrogen remained in range? Smh...

Estradiol cannot remain in normal range on a SERM at common PCT dosages -- ITT aromatization is just too high. That's my whole point. Show me blood-work where a guy in PCT taking huge (ie, common PCT) doses of clomiphene and tamoxifen has an E2 < 40 and I'll retract my statement. I've never seen blood-work from anyone in PCT using common doses of SERMs with an E2 below 60. Never. Not once.

 

[yates84]

Estradiol cannot remain in normal range on a SERM at common PCT dosages -- ITT aromatization is just too high. That's my whole point. Show me blood-work where a guy in PCT taking huge (ie, common PCT) doses of clomiphene and tamoxifen has an E2 < 40 and I'll retract my statement. I've never seen blood-work from anyone in PCT using common doses of SERMs with an E2 below 60. Never. Not once.

I wouldn't have made this argument if my own bloodwork had not showed e2 to be in range, that was my whole point. Not just once either.

 

[Spurfy]

I wouldn't have made this argument if my own bloodwork had not showed e2 to be in range, that was my whole point. Not just once either.

Interesting. Just goes to show how differently aromatase functions in different people. Are you at all primary hypogonadal?

 

[yates84]

Interesting. Just goes to show how differently aromatase functions in different people. Are you at all primary hypogonadal?

Nope, test was always in the upper end of the range. Not a concern for me any more because I blast and cruise, getting too old for this pct crap. Serms just have very little effect on my e2 and I use pharma ancillaries only, no rc.

 

[Spurfy]

Nope, test was always in the upper end of the range. Not a concern for me any more because I blast and cruise, getting too old for this pct crap. Serms just have very little effect on my e2 and I use pharma ancillaries only, no rc.

Okay. So you have superior genetics.

 

[yates84]

Okay. So you have superior genetics.

Drugs effect everyone different, not a matter of superiority. Was my only point.

 

[Dma378]

No one mentions Exemestane's reciprocal testosterone boosting. Which is why I always recommend it in pct.

Kind of like why (at least for a 1st cycle) I recommend using an AI from the get go while on. What noob even knows what high e2 symptoms are to start dosing "as needed"? Now they're behind the 8-ball playing catch up. Taking higher, more frequent doses to try and get something under control. Run a cycle or 2 with a minimal AI dose throughout, then if you think you fare well without one, experiment with it. I look at pct the same way. We all know 99% of users aren't doing blood work. Especially not going into and mid pct. So from a real world application standpoint it makes more sense for me to tell someone to continue their minimal AI dose throughout pct.

Nothing trumps blood work. But the next best thing is covering your bases.