Question: what's with all these oral cycles?!
- Thread starter Nullifidian
- Start date
Beowulf
Registered User
Based on some of the bloodwork I've tracked down, not all SD users had horrendous bloodwork. Have you tried SD yet? Trying it and getting bloodwork is the only way you'll ever know if it is right or wrong for you. If you go back to the original testers, I think only one had messed up bloodwork, and he had been abusing ph's. If you don't want to risk one run to assess damage via bloodwork, by all means get rid of it. If you are in great health now, you may decide it is worth experimenting.CNorris said:
solarize
191cm, 98kg (6'3, 215lb)
Blood Work
I've had blood work done on cycle (the following, separetely)
Deca only
Test
SD
Ergomax/Max LMG
The ONLY time **** look'd okish was when running test solo, and then BP was an issue (as it always is with me). However, post cycle (after PCT or duing) my levels always go back to normal.
Dr.'s ****n FREAK when they see liver values etc all ****ed up.. however, these normally go to normal once you stop use, keep diet on track and get PCT done.
Try taking 4 panadol and a few drinks the night before a blood test and see how it looks
Then take two panadaol the morning of the blood test. That **** is scarey.
I really, really, don't see a big issue with people running a 4-6 week cycle of SD, if they are doing **** right (maybe this means taking seasmin on cycle, and doing PCT right etc, whatever it is for each person, so long as its sensible). 6 week oral cycles have been around for years, and frankly, are bloody short.
Many Dbol/Winny users have run 8 and more weeks and been 'fine', after pct etc.
Would love to see results of SD at 50-60mg a week, from an experienced Dbol/Test user, running Test/SD, with Sd for 6 weeks and test for 8.. thinkt hat would be some serious strength/mass gains. Liver/lipids would scream a bit though.
I've had blood work done on cycle (the following, separetely)
Deca only
Test
SD
Ergomax/Max LMG
The ONLY time **** look'd okish was when running test solo, and then BP was an issue (as it always is with me). However, post cycle (after PCT or duing) my levels always go back to normal.
Dr.'s ****n FREAK when they see liver values etc all ****ed up.. however, these normally go to normal once you stop use, keep diet on track and get PCT done.
Try taking 4 panadol and a few drinks the night before a blood test and see how it looks
Then take two panadaol the morning of the blood test. That **** is scarey.I really, really, don't see a big issue with people running a 4-6 week cycle of SD, if they are doing **** right (maybe this means taking seasmin on cycle, and doing PCT right etc, whatever it is for each person, so long as its sensible). 6 week oral cycles have been around for years, and frankly, are bloody short.
Many Dbol/Winny users have run 8 and more weeks and been 'fine', after pct etc.
Would love to see results of SD at 50-60mg a week, from an experienced Dbol/Test user, running Test/SD, with Sd for 6 weeks and test for 8.. thinkt hat would be some serious strength/mass gains. Liver/lipids would scream a bit though.
Nullifidian
Banned
Re: Blood Work
I see no mention of cholesterol. That's the big issue with SD and many of the new legals. Cholesterol does NOT return to normal quickly or easily.
Umm, that's kinda like saying you'd love to see a major traffic accident.
Scream a bit?
This is an example of what I was talking about. The kind of carefree "oh, the values returned to normal so I'm fine" mentality. The "the liver is resilient, I'll be fine" mentality. No, it doesn't mean you're fine. When you HDL drops and LDL goes up, your arteries clog. Those blood tests do not show you the state of your arteries. Unless you get your HDL so high it's actually above your LDL, chances are any existing blockages you've formed aren't going to clear up anytime in the next few years. And the only way you're going to know they exist is if they cause a cornonary event or you go to the doc and get a full arterial scan done. They don't usually do that until a major adverse event already occurs.
I'm not saying you can't use orals safely or that no one can. I am however saying folks need to take them A TON more seriously and take a crapload more care in considering the health consequences of what they are doing.
Not all orals are created equal. We know this. The illegal orals, with a couple exceptions, tend to be much safer though than the legal ones. I would say the most dangerous illegal ones are Anadrol, Halotestin, and C Drops. Halo and drops being really liver toxic, and Drol being pretty liver toxic and really bad for BP and cholesterol. I would put SD on par with Drol as far as safety because of BP and cholesterol issues folks have on SD. I would put M1T (though now techincally illegal, no one's getting busted for it, and there are even some stores that actually still sell old stock of it) above Drol as far as danger is concerned.
Folks get ragged on for doing Dbol only cycles. The short duration leads to hormone fluctuation which means most gains kept are going to be water and fat. Plus oral only isn't as safe, though with Dbol it isn't so dangerous.
An SD only cycle though would be like running Drol solo. Not. friggin. smart. You may think you're keeping your gains, but you'll find nearly all those gains you keep are once again water and fat. Yes, water can "look" like muscle gain, and yes Superdrol does most definitely cause water retention. It is not dry. It won't cause retention like Dbol or Drol, becuase it doesn't convert to estrogen, but that doesn't preclude it from causes water retention via other means.
Now, imagine if someone said they were going to run a 6 week cycle of Drol at 150mg ED along with some Winny at 50mg ED. Everyone on the board would immediately tell them to do some more research or get ready for a trip to the ER. Well half the cycles of "legal orals" I see folks doing on these boards are pretty much the same in terms of damage they are doing to themselves.
So please, to all you running multiple orals at the same time or even running orals back to back for extended periods fo time: STOP. You're doing more damage to yourself than you think.
To those considering cycles of this type: DON'T.
If you are so deadset on running an AAS cycle but have concerns about purchasing illegal items and have an extreme phobia of needles, then my best advice is this:
Buy some cattle pellets and invest the time to do a Test Base conversion. Then run a transdermal cycle. It's safer and more effective than legal orals are, and you can purchase all the raw materials 100% legally.
solarize said:I've had blood work done on cycle (the following, separetely)
Deca only
Test
SD
Ergomax/Max LMG
The ONLY time **** look'd okish was when running test solo, and then BP was an issue (as it always is with me). However, post cycle (after PCT or duing) my levels always go back to normal.
Dr.'s ****n FREAK when they see liver values etc all ****ed up.. however, these normally go to normal once you stop use, keep diet on track and get PCT done.
Try taking 4 panadol and a few drinks the night before a blood test and see how it looks
I really, really, don't see a big issue with people running a 4-6 week cycle of SD, if they are doing **** right (maybe this means taking seasmin on cycle, and doing PCT right etc, whatever it is for each person, so long as its sensible). 6 week oral cycles have been around for years, and frankly, are bloody short.
Many Dbol/Winny users have run 8 and more weeks and been 'fine', after pct etc.
I see no mention of cholesterol. That's the big issue with SD and many of the new legals. Cholesterol does NOT return to normal quickly or easily.
Umm, that's kinda like saying you'd love to see a major traffic accident.
Scream a bit?
This is an example of what I was talking about. The kind of carefree "oh, the values returned to normal so I'm fine" mentality. The "the liver is resilient, I'll be fine" mentality. No, it doesn't mean you're fine. When you HDL drops and LDL goes up, your arteries clog. Those blood tests do not show you the state of your arteries. Unless you get your HDL so high it's actually above your LDL, chances are any existing blockages you've formed aren't going to clear up anytime in the next few years. And the only way you're going to know they exist is if they cause a cornonary event or you go to the doc and get a full arterial scan done. They don't usually do that until a major adverse event already occurs.
I'm not saying you can't use orals safely or that no one can. I am however saying folks need to take them A TON more seriously and take a crapload more care in considering the health consequences of what they are doing.
Not all orals are created equal. We know this. The illegal orals, with a couple exceptions, tend to be much safer though than the legal ones. I would say the most dangerous illegal ones are Anadrol, Halotestin, and C Drops. Halo and drops being really liver toxic, and Drol being pretty liver toxic and really bad for BP and cholesterol. I would put SD on par with Drol as far as safety because of BP and cholesterol issues folks have on SD. I would put M1T (though now techincally illegal, no one's getting busted for it, and there are even some stores that actually still sell old stock of it) above Drol as far as danger is concerned.
Folks get ragged on for doing Dbol only cycles. The short duration leads to hormone fluctuation which means most gains kept are going to be water and fat. Plus oral only isn't as safe, though with Dbol it isn't so dangerous.
An SD only cycle though would be like running Drol solo. Not. friggin. smart. You may think you're keeping your gains, but you'll find nearly all those gains you keep are once again water and fat. Yes, water can "look" like muscle gain, and yes Superdrol does most definitely cause water retention. It is not dry. It won't cause retention like Dbol or Drol, becuase it doesn't convert to estrogen, but that doesn't preclude it from causes water retention via other means.
Now, imagine if someone said they were going to run a 6 week cycle of Drol at 150mg ED along with some Winny at 50mg ED. Everyone on the board would immediately tell them to do some more research or get ready for a trip to the ER. Well half the cycles of "legal orals" I see folks doing on these boards are pretty much the same in terms of damage they are doing to themselves.
So please, to all you running multiple orals at the same time or even running orals back to back for extended periods fo time: STOP. You're doing more damage to yourself than you think.
To those considering cycles of this type: DON'T.
If you are so deadset on running an AAS cycle but have concerns about purchasing illegal items and have an extreme phobia of needles, then my best advice is this:
Buy some cattle pellets and invest the time to do a Test Base conversion. Then run a transdermal cycle. It's safer and more effective than legal orals are, and you can purchase all the raw materials 100% legally.
sweet-physique
Member
Re: Blood Work
You forgot methyltrienolone. This is probably the most liver toxic illegal AAS
Nullifidian said:
You forgot methyltrienolone. This is probably the most liver toxic illegal AAS
sweet-physique
Member
Re: Blood Work
This is a good suggestion and a very safe alternative. Injectable conversions are also possible. It will take a decent anabolicmind to do a good conversion that will achieve sound results and good absorbtion rates, or a safely steralized IM solution. Finaplix also can of course be done this way.
Nullifidian said:
This is a good suggestion and a very safe alternative. Injectable conversions are also possible. It will take a decent anabolicmind to do a good conversion that will achieve sound results and good absorbtion rates, or a safely steralized IM solution. Finaplix also can of course be done this way.
sweet-physique
Member
I will also say that some members present as legal AAS snobs. By that I mean they will make comments that the only good AAS is an illegal AAS. This simply is not true. If your caution comes from a safety standpoint with good intent for others consideration such as Null, that is a great arguement.
But if your line of thinking is: you are afraid of pins and i am not, or you don't have a source and i do, or you are afraid to enter the illegal dark side and I fear not, and any of these thoughts cause you to think you are more of a bodybuilder with a stronger desire, dedication, or love of the lifestyle than someone who for thier own personal reasons doesn't pursue the dark side, shame on you. I have used illegal and legal AAS, via IM, TD and oral. All are benefical for their intended uses and designed delivery methods. A TD test base may cost more and add less mass than a 12 week Test E cycle, but it also kicks in really fast and gives an intense initial boost the Test E doesn't (for me anyway). SD gives a dry gain much more so the dbol and much more pronouced than something dry like var or winny ever could. These are all considerations in designing and running a cycle, as are the legal and saftey issues.
Just my $.02
SP
But if your line of thinking is: you are afraid of pins and i am not, or you don't have a source and i do, or you are afraid to enter the illegal dark side and I fear not, and any of these thoughts cause you to think you are more of a bodybuilder with a stronger desire, dedication, or love of the lifestyle than someone who for thier own personal reasons doesn't pursue the dark side, shame on you. I have used illegal and legal AAS, via IM, TD and oral. All are benefical for their intended uses and designed delivery methods. A TD test base may cost more and add less mass than a 12 week Test E cycle, but it also kicks in really fast and gives an intense initial boost the Test E doesn't (for me anyway). SD gives a dry gain much more so the dbol and much more pronouced than something dry like var or winny ever could. These are all considerations in designing and running a cycle, as are the legal and saftey issues.
Just my $.02
SP
Nullifidian
Banned
Re: Blood Work
I think of it as more of a novelty than anything else. The toxicity is so high, I don't really think its possible to use an effective dose without dieing. It was never sold as a pharmaceutical. They developed it as a way to study androgenic related hepatic failure. It's basically designed to be as toxic as possible and as androgenic as possible.
It's basically a poison that in high doses might cause anabolism if tolerated long enough before liver failure occurs.
I've never heard of anyone actually using methyltren.sweet-physique said:
I think of it as more of a novelty than anything else. The toxicity is so high, I don't really think its possible to use an effective dose without dieing. It was never sold as a pharmaceutical. They developed it as a way to study androgenic related hepatic failure. It's basically designed to be as toxic as possible and as androgenic as possible.
It's basically a poison that in high doses might cause anabolism if tolerated long enough before liver failure occurs.
sweet-physique
Member
Re: Blood Work
Also i'll rep you Null for bringing the debate up for discussion. You make some valid points, although I still would not through all the designers under the bus.
They probably aren't around to talk about it.Nullifidian said:
Also i'll rep you Null for bringing the debate up for discussion. You make some valid points, although I still would not through all the designers under the bus.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
Re: Blood Work
I thought it was used on elephants not humans?
Nullifidian said:
I thought it was used on elephants not humans?
thetimbomb
Member
While on the topic of orals, I was wondering....
Superdrol is relatively toxic, so would it be a bad idea to stack with methoxy tst and m4ad?
I take it would be a bad idea, but i was just throwing that out there because nobody else has.
Superdrol is relatively toxic, so would it be a bad idea to stack with methoxy tst and m4ad?
I take it would be a bad idea, but i was just throwing that out there because nobody else has.
Nullifidian
Banned
Re: Blood Work
Oh I'm not saying the legals serve no purpose either. As I said, many of them have a niche in the entire arsenal of AAS use. An example I gave was that SD is a good sub for Dbol or Drol when you don't want estrogen.
All I'm saying is cycles made entirely of orals are not a wise idea, and stacked orals is a really bad idea. And that the folks taking those kinds of cycles either do not appear to take into account the health risks, or they seem to think the health risks are minimal.
sweet-physique said:
Oh I'm not saying the legals serve no purpose either. As I said, many of them have a niche in the entire arsenal of AAS use. An example I gave was that SD is a good sub for Dbol or Drol when you don't want estrogen.
All I'm saying is cycles made entirely of orals are not a wise idea, and stacked orals is a really bad idea. And that the folks taking those kinds of cycles either do not appear to take into account the health risks, or they seem to think the health risks are minimal.
somewhatgifted
Registered User
Re: Blood Work
I totally agree, when i was 21 a buddy gave me M1T and i had no idea what it was, but he assured me its awesome ill get huge and itll be sweet. Now that the light of enlightenment has shone on my face i look back im disgust at my own ignorance. 3 M1t cycles poor PCT he told me to do 2 weeks then 2 off then go again, i had no idea what i got myself into. The nose bleeds were alarming but now that i have a chance to educate the ignorant, i hope, this board and its educated members can prevent this from happening to other dumb kids.
Nullifidian said:
I totally agree, when i was 21 a buddy gave me M1T and i had no idea what it was, but he assured me its awesome ill get huge and itll be sweet. Now that the light of enlightenment has shone on my face i look back im disgust at my own ignorance. 3 M1t cycles poor PCT he told me to do 2 weeks then 2 off then go again, i had no idea what i got myself into. The nose bleeds were alarming but now that i have a chance to educate the ignorant, i hope, this board and its educated members can prevent this from happening to other dumb kids.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Re: Blood Work
Though, as I said in an earlier points, I agree with the principles Null, this sentence is the only theme I have a problem with..It would seem you are stating that choosing an oral-only OTC cycle is a sign of naiviety or ignorance..I take issue with this because I believe at this point I encompass neither of those characteristics, but have an oral only cycle planned..I by no means claim to know everything, and am still absorbing information posted by you and other senior members in an attempt to know everything I can. However, unlike most individuals, I did about 6 months of research before I purchased anything, purchased my PCT/supports before my cycle, and then did an additional 4 months of research on this site before I came to the conclusion to do my cycle..If I had either a)the resources b)the source or c)an environment where I felt I could safely convert my own Finaplix of Syno, believe me I would happily take the safer, more effective, and more maintainable route of injections. But alas, I have none of those things at this present juncture and am hampered, as many who do these cycles are, by availability. But, the principles I agree with are individuals who see a bottle of SD and buy it because they think it is pretty..I realize that these type of individuals is what most likely spurred you to make this post, and on that front agree with you wholeheartedly. I just don't believe doing an oral only OTC cycle automatically precludes you to ignorance or stupidity.
Nullifidian said:
Though, as I said in an earlier points, I agree with the principles Null, this sentence is the only theme I have a problem with..It would seem you are stating that choosing an oral-only OTC cycle is a sign of naiviety or ignorance..I take issue with this because I believe at this point I encompass neither of those characteristics, but have an oral only cycle planned..I by no means claim to know everything, and am still absorbing information posted by you and other senior members in an attempt to know everything I can. However, unlike most individuals, I did about 6 months of research before I purchased anything, purchased my PCT/supports before my cycle, and then did an additional 4 months of research on this site before I came to the conclusion to do my cycle..If I had either a)the resources b)the source or c)an environment where I felt I could safely convert my own Finaplix of Syno, believe me I would happily take the safer, more effective, and more maintainable route of injections. But alas, I have none of those things at this present juncture and am hampered, as many who do these cycles are, by availability. But, the principles I agree with are individuals who see a bottle of SD and buy it because they think it is pretty..I realize that these type of individuals is what most likely spurred you to make this post, and on that front agree with you wholeheartedly. I just don't believe doing an oral only OTC cycle automatically precludes you to ignorance or stupidity.
Nullifidian
Banned
Re: Blood Work
It doesn't make you ignorant or stupid. However you do most definitely seem to have convinced yourself you are fully capable of handling any and all sides. What you aren't realising is you can't. It's not possible. Particularly when it comes to cholesterol. You may be very lucky; perhaps you have the rare genetics to have your cholesterol relatively unaffected. In all likelihood this won't be the case.
I may sound like an alarmist, but working at a pharma company I get to see some data that most don't the get the opportunity to. What most don't realise is that every day their HDL is dangerously low, clogging builds up in their arteries. The greater the imbalance in LDL to HDL, the faster those clogs build up. Some may not see that as a big deal except for the fact that currently there isn't a way to clear them. Once they are there, they are there. So in effect, every day you sit there with dangerously low HDL, you are shortening your lifespan, taking days, weeks, or even months off your life.
There are drugs in the works that can help clear blockages for some people. They don't work for everyone, and there are side effects.
There was one subject in a clinical trial I was looking at (over 4000 subjects total in the trial), only one whose HDL was below 10. Just one. His blockages were too severe for the drug to even make a dent. Under concomittant medication/therapy he had bypass surgery listed in the final entry. Under adverse events the last one listed was cardiac arrest resulting in death. I've seen some other deaths in there and their HDL wasn't even as low as that and they didn't have blockages as severe. It doesn't have to take an insane amount of blockage to kill you. In one case, there was only a partial blockage of 1 artery. The blockage broke and a piece of it got lodged inside the heart and killed the subject. His HDL was just below 40; not even all that low.
So don't take that oral only cycle unless you are willing to accept the fact that you are most definitely shortening your life. Is a few extra pounds of muscle worth it? You could gain naturally, take your time and eventually gain either contacts for injectables, or perhaps find the environment necessary to brew your own or to homebrew transdermals.
Remember there is always more research that can be done. Afterall, what good is research done when you've been looking at bad information. If you've been reading a lot of logs of all oral cycles, then that's likely what you've done is researching bad info.
Your head is in the right place. You want to make sure you are being safe. You made that clear by having all your PCT products set and ready and everything fully planned out. Unfortunately there aren't enough folks here telling you the real deal behind the safety of most orals. You may still decide to go ahead. But do so knowing that you are doing far more damage than you intially anticipated.
Most sides of steroids can be avoided or mitigated. Blood pressure there are supplement and where they fail you could take an Angiotensin II Receptor Antagonist (an extremely safe blood pressure drug). The liver does regenerate well, and if you take liver supplements (milk thistle, NAC, KR-ALA, etc.), keep your diet clean, avoid other liver damaging substances oncycle, and continue taking your liver supplement for a few weeks after PCT (most SERMs damage your liver too) your liver should be ok. Most of us know and focus intensely on how to get the HPTA recovered and we also know that permanent damage for the most part cannot be done to it from standard AAS use, even prolonged use.
But cholesterol is another story. The supplements available only help marginally at best. The drugs available only work to decrease LDL. HDL is the most important number though. AAS which lower HDL, in my opinion, are the most dangerous of all. I think I've already illustrated why.
Mulletsoldier said:
It doesn't make you ignorant or stupid. However you do most definitely seem to have convinced yourself you are fully capable of handling any and all sides. What you aren't realising is you can't. It's not possible. Particularly when it comes to cholesterol. You may be very lucky; perhaps you have the rare genetics to have your cholesterol relatively unaffected. In all likelihood this won't be the case.
I may sound like an alarmist, but working at a pharma company I get to see some data that most don't the get the opportunity to. What most don't realise is that every day their HDL is dangerously low, clogging builds up in their arteries. The greater the imbalance in LDL to HDL, the faster those clogs build up. Some may not see that as a big deal except for the fact that currently there isn't a way to clear them. Once they are there, they are there. So in effect, every day you sit there with dangerously low HDL, you are shortening your lifespan, taking days, weeks, or even months off your life.
There are drugs in the works that can help clear blockages for some people. They don't work for everyone, and there are side effects.
There was one subject in a clinical trial I was looking at (over 4000 subjects total in the trial), only one whose HDL was below 10. Just one. His blockages were too severe for the drug to even make a dent. Under concomittant medication/therapy he had bypass surgery listed in the final entry. Under adverse events the last one listed was cardiac arrest resulting in death. I've seen some other deaths in there and their HDL wasn't even as low as that and they didn't have blockages as severe. It doesn't have to take an insane amount of blockage to kill you. In one case, there was only a partial blockage of 1 artery. The blockage broke and a piece of it got lodged inside the heart and killed the subject. His HDL was just below 40; not even all that low.
So don't take that oral only cycle unless you are willing to accept the fact that you are most definitely shortening your life. Is a few extra pounds of muscle worth it? You could gain naturally, take your time and eventually gain either contacts for injectables, or perhaps find the environment necessary to brew your own or to homebrew transdermals.
Remember there is always more research that can be done. Afterall, what good is research done when you've been looking at bad information. If you've been reading a lot of logs of all oral cycles, then that's likely what you've done is researching bad info.
Your head is in the right place. You want to make sure you are being safe. You made that clear by having all your PCT products set and ready and everything fully planned out. Unfortunately there aren't enough folks here telling you the real deal behind the safety of most orals. You may still decide to go ahead. But do so knowing that you are doing far more damage than you intially anticipated.
Most sides of steroids can be avoided or mitigated. Blood pressure there are supplement and where they fail you could take an Angiotensin II Receptor Antagonist (an extremely safe blood pressure drug). The liver does regenerate well, and if you take liver supplements (milk thistle, NAC, KR-ALA, etc.), keep your diet clean, avoid other liver damaging substances oncycle, and continue taking your liver supplement for a few weeks after PCT (most SERMs damage your liver too) your liver should be ok. Most of us know and focus intensely on how to get the HPTA recovered and we also know that permanent damage for the most part cannot be done to it from standard AAS use, even prolonged use.
But cholesterol is another story. The supplements available only help marginally at best. The drugs available only work to decrease LDL. HDL is the most important number though. AAS which lower HDL, in my opinion, are the most dangerous of all. I think I've already illustrated why.
Beowulf
Registered User
Re: Blood Work
:goodpost::clap2:
Great posting, Null. I think we need people to start doing bloodwork mid/end cycle. That will be the only way to see the damage. I have always been blessed with exceptionally good cholesterol, so this may be in the cards down the road somewhere.
:goodpost::clap2:
Great posting, Null. I think we need people to start doing bloodwork mid/end cycle. That will be the only way to see the damage. I have always been blessed with exceptionally good cholesterol, so this may be in the cards down the road somewhere.
Nullifidian said:
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Re: Blood Work
As I said, I respect where your intentions lie, but you are mistaken in thinking that this site, though invaluable is the only source of research I utilize. I scour Pubmed, not to mention the countless medical textbooks I have access to due to my mother having her Ph.D in Nursing/Philosophy. The specific orals in question obviously have no medical research on them, however drugs which work by the same mechanisms and proccesses do. I have read as much as I can, and am continuing to do so, about the proccess through which not only 17aa, but all AAS work through our bodies. I also have weighted the risks/benefits of OTC orals using all the information available to me, not simply logs of others with bloodwork. Lets not kid ourselves here, we are not putting roses and lillies into our body ALL steroids, if not done properly can be dangerous.
Nullifidian said:
As I said, I respect where your intentions lie, but you are mistaken in thinking that this site, though invaluable is the only source of research I utilize. I scour Pubmed, not to mention the countless medical textbooks I have access to due to my mother having her Ph.D in Nursing/Philosophy. The specific orals in question obviously have no medical research on them, however drugs which work by the same mechanisms and proccesses do. I have read as much as I can, and am continuing to do so, about the proccess through which not only 17aa, but all AAS work through our bodies. I also have weighted the risks/benefits of OTC orals using all the information available to me, not simply logs of others with bloodwork. Lets not kid ourselves here, we are not putting roses and lillies into our body ALL steroids, if not done properly can be dangerous.
phaeton66
Member
Beowulf said:
I had some bloodwork done after a much too long (5 week, after a 2 week minicycle +2 week break) SD cycle, while on Nolva; this was 2 weeks & a few days after my last SD dose:
Cholest, Total: 207 (should be 100-200)
HDL 38 (should be 40-50)
VLDL 19 (should be 5-40)
LDL 150 (should be 0-99)
Liver
ALT 80 (0-40)
AST 38 (0-40)
Not great, but this was done without any liver supps; no sesathin, no NAC, no R-ALA, no nuthin: just vitties and protein. While I would prefer no liver stress, and that my 'roids make my LDL/HDL ratio peaches and cream, it didn't seem too horrible. And, I certainly won't do as long a cycle as that again.
Seriously; I'd rather something with less side effects on my innards, but if it is only going to be a marginal difference, I'd rather just stick with the devil I know than start playing the human pincushion trick with a whole lot of illegal stuff. What I'd really like is something like SD in its dry bulking effects which I could put in a transdermal, and turn my liver into wurst. That would be the chit.
-Phaeton66
CDB
Registered User
volusia40 said:
Products like that did exist for a while. It's just now with the market being what it is, marketing a 'pain free oral solution' would be risky. But back in the good old days you could even get the base or ester powders and cook your own up. I still have 3 grams of 1 test cyp that's probably useless by now, but I hang on to it for sentimental reasons.:sad: