Pumpflation Reaches Record Highs Nationwide. Any Sustain Release No2 Substrate recommendations?

[thescience]

I was just attempting to find a sustained release No2 substrate product. one i found looks really good but would cost me 225$/month to run 8grams a day. i guess the old sustained release arginine products were maybe 30% akg, so i suppose calling for 8g isnt fair, but still we're talking upwards of 160$/month. I guess housing prices arent the only thing on the rise. MRI is under new ownership, but they still make no2; i see alot of complaints about half the caplets being dust, which is strange for a caplet and also it's now 50% l-arginine which im less thrilled about. it's funny though because ive seen some reviews where guys are saying theyve come back to the sustained release and after trying so many new kinds of pump products they said it still works better

Anybody know of any sustained release no2 products these days?
all suggestions welcome, but im probably inclined to a strictly sustained arginine akg or citrulline

 

[Afi140]

My dad sworeeeeeee by the original. He dropped serious money on that back in the day

 

[thescience]

My dad sworeeeeeee by the original. He dropped serious money on that back in the day

yeah i mean it took 21 days to reach saturation, but i dont have anything today i could compare those awesome results to. Im assuming this is due to my age or other issues but ive been meaning to try and retrace my steps just to be sure. mri is still asking for the big bucks today. it looks like now had a citrulline that was pretty inexpensive that was discontinued

 

[sns8778]

Regular and sustained release arginine fell out of favor and popularity many years ago, so there's not many left that I know of.

It just got to be where brands had next to no demand for it, and brands that did use it were criticized for using it over better ingredients.

I know that on our end, I haven't had a request for arginine in over 10 years.

It first fell out of popularity in pump products in favor of Citrulline Malate and then in favor of L-Citrulline, and in favor of many of the newer more advanced ingredients.

We use Nitrosigine in Super Swole capsules.

Nitrosigine is Inositol Stabilized Arginine Silicate, a clinically researched form of arginine that has been shown to have both immediate and cumulative benefits.

In studies, Nitrosigine was shown to dilate blood vessels up to 500% more than regular arginine. It was shown to increase blood concentrations of arginine for up to 1.5 hours after using it for the very first time. Then it was shown to increase blood arginine levels for up to 6 hours.

That's a big reason we use it in Super Swole caps, because some people use it only for pre-workout purposes, but then many people use it daily for improved muscle fullness and cardiovascular and endothelial health.

I like Nitrosigine much better than regular arginine, but I still think that it works much better in a formulation with other ingredients that target increasing nitric oxide in different pathways. That's why we chose to use it in a formula but never offered it as a single ingredient.

By combining it with Agmatine, you also target increasing nitric oxide levels and inhibiting nitric oxide synthase (the enzyme responsible for nitric oxide breakdown), plus a lot of other overall health benefits. Agmatine's inhibition of nitric oxide synthase is why some people refer to it as a nitric oxide extender because it may prolong the NO boosting effects of other nitric oxide boosters.

Super Swole also contains S7, which is unique and different from arginine and other nitric oxide boosting compounds because it works by helping increase your body's natural levels of nitric oxide production. S7 is included in a lot of pre-workouts and pump products, but I'm much more of a fan of using it in formulas that are daily use formulas because that's how it is going to deliver the best results.

Oh, and Super Swole caps also contain Amentoflavone that helps with pumps and endurance, so it adds a nice touch to the pump benefits from Super Swole and also helps with the endothelial health benefits.

The write up goes into more detail about Nitrosigine and why the different ingredients are used together:

Super Swole Capsules - Competitive Edge Labs, LLC

Stimulant Free Pre-Workout & Pump Enhancer. 30 Servings. Convenient Capsule Form. Massive Pumps, Endurance, Improved Performance, & More.

competitiveedgelabs.com

I hope that info helps.

 

[thescience]

Regular and sustained release arginine fell out of favor and popularity many years ago, so there's not many left that I know of.

It just got to be where brands had next to no demand for it, and brands that did use it were criticized for using it over better ingredients.

I know that on our end, I haven't had a request for arginine in over 10 years.

It first fell out of popularity in pump products in favor of Citrulline Malate and then in favor of L-Citrulline, and in favor of many of the newer more advanced ingredients.

We use Nitrosigine in Super Swole capsules.

Nitrosigine is Inositol Stabilized Arginine Silicate, a clinically researched form of arginine that has been shown to have both immediate and cumulative benefits.

In studies, Nitrosigine was shown to dilate blood vessels up to 500% more than regular arginine. It was shown to increase blood concentrations of arginine for up to 1.5 hours after using it for the very first time. Then it was shown to increase blood arginine levels for up to 6 hours.

That's a big reason we use it in Super Swole caps, because some people use it only for pre-workout purposes, but then many people use it daily for improved muscle fullness and cardiovascular and endothelial health.

I like Nitrosigine much better than regular arginine, but I still think that it works much better in a formulation with other ingredients that target increasing nitric oxide in different pathways. That's why we chose to use it in a formula but never offered it as a single ingredient.

By combining it with Agmatine, you also target increasing nitric oxide levels and inhibiting nitric oxide synthase (the enzyme responsible for nitric oxide breakdown), plus a lot of other overall health benefits. Agmatine's inhibition of nitric oxide synthase is why some people refer to it as a nitric oxide extender because it may prolong the NO boosting effects of other nitric oxide boosters.

Super Swole also contains S7, which is unique and different from arginine and other nitric oxide boosting compounds because it works by helping increase your body's natural levels of nitric oxide production. S7 is included in a lot of pre-workouts and pump products, but I'm much more of a fan of using it in formulas that are daily use formulas because that's how it is going to deliver the best results.

Oh, and Super Swole caps also contain Amentoflavone that helps with pumps and endurance, so it adds a nice touch to the pump benefits from Super Swole and also helps with the endothelial health benefits.

The write up goes into more detail about Nitrosigine and why the different ingredients are used together:

Super Swole Capsules - Competitive Edge Labs, LLC

Stimulant Free Pre-Workout & Pump Enhancer. 30 Servings. Convenient Capsule Form. Massive Pumps, Endurance, Improved Performance, & More.

competitiveedgelabs.com

I hope that info helps.

thanks always for the insight and suggestions

 

[Resolve10]

I’m not really understanding the question. There’s so many better options than Arginine out there.

 

[thescience]

I shouldnt complain. im on a nitrosigine solo run. ive upped the dosage to 3g twice a day and noticed double efficacy and its only been a few days. im leary of blasting my system with higher a dosage and am leaning toward a sustained release to avert any potential sides, but 3g is a high dose and i feel nitrosigine is a quality ingredient, seeing as i dont have any sides so far. i remember products like superpump 250 causing issues, either due to so much arginine akg hitting at once or so much not being absorbed. now im reading that arginase in the livernand GI is largely the reason why arginine is less effective than citrulline at making NO. I wonder if nitrosigine gets past that. ive heard of alterations of an ingredient resulting in big changes on how it gets processed ie such as where nac ethyl ester doesnt end up in the liver on account of it being flagged as something else

 

[thescience]

I’m not really understanding the question. There’s so many better options than Arginine out there.

just curious if youve run a sustained release arginine akg for 21 days straight at approximately 8 grams/day. id be good with a sustained release citrulline if it exists. my plan is to run nitrosigine for idk the 4 bottles i have left before going with a OKG powder i bought.ideally, i was hoping to find a sustained release product, but maybe that isnt all that important for the objective. i could revisit nitrosigine or okg in combo with agmatine for a fourth comparison

 

[Rad83]

Thought this was gonna be about gas prices !

Just take a few grams of tadalafil…with a glass of v8…maybe add some regular L arginine or L citrulline…I look full and vascular af !

 

[thescience]

Thought this was gonna be about gas prices !

Just take a few grams of tadalafil…with a glass of v8…maybe add some regular L arginine or L citrulline…I look full and vascular af !

what's the thought process behind the v8? sodium?

 

[sns8778]

I shouldnt complain. im on a nitrosigine solo run. ive upped the dosage to 3g twice a day and noticed double efficacy and its only been a few days. im leary of blasting my system with higher a dosage and am leaning toward a sustained release to avert any potential sides, but 3g is a high dose and i feel nitrosigine is a quality ingredient, seeing as i dont have any sides so far. i remember products like superpump 250 causing issues, either due to so much arginine akg hitting at once or so much not being absorbed. now im reading that arginine synthase in the liver is the reason why arginine is less effective than citrulline. I wonder if nitrosigine gets past that. ive heard of alterations of an ingredient doing that, ie such as where nac ethyl ester doesnt end up in the liver on account of it being flagged as something else

I like Nitrosigine mixed with other things, but I never liked it as a single ingredient. We had people ask us to do it as a single ingredient, and that business wise would have probably been good to do and make money off of, but I just couldn't make myself do it because as much as I like it in combination with other things, I'm just not a fan of it solo.

I haven't and never would use it at 3 grams personally. It may work better at that dosage, but for the price of that dosage, one could just buy a comprehensive formula with other things that would help extend the time in the bloodstream and also target increasing nitric oxide from other angles and provide other overall health benefits.

You would be correct on arginine synthase being one of the reasons that regular arginine is less effective than citrulline. No, Inositol wouldn't get past that - I don't ever remember reading any way that it wouldn't and I don't think that's something that they even claim that it does. That's why in Super Swole capsules we use it in combination with Arginine.

Btw.... tone can come off wrong sometime thru typing, so I want to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with you; this is just something I've researched extensively and recently put hours into researching more and refreshing my knowledge on. I like you and its a subject of interest for me, so just making conversation.

 

[poison]

I enjoy nutricost aakg, and in some ways I like aakg better than l-citrulline. Nitrosigine is great stuff, and has nootropic benefits as well.

Nitrates are the sustained pump ingredient, with a half life of 12hrs iirc. Icariin also has good sustained effects. Otherwise, taladafil-type stuff (which I've never tried).

 

[thescience]

High plasma citrulline and arginine levels ensured by sustained-release citrulline supplementation in rats - PubMed

This experimental study provides a strong rationale for using this new formulation for atherosclerosis treatment.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

" Moreover, argininemia was significantly higher in the SR citrulline group than in controls throughout the study and SR citrulline maintained high argininemia and citrullinemia, at least over 12 h."

 

[Rad83]

what's the thought process behind the v8? sodium?

Vegetables, beets especially, and sodium…It’s all beneficial. Just something that I found works and doesn’t break the bank

 

[thescience]

I like Nitrosigine mixed with other things, but I never liked it as a single ingredient. We had people ask us to do it as a single ingredient, and that business wise would have probably been good to do and make money off of, but I just couldn't make myself do it because as much as I like it in combination with other things, I'm just not a fan of it solo.

I haven't and never would use it at 3 grams personally. It may work better at that dosage, but for the price of that dosage, one could just buy a comprehensive formula with other things that would help extend the time in the bloodstream and also target increasing nitric oxide from other angles and provide other overall health benefits.

You would be correct on arginine synthase being one of the reasons that regular arginine is less effective than citrulline. No, Inositol wouldn't get past that - I don't ever remember reading any way that it wouldn't and I don't think that's something that they even claim that it does. That's why in Super Swole capsules we use it in combination with Arginine.

Btw.... tone can come off wrong sometime thru typing, so I want to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with you; this is just something I've researched extensively and recently put hours into researching more and refreshing my knowledge on. I like you and its a subject of interest for me, so just making conversation.

definitely welcome your outlook. I need input and you have it. I cant fault a man for not wanting to drop 3g of arginine at a sitting and yeah the experiment is costing $80/month. i think people are overlooking other factors such as the resulting insulin bump big doses of arginine can provide. i felt like by triceps grew on Aakg and remained bigger after discontinuing and losing the pump. was it the akg becoming a substrate for glutamine in the bloodstream or a rise in insulin?

 

[thescience]

Vegetables, beets especially, and sodium…It’s all beneficial. Just something that I found works and doesn’t break the bank

ive heard of guys enhancing a drug induced pump with a little carbohydrates. Id be impressed to learn if V8 contained any significant amount of nitrates

 

[Resolve10]

I can’t even imagine trying to dose Nitrosigine at 3g let alone twice a day.

I think you are just running into some severe diminishing returns and have to ask yourself what benefit are you even getting out of trying to bump this so high?

Citrulline will have a longer duration of effect and at higher dosages much less likelihood of stomach discomfort, after that you’d get more benefit looking into alternate pathways like limiting nitric oxide breakdown via something like agmatine. Hit some different pathways via things like nitrates, etc.

Idk what benefit you are looking for though. Plenty of these things provide tangible benefits to things like pump and performance without needs for crazy dosing schemes.

 

[sns8778]

definitely welcome your outlook. I need input and you have it. I cant fault a man for not wanting to drop 3g of arginine at a sitting and yeah the experiment is costing $80/month. i think people are overlooking other factors such as the resulting insulin bump big doses of arginine can provide. i felt like by triceps grew on Aakg and remained bigger after discontinuing and losing the pump. was it the akg becoming a substrate for glutamine in the bloodstream or a rise in insulin?

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure. Sometimes things can come off wrong when typing, and I didn't want you or anyone to think I was being disagreeable or just trying to suggest Super Swole. I was just using Super Swole as an example of something that contained a lot of what you were looking for and talking about and that it was formulated to take a lot of that into mind - like an advanced long lasting arginine source, addressing nitric oxide synthase, and also helping elevate natural nitric oxide levels to have a better starting point for the temporary elevations associated with arginine.

It's interesting that you mentioned insulin because I was talking about how Agmatine helped with nitric oxide synthase and also has a lot of overall health properties, and why we use it in Super Swole with Nitrosigine.

Here is a copy and paste about Agmatine from an upcoming write up:

Agmatine Sulfate is a well-known nitric oxide support ingredient that possesses some very unique glucose disposal and nutrient partitioning properties.

Agmatine Sulfate is one of the few ingredients that has been shown to have the capability to increase GLUT-4 transportation and mRNA expression in skeletal muscle, making it a prime ingredient to help ensure that glucose transport to muscle cells is favored over fat cells.

Agmatine achieves this by acting upon imidazoline receptors, which releases beta-endorphin, a neuropeptide that can dispose of blood glucose into skeletal muscle tissue (independent of whether it is exercised or at rest). Due to this, Agmatine can reduce blood glucose via adrenal-gland dependent means as opposed to pancreatic (insulin) dependent means.

 

[thescience]

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure. Sometimes things can come off wrong when typing, and I didn't want you or anyone to think I was being disagreeable or just trying to suggest Super Swole. I was just using Super Swole as an example of something that contained a lot of what you were looking for and talking about and that it was formulated to take a lot of that into mind - like an advanced long lasting arginine source, addressing nitric oxide synthase, and also helping elevate natural nitric oxide levels to have a better starting point for the temporary elevations associated with arginine.

It's interesting that you mentioned insulin because I was talking about how Agmatine helped with nitric oxide synthase and also has a lot of overall health properties, and why we use it in Super Swole with Nitrosigine.

Here is a copy and paste about Agmatine from an upcoming write up:

Agmatine Sulfate is a well-known nitric oxide support ingredient that possesses some very unique glucose disposal and nutrient partitioning properties.

Agmatine Sulfate is one of the few ingredients that has been shown to have the capability to increase GLUT-4 transportation and mRNA expression in skeletal muscle, making it a prime ingredient to help ensure that glucose transport to muscle cells is favored over fat cells.

Agmatine achieves this by acting upon imidazoline receptors, which releases beta-endorphin, a neuropeptide that can dispose of blood glucose into skeletal muscle tissue (independent of whether it is exercised or at rest). Due to this, Agmatine can reduce blood glucose via adrenal-gland dependent means as opposed to pancreatic (insulin) dependent means.

no yeah thanks for the suggestions. I have i think 3 bottles of super swole on hand i havent really tried. it's going to happen at some point. i didnt know it delayed NO breakdown, so it is possible some of the crazier results ive had with agmatine may have occurred during periods of simultaneous arginine or citrulline supplementation and i didnt realize the connection

 

[sns8778]

no yeah thanks for the suggestions. I have i think 3 bottles of super swole on hand i havent really tried. it's going to happen at some point. i didnt know it delayed NO breakdown, so it is possible some of the crazier results ive had with agmatine may have occurred during periods of simultaneous arginine or citrulline supplementation and i didnt realize the connection

Agmatine is a great ingredient on its own and it has so many more benefits than people realize.

It's a great example of an ingredient that became so associated with one thing, that its other benefits are often overlooked.

It became so associated with pumps and nitric oxide that a lot of people don't realize how big of a variety of benefits it has outside of that use. It is also used for, and has studies on it that apply to stress and anxiety, nootropic properties, neuroprotective properties, GDA benefits, and a lot more.

One thing that it is very good for at higher dosages, but companies can't legally market it for is that it has been shown to help with nicotine, alcohol, and even opiate withdrawal.

I've also heard some great success stories of it along with KannaEase helping with Kratom withdrawal.

 

[Dustin07]

I had to go back into my order history to see what I had back when I felt arginine played a good role for me. It was Now supplements back in 2016, 1g doses. But something changed over the years and for one thing their pills became monstrous horsepills. I found myself chewing on them in the end because I couldn't choke them down. Then I got their powdered version and just never noticed anything from it. I still have some left that I throw in my morning collagen/creatine etc just cause i have it, until it's gone. But yeah I definitely don't notice the benefits from it anymore.

Regular and sustained release arginine fell out of favor and popularity many years ago, so there's not many left that I know of.

It just got to be where brands had next to no demand for it, and brands that did use it were criticized for using it over better ingredients.

I know that on our end, I haven't had a request for arginine in over 10 years.

It first fell out of popularity in pump products in favor of Citrulline Malate and then in favor of L-Citrulline, and in favor of many of the newer more advanced ingredients.

We use Nitrosigine in Super Swole capsules.

Nitrosigine is Inositol Stabilized Arginine Silicate, a clinically researched form of arginine that has been shown to have both immediate and cumulative benefits.

In studies, Nitrosigine was shown to dilate blood vessels up to 500% more than regular arginine. It was shown to increase blood concentrations of arginine for up to 1.5 hours after using it for the very first time. Then it was shown to increase blood arginine levels for up to 6 hours.

That's a big reason we use it in Super Swole caps, because some people use it only for pre-workout purposes, but then many people use it daily for improved muscle fullness and cardiovascular and endothelial health.

I like Nitrosigine much better than regular arginine, but I still think that it works much better in a formulation with other ingredients that target increasing nitric oxide in different pathways. That's why we chose to use it in a formula but never offered it as a single ingredient.

By combining it with Agmatine, you also target increasing nitric oxide levels and inhibiting nitric oxide synthase (the enzyme responsible for nitric oxide breakdown), plus a lot of other overall health benefits. Agmatine's inhibition of nitric oxide synthase is why some people refer to it as a nitric oxide extender because it may prolong the NO boosting effects of other nitric oxide boosters.

Super Swole also contains S7, which is unique and different from arginine and other nitric oxide boosting compounds because it works by helping increase your body's natural levels of nitric oxide production. S7 is included in a lot of pre-workouts and pump products, but I'm much more of a fan of using it in formulas that are daily use formulas because that's how it is going to deliver the best results.

Oh, and Super Swole caps also contain Amentoflavone that helps with pumps and endurance, so it adds a nice touch to the pump benefits from Super Swole and also helps with the endothelial health benefits.

The write up goes into more detail about Nitrosigine and why the different ingredients are used together:

Super Swole Capsules - Competitive Edge Labs, LLC

Stimulant Free Pre-Workout & Pump Enhancer. 30 Servings. Convenient Capsule Form. Massive Pumps, Endurance, Improved Performance, & More.

competitiveedgelabs.com

I hope that info helps.

gonna add this to my wish list with the xpg carnitine I think lol

 

[Resolve10]

Agmatine is a great ingredient on its own and it has so many more benefits than people realize.

It's a great example of an ingredient that became so associated with one thing, that its other benefits are often overlooked.

It became so associated with pumps and nitric oxide that a lot of people don't realize how big of a variety of benefits it has outside of that use. It is also used for, and has studies on it that apply to stress and anxiety, nootropic properties, neuroprotective properties, GDA benefits, and a lot more.

One thing that it is very good for at higher dosages, but companies can't legally market it for is that it has been shown to help with nicotine, alcohol, and even opiate withdrawal.

I've also heard some great success stories of it along with KannaEase helping with Kratom withdrawal.

Love this stuff, super versatile.

 

[thescience]

I enjoy nutricost aakg, and in some ways I like aakg better than l-citrulline. Nitrosigine is great stuff, and has nootropic benefits as well.

Nitrates are the sustained pump ingredient, with a half life of 12hrs iirc. Icariin also has good sustained effects. Otherwise, taladafil-type stuff (which I've never tried).

yeah i had a bad experience with citrulline peptides and what should have been a good enough dosage. right now i have the best pump ive had in years using double dosed nitrosigine with 4.5g of calcium-alpha ketaglutarate. not sure if the ketaglutarate is contributing to any volumization, but i feel an increased desired to flex that i missed out on going the citrulline route. i also feel a kick in energy, which i saw alot of AKG users were using it for. some skin improvements too. citrulline arginine and ornithine all exist on a continuous conversion loop, so i cant really explain why i had better results from sustained release Aakg and regular ornithine ketaglutarate powder (which was also decent and better than my citrulline run.) i was estimating the citrulline peptides to be 50% citrulline based on other amino peptide products i had information for. it's possible that figure was wrong and i underdosed.

 

[thescience]

I can’t even imagine trying to dose Nitrosigine at 3g let alone twice a day.

I think you are just running into some severe diminishing returns and have to ask yourself what benefit are you even getting out of trying to bump this so high?

Citrulline will have a longer duration of effect and at higher dosages much less likelihood of stomach discomfort, after that you’d get more benefit looking into alternate pathways like limiting nitric oxide breakdown via something like agmatine. Hit some different pathways via things like nitrates, etc.

Idk what benefit you are looking for though. Plenty of these things provide tangible benefits to things like pump and performance without needs for crazy dosing schemes.

the returns definitely arent diminishing. double the dose and i feel double the pump density and erection strength. im open to the idea the agmatine added to nitrosigine is an awesome combo that could eliminate the need to dose big, but as a standalone nitrosigine is arguably under dosed. i mean, i dont know the if the odds of gi issues increase too much at the 3g, or it just isnt viewed as econmically viable, im just saying more is better in terms of the pump folks. not as good as the old mri no2 the day after a workout following lunch, but the best ive had in years of horsing around with solo herbal pump products

i dislike the idea of dosing certain aminos at 6g plus doses, but ive done it for long periods of time . i dont think the market dried up, people are just getting their citrulline or arginine with a host of other ingredients in a preworkout scoop now. im ok with dosing something like nitrosigine higher because effort was made to make the arginine in it better absorbed. i wouldnt take an Aakg powder at 3g, but i feel like the sustained release formulations were well tolerated at that amount.

 

[poison]

Why haven't you tried nitrates? They are the king in this category.

 

[thescience]

Why haven't you tried nitrates? They are the king in this category.

great suggestion. ive had bad luck with a few beet products ive tried where nothing happened. I have a huge bag of sodium nitrate used for cooking purposes. stuff is dirt cheap. as i recall, i got the chills from it. maybe with continued use that wouldnt be an issue. i did an arugula run that started yeilding some awesome results, but it was such a hassle getting that amount in every day and it was. i think adding some would be responsible though, so im going to. maybe not in the most ideal amount. any recommendations? do you feel nitrates provided the same benefits as your Aakg usage?

 

[Resolve10]

Lots of the beet products have issues with quality and then even good quality can run into issues with the standardization amounts of nitrate in them. There are some good ones out there though.

Nitrates are >>>> most things for me. You need to find the right dose though as too much isn’t good either and when in combo with some things you may not need a ton (and may depend on dietary intake as well).

 

[poison]

Nitrates provide the biggest, long lasting pumps around, due the the extra long half life. Nitrates increase endurance:

The effects of dietary nitrate supplementation on endurance exercise performance and cardiorespiratory measures in healthy adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PMC (nih.gov)

Nitrates potentiate the effects of caffeine:

The Effect of Creatine Nitrate and Caffeine Individually or Combined on Exercise Performance and Cognitive Function: A Randomized, Crossover, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial - PMC (nih.gov)

Two grams creatine nitrate, which is ~50% nitrate iirc, provides some badass effects. Use caution, too much can definitely cause severe problems >> death. Also, get vit c in there somewhere too.

 

[Resolve10]

I believe Arginine Nitrate is 250mg per gram, Betaine Nitrate is 350mg per gram, and Creatine Nitrate is 300mg per gram or they are all roughly like that, I forget the exact chemistry.

500mg-1g Nitrate is prob the most necessary for most people.

 

[thescience]

Nitrates provide the biggest, long lasting pumps around, due the the extra long half life. Nitrates increase endurance:

The effects of dietary nitrate supplementation on endurance exercise performance and cardiorespiratory measures in healthy adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PMC (nih.gov)

Nitrates potentiate the effects of caffeine:

The Effect of Creatine Nitrate and Caffeine Individually or Combined on Exercise Performance and Cognitive Function: A Randomized, Crossover, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial - PMC (nih.gov)

Two grams creatine nitrate, which is ~50% nitrate iirc, provides some badass effects. Use caution, too much can definitely cause severe problems >> death. Also, get vit c in there somewhere too.

wow. looks like nitrate effects last around 24 hours. i noticed a pretty strong accumulation effect with daily use of arugula as well. looks like the death you referred to would be from hypotension. methemoglobinemia could also be a side effect. the caffeine study was interesting, since caffeine is a vasoconstrictor and nitrates are vasodialators. perhaps the combo resulted in a reduced nitrate benefit, but a benefit regardless, which combined with the individual benefits of caffeine and creatine resulted in better outcomes?

 

[thescience]

I believe Arginine Nitrate is 250mg per gram, Betaine Nitrate is 350mg per gram, and Creatine Nitrate is 300mg per gram or they are all roughly like that, I forget the exact chemistry.

500mg-1g Nitrate is prob the most necessary for most people.

good info. i didnt realize people were dosing that high. it's starting to look like nitrates are how everyone is pumping up these days. i was alittle turned off by the concept when i began hearing about users who stated that continued use was resulting in reduced efficacy. any truth to that?

 

[sns8778]

good info. i didnt realize people were dosing that high. it's starting to look like nitrates are how everyone is pumping up these days. i was alittle turned off by the concept when i began hearing about users who stated that continued use was resulting in reduced efficacy. any truth to that?

No, its not how everyone is.

Different people like different things and respond differently to different things.

There are a lot of great pump ingredients out there - its not that one is necessarily better than the other, its about finding what's best for you. One person may like nitrates, the next may much prefer Agmatine, Amentoflavone, or something else.

There's also some really cool new pump ingredients on the horizon.

 

[Rad83]

Carbs, water/hydration, electrolytes..salt etc.
Need all the above dialed in.
Supplements are just icing on the cake

 

[poison]

good info. i didnt realize people were dosing that high. it's starting to look like nitrates are how everyone is pumping up these days. i was alittle turned off by the concept when i began hearing about users who stated that continued use was resulting in reduced efficacy. any truth to that?

Yes, that can happen, but taking 100-200mg vit c with it can ameliorate that.

 

[poison]

wow. looks like nitrate effects last around 24 hours. i noticed a pretty strong accumulation effect with daily use of arugula as well. looks like the death you referred to would be from hypotension. methemoglobinemia could also be a side effect. the caffeine study was interesting, since caffeine is a vasoconstrictor and nitrates are vasodialators. perhaps the combo resulted in a reduced nitrate benefit, but a benefit regardless, which combined with the individual benefits of caffeine and creatine resulted in better outcomes?

Hypotension, yes.

Caffeine is interesting; it's a vasoconstrictor overall, but a vasodilator in smooth muscle. As far as nitrates and caffeine, many people 'feel' caffeine more, or require less caffeine, when taking nitrates.

 

[poison]

I believe Arginine Nitrate is 250mg per gram, Betaine Nitrate is 350mg per gram, and Creatine Nitrate is 300mg per gram or they are all roughly like that, I forget the exact chemistry.

500mg-1g Nitrate is prob the most necessary for most people.

That's a solid dose. You're probably right about the percentage of nitrate in various supps. This study agrees:

Acute and chronic safety and efficacy of dose dependent creatine nitrate supplementation and exercise performance - PubMed (nih.gov)

 

[Resolve10]

Yes, that can happen, but taking 100-200mg vit c with it can ameliorate that.

It’s been a bit since I brushed up on nitrates (so that one study you posted was great hadn’t seen that!), but ya Vit C is important and Arginine can help alleviate tolerance as well.

Arginine and nitrate tolerance

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hypotension, yes.

Caffeine is interesting; it's a vasoconstrictor overall, but a vasodilator in smooth muscle. As far as nitrates and caffeine, many people 'feel' caffeine more, or require less caffeine, when taking nitrates.

I almost posted that word for word so thanks!

Nitrates also could potentially increase calcium release (muscle contraction) which may serve as a way it works in step with caffeine for performance (I haven’t had a chance to read that study fully maybe they talk about that!).

Amentoflavone is proposed to work similarly, could be a pretty potent combo.

Dietary nitrate increases tetanic [Ca2+]i and contractile force in mouse fast-twitch muscle - PubMed

Dietary inorganic nitrate has profound effects on health and physiological responses to exercise. Here, we examined if nitrate, in doses readily achievable via a normal diet, could improve Ca(2+) handling and contractile function using fast- and slow-twitch skeletal muscles from C57bl/6 male...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov