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need some help from you guys

nfn166

New member
Although I do lift a bit, I'm not really seriously into bodybuilding or powerlifting or anything. I've come here to ask if any of you guys might be able to give me some answers to a few questions I have.

About 8 months ago, my doctor started my on exogenous testosterone just to see if it might improve my libido. My total testosterone level was normal at the time, although it was toward the low end of normal. For the first five months, he had me using Androgel 1%. Then, for the past three months, he switched me to a 200mg injection of deca testosterone every 30 days. In these 8 months, I haven't really noticed any dramatic improvements and have decided that I would rather not use it anymore. I have talked to two different doctors about the side effects of cessation of testosterone use and had an appointment with an endocrinologist yesterday. About all they can tell me is that I have shut down my natural production and there will be an uncertain amount of time neccessary for me to begin production again. The endocrinologist adviced me against using anything like clomid or HCG and says I should just wait it out and see what happens. He is going to test me for total testosterone, free testosterone, FSH, and LH every month for the next year. He says I may begin production in a few weeks, a year, or maybe never! I'm pretty worried about this and would like some more definite answers than this. I'm hoping that you guys who have experience with using androgens can give me your opinions on what I might expect to happen within my body over the coming weeks and months. Any guesses on when I'll start producing testosterone again or what other side effects I can anticipate? I never really had low libido before; just periodic episodes of it. Am I going to completely lose my libido now and , if so, how long should it take to return to something resembling normal? I hope some of you guys might be able to give me your thoughts on this because, so far, the doctors have left me with a lot of unanswered questions. Thanks!
 
Well you were running a low dose of test deca for what I would venture to guess was an extended period of time. If I was you, regardless of what the doctor said I would run a PCT style getup for the next few weeks utilizing nolva, clomid, DHEA, some natural test boosters such as Activate, ZMA, or Fenugreek, etc. Sure, your body may eventually begin to produce test again, but why not help it out a bit?
 
nfn166 said:
Although I do lift a bit, I'm not really seriously into bodybuilding or powerlifting or anything. I've come here to ask if any of you guys might be able to give me some answers to a few questions I have.

About 8 months ago, my doctor started my on exogenous testosterone just to see if it might improve my libido. My total testosterone level was normal at the time, although it was toward the low end of normal. For the first five months, he had me using Androgel 1%. Then, for the past three months, he switched me to a 200mg injection of deca testosterone every 30 days. In these 8 months, I haven't really noticed any dramatic improvements and have decided that I would rather not use it anymore. I have talked to two different doctors about the side effects of cessation of testosterone use and had an appointment with an endocrinologist yesterday. About all they can tell me is that I have shut down my natural production and there will be an uncertain amount of time neccessary for me to begin production again. The endocrinologist adviced me against using anything like clomid or HCG and says I should just wait it out and see what happens. He is going to test me for total testosterone, free testosterone, FSH, and LH every month for the next year. He says I may begin production in a few weeks, a year, or maybe never! I'm pretty worried about this and would like some more definite answers than this. I'm hoping that you guys who have experience with using androgens can give me your opinions on what I might expect to happen within my body over the coming weeks and months. Any guesses on when I'll start producing testosterone again or what other side effects I can anticipate? I never really had low libido before; just periodic episodes of it. Am I going to completely lose my libido now and , if so, how long should it take to return to something resembling normal? I hope some of you guys might be able to give me your thoughts on this because, so far, the doctors have left me with a lot of unanswered questions. Thanks!
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You said you were getting 200mg of "deca" test.
Are you sure it wasn't depo test?
If you were getting anything "deca" related I don't think it would help your libido.
 
Your endo is probably correct in that your test production will probably kick back in on it's own, but without pct type support it will take longer and you run a small risk of permanent shutdown..although this seems to be exceedingly rare. Lots of BBers do incredibly long cycles, with a substandard PCT and come out of it just fine..it's just not wise if you have the proper pct drugs available.

I don't see any harm in running some nolva or torm to aid restoration. This will skew some of the results and may invite suspicion on the part of your endo though.
 
I'm really not sure what he was giving me. I never asked. He just referred to it as testosterone. Yesterday, when I was at the endocrinologist, I asked him what it was I was receiving. He said the the records from my other doctor just say 200mg testosterone and don't specify. He said he thought it was probably "deca" or maybe I just thought that was what he said; perhaps he said depo. I really don't know. He told me to stay away from Clomid and HCG or anything else to try to shorten the time it takes for recovery. I didn't ask why. I asked, "do they not work?" and he just laughed and said, "don't mess with anything like that". I really don't want to risk not making a full recovery and I'd ne willing to do whatever I need to do to insure a full recovery. If my doc doesn't prescribe something, I have no idea where to get it though. The fact that most people have a full recovery even without using anything is encouraging news. Just don't want to take any chances.

One question that keeps worrying me is "how long should I expect it to take before I know whether or not I'm recovering my natural production?" Any guesses?

Thanks for the replies....this is the only place I've found where people have any knowledge about this. I appreciate the help.
 
As for length of recovery..it varies considerably between individuals. It usually takes about 4-8 weeks to get test numbers closer to normal with PCT. Without..hard to say. It could take several months. During this time you may be a little lethargic or depressed butit should go away as test levels rise to a decent level.
 
First thing you need to do is start educating yourself about what's going on with your body. This will give you a better idea of how things work and what needs to be fixed.

Read about Swale's protocol - gives a good idea on what others use. Invalid Link Removed

Always always ALWAYS!!! did I say always...? ask what the frack you are putting into your body.

And I would be pissed if anyone of my doctors laughed at me when I was inquiring why I should be taken something instead of giving an explanation.
 
nfn166 said:
I'm really not sure what he was giving me. I never asked. He just referred to it as testosterone. Yesterday, when I was at the endocrinologist, I asked him what it was I was receiving. He said the the records from my other doctor just say 200mg testosterone and don't specify. He said he thought it was probably "deca" or maybe I just thought that was what he said; perhaps he said depo. I really don't know. He told me to stay away from Clomid and HCG or anything else to try to shorten the time it takes for recovery. I didn't ask why. I asked, "do they not work?" and he just laughed and said, "don't mess with anything like that". I really don't want to risk not making a full recovery and I'd ne willing to do whatever I need to do to insure a full recovery. If my doc doesn't prescribe something, I have no idea where to get it though. The fact that most people have a full recovery even without using anything is encouraging news. Just don't want to take any chances.

One question that keeps worrying me is "how long should I expect it to take before I know whether or not I'm recovering my natural production?" Any guesses?

Thanks for the replies....this is the only place I've found where people have any knowledge about this. I appreciate the help.
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Deca is probably referring to the ester.
Its irritating to get a disdainful don't do anything stupid statement and if I were you I'd read up and press the endo if I see him again if levels aren't satisfactory pretty soon.
 
If he refered to it as "messing with it", and was unable to give an explaination, it could mean that he's not familiar how to use those compounds succesufully, and doesnt want to be heald responsible for reccomend something he's not comfortable with. Alot of the worst stories about AAS cessetation that I've heard were guys that didnt know much about what they were taking and took the advice of a doctor NOT to use PCT. (remember the hooton kid that shot himself? that was because the doc prescribed anti deppressents instead of PCT, cuz he didnt know how to handle that sort of situation properly.) You have a right to know what they are injecting you with. If my doc laughed when I asked a valid question and then was unable to give me a valid reason why not, he sure wouldnt be my doctor for long.
If he was giving you 200mgs of deca a month, that would not help your libido. Even if he meant testosterone with a decanoate ester it would clear your system by about day 16, wich doesnt make a lot of sense to me.
Since you dont know WHAT they were giving you I cant really comment on their logic. But I know if it were me Id think my doc was out of his mind if he thought I was going to suffer deppression, no libido or motivation for months just to "see what happens". I KNOW what will happen, I'll feel like crap for weeks or months, loosing lean mass, no sex drive, and feel weak and demotivated and weepy. If you had low test before HRT, you sure arent going to send natural levels into the stratosphere by "seeing what happens."
If america didnt have their heads so far up their arses about AAS for NON-medical use, then every doctor in the country would know their sh*t when it came to both Medical & non medical use, AND how to restore HPTA function quickly in both AAS use induced and non AAS use induced hypogonadal patients. It really upsets me sometimes.
The docs will definately no somethings up if you use HCG, but clomid or Nolva and some OTC test booster might be less noticeable. Theyd probably just think, "oh, you see your levels are coming back just fine on their own, just like I said they would". And youd just roll your eyes and be like "yeah, on their own..... thats it."
Personally Id probably use the HCG anyway, but thats because Im intimately familiar with how it works and how to self administer intramuscular injections allready. In your case "messing with that stuff" as your endo put it probably wouldnt be neccesary just yet. It could be that he does have protocol's for HCG, but doesnt like to use them unless as a last resort. (for what ever his reasons may be.)
You dont have to be rude, but I do think you should be politely persistant in getting theese two docs to answer your questions. Simply explain that its iimportant to you to know. They may just not want to have to think of how to "dumb it down for the patient." But if you start reading your arse off about this stuff, you could have enough of an understanding to show that you could get what their talking about if theyd just try you. Might take a while, but Its good stuff to know anyway IMO.
 
Personally, I would take the Doctors advice, there are many factors involved and you may not be aware of them. It could take up to a year or more to come back, I wouldnt stop lifting weights during that time and I would avoid any hormonals. I would take Vicon-C and RLA on a regular basis though.
 
Don't do what your endo said. There's absolutely no good reason to follow that approach short of your doctor's sheer ignorance. There is a well-developed science surrounding these issues, and there are doctors that specialize in them. Go to Allthingsmale.com and try to get appointment with Dr. John Crisler (a/k/a Swale) He will have you up and running in no time and is one of the few doctors I've ever met who is genuinely more concerned with how the patient feels than he is with covering his ass. Seriously, your endo is ignorant; there are no facts in what you have articulated here that would advise against the appropriately prescribed usage of HCG and Tamoxifen or Clomid.
 
I'm not sure why the doctor put you on test for slacking libido, as there are other drugs just for that. HRT is a great thing if you have been diagnosed properly and your doctor is educated in this field. Hormone replacement therapy is usually a lifetime commitment. I am on Anadrol and I have to say I haven't felt better than I do now in many years. Everything is great. Lean muscle mass is steadily improving, body fat is dropping, libido is so up I feel like I'm 20 years old again. Workouts are awesome. If I felt any better I'd be somebody else! Seriously, you need to talk to a doctor that knows the score. If a doctor laughed at me when I ask a question, He would not get the chance to answer another one. I'd find a new doctor.
 
thanks for all the replies. I've been searching my butt off for someone with some answers and you guys are coming through with some good stuff for me. I have familiarized myself with whats happening in my body by reading everything I can find. I wish I had done that before I agreed to let him try this on me 8 months ago.

I've had this same family doctor for about 20 years now. I'm 40 now and about 10 years ago I started having occasional bouts of ED. I've discussed it with him and he's given me Viagra which, by the way, works great. Actually, I usually do pretty good on my own without any Viagra. Sometimes I still get some problems from ED though, so I asked him if there was anything else I could do to avoid it. He told me that sometimes a little testosterone boost will remedy that problem and asked if I'd like to give it a try. He told me absolutely nothing about what it does to natural production or the side effects of stopping usage of it. He certainly didn't say anything about it being a lifetime committment. As far as I knew, it was something I could try and if it didn't show promising results, I could just quit, no damage done.

While using it, I thought that it might be making a small difference, but there was really no significant change. I just kept doing it for these months, thinking that maybe over time it would benefit me. I really had no clue that I was shutting down natural production. I actually believed that as soon as the injection wore off, my testicles would kick back in immediately. BIG surprise when another doctor told me the truth about it all! Scared the crap out of me and I'm still pretty shaken up about it. I just want to quit using it and get back to where I was before. My levels my have been low/normal, but I had strong sex drive and felt pretty good most of the time. I would much prefer to go back to that than to have to continue these injections for life.

I live in a very remote area and had to travel 220 miles to the nearest endocrinologist. He is the only one I could locate within that distance. I would rather go to another endo who is more experienced with this sort of thing. I did look at the allthingsmale website and would love to go see that doctor, but he's in Michigan and I'm in Texas. Don't know if I could pull that off or not. How does a person make an appointment with him anyway? Just call him up and catch a flight to Michigan? Maybe that's what I'll have to do.

I keep hearing you guys suggest Clomid, Nova, HCG, and other such drugs. I wouldn't have a clue where to get them or how to use them without a doctor guiding me through it. I guess I'm just screwed unless I find a doctor who is knowledgeable in their use.

It seemed like the endo I went to was a reputable guy, but maybe his practice is more focused on other aspects of endocrinology? Perhaps he doesn't have experience with this? Do you guys go to endocrinologists and get them to prescribe these drugs for you? How should I go about finding someone who will help me with this? I don't want to be waiting a year to see if my natural production might kick back in. I want to get this over with and get back to normal asap. I don't think my girlfriend is going to be happy with no libido for a year. That could really foul up a relationship! I'm feeling pretty desperate to find a solution, so please keep the advice coming. You guys are a huge help to me right now.
 
Send an e-mail to Swale. His address is on the website. He will get back to you. You have to fly to Michigan to see him initially and be examined and interviewed, but you can have blood tests run locally and forwarded to him, and he can prescribe whatever is necessary from his office in Michigan. I'm telling you, it's the single best investment I ever made. The guy does total hormone management, from top to bottom, in the most sophisticated way possible. He's one of the few docs that is the real deal in this area. Guys that have been on serious doses of serious steroids for years without coming off go see the doc and he brings them back. My lab rat has personal experience in this regard.

As for research chemicals for your lab rat, try IBE, a board sponsor, which carries them all at reasonable prices. They'll take good care of you. And no, I have no financial or other interest in this board, IBE, or Allthingsmale. I just know what you're going through and want to help. It's what this board is for.

Separately, and this is me playing armchair doctor, if you're 40, you might want to consider going on an appropriate HRT dose of test for the rest of your life. By 40, your natty test production is falling precipitously. I know mine dropped badly at about 37-38. I'm now on 200mg of Test Cyp each week, divided into two shots, and HCG everyday of 100iu, and I also use a very moderate does of :woohoo: :woohoo: growth hormone everday. Yes, all this can be a bit of a pain, but I feel great, my libido is up, and at the end of the day, what's a little hassle to maintain your hormones as if you were 21 again? Hell, I'd do six painful shots a day if I had to! It's worth it.

In any event, talk to Swale, he'll give you the medically appropriate options and you can choose what's best for you. And Swale is amazingly cheap (don't tell him that!), aside from having to get a flight to East Lansing, Michigan.
 
If going to Michigan to see Swale is the answer, then I'll find a way to make it happen. I sent him an email and will see what sort of response I get.

While I was at his site, I did some reading. I found something of interest that I found a little confusing, considering what I've been reading elsewhere. In his article on Testosterone Replacement Therapy, he states "that some physicians believe that HCG can be used as a break in TRT. They also erroneously believe this allows HPTA to recover, which it clearly does not. HCG induced testosterone production is every bit as suppressive of HPTA as the testosterone replacement therapy."

I'm a little confused here....is their actually a way to kick start natural test production or not???? Is HCG just a quick fix without potential for lasting results? I keep reading references to lifelong committment once testosterone replacement is started and its kinda freaking me out. I don't want a lifelong committment and would prefer to get back to natural testosterone production. I'm a little afraid that I'll never recover my previous levels of endogenous production.
 
The HCG wont restore GnRH (gonadatropin releasing hormone) or LH (Leutenizing Hormone) wich is triggered by GnRH. Rather the HCG replaces or substitutes for the LH. The HCG wont get the whole HPTA up and running. What it can do is coax the leydig cells (the intersitital cells in the testicles that make testosterone) to reorientate themselves with RESPONDING to natural LH. Its not meant to be something you use as a crutch all the way until you resume testosterone replacement therapy. The Serms (nolva aka tamoxifen, toremifene, and clomid) and the Aromatase inhibitors (anastrozole, letrozole, exemestane) are the ones credited with upregulation of GnRH and LH. They take a while to work, and it helps if the leydigs are allready reaquainted with how to respond to LH once the SERMS start to kick in. But they arent meant to be run indefinately either, and they have some uncomfortable side effects. Especially when at high doses and/or long periods of time.
Talk to Swale. I have no way of knowing if Leydig cell responsiveness has much to do with your case or if its a lack of LH, or a lack of both GnRH and LH. Swale has a reputation as one of the premier guys on the planet for this sort of thing. Just keep reading up like your doing now, and see what Swale has to say. And if theres anything we can help with over here at AM we'd be more than happy to ablidge. I'd like to see you get through this. I've been shut down before, and it feels terrible. Best of luck to you.
 
nfn166 said:
I keep reading references to lifelong committment once testosterone replacement is started and its kinda freaking me out. I don't want a lifelong committment and would prefer to get back to natural testosterone production. I'm a little afraid that I'll never recover my previous levels of endogenous production.
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First of all RELAX! I was once shut down for a while...and I enjoyed the break from women!!! So enjoy your break cus it won't last and soon you'll be needing them again.

You received some good advice in this thread and some poor advice. Your doctor failed you. What he should have done is tested your free testosterone. I am sure it was low to began with. There is a ligan in Nettle Root which increases the amount of free testosterone by binding to SHBG (which binds with testosterone and takes it out of commission so to speak) thereby leaving more testosterone unbound and available. A board sponsor has isolated the ligan and sells it in concentrated form as Activate. Taking Activate will increase your free testosterone substantially and your libido will be improved.

Your doctor prescribed testosterone and now he is failing to help you recover from his actions. The reason is simply he does not know how to do so in a way that is safe for his insurance premiums. Nolva, Clomid and HCG are approved for specific purposes none of which involves restoring male potency. These uses are "off the brocheure" and it is up to you to use them to help yourself.

Dr.D on this board has covered this topic thoroughly. He has helped many. If you do not understand the protocol and wish to help yourself you can do so with a little bit of research. If you have only confidence in the medical community than you must use Dr. Swale's services. You will not be one of his tougher cases. It will be easy money for him and very soon you will be back mess'n round with them womens.
 
I got a response to my email from Swale. He simply states that he can only reply with advice to those who are his patients. I guess that means I need to get an appointment with him and make a trip to Michigan. If there's anything that can be done to speed up the process of natural testosterone recovery, it would be worth the price of a trip to Michigan to me. Anybody know if I can use my health insurance with him or does all of the expense have to come out of my own pocket?

Its been 15 days since I had my last injection and I still seem to have pretty normal sex drive....maybe just a little diminished, but I'm feeling pretty crappy in the afternoon and evenings for the past couple of days. I think my test level must be quickly dropping and I'm afraid its going to get a lot worse in coming weeks.

According to the endo I saw a couple days ago, I will always have SOME testosterone in my blood. Perhaps only a small amount, but it will never fall to zero. If Activate blocks the binding of testosterone, is there a chance that it's use could free up enough of this minute amount that I might have to make a difference?

I probably won't have an opportunity to take off of work long enough to go to Michigan until the beginning of June. That will leave me with two and a half months to suffer through this crap before I can go see Swale. Will his services still be able to benefit me if I wait that long or is it important to get to him right away? If it is really urgent that I get to him asap, I suppose I could take off of work for a coouple of days as emergency leave. How long would I have to stay in Michigan? Is it just a one time visit and then I go back home or does it require an extended stay up there?

I'm sure you guys have much more interesting things to discuss than some poor b@$t@rd who used testosterone without knowing what the hell he was doing, but I certainly appreciate your willingness to help me out here.
 
Thats a pretty long time to be in no-test land. IMO it would defeat the purpose of getting back to normal quickly to wait till june, but you will most likely still need his help by then, but it just depends on how long you can stand having no test. If what the doctor gave you was in fact tesosterone Deconoate, then by day 15 you havent actually gone through the real crash yet, as a tiny bit of it is still circulating up until as long as day 16. Sometimes you dont notice the crash until a couple days of having extremely low test. You have a few options. You can wait and do nothing till June. You could get an appointment ASAP and take an emergency leave. Or you could "self administer", a serm an or an aromatase inhibitor, and maybe some nettle root (activate).(check board sponsers). Then wait and see how that works. If that helps you may still need Swale, and I dont know if he'd scold you for self administering or not. Its a tough call, but ultimately its a decision you have to make yourself. Just get as informed. I cant tell you wich is best. If I say take a leave from work, and then they turn around and fire you or scold you for it at work, then Id feel pretty crappy. If I tell you to self administer and something goes wrong or doesnt work out, Id feel bad. If you wait till june and stay shut down the whole time from not doing anything, youll feel bad. Or who know, maybe by then your test will come back on its own. But I doubt it cuz it was low BEFORE the testosterone therapy.
 
I am waiting for another reply from Swale. I'm seriously considering making a trip to Michigan to go see him if he can help me get through this crap. I really don't want to self-administer simply because I don't know enough about this to know what to use and in what quantities it should be administered. If I need to use something to get me back up and running, then I would prefer for an expert to decide how to go about it.

Today is day 16 since my last injection. I've been feeling like crap in the afternoons and evenings, but feel pretty normal in the early morning. I keep thinking that maybe my testosterone level is higher in the morning, but since I'm not producing any on my own, I don't know if the level fluctuates during the day or not.

Before I started the test replacement, I felt pretty good most of the time. My testosterone level was not checked prior to administration of test replacement. The last time it was checked was over 5 years ago. At that time, it was in the normal range, but was not far from the bottom of the normal range. Of course, they only checked total and did not check free testosterone at that time. That was the only time I had ever had it checked. I think it may have been a bit low prior to the test replacment, but it was not extremely low. I have always had plenty of energy, strength, good mental clarity, good muscle tone, a healthy sex drive, a profusion of body and facial hair, etc., so I think I was probably producing adequate testosterone. The whole reason that I even started this testosterone replacement business was because I've experienced some periodic ED problems in the past. It was never severe, but was irritating to me when it did occur. I've been discussing it with my doctor for several years and he finally said, "maybe you just need a little testosterone boost". He didn't tell me anything at all about shutting down HPTA or the side effects of quitting the treatment, so I was unaware of any of that. I just assumed it was something I could try just to see if it made any difference and then could quit using it if it didn't help. If I had known that it was going to shut down my natural production for an extended period of time, I never would have risked it. I would be perfectly content to return to my prior testosterone levels now and hope that I can get there without a long period of grief.
 
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