How hard is too hard?

[TESTP89]

Is there a limit as to how hard you can train a muscle beyond a certain point and no matter how much you butcher that muscle you can only grow so much?

If you're go as hard as you can or think you can on a bodypart say one time a week.. Good food...Sleep.... Recovery etc.....

Is the rule the harder you train the more muscle you get? Or can you train to a certain point and no matter how hard you train after that intensity it makes no difference to muscle gain?

 

[Ironpirate]

Is there a limit as to how hard you can train a muscle beyond a certain point and no matter how much you butcher that muscle you can only grow so much?

If you're go as hard as you can or think you can on a bodypart say one time a week.. Good food...Sleep.... Recovery etc.....

Is the rule the harder you train the more muscle you get? Or can you train to a certain point and no matter how hard you train after that intensity it makes no difference to muscle gain?

This will depend on genetics and peds. I've done the Bulgarian squat method where you squat every single day for 90 days and I just kept the intensity as high as possible. It's not for everyone but if you have been lifting 10 plus years and know your body well it's possible. Injury risk will get worse as you go so I wouldn't do it without aas.

 

[Smont]

Lee Haney, one of the all time greats use to say stimulate, don't annihilate.

Jay Cutler, multiple mister Olympia winner and probably the greatest embassador for bodybuilding ever said he almost never went to failure through his entire career.

Dorian Yates always went to failure and beyond

Ronnie Coleman went to failure 2 x a week

Surge nubret was extremely high volume and zero failure.

The answer is to find out how much you need to stimulate growth and then stop and recover.

Sometimes you might need to beat that muscle to a pulp and sometimes you just need to follow progressive overload principles

 

[Smont]

All training styles work, you just gotta find your style.

Something that works great is periods of both. If you been killing it hard and heavy for a long time then switch to higher reps and more sets and leave a rep or 2 in the tank. And if your already doing high volume for a long time switch it up and start doing more intensity

 

[G34RS]

All training styles work, you just gotta find your style.

Something that works great is periods of both. If you been killing it hard and heavy for a long time then switch to higher reps and more sets and leave a rep or 2 in the tank. And if your already doing high volume for a long time switch it up and start doing more intensity

100% agree. I’ve found some of the biggest strength increases have come when I take some time off or ease up after going really hard for a while.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

How hard is too hard? I guess when your muscles cramp up really badly or snap or you wake up the next day and you just don't want to get out of bed and the thought of going to the gym is dreadful.

Look at this poor guy. Overdid it and paid for it.

 

[TESTP89]

Lee Haney, one of the all time greats use to say stimulate, don't annihilate.

Jay Cutler, multiple mister Olympia winner and probably the greatest embassador for bodybuilding ever said he almost never went to failure through his entire career.

Dorian Yates always went to failure and beyond

Ronnie Coleman went to failure 2 x a week

Surge nubret was extremely high volume and zero failure.

The answer is to find out how much you need to stimulate growth and then stop and recover.

Sometimes you might need to beat that muscle to a pulp and sometimes you just need to follow progressive overload principles

Yeah I need to destroy it... The more sore I am is the time I notice more gains ...

 

[TheMrMuscle]

It depends on how your programming is set up.

Basically you have 3 variables that can change:

• Intensity
• Volume
• Frequency

You can go all in on maximum 2 of these if you expect to be able to recover from it.

So if you have high intensity and volume, then your frequency should be tapered down.
If you do high frequency and volume, your intensity cant be max.
Etc.

Genetics and PEDs also plays a big role in how hard you should push it.

Just remember, being sore is not a good indicator of muscle growth.

 

[TESTP89]

It depends on how your programming is set up.

Basically you have 3 variables that can change:

• Intensity
• Volume
• Frequency

You can go all in on maximum 2 of these if you expect to be able to recover from it.

So if you have high intensity and volume, then your frequency should be tapered down.
If you do high frequency and volume, your intensity cant be max.
Etc.

Genetics and PEDs also plays a big role in how hard you should push it.

Just remember, being sore is not a good indicator of muscle growth.

I agree and agree that you need from time to time to push it to beyond failure with lots of volume but can't do that too often like you say... But you've got to max out like that from time to time.

Makes me wonder how the **** Branch was doing what he did 5 days a week... OK form wasn't amazing but that doesn't take away from the fact that he trained very hard....

Branch though as intense as his training was, his drug regime was probably pushed to the max as well...

People go on about Dorian's intensity but very overrated compared to say Branch Milos Sarcev for example.....

Milos was training twice a day too.

Dorian was about 4 days.....

Never was a big fan of Yates and I'm British...Coleman...Cutler... Branch are my guys....

Yates has a weird cult following....

But then I support my guy from Wales Flex Lewis who had his moments of training very hard but on average nothing out of the normal....

Marcus Ruhl too was a beast.

 

[Smont]

Yeah I need to destroy it... The more sore I am is the time I notice more gains ...

I've seen you say that, but what I'm asking is how many times have you taken a step back and tried a different training style for a extended period of time.


Like here's a example.

For years I almost never went to failure on purpose, first it was full body 3xweek with 1 exercise per body part. Made very fast size and strength gains but stalled in a few months, then just focused on getting 3 sets of 6-8 reps and then adding 5 lbs to the bar doing 2 exercises per body part on a ppl routine, Occasionally I would fail and repeat the weight. Progress stalled after about a 6 months.
Then I switched to a bro split and killed it, high intensity, drop sets and rest pause ect. Progress started up again, only failure on the last set per exercise.

Then I started getting hurt and switched to more volume, not really hitting failure but just going till the pump gets painful and then stop, doing this while still following progressive overload principles currently and it's working good, every 3-4weeks I plan to have a week where I destroy ****, then active deload and repeat. Idk how long this is going to work but il ride it out.

What I'm getting at is we need to switch it up once in a while. If progress has stalled or your getting injured maybe make a change.

If everything is working tho stay the same.

How much have your lifts increased over the past year. Has your pressing movements gone up 15-20lbs for reps, leg exercises 20+lbs for reps. Add 5-10lbs on isolation work.

Stuff like that you should keep notes on and use it to help figure out when to change things.

I also say you say that you got to max out from time to time, no you absolutely don't ever need to max out unless your a powerlifter peaking for a meet. Talk to pretty much any high level amateur or pro bodybuilders and they will tell you they never max out, most will never go under 6-8 reps. Maxing out with 1-3 reps has no place in bodybuilding, it doesn't build much if any muscle and has a big risk and small reward

 

[Smont]

I do occasionally max out and do 3 rep sets, but it's because I want to, not because it's good for building muscle

 

[TESTP89]

To be honest more and more I'm listening to my body.... I'm not looking for an injury and as much as I'm thinking I need to go crazy every session this is not the case.

I have enjoyed the 5x5 and 3x3 sessions...

Depends what mood I'm in.

 

[Smont]

To be honest more and more I'm listening to my body.... I'm not looking for an injury and as much as I'm thinking I need to go crazy every session this is not the case.

I have enjoyed the 5x5 and 3x3 sessions...

Depends what mood I'm in.

I love lifting heavy. 3-5 reps on everything is what I enjoy most. But there's a big risk for injury, especially as we get older. I got a partial tear in my left rotator cuff and my lower back acts up quite often. So sadly I can't do those rep ranges often. I do plan in. Where I go heavy for 3 to 5 reps on my bench press, squats and deadlifts. But usually after 3 to 4 weeks of doing it I hurt myself. It's very depressing lol

 

[Smont]

@TESTP89

I will say this, one of the most important parts to your training regimen is going to be doing things that you like. Because if you don't like what you're doing you're not going to enjoy going to the gym and if you don't work out you can't make progress so if you're doing something you enjoy that's a huge Factor. Maybe just try a more balanced approach. So you start your chest day with five sets of five on bench press and then you move into a couple other exercises where you just go higher reps and get a good pump. You still get very close to failure and you want to pump that muscle full of blood till it hurts but no drop sets or anything crazy. Then maybe on back day you start off with some heavy 5x5 bent over rows or deadlifts, then you move into a couple cable exercises for higher reps or maybe do pull-ups for multiple sets till you hit a hundred and so on. You can do both things at the same time. But definitely don't eliminate things because I said or someone else said they're not good, because if you don't enjoy it you won't stick with it

 

[Smont]

Then maybe on your last set you go balls to the wall and destroy it

 

[TESTP89]

I've seen you say that, but what I'm asking is how many times have you taken a step back and tried a different training style for a extended period of time.


Like here's a example.

For years I almost never went to failure on purpose, first it was full body 3xweek with 1 exercise per body part. Made very fast size and strength gains but stalled in a few months, then just focused on getting 3 sets of 6-8 reps and then adding 5 lbs to the bar doing 2 exercises per body part on a ppl routine, Occasionally I would fail and repeat the weight. Progress stalled after about a 6 months.
Then I switched to a bro split and killed it, high intensity, drop sets and rest pause ect. Progress started up again, only failure on the last set per exercise.

Then I started getting hurt and switched to more volume, not really hitting failure but just going till the pump gets painful and then stop, doing this while still following progressive overload principles currently and it's working good, every 3-4weeks I plan to have a week where I destroy ****, then active deload and repeat. Idk how long this is going to work but il ride it out.

What I'm getting at is we need to switch it up once in a while. If progress has stalled or your getting injured maybe make a change.

If everything is working tho stay the same.

How much have your lifts increased over the past year. Has your pressing movements gone up 15-20lbs for reps, leg exercises 20+lbs for reps. Add 5-10lbs on isolation work.

Stuff like that you should keep notes on and use it to help figure out when to change things.

I also say you say that you got to max out from time to time, no you absolutely don't ever need to max out unless your a powerlifter peaking for a meet. Talk to pretty much any high level amateur or pro bodybuilders and they will tell you they never max out, most will never go under 6-8 reps. Maxing out with 1-3 reps has no place in bodybuilding, it doesn't build much if any muscle and has a big risk and small reward

Sorry I meant max put on intensity..Not 1 repper

 

[seasoned]

How hard is too hard? I guess when your muscles cramp up really badly or snap or you wake up the next day and you just don't want to get out of bed and the thought of going to the gym is dreadful.

Look at this poor guy. Overdid it and paid for it.

WOW, I could only IMAGINE how that might look, but it is as I imagined. I guess both of his arms were at EXACTLY the same strength and all, and he did too much. A lot of people don't think about it, but when you build muscle, you ALSO have to build the ligaments, tendons, and bone. If you don't, SOMETHING is going to give. In fact, you want the bones and tendons to be able to handle MORE weight than the muscle because THEN, if you can't do an eccentric, you probably can't do a concentric either.

 

[Hbbhhbbh]

What Smont said about about how important it is find training you like is bang on, took me a long time to get my head around this. The last 2 years I’ve found training to failure on most movements is how I like to train but keeping movements like squat variations and deadlift variations close to failure, basically anything that could snap me up keeping close.

been following trained by Jp the last couple of years, it training to failure and mostly consists of 2 working sets (after warmups)
example = Incline bench 80kg 5-9 reps then back off set 70kg 12-15 reps

 

[beefyfan]

How hard is too hard? I guess when your muscles cramp up really badly or snap or you wake up the next day and you just don't want to get out of bed and the thought of going to the gym is dreadful.

Look at this poor guy. Overdid it and paid for it.

This retard got what he deserved.

 

[Dustin07]

Lee Haney, one of the all time greats use to say stimulate, don't annihilate.

Jay Cutler, multiple mister Olympia winner and probably the greatest embassador for bodybuilding ever said he almost never went to failure through his entire career.

Dorian Yates always went to failure and beyond

Ronnie Coleman went to failure 2 x a week

Surge nubret was extremely high volume and zero failure.

The answer is to find out how much you need to stimulate growth and then stop and recover.

Sometimes you might need to beat that muscle to a pulp and sometimes you just need to follow progressive overload principles

Layne Norton I think says sorta the same thing. dont want to put words in his mouth but I think I recall him saying he needed to up his volume a lot for arms to grow (and also discussed improving form). I know my legs were 2" thicker when I was running xfit volume, which might be 3-5 days of squatting in a week. However, I was no stronger. just leaner and thicker. Arms however for me, another story. More volume, less volume... I've only seen improvement in arm size tied directly to cho intake on me. I can get a killer arm pump without doing a single bicep curl if food is on par. other days, I can't get a pump to save my life.