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Unanswered Going to the cardiologist tomorrow...

CroLifter

Well-known member
I am having ECG and ultrasound done, wondering should i tell him about my gear use (12 weeks of 600mg of steroids oer week, testosterone and masteron, not 600 each, 600 combined, that is all i used in my lifetime, 3 months)?

The reason i ask is because i had bad previous experiences with doctors regarding steroids. The minute i would mention it they would immediately be like yeah that is your problem stop taking them, bye. Well, no sh1t Sherlock they are causing me problems, but can we please try to discuss the medical issue itself, caused by steroids or not?

Just wondering are you guys usually open to NEW docs or not?

I am experiencing arrythmias, chest pressure/discomfort, palpitations and shortness of breath and what scares me the most, feeling like i am going to almost pass out after heavier sets and during cardio, these symptoms increased in the past 2 weeks. Interesting enough, i stopped blasting a month ago and am on a replacement dose (upped to 350mg per week 5 days ago, but basically my test is 1500ng/dl, i dont think thst is crazy high, it was 650 on 125mg) and the problems started appearing on a low cruise dose of 125 per week.

Also, i am thinking of also including a stress test, but it is pricey. I have to think about it, it would be probably wise to do it.

ps: i am doing lots of cardio, earing low fat, taking all kinds of supplements for cardiovasculwr health, my cholesterol, rbc, hematocrit, platelets are fine. I guess i am just unlucky.

It is really interesting. My aerobic capacity is actually up compared to before, but sometimes i just get a sudden shortness of breath and i get lightheaded.
 
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Brother only you can decide if you should tell your doc. Obviously it's wise to do so, but I understand where you are coming from. Keep us updated on your ejection fraction. You may want to consider very low androgenic compounds from here on out since they are typically safer on the organs, especially the heart. Primo is the safest. Lower doses of test is also a smart move. Going to keto may also help. I have a contact who is an ifbb pro who is also a cardiologist who says keto is much better on the heart, and that sugar will negatively impact your cholesterol. You may want to get your doc's opinion on your diet. Good luck buddy.
 
steve0178 said:
Brother only you can decide if you should tell your doc. Obviously it's wise to do so, but I understand where you are coming from. Keep us updated on your ejection fraction. You may want to consider very low androgenic compounds from here on out since they are typically safer on the organs, especially the heart. Primo is the safest. Lower doses of test is also a smart move. Going to keto may also help. I have a contact who is an ifbb pro who is also a cardiologist who says keto is much better on the heart, and that sugar will negatively impact your cholesterol. You may want to get your doc's opinion on your diet. Good luck buddy.
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Well obviously if it turns out i have heart disease my gear days are numbered.
But if that is the case i am 99% sure i already had an underlying problem, because really, i dont think 600mg for 12 weeks should cause these problems. I mean it may, we dont know.
Thanks for the encouragement i will keep you guys updated.

@Mathb33 yeah i was thinking about doing so, i dont want to get dismissed in the beginning

I used to have nasty palpitations when i was in puberty (the ones that make you out of breath kind) but ecg never showed anything. This will be the first time doing an ultrasound.

i am thinking...puberty-palpitations, heart is growing?
I may be wrong but you see where i am going with this.
Anyway, we will be smarter in a few days.
 
Honestly if I felt like I might have a serious problem I would tell them. They may be able to do specific tests quicker than they might otherwise.

If I went with a skin rash or something non concerning then I probably wouldn’t.

In your situation I think I would bro

In
 
Whisky said:
Honestly if I felt like I might have a serious problem I would tell them. They may be able to do specific tests quicker than they might otherwise.
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The problem is, i am not sure whether the problem is serious or not. I suffer from ocassional paranoia and panic attacks as of recently (sparked by gear)so it wouldnt be surprising if it is in my head, or i am somehow getting huge adrenalin rushes that mess with my heart. I am 95% sure my panic attacks come from too much adrenaline. I can feel it when it starts to rise within me, very similar to adrenaline rush.

But let's see what a professional has to say.

Ps: just to clarify, ejection fraction can be determined from the ultrasound, right? I dont remember ever getting informwtion about ejection fraction or left ventricular mass from the doc while doing ecg ( the most recent echocardiogram i had done about a month and a half ago)
 
Before using gear and working out, I was diagnosed with pronounced left ventricular hypertrophy. 2 years later, after cycling roids for a year, it was gone. Heart were a bit thicker -but that was to expect to see in a weight lifter, said the doc.
So, not in all cases are roids bad for your heart, I guess.
 
CroLifter said:
The problem is, i am not sure whether the problem is serious or not. I suffer from ocassional paranoia and panic attacks as of recently (sparked by gear)so it wouldnt be surprising if it is in my head, or i am somehow getting huge adrenalin rushes that mess with my heart. I am 95% sure my panic attacks come from too much adrenaline. I can feel it when it starts to rise within me, very similar to adrenaline rush.

But let's see what a professional has to say.

Ps: just to clarify, ejection fraction can be determined from the ultrasound, right? I dont remember ever getting informwtion about ejection fraction or left ventricular mass from the doc while doing ecg ( the most recent echocardiogram i had done about a month and a half ago)
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I believe they can measure your ejection fraction with ultra, but I'd have to check my records to be sure. I know they checked mine using several methods. I know for sure stress test was one. I thought an echocardiogram was another, and ultra the final, but I could be mistaken.
 
In my opinion, you shouldn't say anything at first and feel things out. Like you said - you need to determine the medical issue without any scrutiny or bias from the doctor because you've used steroids. I've had experiences as well where a doctor is unwilling to dive further into the issue because he brushes it off as steroid use.

If you were at the ER because of this it would be a different story and I'd say be as open as possible in case something serious is going on. But for trying to diagnose an issue, leave it out.
 
hairygrandpa said:
Before using gear and working out, I was diagnosed with pronounced left ventricular hypertrophy. 2 years later, after cycling roids for a year, it was gone. Heart were a bit thicker -but that was to expect to see in a weight lifter, said the doc.
So, not in all cases are roids bad for your heart, I guess.
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Well, common sense says that it is dependent on the type of drug used, its dose and duration of use.

Btw i have been looking into Arjuna, it seems to be able to decrease left ventricular mass and increase ejection fraction. Might be worth checking out.
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alright fellas here i am all hooked up to a machine.
will let you know if they find anything, ecg was fine.
however, i have elevated temperature, 37.3C
overactive thyroid? i am not sick
 
So i wore a holter for 3 hours and they said there was no abnormal activity. Coagulation (hematocrit, hemoglobin) is great, hct was actually never s low as it is right now (my at-home phlebotomies lol, that is maybe why i feel out of breath, hemoglobin is lower than ever).
Crp, troponin, liver enzymes, kidney function fine.
Oh and vlood pressure is good. 110-125 / 60-75 (it was measured every 15 min while i was hooked up).
Ultrasound and possibly ergometry tomorrow.

They think i am hyperthyroid, because of the increased temperature (leukocytes are normal).

But it is a wake up call guys. These things are dangerous, they are not fart powders. Do not abuse. I am guilty of abuse for like 3 weeks (went up to 600 test 300 mast, dropped to 200 mast and then after 3 weeks dropped the doses all the way down to 600 combined as i couldnt take the anxiety anymore). I will never do that again.
 
CroLifter said:
But it is a wake up call guys. These things are dangerous, they are not fart powders. Do not abuse. I am guilty of abuse for like 3 weeks (went up to 600 test 300 mast, dropped to 200 mast and then after 3 weeks dropped the doses all the way down to 600 combined as i couldnt take the anxiety anymore). I will never do that again.
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Cro. I am a total hypochondriac and it’s scary thinking I could die any minute. But it’s not rational. The idea that 900mg combined aas caused you cardiac problems in less than a month, is not rational either.
We can count on 2 hands the amount of pro bodybuilders that have died since the 90s and they are taking these things year round at much higher doses than we are, plus they are doing something far more dangerous to the heart, growth.
These things are dangerous but not when you or I bump our dose up a little on a responsible cycle that thousands of healthy guys are currently running also.They are damaging decades down the road at huge doses most of us don’t come close to.
I hope everything checks out and you stay healthy.
 
CroLifter said:
So i wore a holter for 3 hours and they said there was no abnormal activity. Coagulation (hematocrit, hemoglobin) is great, hct was actually never s low as it is right now (my at-home phlebotomies lol, that is maybe why i feel out of breath, hemoglobin is lower than ever).
Crp, troponin, liver enzymes, kidney function fine.
Oh and vlood pressure is good. 110-125 / 60-75 (it was measured every 15 min while i was hooked up).
Ultrasound and possibly ergometry tomorrow.

They think i am hyperthyroid, because of the increased temperature (leukocytes are normal).

But it is a wake up call guys. These things are dangerous, they are not fart powders. Do not abuse. I am guilty of abuse for like 3 weeks (went up to 600 test 300 mast, dropped to 200 mast and then after 3 weeks dropped the doses all the way down to 600 combined as i couldnt take the anxiety anymore). I will never do that again.
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I’m happy for you that everything is all right man. As I was thinking the mental is very strong and anxious people can make their head/body believe a lot of stuff. I remember 3-4 months ago I started thinking about hematocrit more and more and it got to a point my breathing was hard, felt so anxious and bad I was like my hematocrit is high I can barely breath normally. I got it tested and everything was in range and every "sides" stopped Immediately. Also I wouldn’t say you are guilty of abuse for doing 600mg of test/mast combined that’s a fairly moderate/low dosage. I’m on 500mg test and 550mg npp atm and I wouldn’t even concider that even close to high dosage!
 
I believe that today's standards are skewed, a gram is not considered heavy, yet it is 10x the physiologic amount.

That being said, i never said that my problem was entirely caused by steroids. I said that i believe than an already existing problem has been exacerbated throught the direct effects of androgens on the heart and indirectly through increased strength and work capacity.

So far it seems the problem is in my head. But only after the ultrasound, ergometry and 24 hour holter can i be certain.

And of course, there is no denying that i am suffering from paranoia and hypochondria.
But the hypochondria definitely got worse as i hopped on gear. This might actually be a good thing in the end, as it prevents me from abusing.
I am pretty sure if i didnt get any side effects that i would be blasting a gram, instead of around 300mg.

And i am also going to see what my thyroid is doing. My body temperature hovers wround 37.3-37.5C and i am not sick.
 
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CroLifter said:
I believe that today's standards are skewed, a gram is not considered heavy, yet it is 10x the physiologic amount.

That being said, i never said that my problem was entirely caused by steroids. I said that i believe than an already existing problem has been exacerbated throught the direct effects of androgens on the heart and indirectly through increased strength and work capacity.

So far it seems the problem is in my head. But only after the ultrasound, ergometry and 24 hour holter can i be certain.

And of course, there is no denying that i am suffering from paranoia and hypochondria.
But the hypochondria definitely got worse as i hopped on gear. This might actually be a good thing in the end, as it prevents me from abusing.
I am pretty sure if i didnt get any side effects that i would be blasting a gram, instead of around 300mg.
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It is absolutely a great thing. I’m a bit like you and if i wasn’t I’d probably be on 2-3 fucking grams a week like a dumbass lol
 
Mathb33 said:
I’m happy for you that everything is all right man. As I was thinking the mental is very strong and anxious people can make their head/body believe a lot of stuff. I remember 3-4 months ago I started thinking about hematocrit more and more and it got to a point my breathing was hard, felt so anxious and bad I was like my hematocrit is high I can barely breath normally. I got it tested and everything was in range and every "sides" stopped Immediately. Also I wouldn’t say you are guilty of abuse for doing 600mg of test/mast combined that’s a fairly moderate/low dosage. I’m on 500mg test and 550mg npp atm and I wouldn’t even concider that even close to high dosage!
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Another consideration is just how incredible the body’s protective abilities are. It is rare that we could do damage to our body and just drop dead without warning. You see this in oral aas threads. There’s a reason for never get liver enzymes tested mid-oral run. I’ll get them prior to starting another oral though. A lot of guys will speculate how long is too long and how much is too much etc etc and legitimately worry they will end up with cirrhosis if they run too much or go too long. The body is way better than that. It lets you know the minute you’ve pissed it off and gives you plenty of signs. You would absolutely feel like walking death long before you’ve cause irreversible damage to your liver. You physically wouldn’t be able to swallow or hold down the pills. And this is again long before real damage has occurred.
Same goes for kidneys. I worked in dialysis for 11 years, guess how many cases of kidney failure I’ve ever heard of or discovered from trenbolone or any aas? Zero
The heart is the one we need to be mindful of though. But this is after years and years of constant drug use. And again, there will be plenty of warning if you are doing real damage. Mainly in the form of labs since we all are getting regular cardiac labs right? It’s not going to come from a couple cycles though.
 
Mathb33 said:
It is absolutely a great thing. I’m a bit like you and if i wasn’t I’d probably be on 2-3 fucking grams a week like a dumbass lol
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Diminishing returns are real. I didnt get any extra gains when i was at 900mg for those few weeks.
From the studies we can see, even though it is a dose dependent response, that doses that put you in low supraphysiologic range are the most effective.
For example that 600mg test per week study.
300mg test built 70% the muscle mass that 600mg did. Yet 600 increased hemoglobin over 2x more than 300mg did.
So we can assume that the difference between 600mg and 1200mg is even smaller.

@Matthersby the heart is basically the only thing i am concerned about. Infertility, impotence, bloat, moonface, shrunken testicles, acne, puffy nipples...i can live with that.
Heart stuff downright scares me.
I am not really that anxious about kidneys and liver since i dont do any orals. I also do not drink, at all.
 
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Matthersby said:
Cro. I am a total hypochondriac and it’s scary thinking I could die any minute. But it’s not rational. The idea that 900mg combined aas caused you cardiac problems in less than a month, is not rational either.
We can count on 2 hands the amount of pro bodybuilders that have died since the 90s and they are taking these things year round at much higher doses than we are, plus they are doing something far more dangerous to the heart, growth.
These things are dangerous but not when you or I bump our dose up a little on a responsible cycle that thousands of healthy guys are currently running also.They are damaging decades down the road at huge doses most of us don’t come close to.
I hope everything checks out and you stay healthy.
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Yeah I’d echo this exactly. Most of the guys who have issues are also abusing recreational drugs as well as many decades of continuous aas useage.

It’s no bad thing that this keeps a check on what you use though.....
 
Whisky said:
Yeah I’d echo this exactly. Most of the guys who have issues are also abusing recreational drugs as well as many decades of continuous aas useage.

It’s no bad thing that this keeps a check on what you use though.....
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Yeah when i went in they immediately asked me about the stimulants. I dont take any and when i said that they were like awesome they are terrible for the heart. They never asked anything about steroids, even when they saw my acne covered body. It is such a fringe activity i suppose.

Also, lately i have been much more conscious of the way i train. I make sure i do not push with my blood, as @Old Witch says. Even if it costs me reps and weight, i wont hold my breath again during heavy sets.

I mean it is shocking when you look back to when you were younger and you realize you didnt care at all about all this health stuff.
 
CroLifter said:
Diminishing returns are real. I didnt get any extra gains when i was at 900mg for those few weeks.
From the studies we can see, even though it is a dose dependent response, that doses that put you in low supraphysiologic range are the most effective.
For example that 600mg test per week study.
300mg test built 70% the muscle mass that 600mg did. Yet 600 increased hemoglobin over 2x more than 300mg did.
So we can assume that the difference between 600mg and 1200mg is even smaller.

@Matthersby the heart is basically the only thing i am concerned about. Infertility, impotence, bloat, moonface, shrunken testicles, acne, puffy nipples...i can live with that.
Heart stuff downright scares me.
I am not really that anxious about kidneys and liver since i dont do any orals. I also do not drink, at all.
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I worry about it every day. And then I go get labs and my doc tells me I’m zero risk for cardiac problems. But then I increase my dose and a month later I’m right back to eating an aspirin every 4 hours worrying I’m gonna drop dead from a blood clot
 
Matthersby said:
I worry about it every day. And then I go get labs and my doc tells me I’m zero risk for cardiac problems. But then I increase my dose and a month later I’m right back to eating an aspirin every 4 hours worrying I’m gonna drop dead from a blood clot
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Yeah, that is something i have been talking about with my friends lately. It seems that any exciting and thrilling activity carries a certain degree of danger. There is no way around it.

The only thing a man can do is...well maybe not to smile back but to try minimizing the risks as best as he can.
 
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Lvef is 54%. Doc said it is normal for an athlete (said i have a heart of an endurance athlete, which paces itself at rest), but i do think it is lower than ideal.
He asked me about anabolics, i chickened out and told him i used last year (which i didnt, should have told him i use now) and he just frowned.
Said he treatd bb'ers on supraphysiological testosterone and said that on average their heart is "20 years older" than they actually are.
I guess all the fibrosis testosterone causes.
 
Not to downplay what your going through, but to me it sounds like it could just be anxiety
 
CroLifter said:
Lvef is 54%. Doc said it is normal for an athlete (said i have a heart of an endurance athlete, which paces itself at rest), but i do think it is lower than ideal.
He asked me about anabolics, i chickened out and told him i used last year (which i didnt, should have told him i use now) and he just frowned.
Said he treatd bb'ers on supraphysiological testosterone and said that on average their heart is "20 years older" than they actually are.
I guess all the fibrosis testosterone causes.
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Interesting feedback for sure. Being at the low end of normal isn't bad, but I understand your concern. Your ef can improve with cardio. I've heard of guys turning it around from terrible to great with tons of cardio. Glad to hear you're okay brother.
 
steve0178 said:
Interesting feedback for sure. Being at the low end of normal isn't bad, but I understand your concern. Your ef can improve with cardio. I've heard of guys turning it around from terrible to great with tons of cardio. Glad to hear you're okay brother.
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guys on aas?
 
i just want to say that i strongly suspect my ferritin is low and that it is the reason i have been feeling general malaise. Will check it out tomorrow and let you guys know.
 
What dose low ferritin do? My last bloodwork came back with high ferritin. Btw my cardiologist knows I'm on trt and was using before I was prescribed by my endo. She actually told me out of all her patients over the years she has never had a case where aas was the underlying issue. And my insurance is with one of the top 3 medical groups in california and affiliated with Stanford medical so i know shes had a very large pull of patients.
 
Those who have been reading my posts for some time now know that i went crazy with at home phlebotomies. People telling me i look sick and stuff.
Tomorrow's bloodwork will tell me more.
 
manifesto said:
Not to downplay what your going through, but to me it sounds like it could just be anxiety
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I couldnt say wether it is or isn't but it is surprising how general stress and specific anxieties can manifest in dramatic all of a sudden ways. Ive had a similar issue to the op's though not as bad and it turned out stress i thought i was handling just fine
 
mixedup said:
What dose low ferritin do? My last bloodwork came back with high ferritin. Btw my cardiologist knows I'm on trt and was using before I was prescribed by my endo. She actually told me out of all her patients over the years she has never had a case where aas was the underlying issue. And my insurance is with one of the top 3 medical groups in california and affiliated with Stanford medical so i know shes had a very large pull of patients.
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Interesting. Opinions differ massively. My doc today was like "steroids are one of the worst thingyou can take for your heart, people on steroids have hearts that look 20 years older than they actually are".
 
This is why i am not happy with 54%. This is a case of a man who had Anabolic steroid induced cardiomyopathy. He used massive doses (like 2 grams per week).
look at the table
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You can see that upon stopping his lvef continued to improve way past 54%, where i am sitting right now. And this guy was a powerflifter, so his heart was definitely an athlete's heart.
It is clear that my fraction is lowered through steroid use.
you can see how fast heart actually recovers after the steroids are withdrawn.
So saying that they are not very detrimental is crazy. I remember reading where a guy said he decided to track his lvef during a long blast (like 6 motnhs to a year) and that he was shocked to find thst it dropped by 8%.

That is why time off is of extreme importance (see how fast heart recovers, that is what we need during our downtime). Lol @ blast and cruise being healthier, just lol. It is an excuse to never come off, to be fair.

Dont get me wrong, i have used (and i still cruise). And will probably use one more time, next year before summer lol. But lets keep this real.

I would really like to hear from all of you what your LVEF is? If you know it.
 
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CroLifter said:
This is why i am not happy with 54%. This is a case of a man who had Anabolic steroid induced cardiomyopathy. He used massive doses (like 2 grams per week).
look at the table
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You can see that upon stopping his lvef continued to improve way past 54%, where i am sitting right now. And this guy was a powerflifter, so his heart was definitely an athlete's heart.
It is clear that my fraction is lowered through steroid use.
you can see how fast heart actually recovers after the steroids are withdrawn.
So saying that they are not very detrimental is crazy. I remember reading where a guy said he decided to track his lvef during a long blast (like 6 motnhs to a year) and that he was shocked to find thst it dropped by 8%.

That is why time off is of extreme importance (see how fast heart recovers, that is what we need during our downtime). Lol @ blast and cruise being healthier, just lol. It is an excuse to never come off, to be fair.

Dont get me wrong, i have used (and i still cruise). And will probably use one more time, next year before summer lol. But lets keep this real.

I would really like to hear from all of you what your LVEF is? If you know it.
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Well for blast and cruise I would have t say many people dont actually cruise that's why they are on all the time I see people saying I cruise at 250.g or 300 mg a week that is not a real cruise a cruise would be just to stay at normal levels and should be like 100 just enough to.stay in normal.ranges.
 
mixedup said:
Well for blast and cruise I would have t say many people dont actually cruise that's why they are on all the time I see people saying I cruise at 250.g or 300 mg a week that is not a real cruise a cruise would be just to stay at normal levels and should be like 100 just enough to.stay in normal.ranges.
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Exactly. Just an excuse to never come off.
 
CroLifter said:
This is why i am not happy with 54%. This is a case of a man who had Anabolic steroid induced cardiomyopathy. He used massive doses (like 2 grams per week).
look at the table
Invalid Link Removed
You can see that upon stopping his lvef continued to improve way past 54%, where i am sitting right now. And this guy was a powerflifter, so his heart was definitely an athlete's heart.
It is clear that my fraction is lowered through steroid use.
you can see how fast heart actually recovers after the steroids are withdrawn.
So saying that they are not very detrimental is crazy. I remember reading where a guy said he decided to track his lvef during a long blast (like 6 motnhs to a year) and that he was shocked to find thst it dropped by 8%.

That is why time off is of extreme importance (see how fast heart recovers, that is what we need during our downtime). Lol @ blast and cruise being healthier, just lol. It is an excuse to never come off, to be fair.

Dont get me wrong, i have used (and i still cruise). And will probably use one more time, next year before summer lol. But lets keep this real.

I would really like to hear from all of you what your LVEF is? If you know it.
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I had an echo done in May and my LVEF was 62% while on 50mg anavar and 250mg test
 
I decided to come off...
no point in running tren ace for 3 weeks, my shipment is late

I think i am going to check the lvef again like 6 months after i have been off gear and see if it improves. If it has been lowered through gear use, it should start climbing up in a matter of months.

@jtmartin18 i ran close to a gram of test and mast at one point, both fairly androgenic compounds. It probably have played a role.
 
Well...
Off to training naturally for a while...
I really hope i dont end up looking like sh1t. I am so happy with round delts lol.
I know that , alongside strong pct, keeping the weight on the bar and keeping the protein intake up is mandatory.
 
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