Caffeine and Forskolin

[HIT4ME]

I've been under the impression that caffeine and forskolin is a good mixture, but I've been researching theobromine/cocoa and came across this abstract:

Caffeine inhibits forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP accumulation in rat brain. - PubMed - NCBI

Unfortunately, I can't get the full text, but it looks like caffeine may reduce/block the effects of forskolin? Am I misunderstanding this? If so, does this mean that the way most of us probably take foskolin on a cut is a mistake? i.e. - taking it with other fat burners at the same time, often containing caffeine?

There has to be more that I'm missing here....

 

[Chefdeez]

I'm probably in the minority here but I've never noticed any difference between cutting with forskolin and cutting without. Tried is so many times and wonder why every time. Alphamine by itself worked just as well as 100mg forskolin added to it.

 

[Misfit28]

My first thought is that cAMP in the brain is different from cAMP in cells.

I always thought caffeine complemented Forskolin as well.

 

[HIT4ME]

Well, I came across this because I was researching PDE inhibitors, thinking taking cocoa (a potential PDE inhibitor) with Forskolin would help keep the cAMP from breaking down and make the effects of forskolin work longer. As I understand it, caffeine works on the other end with forskolin, by playing a role in the cascade that creates cAMP. The thought being that caffeine, forskolin, and a pde inhibitor would be pretty effective - even if the effect is a mild one.

Chefdeez - your reaction is not all that crazy. I love forskolin, but also feel that its effects are normally very mild and easy to miss. I've taken much larger doses than most people here and 200 mg/day or more doesn't scare me at all. I've had times where it seemed to make me lose weight like crazy, but 8 out of 10 times, it's much much more mild, and 2 of those 8 times I probably don't feel like it is doing anything. Maybe the mild effects have to do with my mixing it with caffeine? I don't know.

And yes - it's possible that cAMP is different in the brain than in the cells - and maybe there is an implication here that I'm not seeing because I know so little about this stuff. Maybe there is a BBB angle that I'm not considering...

 

[ma70]

Not that I have too much to say about this specific subject, I've always used Forskolin for LBM preservation during a cut, as opposed to actual fat loss effects.

 

[HIT4ME]

LMAO - I should have re-read Coop's corner a little more carefully. I was in the mindset of reading only the stuff that said caffeine works with forskolin and didn't realize the 3rd or 4th post in his thread is another member mentioning this study.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/241414-coops-corner-1-a.html

 

[Adizzle1]

Well, I came across this because I was researching PDE inhibitors, thinking taking cocoa (a potential PDE inhibitor) with Forskolin would help keep the cAMP from breaking down and make the effects of forskolin work longer. As I understand it, caffeine works on the other end with forskolin, by playing a role in the cascade that creates cAMP. The thought being that caffeine, forskolin, and a pde inhibitor would be pretty effective - even if the effect is a mild one.
.

Part of the reason Amentoflavone is included in OxyMax

 

[touchless21]

So caffeine and forskolin are ok together, is that your final answer?

 

[kbayne]

So caffeine and forskolin are ok together, is that your final answer?

Correct.

 

[LeanEngineer]

So caffeine and forskolin are ok together, is that your final answer?

Yep you're fine. Go ahead and use them both. Great combo in my opinion.

 

[carmaf]

I'm probably in the minority here but I've never noticed any difference between cutting with forskolin and cutting without. Tried is so many times and wonder why every time. Alphamine by itself worked just as well as 100mg forskolin added to it.

Yeah same here. Only thing I've noticed from Forskolin is a lack of solid ****s, that's all. Has a lot of positive feedback so it could just be an individual thing.

Amento is pure bunk as well IMO. I know my fav company uses both, but those 2 ingredients have done nothing for me. I will try Forskolin solo one time to see what the real deal with it is though, because I've only ever taken it in Shift/ABE and also with a lot of other products/factors in the mix.

 

[Driven2lift]

I don't know what the above commenters are using as a scale of "mild" results,
But keep in mind supplemental benefits should almost always be expected to be quite mild.

The amount of effect seen in study with forskolin is all I needed to hop on, and I never regretted it.
Certainly not when stacked onto EC (which as Coop covered before is highly synergistic for fat loss)

But as with everything, no two people will respond the same

 

[carmaf]

I don't know what the above commenters are using as a scale of "mild" results,
But keep in mind supplemental benefits should almost always be expected to be quite mild.

The amount of effect seen in study with forskolin is all I needed to hop on, and I never regretted it.
Certainly not when stacked onto EC (which as Coop covered before is highly synergistic for fat loss)

But as with everything, no two people will respond the same

This is a fair response. I think with the hype I see about Forskolin, I expected a lot more. I won't ever buy Amento, but I have written down to try some Essentials Forskolin solo with nothing else, and maybe Shift again one day, to give them both a fair shake.

It's hard to see what Forskolin is doing atm bc I'm taking it right after 4 months ECA, and stacked with things like EP and Alphamine. The last 2, now that I'm leaner, I can see the results of 100X more than when I was chubbier 6-8 months ago, which definitely changed my opinion on both products so the same can maybe happen with Forskolin. ECA, EP and Alphamine should have a lot more pronounced effects by comparison though.

Alphamine in particular, I didn't notice it do much for me before outside of great energy and great taste, but now that I'm nearing 10% BF, I see a week-by-week difference taking it completely fasted(min 18 hrs a day) doing IF, so the burner element is now starting to really shine. Stopped congesting me as much also.

So I'm not completely writing Forskolin off, but so far the loose stool is the only noticeable effect I can honestly say it has given me.

 

[AKM007]

Not that I have too much to say about this specific subject, I've always used Forskolin for LBM preservation during a cut, as opposed to actual fat loss effects.

I second this. I used forskolin for little over 6 months and I feel it has helped preserve muscle during a 1000 cal cut. Of course I had more than enough fat to shed so perhaps muscle loss would have been minimal anyways....

HIT4ME, what is your proposed dosing protocol for forskolin/caffeine/cocoa combo?

 

[carmaf]

That's a pretty interesting use for Forskolin that I've never actually considered......

 

[HIT4ME]

Thanks for all the interesting discussion guys. I wonder what the effects are and if there are any studies showing the effects of caffeine/cAMP in other tissues - if caffeine does somehow negatively impact the effects of forskolin, it may make some sense to dose separately throughout the day. Because of what I'm reading about some other chemical processes, such as OEA, I'm thinking cause and effect isn't always as straight forward as we would think with this stuff. For instance, OEA appears to modulate satiety, and makes us feel full when we eat. However, eating high-fat foods appears to down-regulate the production of OEA, which is the opposite of what you would logically expect. Obviously is something tells us when we're full, you wouldn't think that being full would cause us to create less of that ingredient...

I'm not saying caffeine and forskolin are NOT OK together, but I'm wondering if there may be some question as to whether or not there is some form of down regulation and maybe another factor that should be considered to see the full effects...

I second this. I used forskolin for little over 6 months and I feel it has helped preserve muscle during a 1000 cal cut. Of course I had more than enough fat to shed so perhaps muscle loss would have been minimal anyways....

HIT4ME, what is your proposed dosing protocol for forskolin/caffeine/cocoa combo?

I don't have a specific dosing protocol I guess - just the normal dose I'd use for each - 15 g. cocoa twice a day with 50 mg forskolin twice a day, with 200 mg caffeine twice a day. I've gone to 200 mg before, but most people on there would say the returns on 200 mg vs. 100 mg. are negligible and I'm not sure they are right or wrong....part of me says 200 mg was great, part of me says it probably wasn't that much better than 100 mg to justify the cost.

 

[HIT4ME]

I don't know what the above commenters are using as a scale of "mild" results,
But keep in mind supplemental benefits should almost always be expected to be quite mild.

The amount of effect seen in study with forskolin is all I needed to hop on, and I never regretted it.
Certainly not when stacked onto EC (which as Coop covered before is highly synergistic for fat loss)

But as with everything, no two people will respond the same

I'm not gonna hammer you too much on this because you are a straight forward guy and the two companies in your signature are definitely more straight up than most supplement companies and I respect all of that and I am not attacking you in any way at all - but we all know that supplement companies make promises way beyond "mild" results.

And mild, here, is along the lines of what others have said - it can be hard to tell the difference between forskolin and diet vs. diet alone. Very hard. To your point, diet is easily 90% of the equation, so if you're losing 2 pounds a week and the forskolin is 10% of that (which is probably an over estimate), then you're talking 0.2 pounds vs. 1.8 pounds and...that is hard to tell to begin with.

I will say I've had some times when I could barely tell at all, and other times where I took forskolin and was surprised with how easily the weight came off...but there are so many factors, it's hard to pin it down to one thing, as much as I like to think I know what I'm doing.

 

[bolt10]

Ya it can be hard to tell at times, I mean everyone has their lives to live so it's not like every time you take something it's in a controlled setting like a study. There is some solid literature on the use of Forskolin though, so while it may not work amazing for everyone, it is one ingredient with some backing for fat loss and body fat gain mitigation.

Anecdotally it's one of the most used ingredients for myself. I definitely have benefitted from it and will continue to use it.

Interesting discussion points so far tho, glad to see you taking an active approach to understanding the mechanisms of action for things and asking questions. ?

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

Ya it can be hard to tell at times, I mean everyone has their lives to live so it's not like every time you take something it's in a controlled setting like a study. There is some solid literature on the use of Forskolin though, so while it may not work amazing for everyone, it is one ingredient with some backing for fat loss and body fat gain mitigation.

Anecdotally it's one of the most used ingredients for myself. I definitely have benefitted from it and will continue to use it.

Interesting discussion points so far tho, glad to see you taking an active approach to understanding the mechanisms of action for things and asking questions. ��

even in a study it's a little hard because you don't know if it's from a new routine(which sometimes happen when you get assigned a standardized regime) or from actually having to track food, or other things like that. It does help isolate things, but not fully IMO

 

[Driven2lift]

As an FYI, not even ECA dosed 3x a day raises thermogenesis and calorie burn by 10%

So... I still see some expectations being too high for supplements. I can link my AM article discussing the effectiveness of fat loss aids again if needed.

I dont expect my burners to burn my fat, honestly, I could never accurately track that.
I can see the effects on my hunger, energy, mood,
Which is all I want/need and absolutely worth it for me.

With Forskolin you are dealing with mainly the cAMP effects which a big part of that is muscle mass preservation (or even growth) while dieting.
I have dieted down low enough, enough times, with and without supplements,
To know that I get to a better end-point in terms of muscle mass while I am including HICA and F95.

^This again is not huge, immediately apparent results. But anecdotally for me I won't cut without it.
Absolutely not while using EC, which stacks so well with F95.

 

[AKM007]

I wonder how other PDE 3/4 inhibitors stack with forskolin...like Artichoke extract etc and whether it would make a statistical difference...BTW thanks HIT4ME I learnt something new today...

 

[HIT4ME]

As an FYI, not even ECA dosed 3x a day raises thermogenesis and calorie burn by 10%

So... I still see some expectations being too high for supplements. I can link my AM article discussing the effectiveness of fat loss aids again if needed.

I dont expect my burners to burn my fat, honestly, I could never accurately track that.
I can see the effects on my hunger, energy, mood,
Which is all I want/need and absolutely worth it for me.

With Forskolin you are dealing with mainly the cAMP effects which a big part of that is muscle mass preservation (or even growth) while dieting.
I have dieted down low enough, enough times, with and without supplements,
To know that I get to a better end-point in terms of muscle mass while I am including HICA and F95.

^This again is not huge, immediately apparent results. But anecdotally for me I won't cut without it.
Absolutely not while using EC, which stacks so well with F95.

Nothing that anyone can disagree with here - and I wasn't really disagreeing before. Just pointing out that if you weren't you and some rep from Muscletech came in and said this, I'd have to blast him. Your view is 100% reasonable and realistic, IMO, and I agree. Supplement companies, in general though tend to over-hype, and people taking supplements tend to expect too much, and you are in between and so am I.

I wasn't saying that forskolin will increase your metabolism by 10% - but it may make up 10% of your results. i.e. - if you're in a 900 calorie/day deficit and your supplements help you lose another 100 calories/day worth of fat, then 10% of the 1000 calorie deficit comes from supplements - but for a person with a 2,000 calorie BMR, this is a 5% increase in metabolism - and this is optimistic and maybe what I would expect from ephedrine. Clen and T3 maybe I'd expect closer to a 10% increase in BMR.

 

[HIT4ME]

I wonder how other PDE 3/4 inhibitors stack with forskolin...like Artichoke extract etc and whether it would make a statistical difference...BTW thanks HIT4ME I learnt something new today...

I am glad if it helped at all - I am just learning myself. I am FAR from any kind of expert here, as I'm just reading what I come across - but it seems that most PDE inhibitors have spill over from one sub-receptor (if this is the proper term) to the next. For instance, a PDE 5 inhibitor will also inhibit PDE 7 and others to some degree. They may be somewhat targeted, but not usually. I would think that there is a good possibility for any PDE inhibitor to have at least some impact on forskolin, since PDE is needed to break down cAMP. As others have said above, this effect may be academic in a real-world setting, since the overall effect on fat loss may not be all that great and I'm not sure there are any natural inhibitors that would be overly strong.

 

[Adizzle1]

Fat Loss​

Amentoflavone is a mixed Phosphodiesterase (PDE) inhibitor [2-7]. Many of you are familiar with forskolin, which derives its utility in fat loss from its ability to increase cAMP levels in appropriate tissues, specifically adipose (fat) tissue. And many of you are familiar with, say, ephedrine, which acts as a b2 agonist to ultimately increase levels of intracellular cAMP. The final common pathway with both forskolin and ephedrine is the increase in cAMP in fat cells, which results in the subsequent activity of various kinases and transcription factors in inducing cascades that promote lipolysis, or the breakdown of stored fat. As mentioned above, amentoflavone inhibits PDE, and PDE is responsible for the breakdown of cAMP. So by blocking PDE with amentoflavone, we increase cAMP and thus increase fat loss as well. Here’s a simplified model:

A “(-)” denotes the inhibition of an enzyme/pathway, while a “(+)” denotes stimulation of an enzyme or pathway. As you can see, amentoflavone acts downstream of both ephedrine and forskolin to block the PDE enzyme. In simple terms, you get a “double negative” at cAMP levels, resulting in a positive (net) increase. This results in stimulation of the next step: “fat loss.”

Interestingly enough, each compound listed above (ephedrine, yohimbine, forskolin, amentoflavone) acts on a different step of the fat loss pathway, and in theory, these could all be combined for a synergistic effect. I am not suggesting this, but it’s an interesting take home point.

While obviously ephedrine cannot be used in Dietary Supplements, Higenamine can be, which is why OxyMax contains Higenamine, Alpha-Yo, Forskolin and Amentoflavone.

 

[Driven2lift]

I just make it my mission to not exaggerate or "over hype" so I was being sure it was known that I am quite forward when discussing the limitations of supplement effectiveness.

But I am also a believer in the potential of biochemical impact from naturally sourced extracts, and it fascinates me to the point that I research it more than my own field (chemical eng.) because it crosses over with my other love of fitness, and lifting.

I have never promoted a PEScience or Athletix product without having a firm basis for what I was saying, and always state when my feedback is anecdotal.

I think a lot of company reps should take note of the above honestly because as you said, I too hate when big claims are made when the foundation needed to prove them is not there.
That is simply lying, bold-faced to your customers,
And its often printed right on the front of bottles (false, exaggerated, or unproven claims)

I love and hate the industry lol.

 

[ma70]

I wish most reps were like D2L to be honest. When I first started getting into the supplement game I was a complete moron and I bought into every bit of hype, and most of the time I think the supplements mostly motivated me to work harder. That's about it.

 

[Driven2lift]

I wish most reps were like D2L to be honest. When I first started getting into the supplement game I was a complete moron and I bought into every bit of hype, and most of the time I think the supplements mostly motivated me to work harder. That's about it.

Placebo is so effective that sometimes, to the uninformed, those big label claims actually can work lol

I was similar when I very first started

 

[HIT4ME]

I wish most reps were like D2L to be honest. When I first started getting into the supplement game I was a complete moron and I bought into every bit of hype, and most of the time I think the supplements mostly motivated me to work harder. That's about it.

I agree...D2L is straight. And I appreciate that. I wanted to be sure to separate him from that crowd, sorry if it didn't come through that way.

 

[HIT4ME]

Placebo is so effective that sometimes, to the uninformed, those big label claims actually can work lol

I was similar when I very first started

When you first started? I've been using supements for 20 years and I still fall for ****. I am like Fox Mulder. I WANT TO BELIEVE!

 

[ma70]

When you first started? I've been using supements for 20 years and I still fall for ****. I am like Fox Mulder. I WANT TO BELIEVE!

It happens to all of us. Gotta say though, I adopted a much different mindset after being on here for awhile and then realizing how much money I used to blow on "stacks" when my diet/training were sub par. I'm pretty dead set on being cost effective with supplements and really trying to prove their worth these days....as I'm currently running an ecdysterone/laxogenin supplement, for example.

 

[ma70]

Placebo is so effective that sometimes, to the uninformed, those big label claims actually can work lol

I was similar when I very first started

Yeah, I remember MuscleTech Hydroxycut motivated me to do more cardio and clean up my diet (not that it's terrible or whatever). What a surprise, right? Haha.

 

[Driven2lift]

Yeah, I remember MuscleTech Hydroxycut motivated me to do more cardio and clean up my diet (not that it's terrible or whatever). What a surprise, right? Haha.

The amount it was hyped that Versa 1 helped you focus in the gym made me simply pay more attention to my contractions out of the expectation,

I thought it was great, my first ever stack years back, but have never emulated the results since.

Hope its cool I say that, lol...

 

[Jiigzz]

There are many ingredients that, even with some human evidence to suggest efficacy, are over hyped beyond belief.

Take the whey and casein studies for example, people explicity state overall protein intake to play a key role yet will say a whey + casein blend produces optimal results - well, which is it? Total protein or a blend? I'm not against it by any means, but it happens all the time.

That's just an example from a discussion I was having yesterday, but many other examples come to mind as well. Moreover, noone is above the placebo effect, even if you purposely use a supplement to notice nothing. No matter how much data you read, you can also become susceptible to placebo.

In saying all of that, supplements can play more than 5% of results people say it does. 5% is arbitrary - a number pulled out of thin air to measure an unknown statistic. For some, a pre workout may be the difference between going to the gym or not going, an anabolic that does absolutely nothing may keep a person focused on a goal or provide direction, a sleep aid may help someone focus more on recovery than they ever had before, etc. Obviously its better to have a product that will at least do something, but for some people just having that focus is enough.

Just some thoughts ive had haha

Oh and merry Christmas AMers.

 

[AKM007]

I have to agree with all the posters...honestly I take supplements more for motivation than for actual effects and any effect it actually has is bonus. Still there have been pleasant surprises along the way...like when sleep is better than usual (with Ashwagandha) or recovery is much better (with Ergonine)....in the end it's all about the results.

On that note Evomuse Defuse better not fail me now...I just had the mother of all cheats in the form of a huge Christmas lunch...Merry Christmas all!

 

[HIT4ME]

There are many ingredients that, even with some human evidence to suggest efficacy, are over hyped beyond belief.

Take the whey and casein studies for example, people explicity state overall protein intake to play a key role yet will say a whey + casein blend produces optimal results - well, which is it? Total protein or a blend? I'm not against it by any means, but it happens all the time.

That's just an example from a discussion I was having yesterday, but many other examples come to mind as well. Moreover, noone is above the placebo effect, even if you purposely use a supplement to notice nothing. No matter how much data you read, you can also become susceptible to placebo.

In saying all of that, supplements can play more than 5% of results people say it does. 5% is arbitrary - a number pulled out of thin air to measure an unknown statistic. For some, a pre workout may be the difference between going to the gym or not going, an anabolic that does absolutely nothing may keep a person focused on a goal or provide direction, a sleep aid may help someone focus more on recovery than they ever had before, etc. Obviously its better to have a product that will at least do something, but for some people just having that focus is enough.

Just some thoughts ive had haha

Oh and merry Christmas AMers.

I can't rep you for this until I spread the love around to others...but this is very well said.

In terms of the fat burner - as we were saying, ECA may increase metabolism 5%, which doesn't seem like much, but if it kills your appetite and heps you stick to your 500 calorie deficit - then the 100 calories burned through the increased metabolism is a small part of the story.

This reminds me of the high reps for hypertrophy, low reps for strength debate. Everyone thinks the difference between the two is huge but it is more like tipping a scale slightly in one direction or the other. I think a lot of stuff is like this when it comes to working out/nutrition. We focus on the details and miss the general direction of things. The tail wags the dog.

 

[uubiduu]

Yeah same here. Only thing I've noticed from Forskolin is a lack of solid ****s, that's all. Has a lot of positive feedback so it could just be an individual thing.

Amento is pure bunk as well IMO. I know my fav company uses both, but those 2 ingredients have done nothing for me. I will try Forskolin solo one time to see what the real deal with it is though, because I've only ever taken it in Shift/ABE and also with a lot of other products/factors in the mix.

Same experience als you: They both did anything. Forskolin gave me only sides

 

[bighulksmash]

Forskolin stinging nettle and Tribulus was a good combo for me .

 

[TrainerTone]

I ran F95 solo and had some pretty good results. Did mess with my stomach somewhat but nothing too major

 

[carmaf]

I have never promoted a PEScience or Athletix product without having a firm basis for what I was saying, and always state when my feedback is anecdotal.

I think a lot of company reps should take note of the above honestly because as you said, I too hate when big claims are made when the foundation needed to prove them is not there.
That is simply lying, bold-faced to your customers,
And its often printed right on the front of bottles (false, exaggerated, or unproven claims)

I love and hate the industry lol.

That is a big reason why I'm a fan of PES. I wrote the supp industry off for years because 5-10 years ago, it was all just nonsense, hype and garbage products, with tons of outrageous claims. PES was the first company I saw when I started taking supplements again that didn't mislead with their marketing, had a small core line of streamlined/stackable products and also didn't make outrageous claims about their products and what they can do. They have delivered for me and I'll support them until they stop doing so, or sell-out and fall into the hype game.

I wish most reps were like D2L to be honest. When I first started getting into the supplement game I was a complete moron and I bought into every bit of hype, and most of the time I think the supplements mostly motivated me to work harder. That's about it.

Placebo is so effective that sometimes, to the uninformed, those big label claims actually can work lol

I was similar when I very first started

I think all educated supplement users were at some point fooled by the big dogs and their BS. I think most of the educated users on AM started doing research into supps just so they could not get fooled again. The ones who buy the mass produced garbage are the ones who don't know/don't care they are being fooled.

The amount it was hyped that Versa 1 helped you focus in the gym made me simply pay more attention to my contractions out of the expectation,

I thought it was great, my first ever stack years back, but have never emulated the results since.

Hope its cool I say that, lol...

Nothing will beat a first experience. My first ever pre (C4), was magical. Nothing will ever compare to taking my first scoop and feeling like I could lift a house.

There are many ingredients that, even with some human evidence to suggest efficacy, are over hyped beyond belief.

Take the whey and casein studies for example, people explicity state overall protein intake to play a key role yet will say a whey + casein blend produces optimal results - well, which is it? Total protein or a blend? I'm not against it by any means, but it happens all the time.

That's just an example from a discussion I was having yesterday, but many other examples come to mind as well. Moreover, noone is above the placebo effect, even if you purposely use a supplement to notice nothing. No matter how much data you read, you can also become susceptible to placebo.

In saying all of that, supplements can play more than 5% of results people say it does. 5% is arbitrary - a number pulled out of thin air to measure an unknown statistic. For some, a pre workout may be the difference between going to the gym or not going, an anabolic that does absolutely nothing may keep a person focused on a goal or provide direction, a sleep aid may help someone focus more on recovery than they ever had before, etc. Obviously its better to have a product that will at least do something, but for some people just having that focus is enough.

Just some thoughts ive had haha

Oh and merry Christmas AMers.

This is exactly why I started taking supplements again. They just made the other stuff (diet & exercise) a bit more fun. They allowed me to spice things up, and stay focused on my goals, bc I used the supp purchases as motivation to make sure I exercised so I wasn't wasting my money. That alone made the money I spent on them worth it.

Now that diet & exercise are firmly entrenched into my life, I use supplementation as a way to experiment and see if I can get a little more out of the first two. Food and training will always be my #1 priority, but with some spare cash, I don't mind testing things out to see if they potentially can add even just a small amount of results, because lord knows in the past I've blown money on far worse things.

People sometimes get stingy when it comes to these things, but how much would you pay for better health and to be in better shape? I don't like to put a price on that so long as I have the money to spend while still increasing my savings every month.

 

[AKM007]

This is exactly why I started taking supplements again. They just made the other stuff (diet & exercise) a bit more fun. They allowed me to spice things up, and stay focused on my goals, bc I used the supp purchases as motivation to make sure I exercised so I wasn't wasting my money. That alone made the money I spent on them worth it.

Now that diet & exercise are firmly entrenched into my life, I use supplementation as a way to experiment and see if I can get a little more out of the first two. Food and training will always be my #1 priority, but with some spare cash, I don't mind testing things out to see if they potentially can add even just a small amount of results, because lord knows in the past I've blown money on far worse things.

People sometimes get stingy when it comes to these things, but how much would you pay for better health and to be in better shape? I don't like to put a price on that so long as I have the money to spend while still increasing my savings every month.

Well said. I am at the beginning stages of working out and the supplements motivate to go workout, stick to my goals etc. I just hope I continue down this path till your second Para becomes my reality.

 

[carmaf]

Well said. I am at the beginning stages of working out and the supplements motivate to go workout, stick to my goals etc. I just hope I continue down this path till your second Para becomes my reality.

I will be done 2 years of hard recomp this summer, with 1 year of that abstaining from all junk period. It takes time. Just stay on track, remember to always be trying to clean up your diet more and more(slowly though, don't rush it and fall off the wagon), and trying to train harder before worrying about supps, don't let small setbacks make you give up, and you will reach any goal. All you is need hard work, patience and consistency.

 

[ma70]

I will be done 2 years of hard recomp this summer, with 1 year of that abstaining from all junk period. It takes time. Just stay on track, remember to always be trying to clean up your diet more and more(slowly though, don't rush it and fall off the wagon), and trying to train harder before worrying about supps, don't let small setbacks make you give up, and you will reach any goal. All you is need hard work, patience and consistency.

Cleaning up my diet and really changing my training has made the biggest difference, way more than when I stacked supps like crazy.

 

[carmaf]

Cleaning up my diet and really changing my training has made the biggest difference, way more than when I stacked supps like crazy.

This HAS to be the foundation. Supps are luxuries 100%. Only real essentials for me IMO are Creatine mono and Vitamin D. Everything else is icing.

 

[ma70]

This HAS to be the foundation. Supps are luxuries 100%. Only real essentials for me IMO are Creatine mono and Vitamin D. Everything else is icing.

Several hundred dollars later, I figured it out. Better late than never.

 

[HIT4ME]

Several hundred dollars later, I figured it out. Better late than never.

Like I said, I still believe. With all the PES deals in the past month I've probably spent close to $500 on supplements. Most of it is whey powder and stuff that will last me at least a few months - but still. In all reality, I could probably buy a car with financing if I stopped using supplements....

Thank you to all for making this thread interesting. I've been thinking about this, and this and the cocoa thread seem to have had a small impact in this forum - which makes me happy I could contribute. What I've been thinking about though, is how helpful it would be if we had a non-supplement biology/chemistry section that discussed different metabolic processes/pathways and chemicals and gave us some REAL education.

For instance - I have a very rough idea about what cAMP does, but if I could go to a thread on here and find a good explanation and some questions/answers from forum members so that I could learn about it WITH others, that would be amazing. And if we had a sub forum that had this for a bunch of different chemicals and pathways, the knowledge could be completely invaluable. Then if a supplement came out and started talking about being a PDE inhibitor, or an AI, you could just go to the thread and find what a PDE inhibitor does and at least understand the basics without relying on the supplement manufacturer's copy.

This would take some better educated minds than me - but I think it could be very useful.

 

[HIT4ME]

Wow, a blast from the past.

I think people were on the right path that neuronal cAMP has a different set of effects than in other tissues. Stress and mental disorders are often associated with increase cAMP in the brain. Keep in mind that cAMP is a secondary messenger as well.

It would make sense that caffeine blocks adenosine from binding to its receptors in the brain, and the adenosine this increases in neuronal tissue because it is not getting used. Increased adenosine seems to decrease cAMP - which makes sense because cAMP is a secondary messenger.

This may be protective more than anything.

On the other hand, caffeine itself is a PDE inhibitor. I would think cacao and caffeine and forskolin would be a good combo.