ask the patent holder about prohormones

We are having an intelligent discussion and I am not sure why all of the dramatics. For example "The rhizome of Atractylodes japonica Koidz. has been used traditionally for the treatment of water retention in the body and is known to have estrogen-like activity."

So, what's the point of taking a testosterone booster? Sure they are well studied but as a class testosterone boosters are shown to have zero effect on muscle mass in males. Tribulus being the poster child for this one.

I agree with you that proper education is great, but once educated on places like this and warnings, there should be no reason to stay away from prohormones. Being a "noob" doesn't make one any less or more educated than a veteran on any one particular subject.

I think we have hit an impasse here and I appreciate you making sure any Noob's have the proper information to go forward.
 
On a side note AlphaMax looks like a great formula and I applaud the company! :)

We don't have to agree on anything but my point is what is the reason a Noob should start with a testosterone boosting product which when studied in humans has been shown to not have any effect. Boosting Testosterone to massively high levels failed to show any positive effects except minor fat loss.

This is an interesting study:

Metab Syndr Relat Disord. 2015 Aug;13(6):248-54. doi: 10.1089/met.2014.0136. Epub 2015 Apr 28.
Anti-Androgenic Activity of Nardostachys jatamansi DC and Tribulus terrestris L. and Their Beneficial Effects on Polycystic Ovary Syndrome-Induced Rat Models.

Sandeep PM1, Bovee TF2, Sreejith K1.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) is a major hyperandrogenic disorder. Many drugs prescribed specifically to treat PCOS have side effects; however, previous studies suggest that natural therapeutics including botanicals may be less invasive and equally effective for the management of PCOS.
METHODS:
In the present study, plants were screened for antiandrogenic activity using the RIKILT yeast Androgen bioAssay (RAA). Selected positive plants were subsequently tested for their efficacy against PCOS induced by estradiol valerate (EV) in rat models.
RESULTS:
RAA revealed the antiandrogenic property of Nardostachys jatamansi DC (NJ), Tribulus terrestris L. (TT), and Embelia tsjeriam-cottam DC (EJ), whereas Whithania somnifera Dunal (WS), Symplocos racemosa Roxb. (SR), and Helicteres isora L. (HI) exhibited androgenic properties. EJ also exhibited mild androgenic activity and therefore was excluded from further study. EV administration reduced the weight gain and disrupted cyclicity in all rats. NJ and TT extract treatment normalized estrous cyclicity and steroidal hormonal levels and regularized ovarian follicular growth.
CONCLUSION:
The in vitro antiandrogenic activity of plant extracts and their positive effects on different parameters of PCOS were proved in vivo.
 
EricMarchewitz said:
We are having an intelligent discussion and I am not sure why all of the dramatics. For example "The rhizome of Atractylodes japonica Koidz. has been used traditionally for the treatment of water retention in the body and is known to have estrogen-like activity."

So, what's the point of taking a testosterone booster? Sure they are well studied but as a class testosterone boosters are shown to have zero effect on muscle mass in males. Tribulus being the poster child for this one.

I agree with you that proper education is great, but once educated on places like this and warnings, there should be no reason to stay away from prohormones. Being a "noob" doesn't make one any less or more educated than a veteran on any one particular subject.

I think we have hit an impasse here and I appreciate you making sure any Noob's have the proper information to go forward.
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Are you dense? Ashwagandha and forskolin have both been demonstrated to improve lean body mass and body composition. Tribulus is simply one example of something that doesn't work, that doesn't mean nothing else natural does. Also, you you mentioned ashwagandha and estrogen. We have a ton of studies on ashwagandha, and estrogen is not a major issue with it at all. It has been shown to reduce cortisol, increase testosterone, reduce stress and anxiety, improve body composition and endurance, improve sexual function, improve cholesterol, etc. Just because you found a study on ashwagandha with the word "estrogen" in it doesn't mean that it's going o significantly increase estrogen or cause estrogenic side effects in people.
 
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Feb;17(1):92-108.
Eight weeks of aromatase inhibition using the nutritional supplement Novedex XT: effects in young, eugonadal men.

Willoughby DS1, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Campbell W.
Author information
Abstract
This study examined the effects of an aromatase-inhibiting nutritional supplement on serum steroid hormones, body composition, and clinical safety markers. Sixteen eugonadal young men ingested either Novedex XT or a placebo daily for 8 wk, followed by a 3-wk washout period. Body composition was assessed and blood and urine samples obtained at weeks 0, 4, 8, and 11. Data were analyzed by 2-way repeated-measures ANOVA. Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. No significant differences were observed in blood and urinary clinical safety markers or for any of the other serum hormones (P>0.05). This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.
 
EricMarchewitz said:
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Feb;17(1):92-108.
Eight weeks of aromatase inhibition using the nutritional supplement Novedex XT: effects in young, eugonadal men.

Willoughby DS1, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Campbell W.
Author information
Abstract
This study examined the effects of an aromatase-inhibiting nutritional supplement on serum steroid hormones, body composition, and clinical safety markers. Sixteen eugonadal young men ingested either Novedex XT or a placebo daily for 8 wk, followed by a 3-wk washout period. Body composition was assessed and blood and urine samples obtained at weeks 0, 4, 8, and 11. Data were analyzed by 2-way repeated-measures ANOVA. Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. No significant differences were observed in blood and urinary clinical safety markers or for any of the other serum hormones (P>0.05). This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.
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That's a pretty cool study. At least we can agree on that haha.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Are you dense? Ashwagandha and forskolin have both been demonstrated to improve lean body mass and body composition. Tribulus is simply one example of something that doesn't work, that doesn't mean nothing else natural does. Also, you you mentioned ashwagandha and estrogen. We have a ton of studies on ashwagandha, and estrogen is not a major issue with it at all. It has been shown to reduce cortisol, increase testosterone, reduce stress and anxiety, improve body composition and endurance, improve sexual function, improve cholesterol, etc. Just because you found a study on ashwagandha with the word "estrogen" in it doesn't mean that it's going o significantly increase estrogen or cause estrogenic side effects in people.
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Estrogenic substances can have adverse effects on growth plates. I am not opposed to these ingredients and I used to use many of them. I am simply saying that all supplements have side effects and concerns. The inclusion of estrogenic compounds could impact people's growth plates who are not fully developed. To what level? That's impossible to tell but even things like Green Tea and other ingredients have pluses and minuses. Green tea has been demonstrated in some studies to reduce testosterone. We have forums and articles to help guide and educate people. Bottle warnings are always important as well.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
That's a pretty cool study. At least we can agree on that haha.
Click to expand...

My point is that 283-625% increase in testosterone failed to impact muscle mass. Isn't that the point of spending thousands of dollars per year on supplements?

To me it's clear that aromatase inhibitors and other supplements are great to take and can be used effectively as well, but if we are looking at the point of supplements, it's not clear that spending hundreds of dollars on testosterone boosters is worth it since even the "best" of them studied in humans failed to have an effect on muscle mass.

Continue to educate and help new people but I personally feel that the risks on herbal ingredients can be just as high as prohormones (especially ones that don't convert to estrogen).
 
EricMarchewitz said:
My point is that 283-625% increase in testosterone failed to impact muscle mass. Isn't that the point of spending thousands of dollars per year on supplements?
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Maybe because ingredients like ashwagandha and forskolin can improve lean body mass, performance, etc via other MoAs than increasing testosterone? Is increasing testosterone the only way in which muscle can be built? Is it the only way in which libido and mood can be enhanced? Etc.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Maybe because ingredients like ashwagandha and forskolin can improve lean body mass, performance, etc via other MoAs than increasing testosterone? Is increasing testosterone the only way in which muscle can be built? Is it the only way in which libido and mood can be enhanced? Etc.
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No of course not. Forskolin is an excellent ingredient but as stated at levels that I feel are usable, it makes you crap yourself silly. I think that the only reason it works so well at first is due to the laxative effect. If you haven't used it alone at high doses, LOOK OUT. I mean I literally RUN to the bathroom. Laxatives can have issues too but I think Forskolin is reasonably safe and I use it as well!
 
EricMarchewitz said:
No of course not. Forskolin is an excellent ingredient but as stated at levels that I feel are usable, it makes you crap yourself silly. I think that the only reason it works so well at first is due to the laxative effect. If you haven't used it alone at high doses, LOOK OUT. I mean I literally RUN to the bathroom. Laxatives can have issues too but I think Forskolin is reasonably safe and I use it as well!
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I've ran it at 100+ mg per day just fine. Some people don't react well to it, yes, I can agree with that. You really think the only reason it works is as a laxative? Is cAMP not a thing? Does laxative properties explain noted increases in LBM in studies? Also, are we saying a laxative effect is as serious of an adverse effect as suppression of testosterone production? I get it, everything has potential adverse effects, but let's not try to twist it into saying that everything has equal side effects, or that all side effects are somehow equal. The overwhelming general rule is that PHs are more effective than natural supplements in regards to increasing strength and size, but also have more potential and more serious adverse effects. Frankly, I don't even see how you could argue that, and saying "but estrogen" doesn't prove anything.
 
I will say this for natural testosterone boosters:
1. I wish they were called something else as muscleupcrohn as pointed out they mostly work through MOA's not directly through T/E manipulation.
2. While some of the ingredients have been extensively studied such as Ash others have far less and one thing is certain we have almost ZERO studies on the combination, some of these formulas have ten + ingredients, so while we know some of the compounds are super safe it would still be cool to see labs, I am talking CBC/Lipid Panel/ heaptic panel and so on showing the effects of the combination. I expect the results to be mostly if not all positive but till then we don't know for certain the safety of all these compounds combined(now of course same thing applies to a Epi/1/4dhea stack we have zero research on that combo as well.)

When I win the lottery I am going to fund the **** out of some really cool studies lol.
 
EricMarchewitz said:
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007 Feb;17(1):92-108.
Eight weeks of aromatase inhibition using the nutritional supplement Novedex XT: effects in young, eugonadal men.

Willoughby DS1, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Campbell W.
Author information
Abstract
This study examined the effects of an aromatase-inhibiting nutritional supplement on serum steroid hormones, body composition, and clinical safety markers. Sixteen eugonadal young men ingested either Novedex XT or a placebo daily for 8 wk, followed by a 3-wk washout period. Body composition was assessed and blood and urine samples obtained at weeks 0, 4, 8, and 11. Data were analyzed by 2-way repeated-measures ANOVA. Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. No significant differences were observed in blood and urinary clinical safety markers or for any of the other serum hormones (P>0.05). This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.
Click to expand...

The issue with a lot of supplement studies is that due to cost issues, diet and workout are not controlled.

Supplements almost universally perform better in studies where both groups are on a monitored diet and workout plan.

Increasing your capacity for hypertrophy while not actually increasing your workout volume or calorie consumption to take advantage of that is silly.
 
I am all to familiar with the difficulty in nutrition/supplement studies. Short of making people prisoners for the length of the study there are so many variables that can be influenced. That is one of the reasons a very large study with 1000's of participants helps but of course who has the cash for that.

Putting aside building muscle:

I would love to have labs on folks using natural test boosters. Pretty much everyone agrees that a couple hundred points increase on test does not produce considerable if any muscle gain. I would like to see if there was any effect on lipids in particular. We know at certain doses of test lipids become negatively effected. It would be really cool to see roughly where this happens. For instance say with the natty booster we go from 750 to 1000. With this increase we see no statistically significant change in lipids. Now we use a 4dhea and get levels to say 1500. We see a minor effect on lipids. And then finally we use some test to get it up to say 2000 and check lipids again. I think it would be interesting to get a rough estimate as to when and where a test increase starts to effect lipids.

I would love to see the same for estrogen levels.

I know this would most likely vary wildly from person to person. Once my student debt is paid I am going to have a new hobby of getting labs drawn. lol
 
BCseacow83 said:
I am all to familiar with the difficulty in nutrition/supplement studies. Short of making people prisoners for the length of the study there are so many variables that can be influenced. That is one of the reasons a very large study with 1000's of participants helps but of course who has the cash for that.

Putting aside building muscle:

I would love to have labs on folks using natural test boosters. Pretty much everyone agrees that a couple hundred points increase on test does not produce considerable if any muscle gain. I would like to see if there was any effect on lipids in particular. We know at certain doses of test lipids become negatively effected. It would be really cool to see roughly where this happens. For instance say with the natty booster we go from 750 to 1000. With this increase we see no statistically significant change in lipids. Now we use a 4dhea and get levels to say 1500. We see a minor effect on lipids. And then finally we use some test to get it up to say 2000 and check lipids again. I think it would be interesting to get a rough estimate as to when and where a test increase starts to effect lipids.

I would love to see the same for estrogen levels.

I know this would most likely vary wildly from person to person. Once my student debt is paid I am going to have a new hobby of getting labs drawn. lol
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We saw more than a "minor" effect on cholesterol in the Texas 1-andro study. Granted, it was a small sample size and only one study, but it certainly encourages more research and practicing some basic level of caution and observation when using it. Also, with natural testosterone boosters, there are other variables and MoAs at play that can effect lipids independent of testosterone. Ashwagandha is a common example. It slightly increases testosterone but also improves HDL/LDL. We can't really say that the slight increase in testosterone was what lead to the improvements, only that they both occurred with ashwagandha supplementation. Maybe a study using exogenous testosterone to raise the subjects' test levels to various points and seeing what conclusions can be drawn based on the changes in their lipids. Or doing the same to see how various doses of 1-andro effect lipids. If you want to know how testosterone effects lipids, you ideally want to change/introduce as few variables as possible, and the many MoAs coming from test boosters could really "muddy the water."
 
De__eB said:
The issue with a lot of supplement studies is that due to cost issues, diet and workout are not controlled.

Supplements almost universally perform better in studies where both groups are on a monitored diet and workout plan.

Increasing your capacity for hypertrophy while not actually increasing your workout volume or calorie consumption to take advantage of that is silly.
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Fair point but it doesn't look like the 1-DHEA study followed this protocol either.
 
De__eB said:
Also, both studies on 6-OXO used DEXA scans.

DEXA is susceptible to skew from hydration status.

What's an AI likely to do to hydration status?
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An AI would likely reduce water retention which could skew the numbers. This is the fun part of the forum discussing and learning together.
 
VaughnTrue said:
all anabolics screw up cholesterol. but it always goes back to baseline a few weeks after.
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My total cholesterol goes up to around 170 from blood work I’ve done on cycle (high doses of test). Goes back to 130 within a few weeks of pct.
 
bigdavid said:
My total cholesterol goes up to around 170 from blood work I’ve done on cycle (high doses of test). Goes back to 130 within a few weeks of pct.
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I am also wondering if it's the combination of 1-DHEA and the DHB. That's a great ingredient but could impact how the liver processes in combination with 1-DHEA. 1-AD never showed that kind of impact which is odd.
 
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