Addition to cycle

Alchemist11

Alchemist11

Well-known member
As title says guys, I'm here to ask you what would be a nice addition to my cycle? It will be 12 weeks in total.
Sustanon 300 (600mg) 1-12 wk,
Turinabol (50 mg ED) 1-6 wk,
Trenavar (as finisher) 105 mg ED, 8-12 wk,
I god Arimidex, Nolva, Fish oil, Liv 55, etc...
What could I run alongside this stack? I was thinking maybe Masteron at 450 mg? What do you think?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the orals take a few weeks to "kick in"? So If you are running 6 weeks of tbol you are only getting 2-3 good weeks and then you drop it, start a new compound, and wait for it to kick in too..

What I'm getting at is, why not run the TBOL all the way through, wouldn't that be more effective?

Also, what BF% are you at and what goal are you trying to accomplish by adding the masteron?
 
Well, my experience with tbol (at least for me) is that it kicks in during second week. Also, I want to cut for this one, I'm 183 lbs, 6', bf is about 14%. I would use it for hardening
 
Are you completly sure you wanna run sust for 12 weeks?? It will give you gains within 4-6 weeks and do you know how often you have to pin it to keep stable blood levels?

Sust is so drastic compared to even prop that you don't need to run it that long and since it works so fast the water retention can be tricky. If you havent used sust I strongly recommend you to not just go 600 and think it's gonna be a fun ride, some people will get intense pain from pinning this.

Skip the trenavar and just run mast, I swear that trenavar won't do anything after sust and tbol. Or you skip the tbol and go trenavar (to save money)
 
Chados said:
Are you completly sure you wanna run sust for 12 weeks?? It will give you gains within 4-6 weeks and do you know how often you have to pin it to keep stable blood levels?

Sust is so drastic compared to even prop that you don't need to run it that long and since it works so fast the water retention can be tricky. If you havent used sust I strongly recommend you to not just go 600 and think it's gonna be a fun ride, some people will get intense pain from pinning this.

Skip the trenavar and just run mast, I swear that trenavar won't do anything after sust and tbol. Or you skip the tbol and go trenavar (to save money)
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My mistake, I have enough sustanon for 10 weeks, and have Test E for about 2 weeks, so I wanted to use leftover Test E first. Why do you say that Sustanon is drastic?
 
Alchemist11 said:
Well, my experience with tbol (at least for me) is that it kicks in during second week. Also, I want to cut for this one, I'm 183 lbs, 6', bf is about 14%. I would use it for hardening
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In my opinion if your going to cut lower your test dose to about 2-300/week and use other drugs that better suit your goal.
Running that high for 1 your prob going to have some bloat and 2 cutting you only need enough test to feel good and keep from muscle wasting. You can still build muscle even while cutting bf. You want the other compounds to be the superstar in this type of cycle. You simply don't need 600 mg of test to cut. To me personally multiple compounds are better served bulking but I understand what your wanting to do. That's first.

Next I think tbol is a great choice, very versatile. It does kick in relatively quick for an oral and I agree with your assessment 2 weeks in and its working well. Your diet is going to play the biggest role in how this cycle goes imo. If you can cut down to 12% by the time you finish the tbol you could easily add in masteron at 4-600 mg for weeks 5-12 (8 weeks) or even sooner. And for your choice of a finisher ive never used tvar but I've always heard lackluster reports with this compound and nothing stellar. I would stick with what's tried and true as a finishing drug like anavar @40-100mg. In my experience real anavar works and works well at only 40 mg/day. 60 is the sweet spot in my opinion where going above you don't see much more for your return. The problem is a lot of anavar is underdosed or even possibly faked. Your other option is Winstrol at 25-50 mg/day which is the king of hardeners and finishers but comes with a cost of trashing the lipids and its also really tough on the joints. Imo grab you some masteron some var or Winstrol and cut your test dose at least in half.
 
Alchemist11 said:
My mistake, I have enough sustanon for 10 weeks, and have Test E for about 2 weeks, so I wanted to use leftover Test E first. Why do you say that Sustanon is drastic?
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Sust is just test but the way the esters work makes the weight and strength gain really fast like a dbol compared to a tbol. 12 weeks is just a looooot of pinning with sust. People run prop for 8-10 weeks and enthanate 10-12. as I said sust = faster gains so why would you go 12? Sust has 3 esters, 1 short, 1 medium and one long making it difficult to know when to pin. The pinning can also be very painful to some and the extended time will most likely cause water retention instead of muscles.

Some people use sust as pre workout or as a kickstarter for E. Id go 6 weeks and E 2 weeks, since E will linger about two weeks more you pretty much end up with 9-10 weeks
 
Sustanon has small amounts of short esters, medium esters (like propionate, phenyl propionate and enanthate) and largest dose is a longer ester usually decanoate. Medium and long esters carry the majority of the weight in Sustanon. Its a blend so you do feel an initial burst with the short esters (which imo is good) while the longer esters start working. Once you get to about week 4 or 5 it doesn't matter your fine pinning twice a week to keep everything (test levels) stable. With Sustanon people either love it or hate it I personally love it because the small amount of shore testers that get in the system quickly. There's no waiting you get an initial blast right off the rip.
 
Godstrength said:
There's no waiting you get an initial blast right off the rip.
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I love TNE for this. I home brewed a ****load and used PWO. I was sore as **** everywhere (lol) but I loved the energy and aggression. At 185lb I left my 250lb boxing coach with sore hands after every session with the mitts lol.
 
I read a lot here, and most of the guys say that Test gives you above 500 mg, since test is test, why are you guys against 600 mg of sustanon? For Tbol it's been said that he gives chance to other compounds to shine, along with him
 
Because of how it acts in your body. It's very quick, and it's recommended 4-6 weeks. It's not like enthanate where you pretty much start and stop gaining at week 4-10. With susta you start and stop between 1-6. Not saying you won't gain anything if you go longer but your body will barely grow when you go too long. Sust also seems to bloat more and 600 isn't a small dosage, Especially during a cut
 
Chados said:
Because of how it acts in your body. It's very quick, and it's recommended 4-6 weeks. It's not like enthanate where you pretty much start and stop gaining at week 4-10. With susta you start and stop between 1-6. Not saying you won't gain anything if you go longer but your body will barely grow when you go too long. Sust also seems to bloat more and 600 isn't a small dosage, Especially during a cut
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I understand your point. I think that some people respond better to test (any kind), than others, like on any other compound
 
Chados said:
Because of how it acts in your body. It's very quick, and it's recommended 4-6 weeks. It's not like enthanate where you pretty much start and stop gaining at week 4-10. With susta you start and stop between 1-6. Not saying you won't gain anything if you go longer but your body will barely grow when you go too long. Sust also seems to bloat more and 600 isn't a small dosage, Especially during a cut
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That's not true at all the majority of the weight in Sustanon is decanoate which has an active life of 18 days. Something like enanthate or cypionate will actually clear your system faster.
 
Godstrength said:
That's not true at all the majority of the weight in Sustanon is decanoate which has an active life of 18 days. Something like enanthate or cypionate will actually clear your system faster.
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What's exactly isn't? I was talking about gains
 
Chados said:
What's exactly isn't? I was talking about gains
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You said Sustanon gains only come Week 1 through 6. And that it's good for short Cycles. When I get a second I'll explain to you why that's not valid and yes I'm talking about gains as far as putting on size and strength.
 
Chados said:
What's exactly isn't? I was talking about gains
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True Sustanon has 4 esters in it

Propionate 30 mg (3 days)
Phenylpropionate 60 mg (5 days)
Isacaproate 60 mg (9.5 days)
Decanoate 100mg (18 days)

Listed above is the mgs in Sustanon 250 as well as the half life (days) for each ester. Now UGL make different variations for example they may use undecanoate instead of decanoate or use enanthate instead of isacoproate because they have similar half lives and are interchangeable. The idea with Sustanon is a short ester, middle esters and a longer ester. Sustanon was originally designed for testosterone replacement and was meant to be taken once a month. This doesn't work well even though it has the decanoate ester in it. This is a discussion for a different time so I'm not going to get into that.

So this is how it works in real life. When you use Sustanon you have the initial short ester (propionate) which has the least amount of milligrams which begins working first. It's in and out of the system quick as well as phenyl propionate which has 60 mg and a half life of 5 days which also gets in the system relatively quickly. So as to your reasoning and logic if there were only these two Esters in Sustanon then yes probably a 6-week cycle would be ideal.

But here's where your reasoning is flawed. It also contains a middle Ester with isacaproate and a long Ester decanoate. Isacaproate has a half life of 9 days and enanthate has a half life of 10 I believe. So the isacaproate in Sustanon is very similar to enanthate or cypionate. It doesn't start working full strength for at least a few weeks. So you get the initial working of the short esters while the middle and longer esters begin to reach peak testosterone levels. Then last you have decanoate. This has the longest Ester so takes the longest to kick in. By week 6 it's really just starting to work at peak levels. It also contains the most milligrams so it is the primary Ester in the compound the PowerHouse if you will. The gains from the middle and long esters will come from weeks 4 or 5 plus. So if you stop using Sustanon at week 6 you never really experience the benefits of the middle and longer esters. And here's the thing with that. There is 90 mg of the shorter esters in Sustanon 250. There is 160 mg of the middle and longer esters. So this compound is actually better suited and better used to be run for long term (longer cycles).

The beautiful thing about this for me is that as each ester releases testosterone in the body and begins to stabilize the strength gains build the muscle gains build everything builds slowly over time until it reaches a climax at about week 8. Week 8 through 12 you see some of your biggest gains on Sustanon. This is real world experience and I have never heard anyone recommend running a Sustanon cycle for 6 weeks.
 
Godstrength said:
True Sustanon has 4 esters in it

Propionate 30 mg (3 days)
Phenylpropionate 60 mg (5 days)
Isacaproate 60 mg (9.5 days)
Decanoate 100mg (18 days)

Listed above is the mgs in Sustanon 250 as well as the half life (days) for each ester. Now UGL make different variations for example they may use undecanoate instead of decanoate or use enanthate instead of isacoproate because they have similar half lives and are interchangeable. The idea with Sustanon is a short ester, middle esters and a longer ester. Sustanon was originally designed for testosterone replacement and was meant to be taken once a month. This doesn't work well even though it has the decanoate ester in it. This is a discussion for a different time so I'm not going to get into that.

So this is how it works in real life. When you use Sustanon you have the initial short ester (propionate) which has the least amount of milligrams which begins working first. It's in and out of the system quick as well as phenyl propionate which has 60 mg and a half life of 5 days which also gets in the system relatively quickly. So as to your reasoning and logic if there were only these two Esters in Sustanon then yes probably a 6-week cycle would be ideal.

But here's where your reasoning is flawed. It also contains a middle Ester with isacaproate and a long Ester decanoate. Isacaproate has a half life of 9 days and enanthate has a half life of 10 I believe. So the isacaproate in Sustanon is very similar to enanthate or cypionate. It doesn't start working full strength for at least a few weeks. So you get the initial working of the short esters while the middle and longer esters begin to reach peak testosterone levels. Then last you have decanoate. This has the longest Ester so takes the longest to kick in. By week 6 it's really just starting to work at peak levels. It also contains the most milligrams so it is the primary Ester in the compound the PowerHouse if you will. The gains from the middle and long esters will come from weeks 4 or 5 plus. So if you stop using Sustanon at week 6 you never really experience the benefits of the middle and longer esters. And here's the thing with that. There is 90 mg of the shorter esters in Sustanon 250. There is 160 mg of the middle and longer esters. So this compound is actually better suited and better used to be run for long term (longer cycles).

The beautiful thing about this for me is that as each ester releases testosterone in the body and begins to stabilize the strength gains build the muscle gains build everything builds slowly over time until it reaches a climax at about week 8. Week 8 through 12 you see some of your biggest gains on Sustanon. This is real world experience and I have never heard anyone recommend running a Sustanon cycle for 6 weeks.
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What this man says!
I think we are a bit off topic here guys, what are your experiences with Tbol?
 
Godstrength said:
You said Sustanon gains only come Week 1 through 6. And that it's good for short Cycles. When I get a second I'll explain to you why that's not valid and yes I'm talking about gains as far as putting on size and strength.
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I didn't say it doesn't give gains at all I said they were diminished and that you'll end up with more water retention


In a performance capacity we will find the individual will still be required to inject the hormone frequently if he is to maintain not only stable blood levels but peaked blood levels. Many often inaccurately assume Sustanon 250 is superior over single ester testosterone forms due to the fact that it carries four distinct testosterones in a single injection. As for the basic functioning traits of testosterone, they will be the same with Sustanon 250 as they are with all testosterone forms. They will be no more or less powerful or effective.


30mg Testosterone Propionate
60mg Testosterone Phenylpropionate
60mg Testosterone Isocaproate
100mg Testosterone Decanoate

It's not mainly decanoate, and I was wrong earlier it's actually 2 medium esters making it 4 all together.

Omnadren (originally) carried 100mg of Testosterone Caproate instead of Testosterone Decanoate. However, modern Omnadren now carries the Decanoate ester making it identical to Sustanon 250



The dosing has been talked about a lot from 3 times a week to 1 time every 3 weeks on trt. It seems that the most optimal is 3 times a week. Since it's mixed esters the gains will be very drastic and while enthanate kinda has to be ran 10 weeks to get full potential sustanon doesn't.


In not saying youre out of line here but tell me how enthanate gains slows down greatly after week 8-9 and sustanon supposedly will make you grow more at week 12? Considering enthanate is all about long esters. I mean it doesn't make sense
 
let me ask you a question... how long do you reccommend a deca to be run on cycle. Deca durabolin not NPP.
 
Alchemist11 said:
What this man says!
I think we are a bit off topic here guys, what are your experiences with Tbol?
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Tbol is alright.. depends on what you compare it with. It gives mean mass , not shreddes but more recomp gains and is so expensive that I don't really touch it anymore. I rather spend money on mast.
 
Alchemist11 said:
What this man says!
I think we are a bit off topic here guys, what are your experiences with Tbol?
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TBOL is one of my favorite orals, period. Very low side effects and very good (dry) gains. East Germans used to dope their Olympic athletes (men and women) with it and they were destroying everybody lol.
 
RickyBlobby said:
TBOL is one of my favorite orals, period. Very low side effects and very good (dry) gains. East Germans used to dope their Olympic athletes (men and women) with it and they were destroying everybody lol.
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Thats one of the reasons why I am thaking it for (sport purposes along with bodybuilding) lol
 
Godstrength said:
let me ask you a question... how long do you reccomend a deca cycle. Deca durabolin not NPP.
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Again deca is all about long ester and it's definitely slower than enthanate. Probably 12-16 weeks. I've only ran sust once and I don't know wether it's the old or the new version but I don't Think it differs that much from enthanate except the gains come much quicker. I feel that it's faster than prop but you can run it longer. What makes me doubt running it 12 weeks is 1. It has short esters and medium while enthanate has only slow and I don't see any major difference on E after week 8 or 9. The other reason is the pain sustanon gives people. The last is that he has enthanate and can use that and both save money and decrease injections.
 
Try test, primo , eq and mast. There you have a lean cycle with mild compounds. Price can be tough though.
 
Chados said:
Again deca is all about long ester and it's definitely slower than enthanate. Probably 12-16 weeks. I've only ran sust once and I don't know wether it's the old or the new version but I don't Think it differs that much from enthanate except the gains come much quicker. I feel that it's faster than prop but you can run it longer. What makes me doubt running it 12 weeks is 1. It has short esters and medium while enthanate has only slow and I don't see any major difference on E after week 8 or 9. The other reason is the pain sustanon gives people. The last is that he has enthanate and can use that and both save money and decrease injections.
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Nandrolone decanoate is the same ester that's in Sustanon- testosterone decanoate. So Chados you have to understand the Ester is responsible for how long it actually takes to work and how long it takes to clear the system. If you would recommend someone to run Deca- nandrolone decanoate for 12 to 16 weeks then why would you suggest something different for the same estered testosterone. The only difference is one is testosterone one is nandrolone but the way that they act in the body (half life) is the same. It takes longer to start working and works better over time.

The same with enanthate I know you would not recommend a 6-week enanthate cycle. I've seen you give advice you give decent advice man. So why would you recommend a testosterone with an ester similar (isacaproate) to an enanthate to be run at 6 weeks? It takes longer to kick in and works better over time.
 
Chados said:
Try test, primo , eq and mast. There you have a lean cycle with mild compounds. Price can be tough though.
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My last cycle was a bit insane, and someone would say dumb and overkill, but gains from that cycle are game changer! I ran Test E at 600 for 18 wk, Eq at 600 for 16 wk, anadrol from 1-5 at 100, and later at 75 mg from 12-16 wk.
Drawback about EQ is the length of a cycle that need to be for it to kick in and shine
 
Godstrength said:
Nandrolone decanoate is the same ester that's in Sustanon- testosterone decanoate. So Chados you have to understand the Ester is responsible for how long it actually takes to work and how long it takes to clear the system. If you would recommend someone to run Deca- nandrolone decanoate for 12 to 16 weeks then why would you suggest something different for the same estered testosterone. The only difference is one is testosterone one is nandrolone what the way that they act in the body (half life) is the same. It takes longer to start working and works better over time.

The same with enanthate I know you would not recommend a 6-week enanthate cycle. I've seen you give advice you give decent advice man. So why would you recommend a testosterone with an ester similar (isacaproate) to an enanthate to be run at 6 weeks? It takes longer to kick in and works better over time.
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No I most have a memory from the old sust. Still it's not enthanate so I don't see it being the same as enthanate. You're not gonna gain more on week 12 than 8.
 
Chados said:
No I most have a memory from the old sust. Still it's not enthanate so I don't see it being the same as enthanate. You're not gonna gain more on week 12 than 8.
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Lol this is what happens when people just parrot what they've heard. Run Deca for 12 to 16 weeks but I have no idea why LOL.

Bro I give up you just don't get the concepts of anabolics and how they work.

You're right it doesn't have enanthate it has isacaproate and decanoate which are as long or longer acting than enanthate. You're just not grasping the concept.
 
Alchemist11 said:
My last cycle was a bit insane, and someone would say dumb and overkill, but gains from that cycle are game changer! I ran Test E at 600 for 18 wk, Eq at 600 for 16 wk, anadrol from 1-5 at 100, and later at 75 mg from 12-16 wk.
Drawback about EQ is the length of a cycle that need to be for it to kick in and shine
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my last cycle was drol 150 as the highest, test 320, tren 400 and kickstart tbol at 60 so I am the wrong guy to call you crazy haha. Nice cycle tho, must have been lean muscle mass
 
Godstrength said:
Lol this is what happens when people just parrot what they've heard. Run Deca for 12 to 16 weeks but I have no idea why LOL.

Bro I give up you just don't get the concepts of anabolics and how they work.

And also there is no such thing as an old Sustanon and a new Sustanon LOL I'm not sure what that even means.
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What ? Are you trying to gain points here? I said 16 weeks because deca has extremly slow gains.. sustanon doesn't. And yes there is. Instead of saying I don't know just because I didn't explain, why don't you answer my question? Enthanate is 10-12 why is sust just as long considering it has shorter esters attached?
 
Chados said:
my last cycle was drol 150 as the highest, test 320, tren 400 and kickstart tbol at 60 so I am the wrong guy to call you crazy haha. Nice cycle tho, must have been lean muscle mass
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Yes, gains were awesome, hunger on eq was insane, and aggression from Anadrol was high up. But the eq and it's effect on physique are realy what suprised me the most
 
Alchemist11 said:
What this man says!
I think we are a bit off topic here guys, what are your experiences with Tbol?
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My bad man didn't mean to derail...

Tbol is an awesome compound. The thing I like about it so much as it's versatile. You can use it to bulk,recomp, cut or just about any other situation you can think of. The sides are minimal (slight bp issue is all I got). The gains are lean and dry. And it kicks in fast. You also feel pretty good on it which is a plus.
 
Sorry let me be more clear

Omnadren is a four-part testosterone blend that is virtually identical to Sustanon 250. While the original mixture was slightly different, the current model is a perfect mirror

Omnadren (originally) carried 100mg of Testosterone Caproate instead of Testosterone Decanoate. However, modern Omnadren now carries the Decanoate ester making it identical to Sustanon 250

Other name same thing..
 
Alchemist11 said:
Yes, gains were awesome, hunger on eq was insane, and aggression from Anadrol was high up. But the eq and it's effect on physique are realy what suprised me the most
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You'd love mast for sure if you're at low body fat. I like primo over eq, more tren like gains but a bit weaker as a mass gainer. Stacking them is great.
 
Chados said:
What ? Are you trying to gain points here? I said 16 weeks because deca has extremly slow gains.. sustanon doesn't. And yes there is. Instead of saying I don't know just because I didn't explain, why don't you answer my question? Enthanate is 10-12 why is sust just as long considering it has shorter esters attached?
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Decanoate ester. Longer half life, takes longer than enanthate to start working. I laid it out for you in a way my middle school daughter would understand. You still don't get it.

Sustanon doesn't just have short Esters it has middle and Long Esters as well. That's what your not grasping.
 
Godstrength said:
Decanoate ester. Longer half life, takes longer than enanthate to start working. I laid it out for you in a way my middle school daughter would understand. You still don't get it.
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They are not all long estered. It's one out of 4 and that ester is not gonna outdo the others at week 12.
 
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