Epiandro killing estro while on test

[kladd]

Currently on 200mg/week test-e, on week 4 of 20mg/day oral rad140 and 20mg injected yk11 on workout days. Added in oral epiandro at 300mg twice a day, and am experiencing some low estro sides. Fatigue/lethargy, anxiety, moodiness, joints a little more unhappy than usual, morning wood hit and miss, libido is meh. Was taking mk677/cjc1295-dac on workout days, and have since stopped assuming the extreme fatigue was attributed to that. Was also thinking joints may be a yk11 issue, but have yet to discontinue use. Been reading that epi can lower estro and cause some issues, but was thinking with 200mg of test it shouldn’t be that low. I had some TD 4 Andro, so I’ve been applying some to see if I can get some estro conversion, and have ordered oral DHEA and sublingual pregnenolone. Was initially concerned with high estro being an issue, but have no high estro sides like gyno. Gains haven’t really been anything to write home about, but only on week 4 and I know low estro will also kill gains. Took this week as a deload and taking a couple extra days off the gym to recover. Any advice? Really hoping to at least finish the run with the rad140, but concerned that I’m wasting product and time. If I have no success with DHEA and preg, would upping my test to say 300ish be beneficial?

 

[Dustin07]

Fatigue/lethargy, anxiety, moodiness, joints a little more unhappy than usual, morning wood hit and miss, libido is meh.

If I have no success with DHEA and preg, would upping my test to say 300ish be beneficial?

I can't speak to the test, rad, or others, but your description of sides are normal for me on epiandro. I have run as high as about 1300mg successfully with some hair shedding but if I get sides, lethargy is a biggy although I usually associate it with bigger gym sessions forcing harder recovery. at 600mg I see myself yelling at other cars on the highway (LOL). anxiety can hit around 600mg+ as well. I'm just taking 300mg oral right now with 75mg (1 pump) transdermal and it feels great. no noticeable sides at all. Morning wood for me is absolutely annoying, I'm up at 3am every single morning. but my full stack is M-Test, Anacolic XT, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Epiandro, and some XPG carnitine on my stomach. The M-Test is a wood builder. I also use XPG Alpha Gel anytime I feel like I want a little boost in that area but the M-Test is more than enough even at a half dose for me.

of course, thats me. I don't have the other things going on like you do with test/rad etc. I just thought it was interesting that your sides mimic what I've experienced with epiandro.

I can't do preg, I get itchy nips, so if I do run DHEA i use xpg dhea.

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

curious how can you pinpoint to epiandro ? when running 2 Sarms together at the same time.

you might be 100%right, was just wondering.

fatigue/lethargy most likely wont go away imo at this point even with addition of 4andro.
hopefully im wrong but im thinking until you finish the sarms cycle. esp rad your going to deal with those sides.

 

[kladd]

curious how can you pinpoint to epiandro ? when running 2 Sarms together at the same time.

you might be 100%right, was just wondering.

fatigue/lethargy most likely wont go away imo at this point even with addition of 4andro.
hopefully im wrong but im thinking until you finish the sarms cycle. esp rad your going to deal with those sides.

I’ve ran rad140 a couple times in the past, as well as a run with mk677 and never experienced any of the sides. One of my runs was 4andro and rad140 and had great results and felt amazing. Literally felt like a beast in and out of the gym that last few weeks of that run. I was concerned with all aspects of the cycle, just trying to pinpoint the fatigue and lethargy. I started the epi about 2 weeks after all other things, and a few days into epi is when the fatigue really got worse. I’m not 100% sure it’s the epi, but from what I’ve been able to read on each , and my past experience with rad, it seemed the most likely culprit.

 

[kladd]

I can't speak to the test, rad, or others, but your description of sides are normal for me on epiandro. I have run as high as about 1300mg successfully with some hair shedding but if I get sides, lethargy is a biggy although I usually associate it with bigger gym sessions forcing harder recovery. at 600mg I see myself yelling at other cars on the highway (LOL). anxiety can hit around 600mg+ as well. I'm just taking 300mg oral right now with 75mg (1 pump) transdermal and it feels great. no noticeable sides at all. Morning wood for me is absolutely annoying, I'm up at 3am every single morning. but my full stack is M-Test, Anacolic XT, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Epiandro, and some XPG carnitine on my stomach. The M-Test is a wood builder. I also use XPG Alpha Gel anytime I feel like I want a little boost in that area but the M-Test is more than enough even at a half dose for me.

of course, thats me. I don't have the other things going on like you do with test/rad etc. I just thought it was interesting that your sides mimic what I've experienced with epiandro.

I can't do preg, I get itchy nips, so if I do run DHEA i use xpg dhea.

Yeah I’ve read a few posts of people having issues with epi. I was hoping it was just some low estro sides, but may have to end the epi so I can finish out the cycle with everything else

 

[Dustin07]

Yeah I’ve read a few posts of people having issues with epi. I was hoping it was just some low estro sides, but may have to end the epi so I can finish out the cycle with everything else

first couple times I ran epi I just stuck with 600mg for 8 weeks and called it clean.
Then I did the megadosing to 1300mg. Not sure I noticed a difference between the two.
now running my smaller dose, for much longer period. I'd have to check my log but I think its going to be a full 12+ weeks this time. with OCCASIONAL daily doses of 600-750mg tops. but the few times that I did try a larger dose (basically an extra oral, and/or an extra pump of the TD) I could see the slight hint of anxiety building so I typically just stick with my 300mg oral + 1 pump of TD and call it good.

to be 100% honest I think my natty stuff, the anabolic xt and the phosphatidic acid xt do more.

 

[kladd]

first couple times I ran epi I just stuck with 600mg for 8 weeks and called it clean.
Then I did the megadosing to 1300mg. Not sure I noticed a difference between the two.
now running my smaller dose, for much longer period. I'd have to check my log but I think its going to be a full 12+ weeks this time. with OCCASIONAL daily doses of 600-750mg tops. but the few times that I did try a larger dose (basically an extra oral, and/or an extra pump of the TD) I could see the slight hint of anxiety building so I typically just stick with my 300mg oral + 1 pump of TD and call it good.

to be 100% honest I think my natty stuff, the anabolic xt and the phosphatidic acid xt do more.

Yeah I’m really not sure if I want to just drop the dose to 300 and keep running, or stopping altogether to see if the fatigue stops. I’m currently doing 300 am and 300 pre workout. And like I’ve said, the fatigue and lethargy has been a real issue. Been days I layed down at 4pm and slept off and on until work the next day(6am). I’ve taken 3 extra days off the gym this week to make sure I wasnt overdoing it. Hoping my DHEA and preg will come in today, and if I don’t notice anything energy wise in the next few days I will likely just stop taking it. I already have plenty of AI on hand in case estro gets high, but the symptoms just point more low estro, but possibly just the epi giving me bad sides.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Interested in following this...

 

[ironviking]

Is this your first time running test? I'd say drop the rad140 and yk11, up the test to atleast 250 preferably 300 and keep the epiA at 600. EpiA will take down SHBG which will free up the test and probably help aromatization to get some estrogen flowing again.
Might be worth it to get some blood work done too so you know where your estrogen is at. That rhythm place does their basic panel at 75. All done at home too just slap that device on your arm and let it suck your blood like a little vampire.

 

[botk1161]

If you think its the epiandro, remove it and see how you feel in a week or so. I don't think your gonna figure it out by adding other things.

 

[kladd]

Is this your first time running test? I'd say drop the rad140 and yk11, up the test to atleast 250 preferably 300 and keep the epiA at 600. EpiA will take down SHBG which will free up the test and probably help aromatization to get some estrogen flowing again.
Might be worth it to get some blood work done too so you know where your estrogen is at. That rhythm place does their basic panel at 75. All done at home too just slap that device on your arm and let it suck your blood like a little vampire.

Not my first time running test. Ran a cycle at 500mg and never needed any AI, never had gyno, never any estro sides, only noticeable side was increased acne on my back. Had multiple bloods done over the past year and test has been low each time, but the dr never ran estro. Was prescribed TRT, but insurance won’t cover the prescription so I’m self medicating at 200/wk. Have plenty to run all the way up to 500/wk, but planned to keep it low as possible to keep sides(acne, BP, lipids) minimal. Looking at getting more bloods done to see where everything is at, but dealing with my insurance is a effin joke so it will be through a side company. Will look into rhythm. I was hoping to keep running the rad at least, I’ve never had any sides from rad and I’m running from the same source I’ve used. Yk actually seems to give me a little bump in energy post injection, but I suspect it may be feeding into the joint issues as that’s one of the biggest sides. Joints are sore but it’s really the fatigue that’s the issue. Anxiety could be worse, joints could be worse, but this fatigue is killer.

 

[kladd]

If you think its the epiandro, remove it and see how you feel in a week or so. I don't think your gonna figure it out by adding other things.

This is where I’m honestly leaning, I was just gonna give the DHEA and preg a shot. Read here that some have had good success with them within a couple days. Mine should be in today and plan to run a good dose through the weekend, and if there’s no noticeable changes by Monday probably drop the epi and see what changes. I’ve never experienced any high estro sides even at 500 test for a couple months, and I was low test(189 total) prior to starting this cycle(starting TRT realistically, plan to stay on test) I was thinking maybe my estro was just never really high and epi may be blocking it even further. Just a last ditch effort before dropping the epi

 

[ironviking]

Probably the epi then since you have experience with the other compounds. But it might be worth adding in dhea and preg as that does help with hormone optimization while on trt. Not sure if trying that with the other compounds is a good idea though. Be interesting to see though

 

[Dustin07]

Probably the epi then since you have experience with the other compounds.

even though I don't have experience with the other compounds... and maybe because I don't have experience with the other compounds, I kinda think this too because his sides feel familiar to me any time I've basically run any ph at a decent dose. Although I will say when I ran gear cream for a few months I didn't have any anxiety issues but the doses of each compound were on the low side.

only other thing I can say is with my experience like I mentioned, I always associated the lethargy to the fact that my gym sessions were way more intense and I figured it was recovery. kinda like a growing puppy or your teenage growth spurt years for me.

 

[kladd]

Probably the epi then since you have experience with the other compounds. But it might be worth adding in dhea and preg as that does help with hormone optimization while on trt. Not sure if trying that with the other compounds is a good idea though. Be interesting to see though

Yeah, I figured having them on hand would be a good idea long term since I’ve read many times that those on TRT benefit from DHEA and or preg. Really ending the epi is what it is, didn’t expect much from it, just hoped to use it up since I already payed for it lol.

 

[kladd]

even though I don't have experience with the other compounds... and maybe because I don't have experience with the other compounds, I kinda think this too because his sides feel familiar to me any time I've basically run any ph at a decent dose. Although I will say when I ran gear cream for a few months I didn't have any anxiety issues but the doses of each compound were on the low side.

only other thing I can say is with my experience like I mentioned, I always associated the lethargy to the fact that my gym sessions were way more intense and I figured it was recovery. kinda like a growing puppy or your teenage growth spurt years for me.

This was a concern for me too, the gym is definitely my own therapy and sometimes when life gets intense, training sessions get equally intense. Can really be hard to step away for a few days lol

 

[ironviking]

This was a concern for me too, the gym is definitely my own therapy and sometimes when life gets intense, training sessions get equally intense. Can really be hard to step away for a few days lol

Sometimes I don't step away to rest. I'll go to the gym see the sights smell the smells say hi to some of the other gym rats and hit the sauna. Keeps my mind in the game even when my body says it needs a rest FWIW

 

[Dustin07]

This was a concern for me too, the gym is definitely my own therapy and sometimes when life gets intense, training sessions get equally intense. Can really be hard to step away for a few days lol

Sometimes I don't step away to rest. I'll go to the gym see the sights smell the smells say hi to some of the other gym rats and hit the sauna. Keeps my mind in the game even when my body says it needs a rest FWIW

I've posted in my log many times that motion creates motion. at least half the time when I go in I'm exhausted already from normal work stuff. But I know if I stick to my routines that eventually I go from "I would rather be on the couch" to "hey maybe I have a PR In me". I can't tell you how many times I said I'd go in and just hit some low weight easy 2 x 10 stuff and next thing I know I'm asking for a spot

 

[lanky]

i have actually had bloodwork on high dose epi and my estradiol was within normal range

 

[Smont]

It could be epiandro, it's a possibility, but I do not believe epiandro can crash your estrogen or even lower it to any significant degree. I know several people who have use double or triple the dose you're using including myself. It's effects on DHT levels are minor, Ive never seen anything on bloods showing it to lower estrogen to any significant degree if at all. Most ppl report higher libido and energy on epiandro, The sarms in general don't have effects on DHT or estrogen so we can probably count those out. But then again yk-11 is a Steroidal sarms. (Fun fact, most anabolic steroids are steroidal sarms by definition) Joints could be sore from training (or age, I'm 41 in my joints just hurt now sometimes , arthritis probably for me lol). All anabolics can also negatively affect libido. Yk11 has a 19 nor backbone, that could potentially have a negative effect on libido and it also has reports of sore joints and tendons.

Without blood work we're all just playing a giant guessing game here.

Bumping test to 300-400 may help (if low estrogen is actually the problem)

And you do have some high estrogen sides. Low estrogen and high estrogen have similar side effects, not on gyno, but both low and high estrogen can cause acne, lathergy and ED or loss of libido.

Seeing how your not taking anything really toxic and your not on massive doses that require short runs and all kinds of support supps, I'd drop everything but testosterone, wait till everything normalizes and reintroduce everything 1 at a time starting with whatever compound you think is the most likely culprit.(In your case Epiandro, then yk 11, then rad)

 

[kladd]

It could be epiandro, it's a possibility, but I do not believe epiandro can crash your estrogen or even lower it to any significant degree. I know several people who have use double or triple the dose you're using including myself. It's effects on DHT levels are minor, Ive never seen anything on bloods showing it to lower estrogen to any significant degree if at all. Most ppl report higher libido and energy on epiandro, The sarms in general don't have effects on DHT or estrogen so we can probably count those out. But then again yk-11 is a Steroidal sarms. (Fun fact, most anabolic steroids are steroidal sarms by definition) Joints could be sore from training (or age, I'm 41 in my joints just hurt now sometimes , arthritis probably for me lol). All anabolics can also negatively affect libido. Yk11 has a 19 nor backbone, that could potentially have a negative effect on libido and it also has reports of sore joints and tendons.

Without blood work we're all just playing a giant guessing game here.

Bumping test to 300-400 may help (if low estrogen is actually the problem)

And you do have some high estrogen sides. Low estrogen and high estrogen have similar side effects, not on gyno, but both low and high estrogen can cause acne, lathergy and ED or loss of libido.

Seeing how your not taking anything really toxic and your not on massive doses that require short runs and all kinds of support supps, I'd drop everything but testosterone, wait till everything normalizes and reintroduce everything 1 at a time starting with whatever compound you think is the most likely culprit.(In your case Epiandro, then yk 11, then rad)

Part of me was hoping that it wasn’t the combination of compounds was wearing me down lol, always knew in the back of my head that it was a high possibility. Most likely course of action at this point is to stay on test, either at regular dose or even upping just a little to say 300ish, and continuing the rad140 only. I’ve had good luck in the past on rad, and I feel like it is the least likely culprit of the fatigue. I do take CEL cycle support, and have astragalus and Tudca as well, so I should be fine there. I have more YK11, and may throw it in a couple weeks at the end of cycle. Help to finish strong and give me a chance to see if reintroducing it brings any of the sides back in. Will save the epi for another time, try it solo and see if sides happen, or give to a fellow gym rat lol.

A little update, I took a 5mg sublingual preg and a 50mg DHEA capsule last night when they came in, and again this morning. I absolutely slept much better than I have been the past few weeks. May just be placebo, but it was a noticeable improvement and this morning I feel a little bit less fatigued/lethargic. I’ve only taken 300mg epi yesterday/today, so could be the lower dose as well. Overall feels like my hormones were just very unbalanced, so I’m hoping to get some more feedback tonight and tomorrow, will try one more day of DHEA and preg, and hoping for a strong start for the gym Monday. Likely not going to take anymore epi.