Insomniacs Unite

GreenMachineX

GreenMachineX

Well-known member
I’m in the middle of another phase of terminal insomnia (waking up too early). Fitbit says I get 4.5-5.5 hours sleep. I was doing ok when I was getting 6.5 hours, but something changed this past week and it’s gotten worse. Currently taking 3mg lunesta and do all the right sleep hygiene stuff. The lunesta helps at least make those hours I get highly quality. This has been going on and off for years.

Anyone else have poor sleep even after doing all the sleep hygiene tricks? What’s worked for you? What hasn’t? Has anyone just accepted this is our life now?
 
honestly once I hit 40+ my sleep length has gone from 9-6 to 10-4 and I feel fine with some good stims. I get roughly 1.5 deep sleep and then about equal parts rem and light per my tracker. Even when i can sleep in, i cant. I have tried alot of whats out there also and for me it is what it is
 
littlrook said:
honestly once I hit 40+ my sleep length has gone from 9-6 to 10-4 and I feel fine with some good stims. I get roughly 1.5 deep sleep and then about equal parts rem and light per my tracker. Even when i can sleep in, i cant. I have tried alot of whats out there also and for me it is what it is
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Do you take anything at all?
 
I can't get more than 5 hours at a time now. Annoying.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Can you feel the sleep deficit, or do you manage well ?
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Yeah I feel it. It sucks. I catch up on weekends with naps. Magnessium helps but I still can't ever get over 5 hours straight. So I'll wake up, sit there for 2 hours, do some work or something then fall asleep for another 2.
 
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Adding to the above, Melatonin guarantees I will wake up earlier than I want. It works like a charm getting me to sleep, but I will always certainly wake up in 3-4 hours after I take it.
 
Admin said:
Yeah I feel it. It sucks. I catch up on weekends with naps. Magnessium helps but I still can't ever get over 5 hours straight. So I'll wake up, sit there for 2 hours, do some work or something then fall asleep for another 2.
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Wait, so you get 5 hours, up for a couple, then a couple more so totaling 7?
 
Sometimes. In the days I don't, I feel it. But I also used to get and feel like I need 8+ years ago. Now, if I got 6 straight, I would be good. I definitely need less now that I'm older.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Do you take anything at all?
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I have tried a few medications for depression/ sleep but those just knock me out like I don't remember falling asleep and I just wake up a few hours later. They don't increase the amount of sleep I actually get just how fast I am out if that makes sense. Normally right now my go to is magnesium/ glycine about 30min before bed
 
For me it was 100% stress and routine. Now that we have a great routine the struggle is actually breaking it. Even on a Friday/Saturday, staying up past 9 is a real challenge because I am waking up between 5-6am on the weekends naturally with 8hrs of sleep. My alarm clock goes of at 4:30am and by 8pm I'm pretty tired after commuting, gym, work, etc. if I don't feel completely sleepy, I'll pop a melatonin gummy around 8 or 8:15 and sit on the couch with my wife for a short sitcom or something then typically crash out pretty fast when I get to bed. But the evening routine is very consistent and I think that's the biggest factor for me. consistency, the body knows when its supposed to go up and I'm in bed at the same time every night. It took me about a year of struggling in 2016 to get that real good consistency to translate over to good sleep.

Admin said:
Adding to the above, Melatonin guarantees I will wake up earlier than I want. It works like a charm getting me to sleep, but I will always certainly wake up in 3-4 hours after I take it.
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I'm the opposite, I have to make sure I don't abuse melatonin cause if I take 2 then I am still super groggy when I'm trying to get out of bed.
 
Admin said:
Adding to the above, Melatonin guarantees I will wake up earlier than I want. It works like a charm getting me to sleep, but I will always certainly wake up in 3-4 hours after I take it.
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Same here, and it gives me a restless leg type feeling. Never again.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I’m in the middle of another phase of terminal insomnia (waking up too early). Fitbit says I get 4.5-5.5 hours sleep. I was doing ok when I was getting 6.5 hours, but something changed this past week and it’s gotten worse. Currently taking 3mg lunesta and do all the right sleep hygiene stuff. The lunesta helps at least make those hours I get highly quality. This has been going on and off for years.

Anyone else have poor sleep even after doing all the sleep hygiene tricks? What’s worked for you? What hasn’t? Has anyone just accepted this is our life now?
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I’m a shift worker so my sleep schedule gets f*cked on the regular from that, so kinda different since it’s from external sources instead of internal. I’ll catch up on sleep through naps, but in return, my sleep at night suffers and it’s hard for me to sleep/stay asleep. Zero screen time of any sort 2-3 hours before bed (kinda sucks I know) and making sure I have plenty of energy expenditure during the day, especially outside are the biggest factors that have helped me.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I’m in the middle of another phase of terminal insomnia (waking up too early). Fitbit says I get 4.5-5.5 hours sleep. I was doing ok when I was getting 6.5 hours, but something changed this past week and it’s gotten worse. Currently taking 3mg lunesta and do all the right sleep hygiene stuff. The lunesta helps at least make those hours I get highly quality. This has been going on and off for years.

Anyone else have poor sleep even after doing all the sleep hygiene tricks? What’s worked for you? What hasn’t? Has anyone just accepted this is our life now?
Click to expand...
I tend to suffer from these types of sleep disturbances from time to time as well. At times I would get up for an hour or two before attempting to go back to sleep for an hour or two if possible before my alarm. This wasn't foolproof but it beat tossing and turning for 3-4 hours. Lately I've been having decent success using Healthy Gut Be Serene topical in the middle of the evening if I wake up after 3-4 hours and feel like I won't have success getting back to sleep. I find that 1 pump of this product applied to my wrists and temples typically calms my mind and allows me to drift off again, but this hasn't been 100% successful for me. I'll eventually move up to a full dose of 2 pumps of this product to test on times where a single pump doesn't do the trick. I've occasionally had success with a small amount of sublingual melatonin (0.5-1 mg or so) if there is sufficient time before I need to wake up again. I keep these both at my bedside so that I don't need to head down to the main floor of our house to dig through my supplement cabinet and expose myself to an excess of light.

Do you find that Lunesta is habit forming for yourself? I use an the older medication Zopiclone to help me to transition from nights to days, and I find that if I take it on back to back nights I'm nearly dependent on it to get to sleep by that point.
 
max silver said:
I tend to suffer from these types of sleep disturbances from time to time as well. At times I would get up for an hour or two before attempting to go back to sleep for an hour or two if possible before my alarm. This wasn't foolproof but it beat tossing and turning for 3-4 hours. Lately I've been having decent success using Healthy Gut Be Serene topical in the middle of the evening if I wake up after 3-4 hours and feel like I won't have success getting back to sleep. I find that 1 pump of this product applied to my wrists and temples typically calms my mind and allows me to drift off again, but this hasn't been 100% successful for me. I'll eventually move up to a full dose of 2 pumps of this product to test on times where a single pump doesn't do the trick. I've occasionally had success with a small amount of sublingual melatonin (0.5-1 mg or so) if there is sufficient time before I need to wake up again. I keep these both at my bedside so that I don't need to head down to the main floor of our house to dig through my supplement cabinet and expose myself to an excess of light.

Do you find that Lunesta is habit forming for yourself? I use an the older medication Zopiclone to help me to transition from nights to days, and I find that if I take it on back to back nights I'm nearly dependent on it to get to sleep by that point.
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When I first started taking it, I only used it twice per week, but the sleep I was getting in between was bad also, so I decided just to go on every day. In 2 years, I’ve only taken a couple days off and my sleep wasn’t too good those nights, but I’ve definitely had worse. I’ve had almost no loss of efficacy. When I’m in a good place, I cut it down to 1-1.5mg at night. But I made the decision I’ll just be on it forever.
 
GreenMachineX said:
When I first started taking it, I only used it twice per week, but the sleep I was getting in between was bad also, so I decided just to go on every day. In 2 years, I’ve only taken a couple days off and my sleep wasn’t too good those nights, but I’ve definitely had worse. I’ve had almost no loss of efficacy. When I’m in a good place, I cut it down to 1-1.5mg at night. But I made the decision I’ll just be on it forever.
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How do you find the day after effects to be with Lunesta? With Zopiclone I only need half of the full 7.5 mg dose when I use it, but I find that I experience a hangover effect for approximately 14 hours after taking the drug the prior evening.
 
max silver said:
How do you find the day after effects to be with Lunesta? With Zopiclone I only need half of the full 7.5 mg dose when I use it, but I find that I experience a hangover effect for approximately 14 hours after taking the drug the prior evening.
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What hangover effects do you notice?

I don’t really notice much the next day other than the first couple hours maybe. There might be a decrease in libido and possibly motivation, but the effect is minimal.
 
In case anyone is interested, here is my current sleep oriented stack:

Creatine Monohydrate - 5 grams
Creatine HCL - 750 Mg
Glycine - 3 to 4 Grams
Taurine - 2 Grams
Glutamine - 5 to 10 Grams
Citrulline - 3 Grams
L-Theanine - 200 Mg
Magnesium Glycinate - 240 Mg
TMG - 1.5 Grams

For me, over the past few weeks of use - I have seen noticeable results. There is some synergism between a few of the ingredients, and I believe it has significantly lessened cortisol spikes which are common in older dudes.
 
Beau said:
In case anyone is interested, here is my current sleep oriented stack:

Creatine Monohydrate - 5 grams
Creatine HCL - 750 Mg
Glycine - 3 to 4 Grams
Taurine - 2 Grams
Glutamine - 5 to 10 Grams
Citrulline - 3 Grams
L-Theanine - 200 Mg
Magnesium Glycinate - 240 Mg
TMG - 1.5 Grams

For me, over the past few weeks of use - I have seen noticeable results. There is some synergism between a few of the ingredients, and I believe it has significantly lessened cortisol spikes which are common in older dudes.
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I'm using most of those things right now, not for the purposes that you are but I don't seem to get anything beneficial out of them for sleep. The only thing I'm not using on your list is glycine and TMG? I'm not sure what TMG is.

Edit: I do notice L-Theanine gives me a calming effect if I combine it with other things that effect gaba and dopamine. Sometimes I think my dopamine response is just so shot that's why I don't get the benefits that a lot of other people do for many things. But I'm always looking:(
 
GreenMachineX said:
What hangover effects do you notice?

I don’t really notice much the next day other than the first couple hours maybe. There might be a decrease in libido and possibly motivation, but the effect is minimal.
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I notice a lingering grogginess and slight negative effect to my mental faculties. It's not enough to prevent me from driving or anything of that sort but it's still noticeable.
 
max silver said:
I notice a lingering grogginess and slight negative effect to my mental faculties. It's not enough to prevent me from driving or anything of that sort but it's still noticeable.
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That would destroy my mornings, over the past few years my general anxiety has got much worse and I do think lack of sleep plays a big role in why it's progressing, but it's always the worst first thing in the morning when it's time to get out the door and I'm always looking for an excuse to not go to work. I work three jobs Plus a fourth one online and two of my three main jobs I'm self-employed and it's really easy to tell yourself to not work today when you have that option. But when I say it's not laziness, I truly mean it has nothing to do with being lazy I'm sure over the years lots of you have seen the ridiculous hours I used to work and all the hours I'm putting into the gym and everything else, lazy isn't me. But anxiety is starting to make me lazy in a sense I'm rambling down the rabbit hole here I think we're talking about sleep medications 😂😂😂.

I was just connecting the dots between the two in my head. Paralyzing myself buy over analyzing everything lol
 
Admin said:
Adding to the above, Melatonin guarantees I will wake up earlier than I want. It works like a charm getting me to sleep, but I will always certainly wake up in 3-4 hours after I take it.
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If memory serves me right, it's naturally released throughout the sleep cycle. So taking it can put you to sleep and keep you there for a while, but once it wears off your done. There is delayed release available and can vouch for this working when I did take it. I personally won't take it anymore because of the serotonin/ dopamine loopback. That, and it's suppressive.
 
subweevil said:
If memory serves me right, it's naturally released throughout the sleep cycle. So taking it can put you to sleep and keep you there for a while, but once it wears off your done. There is delayed release available and can vouch for this working when I did take it. I personally won't take it anymore because of the serotonin/ dopamine loopback. That, and it's suppressive.
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What is the dopamine serotonin loop back ?
 
Smont said:
I'm using most of those things right now, not for the purposes that you are but I don't seem to get anything beneficial out of them for sleep. The only thing I'm not using on your list is glycine and TMG? I'm not sure what TMG is.

Edit: I do notice L-Theanine gives me a calming effect if I combine it with other things that effect gaba and dopamine. Sometimes I think my dopamine response is just so shot that's why I don't get the benefits that a lot of other people do for many things. But I'm always looking:(
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TMG is Trimethylglycine, also known as betaine anhydrous
 
Diary of a CEO just had a sleep doctor on. I watched the whole thing, loved it. @GreenMachineX, I'm not sure he says anything that would directly get you to go back to sleep, but I'm sure there are some things you could take away from it. I would recommend this to anyone that is interested in improving their sleep.


I take Diphenhydramine HCL 2-3 times a week to help me stay asleep. I always wake up 2x a night, but with this I wake up once a night. Unfortunately, the sleep doctor said it can cause Alzheimer's with regular use. Fck me. I guess I'll use it once a week now.

Another thing that jumped out to me was he did NOT recommend Melatonin for anyone especially kids. Exceptions are night shift workers, jet lag, and people over 50 as Melatonin production can decrease as we age.
 
I live in Canada and my sleep can really suck in the winter and get off the rails very easily. Been fighting this for over 40 years. The one thing that has really helped is a good SAD light for about 20 minutes about 3 hours before bed. That and having less caffeine in the winter (like that’s ever gonna happen lol). For supplements, I take a B complex 50, B5, Magnesium, KSM 66 about an hour or two before bed and then ZMA and 100mg Trazadone at bed At 58 and still powerlifting, I take 400mg Advil and 500mg Tylenol a few evenings a week. This really helps calm things down. Going for a tan a few times in January to mid February helps. I usually go South for a week and the impact to sleep is very positive in the couple of weeks after.
 
botk1161 said:
I live in Canada and my sleep can really suck in the winter and get off the rails very easily. Been fighting this for over 40 years. The one thing that has really helped is a good SAD light for about 20 minutes about 3 hours before bed. That and having less caffeine in the winter (like that’s ever gonna happen lol). For supplements, I take a B complex 50, B5, Magnesium, KSM 66 about an hour or two before bed and then ZMA and 100mg Trazadone at bed At 58 and still powerlifting, I take 400mg Advil and 500mg Tylenol a few evenings a week. This really helps calm things down. Going for a tan a few times in January to mid February helps. I usually go South for a week and the impact to sleep is very positive in the couple of weeks after.
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Advil and Tylenol help sleep???
 
man for me, some tylenol/ibuprofen helps with sleep due to a decrease in pain. The trazadone he takes is what would knock me out with no memory of falling asleep
 
littlrook said:
man for me, some tylenol/ibuprofen helps with sleep due to a decrease in pain. The trazadone he takes is what would knock me out with no memory of falling asleep
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Trazadone is pretty light weight - especially at 100mg. I can stay up for hours after I take it - if the situation calls for it. It is given to people during waking hours for mild to mid level anxiety, but usually at not more than 50mg.
 
botk1161 said:
Trazadone is pretty light weight - especially at 100mg. I can stay up for hours after I take it - if the situation calls for it. It is given to people during waking hours for mild to mid level anxiety, but usually at not more than 50mg.
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I’ve tried over 10 different sleep meds and most are pretty lightweight, like any benzo, gabapentin, mirtazapine, etc.

Only one has ever blown me away was quetiapine. If you actually wanna get knocked out for 8 hours ask your doctor for a prescription. I couldn’t even go to the bathroom when I was on it because I was too sedated. Can’t have insomnia when you're unconscious. It will completely mess up your sleep architecture though, so be careful with long term use.
 
Cordeen said:
Lactium works best for me.
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I really like Lactium too. It doesn't put me out but helps relax me and get my mind to quiet down and chill out. That's why we use it in Mood Support XT and Sleep Support XT.

Great, overlooked ingredient.
 
Shadowblaze said:
I’ve tried over 10 different sleep meds and most are pretty lightweight, like any benzo, gabapentin, mirtazapine, etc.

Only one has ever blown me away was quetiapine. If you actually wanna get knocked out for 8 hours ask your doctor for a prescription. I couldn’t even go to the bathroom when I was on it because I was too sedated. Can’t have insomnia when you're unconscious. It will completely mess up your sleep architecture though, so be careful with long term use.
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Ahhhh.... Seroquel. I had to look up the brand name. Years ago, I knew people that were prescribed it, and ... Well, for me .... I could take just a little bit of a tablet, and it helped with sleep tremendously. But I wouldn't take more than that, because it wasn't necessary for me .... And it would make me really groggy in the morning.

I may ask my Dr for a prescription...
This week my sleep has been terrible. I have a prior prescription for Hydroxyzine, which I only took a 1/2 tablet of, at bedtime.... But I think I'd be better off with the Seroquel, if he doesn't have any issues prescribing it. He's a great Dr, and does everything he can to help. ... He generally gives me all of the facts, and lets me make the decisions.
 
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Renew1 said:
Ahhhh.... Seroquel. I had to look up the brand name. Years ago, I knew people that were prescribed it, and ... Well, for me .... I could take just a little bit of a tablet, and it helped with sleep tremendously. But I wouldn't take more than that, because it wasn't necessary for me .... And it would make me really groggy in the morning.

I may ask my Dr for a prescription...
This week my sleep has been terrible. I have a prior prescription for Hydroxyzine, which I only took a 1/2 tablet of, at bedtime.... But I think I'd be better off with the Seroquel, if he doesn't have any issues prescribing it. He's a great Dr, and does everything he can to help. ... He generally gives me all of the facts, and lets me make the decisions.
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Yeah it’s truly incredible for helping you get to sleep, but pretty terrible for your health. Increasing your chance of diabetes by ~50%, crushing rem sleep and testosterone, raising prolactin, grogginess in the morning. But man that feeling was unlike anything I’ve ever done, my eyelids felt so heavy.

I took it for a few years, I used to have severe insomnia. Now it’s been 5 years and I’m taking 3 sleep medications at once (at least that’s down from 5) and have a pretty severe dependence. When tracking my sleep I realize how genuinely terrible this is for my health. Even if I get 8h of sleep, about 5h of that will be deep sleep, 2.5h of light sleep and 30 mins of rem. But that’s because I’m so sedated I won’t move much in my sleep and my sleep architecture is all out of whack.
I’m all foggy during the day because of rem deprivation.

I’m gonna make a plan to start quitting them and replacing them with natural supplements. But I need to be pretty significantly sedated in order to fall asleep since I have such a strong dependence on that feeling I can’t fall asleep without it.
 

Shadowblaze said:
Yeah it’s truly incredible for helping you get to sleep, but pretty terrible for your health. Increasing your chance of diabetes by ~50%, crushing rem sleep and testosterone, raising prolactin, grogginess in the morning. But man that feeling was unlike anything I’ve ever done, my eyelids felt so heavy.

I took it for a few years, I used to have severe insomnia. Now it’s been 5 years and I’m taking 3 sleep medications at once (at least that’s down from 5) and have a pretty severe dependence. When tracking my sleep I realize how genuinely terrible this is for my health. Even if I get 8h of sleep, about 5h of that will be deep sleep, 2.5h of light sleep and 30 mins of rem. But that’s because I’m so sedated I won’t move much in my sleep and my sleep architecture is all out of whack.
I’m all foggy during the day because of rem deprivation.

I’m gonna make a plan to start quitting them and replacing them with natural supplements. But I need to be pretty significantly sedated in order to fall asleep since I have such a strong dependence on that feeling I can’t fall asleep without it.
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Mmm..... I'll have to look into the health concerns ...
 
Shadowblaze said:
Yeah it’s truly incredible for helping you get to sleep, but pretty terrible for your health. Increasing your chance of diabetes by ~50%, crushing rem sleep and testosterone, raising prolactin, grogginess in the morning. But man that feeling was unlike anything I’ve ever done, my eyelids felt so heavy.

I took it for a few years, I used to have severe insomnia. Now it’s been 5 years and I’m taking 3 sleep medications at once (at least that’s down from 5) and have a pretty severe dependence. When tracking my sleep I realize how genuinely terrible this is for my health. Even if I get 8h of sleep, about 5h of that will be deep sleep, 2.5h of light sleep and 30 mins of rem. But that’s because I’m so sedated I won’t move much in my sleep and my sleep architecture is all out of whack.
I’m all foggy during the day because of rem deprivation.

I’m gonna make a plan to start quitting them and replacing them with natural supplements. But I need to be pretty significantly sedated in order to fall asleep since I have such a strong dependence on that feeling I can’t fall asleep without it.
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What 3 medications do you take now? All 3 at once?

Here I am…up at 3am again.
 
Renew1 said:
Ahhhh.... Seroquel. I had to look up the brand name. Years ago, I knew people that were prescribed it, and ... Well, for me .... I could take just a little bit of a tablet, and it helped with sleep tremendously. But I wouldn't take more than that, because it wasn't necessary for me .... And it would make me really groggy in the morning.

I may ask my Dr for a prescription...
This week my sleep has been terrible. I have a prior prescription for Hydroxyzine, which I only took a 1/2 tablet of, at bedtime.... But I think I'd be better off with the Seroquel, if he doesn't have any issues prescribing it. He's a great Dr, and does everything he can to help. ... He generally gives me all of the facts, and lets me make the decisions.
Click to expand...
Years ago I had someone give me 2 Seroquel that sat in my cars cup holder for like a year and a half before I finally threw them in the garbage. Was too scared to take them. I was drinking a lot at this time and I was worried I was going to take a Seroquel and never wake back up lol
 
I used to have insomnia, my whole life.

Then I had kids, I’m so tired by bed time it actually cured my insomnia 😂
 
Smont said:
Years ago I had someone give me 2 Seroquel that sat in my cars cup holder for like a year and a half before I finally threw them in the garbage. Was too scared to take them. I was drinking a lot at this time and I was worried I was going to take a Seroquel and never wake back up lol
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Among other things, they give Seroquel to people with night terrors. The result is no memory of sleep activity. The side effects are crazy though. Those people in psych wards drooling out of the side of the mouth are on high doses of Seroquel 100%. A dr prescribed it to me for neuro pain and the stuff turned my brain and metabolism off and made me want to eat everything. I put on 10lbs in a week. And that was an ultra low dose. Dark ages sh$t.
 
botk1161 said:
Been fighting this for over 40 years. The one thing that has really helped is a good SAD light for about 20 minutes about 3 hours before bed.
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I have that red light thread I started a couple months ago and have been using the H300 redlight since Christmas, it's been crazy good for me this winter in terms of better mood etc. I have historically always been hammered by SAD, but the RLT + DHEA from Steve's XPG line has been a fantastic solution for me.
 
GreenMachineX said:
What 3 medications do you take now? All 3 at once?

Here I am…up at 3am again.
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Lots of nights I wake up around 3am. I noticed if I wake up the first time before 3:00 a.m. I can go back to sleep and make it till about 5:00 in the morning but if my first wake up is 3:00 a.m. or later I can't fall back asleep. I just kind of nod in and out repeatedly and toss and turn.

There's something about waking up at 3:00 a.m. and that's the definitive cut off for me
 
botk1161 said:
Among other things, they give Seroquel to people with night terrors. The result is no memory of sleep activity. The side effects are crazy though. Those people in psych wards drooling out of the side of the mouth are on high doses of Seroquel 100%. A dr prescribed it to me for neuro pain and the stuff turned my brain and metabolism off and made me want to eat everything. I put on 10lbs in a week. And that was an ultra low dose. Dark ages sh$t.
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Oh, forget that lol
 
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