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Donald Trump running for president

ax1 said:
But really, the creators of it need to be at least audited and have better checks and balances. The system is 23 trillion dollars in debt both government and corporate and its really a dangerous time and everybodies life savings is raped from them every time they print it. Its a con job. You only end up oppressing the poor and middle class.
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Again, inflation is natural, wage stagnation is not.
 
justhere4comm said:
You know what we should do? Print some more fcukin money! Get it to the poor and middle class. Fcuk the rich.
$6500 per person. Do it. They'll spend it on what they need and keep business in business! The rich just hoard their money and hide it in collectible sh*t. They don't trickle down anything but sh*t and p*ss.
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Correct and that currency will end up representing currently untapped economic resources.
 
justhere4comm said:
You know what we should do? Print some more fcukin money! Get it to the poor and middle class. Fcuk the rich.
$6500 per person. Do it. They'll spend it on what they need and keep business in business! The rich just hoard their money and hide it in collectible sh*t. They don't trickle down anything but sh*t and p*ss.
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A slice of pizza will end up being $100 and a one bedroom apartment will rent for $10,000.

People will end up like the Native Americans, poor as shyt except for the ones not labeled by the government as official who do really well.
 
nostrum420 said:
Again, inflation is natural, wage stagnation is not.
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Its not natural at all, its irresponsibly fabricated by the printing press and policy makers.

Free markets are natural, and if you use gold and silver as real currency the free markets will naturally dictate its value.

Printing = Synthol Oil

Gold/Silver = Protein
 
ax1 said:
A slice of pizza will end up being $100 and a one bedroom apartment will rent for $10,000.

People will end up like the Native Americans, poor as shyt except for the ones not labeled by the government as official who do really well.
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Again, that phenomenon has litterally never happened.
 
ax1 said:
Its not natural at all, its irresponsibly fabricated by the printing press and policy makers.

Free markets are natural, and if you use gold and silver as real currency the free markets will naturally dictate its value.

Printing = Synthol Oil

Gold/Silver = Protein
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You have to print more currency as you have more wealth circulating in a given market. If there are more dollars in the market, there are more to go into your paychecks and savings accounts. Printing money isn't the problem, monopolies stagnating your wages because they've captured the gov, is the problem.
 
nostrum420 said:
You have to print more currency as you have more wealth circulating in a given market. If there are more dollars in the market, there are more to go into your paychecks and savings accounts. Printing money isn't the problem, monopolies stagnating your wages because they've captured the gov, is the problem.
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Your reducing wealth because your creating inflation, the more there is the less there is worth. Your paychecks are less and less every year, minumum wages need to go up and up every year. I dont see any evidence of what your talking about.
 
ax1 said:
Of course it has, it happens every day.
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The hyper inflation you described has never been caused by public disbursement of currency. Every currency suffers some level of inflation but in a normal system, wages are subject to the same inflation and so you don't get a net loss of wealth for the average citizen.
 
nostrum420 said:
Don't label me man, I'm striving for something way better than all that.
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Oh, ok thats good then. Sorry.

This debate is reminding me of various keysian vs austrian school debates Ive seen over the years, lol

I always though currency debates are a fun watch.
 
ax1 said:
Your reducing wealth because your creating inflation, the more there is the less there is worth. Your paychecks are less and less every year, minumum wages need to go up and up every year. I dont see any evidence of what your talking about.
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You made my point for me again.
Min wages do need to go up every year but haven't in 40 years...
 
nostrum420 said:
The hyper inflation you described has never been caused by public disbursement of currency. Every currency suffers some level of inflation but in a normal system, wages are subject to the same inflation and so you don't get a net loss of wealth for the average citizen.
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So if you saved $50,000 in 2008 in your bank account, your claiming I have the same purchasing power right?
 
nostrum420 said:
You made my point for me again.
Min wages do need to go up every year but haven't in 40 years...
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They did and still are in NY, and the price of everything went up partially because of it. Its been counterproductive.
 
ax1 said:
So if you saved $50,000 in 2008 in your bank account, your claiming I have the same purchasing power right?
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No, I've been saying it's normal for that figure to have less buying power but if it were a matter of adding currency to the market, that would mean there was more to put into that savings account and it would be higher than it was in '08.
 
nostrum420 said:
You made my point for me again.
Min wages do need to go up every year but haven't in 40 years...
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So lets say minimum wage is $100 an hour. How much is a Pizzeria owner need to charge for a slice to make ends meet? And how this all could go wrong everywhere else including housing?

Everything will skyrocket through the roof if we did that tomorrow.
 
nostrum420 said:
No, I've been saying it's normal for that figure to have less buying power but if it were a matter of adding currency to the market, that would mean there was more to put into that savings account and it would be higher than it was in '08.
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They can add more to the market but I dont see how thats going increase how much I put in at that time.

If you want to put more into your savings account you need to get a better job and/or work more.
 
ax1 said:
So lets say minimum wage is $100 an hour. How much is a Pizzeria owner need to charge for a slice to make ends meet? And how this all could go wrong everywhere else including housing?

Everything will skyrocket through the roof if we did that tomorrow.
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You're employing reductio ad absurdum. No one's saying a min wage of 100 dollars an hour.
 
ax1 said:
They can add more to the market but I dont see how thats going increase how much I put in at that time.

If you want to put more into your savings account you need to get a better job and/or work more.
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Yes and when there's more currency in the system there's more to pay those people who get a better job and more to pay OT hours.
 
nostrum420 said:
Bold claim... proof?
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If you run a store and your forced by law to give everybody a raise somebody has to pay for it, and its going directly to the consumer.

There is a point where you need to raise prices, or lay off workers or shut business as a whole because its not profitable or the incentives are no longer there to continue. Or just replace humans with as many robots as possible because its not cost effective to buy humans to work for you.
 
ax1 said:
If you run a store and your forced by law to give everybody a raise somebody has to pay for it, and its going directly to the consumer.

There is a point where you need to raise prices, or lay off workers or shut business as a whole because its not profitable or the incentives are no longer there to continue. Or just replace humans with as many robots as possible because its not cost effective to buy humans to work for you.
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If you run a store, your overhead goes up every year regardless of min wage laws and you're always going to need to increase prices at some point.
 
nostrum420 said:
Yes and when there's more currency in the system there's more to pay those people who get a better job and more to pay OT hours.
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Well, if you want to pay people more the business needs to be more profitable, and if you keep putting money in the system your devaluing and you usually end up with less money for both owner and worker as purchasing power decreases.
 
nostrum420 said:
You have to print more currency as you have more wealth circulating in a given market. If there are more dollars in the market, there are more to go into your paychecks and savings accounts. Printing money isn't the problem, monopolies stagnating your wages because they've captured the gov, is the problem.
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To be fair, in theory at least, if you suddenly print a ton of money, any savings that the middle class has does become at least somewhat devalued, no?
 
nostrum420 said:
Those price increases were going to happen whether the min wage went up or not.
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But we have to consider that automation and/or other means to potentially reduce the need for (higher paid) workers may be hastened/increased with much higher minimum wages, right? Be it more self-checkouts at grocery stores, kiosks to order at restaurants, apps to order online that avoid waiting in line and/or give a little discount, etc. Granted, things like this happen regardless, but I can see them being implemented more if minimum wage suddenly nearly doubles.
 
nostrum420 said:
I think he was suggesting a one time stimulus of $6500.
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Well, better that ... the money was printed and they gave almost all of it to the rich and wealthy giving people the crumbs.

nostrum420 said:
If you run a store, your overhead goes up every year regardless of min wage laws and you're always going to need to increase prices at some point.
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You want to minimize that...and you do want to give your workers "natural" raises as its the right thing to do if they are productive for you.

I gotta step out and go to the locker room then the gym which these days = my bathroom to pee and then downstairs to my basement gym lol.

Your good dude, please dont mind if I come across as intense here time to time, I actually like you.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
But we have to consider that automation and/or other means to potentially reduce the need for (higher paid) workers may be hastened/increased with much higher minimum wages, right? Be it more self-checkouts at grocery stores, kiosks to order at restaurants, apps to order online that avoid waiting in line and/or give a little discount, etc. Granted, things like this happen regardless, but I can see them being implemented more if minimum wage suddenly nearly doubles.
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It certainly gives business owners the incentives to go that direction asap.
 
ax1 said:
Well, if you want to pay people more the business needs to be more profitable, and if you keep putting money in the system your devaluing and you usually end up with less money for both owner and worker as purchasing power decreases.
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Yes and typically when money is printed it's given to businesses first so they can use it to invest in some new venture that will then make that business more profitable. The issue is that those businesses are hording the extra profits instead of sharing them with the workers.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
To be fair, in theory at least, if you suddenly print a ton of money, any savings that the middle class has does become at least somewhat devalued, no?
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It does at the moment of disbursing that cash but then after that there's more cash in the system to put into those accounts so ultimately they should increase in terms of the total dollars in those accounts even though each individual dollar has slightly less buying power in some markets.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
But we have to consider that automation and/or other means to potentially reduce the need for (higher paid) workers may be hastened/increased with much higher minimum wages, right? Be it more self-checkouts at grocery stores, kiosks to order at restaurants, apps to order online that avoid waiting in line and/or give a little discount, etc. Granted, things like this happen regardless, but I can see them being implemented more if minimum wage suddenly nearly doubles.
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Labor is always one of the biggest pieces of overhead and businesses are always striving to reduce the need for it. They're bluffing. It's a story pushed by big business because increasing wages would have to come out of shareholder pay which is the ultimate sin for a publicly traded company. They've been trying to automate all of our jobs away for decades and if they could really do it, those automatic coffee machines from the mid 90s would be everywhere and Starbucks wouldn't be one of the countries top employers.
 
ax1 said:
Well, better that ... the money was printed and they gave almost all of it to the rich and wealthy giving people the crumbs.



You want to minimize that...and you do want to give your workers "natural" raises as its the right thing to do if they are productive for you.

I gotta step out and go to the locker room then the gym which these days = my bathroom to pee and then downstairs to my basement gym lol.

Your good dude, please dont mind if I come across as intense here time to time, I actually like you.
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No, I like a spirited debate.
 
nostrum420 said:
It does at the moment of disbursing that cash but then after that there's more cash in the system to put into those accounts so ultimately they should increase in terms of the total dollars in those accounts even though each individual dollar has slightly less buying power in some markets.
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That would depend entirely on what the newly printed cash is used for, no? Assuming most of it goes to the middle class in question, yes, but if it ends up being wasted and/or given to big corporations like the US seems to love to do, then I don’t think so. “More cash in the system” doesn’t inherently mean more cash given to the people that need it.
 
nostrum420 said:
Labor is always one of the biggest pieces of overhead and businesses are always striving to reduce the need for it. They're bluffing. It's a story pushed by big business because increasing wages would have to come out of shareholder pay which is the ultimate sin for a publicly traded company. They've been trying to automate all of our jobs away for decades and if they could really do it, those automatic coffee machines from the mid 90s would be everywhere and Starbucks wouldn't be one of the countries top employers.
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I see more and more automation every year. More at McDonalds, Chipotle, BurgerFi, etc. I never said it’s feasible everywhere, but it is becoming more common. That said, you do have a point that once it’s more feasible, I’m sure a lot of companies will do it regardless of the minimum wage if it can save any money in the end. But if wages suddenly jumped up, I don’t see how it couldn’t at least speed up attempts at this process.
 
nostrum420 said:
It does at the moment of disbursing that cash but then after that there's more cash in the system to put into those accounts so ultimately they should increase in terms of the total dollars in those accounts even though each individual dollar has slightly less buying power in some markets.
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Thats something a little different, thats a loan. Im all for that even if the bank collects fair interest. The con job is printing it out of thin air and "taxing" it through devaluation as its being handed over lowering the purchasing power and also at the additional expense in the devaluation of business owners entire life savings and everybody under them that work for them.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
That would depend entirely on what the newly printed cash is used for, no? Assuming most of it goes to the middle class in question, yes, but if it ends up being wasted and/or given to big corporations like the US seems to love to do, then I don’t think so. “More cash in the system” doesn’t inherently mean more cash given to the people that need it.
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Yeah, should was really the operative word. But that doesn't mean you don't print currency commensurate to the wealth on the market, it means you need to build and maintain market mechanisms that stop too much wealth and currency from stagnating in one part of the market thereby starving other parts.
 
nostrum420 said:
Labor is always one of the biggest pieces of overhead and businesses are always striving to reduce the need for it. They're bluffing. It's a story pushed by big business because increasing wages would have to come out of shareholder pay which is the ultimate sin for a publicly traded company. They've been trying to automate all of our jobs away for decades and if they could really do it, those automatic coffee machines from the mid 90s would be everywhere and Starbucks wouldn't be one of the countries top employers.
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Its not bluffing, its happening and developing with time and modernization.

Also, there is a human value here where people can compete with robotics with services robotics cant replicate. In all, I would hope this would increase the overall quality of services as more people want to stay competitive in a free market to keep their jobs.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I see more and more automation every year. More at McDonalds, Chipotle, BurgerFi, etc. I never said it’s feasible everywhere, but it is becoming more common. That said, you do have a point that once it’s more feasible, I’m sure a lot of companies will do it regardless of the minimum wage if it can save any money in the end. But if wages suddenly jumped up, I don’t see how it couldn’t at least speed up attempts at this process.
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It may create some additional incentives for automation but it's not the "everyone's out of a job" scenario that gets painted. Look at places that have increased min wage, unemployment hasn't spiked in those places, often they tend to have stronger economies than surrounding areas that don't increase wages.

Henry Ford understood this, if you pay your workers enough they give you some of that money back by being able to buy your stuff.
 
ax1 said:
Thats something a little different, thats a loan. Im all for that even if the bank collects fair interest. The con job is printing it out of thin air and "taxing" it through devaluation as its being handed over lowering the purchasing power and also at the additional expense in the devaluation of business owners entire life savings and everybody under them that work for them.
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It's often not a loan, it's quite often a subsidy. Inflation isn't robbing you, stagnant wages are.
 
ax1 said:
Its not bluffing, its happening and developing with time and modernization.

Also, there is a human value here where people can compete with robotics with services robotics cant replicate. In all, I would hope this would increase the overall quality of services as more people want to stay competitive in a free market to keep their jobs.
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The idea that these businesses have the capacity to fire their workforce and automate everything at the drop of a hat if they're forced to pay a living wage, is a bluff. If they could do that they would have already.
 
nostrum420 said:
Yes and typically when money is printed it's given to businesses first so they can use it to invest in some new venture that will then make that business more profitable. The issue is that those businesses are hording the extra profits instead of sharing them with the workers.
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Yes I agree thats how it typically is, just criticizing the way it is.

There is an issue with businesses hording extra profits, but one of the ways to help with this is eliminate minimum wage in its entirety. I have too much work experience to know why that holds so many people back from being productive.
 
nostrum420 said:
The idea that these businesses have the capacity to fire their workforce and automate everything at the drop of a hat if they're forced to pay a living wage, is a bluff. If they could do that they would have already.
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Many are, thats the trend and its a fact. Look how Amazon has stores opening without a single person working in the store. You just pick up the item and walk out. On the other side, the "workforce" needs to develop more and more software people which then in a matter of time many will be replaced with AI.

If the tech was there at the right price you would see 10s of millions of jobs released instantly.

Now realistically there are going to be areas where humans can still compete with robots and thats a positive at least.
 
ax1 said:
Yes I agree thats how it typically is, just criticizing the way it is.

There is an issue with businesses hording extra profits, but one of the ways to help with this is eliminate minimum wage in its entirety. I have too much work experience to know why that holds so many people back from being productive.
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Strongly disagree. Businesses will pay an absolute pittance if you don't set a minimum.
 
ax1 said:
Many are, thats the trend and its a fact. Look how Amazon has stores opening without a single person working in the store. You just pick up the item and walk out. On the other side, the "workforce" needs to develop more and more software people which then in a matter of time many will be replaced with AI.

If the tech was there at the right price you would see 10s of millions of jobs released instantly.

Now realistically there are going to be areas where humans can still compete with robots and thats a positive at least.
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That's what I'm saying; they're already automating as fast as they possibly can and min wage has been stagnant in many areas for a good 30 years or more. Increasing the min wage wouldn't make them automate faster because they're already doing it as fast as they can.
 
nostrum420 said:
Strongly disagree. Businesses will pay an absolute pittance if you don't set a minimum.
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In my 24 years of work experience, the best and highest paying jobs I ever had (besides my personal business) were 2 of them which each had no minimum wage and were paid via production only. Also, those 2 jobs actually had an ambitious workforce and were superiority far more productive than any other minimum job workplace I have worked.

Minimum wage jobs crush productivity and incentives to do better....well there is an personal incentive to pick up skills or go to school and do something better with yourself but people generally like to point the finger away from themselves.
 
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