Prohormones vs real aas

[Chados]

The way you worded it is 3000 seems high for his body weight. If someone told me what you said I would’ve never thought it meant check to make sure you are eating 3000

Well I told him to recalculate to make sure. It is possible but it's extremly rare you have someone at that weight in need of 3k calories.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Superdrol gains last pretty well and you can put on 10lbs in 4 weeks that you keep....along with the strength

You can keep 10 pounds from 4 little weeks...

Or, you can keep 30 from a nice 12-16 month smart planned out cycle. That will stay

I gained 20 lbs on sdrol, lost almost all.

Just my experience

 

[Bintherduntht]

Superdrol gains last pretty well and you can put on 10lbs in 4 weeks that you keep....along with the strength

Do you really think that muscle will permanent?

When it takes months and months and years to gain quality muscle? Sdrol just beefs you up for a month. Your strength will absolutely go down after stopping use. You don't keep permanent strength. You may keep 7. That **** made me gain 20lbs in a month, me and Buddy would run it together. We lost strength and mass.

Just my opinion. But see if your strength is exactly the same when you go off

 

[Chados]

Do you really think that muscle will permanent?

When it takes months and months and years to gain quality muscle? Sdrol just beefs you up for a month. Your strength will absolutely go down after stopping use. You don't keep permanent strength. You may keep 7. That **** made me gain 20lbs in a month, me and Buddy would run it together. We lost strength and mass.

Just my opinion. But see if your strength is exactly the same when you go off

I always gain 10 pounds On a cycle at least, sometimes up to 20 and yeah orals are extremly hard to keep, I think you lose on injectibles too but it seems like you're more aesthetically pleasing after injectibles.

Let's say you gain 20 pounds On both and lose 10, the quality from injectibles will be far better. Some steroids packs on muscle and some more weight. Tren comes to mind , not much of a bulker if you don't eat like a truck but even then you will pack on muscle size that will stay , so even if you lose weight your arms will still be bigger. Now do a dbol cycle and you get big fast but when you fall your size falls with you because it's mostly water. Even a test only cycle will make you keep muscles far better than any oral.

 

[brofessorx]

You are incorrect. Injectable testosterone will only give you longer lasting gains than an oral can not, also according to data based evidence. Orals should be used to jump start a cycle, not an oral only cycle

Its common sense.

How can a 4-8 week cycle of one methylated steroid, or s stack of non methyls, give you better results that are keepable than a12-16 week cycle of steroids?

Before you ask me for the evidence, show me yours first

Without actually spending too much time on this, ( I’ve been in the ped industry since 08’) I’ll just c&p a previous discussion on the subject of cycle length with Patrick Arnold. This is to respond to your assumption of “solidifying gains” and hopefully inform you a bit how aas work.

Brofessor - I've been using Trest (Oral, 100 to 125mg per day from OL) for 11-12 weeks now (will PCT in a weeks time), and the last 3 or so weeks I have felt non-responsive to it and have had a significant libido crash and energy/performance crash with my workouts (I am using Predator's 4AD at 3-4 caps per day as well).
Dosing up Trest to 75mg PreWO seems to just make my heart rate go up and I lose focus.

Any reason as to why something as potent and effective as Trest could tank libido and performance? Weeks 7-8 of the cycle was amazing (sky high libido, strength, muscle pumps etc).
For your info, I am using Aromasin daily in a research chem at 0.5ml (12.5mg equivalent or there abouts).

PCT will be: 20/20/10/10 Nolva, Super PCT, M-Test - and also have 3/4 a bottle of APE by AEN and a full bottle of Rebirth.

Thanks.

this conversation might help you understand what’s going on

Including EQ? Lol

Deca?

EQ is not deca
I would say deca is better suited for longer cycles, though, like EQ.
If that's what you're trying to ask.

I know
I meant deca obviously needs to ran longer than 8 weeks

You guys are talking esters. This has to be taken into account.
You aren't fully "on" until a few weeks into those longer esters.
The fact still remains the same. 6-8 weeks then results slow or stop. Then something will need to change. Giving that rest, diet and training are all on point, one will need to increase the amount of hormone in order to continue seeing progress.

Pat,

It seems most people recommend running test cycles for the standard 12 weeks + as opposed to 8-10 weeks...what benefits does running 12+ weeks provide compared to say 8-10? I think I saw somewhere that you said gains level off after about 8 weeks. Does 12+ weeks help solidify the gains?

I dont think its gonna do anything more at that point then delay the crash

**

I think it would be more likely to solidify the HTPA shutdown as opposed to the gains

**

Is keeping cycle length less merely to aide in HPTA recovery or is there another reason? Also, why do gains seem to stall after so many weeks?

**

the answer to your first question is that exogenous hormones can have negative side effects other than HPTA suppression

the answer to your second question is because you can only grow up until the point where some limiting factor is going to put a halt to it. There could be many limiting factors. Obviously we cant take steroids and gain 8 pounds every two weeks indefinitely. And this is does not necessarily have to do with insensitivity to androgens. If that were going on then one would expect to lose weight after a while instead of maintaining their gains during the rest of the cycle

**

Would hepatoxicity be one of these factors in the case of PHs (just making sure I understand you)?



Is this why blasting and cruising works? You're letting other factors recover while cruising and then eventually blasting to make another gain.

**

the answer to your first question is yes

the answer to your other question is no. apparently you failed to fully understand what i said

**

I believe this is where my reply was short sighted. What types of limiting factors are we talking about here? Metabolic, genetic? Or am I totally off the ball on this one?

**

metabolic, which ultimately is a consequence of your genes of course. these limits are built into your physiology so no amount of blasting or cruising is gonna matter. the only thing you could do is try to address them via some sort of pharmacological intervention i suppose, but you would have to know what you are addressing to begin with

myostatin inhibitors are interesting because they seem to disable the brakes on a whole slew of physiological processes involved in the limitation of muscle growth, some of which may be responsible for the plateau of growth seen after several weeks of AAS use

**

a better way to look at this is to realize that your muscles are a dynamic tissue - with its amino acids always being broken down for energy as well as always being built up via anabolic processes. how large they get is a function of where this balance lies. diet, training, and drugs can all affect this set point.

So adding anabolic steroids will simply reset your muscles to a different balance of anabolic and catabolic processes, leading to a new baseline of muscle mass.

**

That makes sense. So, even though you're resetting the baseline, has there been any research showing that the baseline has a genetic ceiling? I ask because there is always the debate as to whether a bodybuilder is so big because he's taking XYZ drugs. While that may be true to an extent and using the baseline context, is it fair to say that the bodybuilder is able to obtain a higher baseline because he is genetically able to?

**

everything regarding your physiological potential is determined by your genes.

**

Pat,

So if you were on TRT (therefore HTPA recovery is not a concern) and wanted to obtain maximum muscle mass, would you cycle using 8-10 week cycles and then wait an equal amount of time, check blood work (assuming everything is ok), and cycle again?

**

as opposed to what?

**

As opposed to longer 12+ week cycles? This way you can cycle more times per year and hopefully put on more muscle. If gains slow/stop after approximately 8-10 weeks and continuing with the cycle doesn't help keep the gains...then why not stop, give your receptors and body a break, and then cycle again? If this is the best approach, why does it seem everyone advocates for longer cycles, like the standard 12+ weeks.

**

Why continue with a cycle past 8-10 weeks if the gains have stopped? What benefit is there to continue?

**

if you want to put on the most muscle (and dont care about the downsides) then stay on cycle year around. thats what most of the pros do.

**

the benefit is that you will stay at that level. and by manipulating other aspects of your program with diet, training, or different kinds of drugs you can still coax yourself to slowly keep gaining even

by stopping you will lose a good part of your gains and then when you cycle again you pretty much will just end up at the same sticking point. You will have lost a few months where you could have gained a little more

thats why the pros dont go off.

with that said, its a very unhealthy thing to do

To handle you other bit of brolore on aas>ph

Pro hormones are Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. And I’m not taking about superdrol, epistane etc, although those are also AAS, I’m talking even things like dhea, Epi-Andro, etc,
Gains, sides, all of that is dependent on the structure of the 4 carbon steroid hormone as this is what affects binding affinity and the signals sent via the AR,
Gains, side effects, cycles length are all dose dependent.
Are there more cost effective methods of using peds? Of course.
But cost aside, one can dose a ph to testosterone and get the exact same gains as with injecting it. They can also run it for however long they want. Cost effective? Nope. But it isn’t any more dangerous health wise than injectable test.

I recommend learning the chemistry behind aas if you really want to understand what you’re putting into your body.

 

[brofessorx]

I think a lot of you guys are confusing glycogen retention ( and in turn water retention) with muscles gains.
When on steroids glycogen retention goes up tremendously, some steroids effect this more than others, ( superdrol comes to mid)
For every 1 gram of glycogen stored, your body stores 3 grams of water, and this is naturally.

Obviously you’ll have more potential to gain more lean mass on 8 weeks vs 4 weeks, you have an extra 4 weeks.
But the glycogen retention (and water retention) will always be lost after stopping steroids, and hence loss of strength, size, weight.

How long you can safely run an oral 17aa methylated steroid depends on the steroid structure, dosage used, and the person.

 

[Chados]

I always say that extending an oral over 6 weeks is pretty much useless, sometimes even 4 for some compounds. Injectibles you can argue 10 or 12 weeks on test e and I personally feel gains will pretty much stop after 8-9 weeks. You will gain more drastically coming off but it will be easier to slowly gain being on year round. How long the gains will keep going depends a lot on what compound you use. I think most people tend to stay on longer than they really have to and not gaining much but instead harming their body.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Besides comparing injectables to orals, in regards to what you can keep, wouldnt the type of oral make a huge difference though?

Seems like saying "orals are harder to keep" is a bit of a generalization. Specially when in this thread the ones being used as example are mostly dianabol and sd?!

Some of the dry stuff like anavar, masteron, primo... wouldnt the gains from these be a lot easier to keep? So i guess comparing orals vs injectables when the compounds themselves are quite different seem a bit apples to oranges no?

Unless you take oral diana and compare to injectable diana, i guess it would be hard to pin down any conclusion?

Just trying to learn here, not trying to disagree with anyone in particular

 

[Bintherduntht]

Without actually spending too much time on this, ( I’ve been in the ped industry since 08’) I’ll just c&p a previous discussion on the subject of cycle length with Patrick Arnold. This is to respond to your assumption of “solidifying gains” and hopefully inform you a bit how aas work.






To handle you other bit of brolore on aas>ph

Pro hormones are Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. And I’m not taking about superdrol, epistane etc, although those are also AAS, I’m talking even things like dhea, Epi-Andro, etc,
Gains, sides, all of that is dependent on the structure of the 4 carbon steroid hormone as this is what affects binding affinity and the signals sent via the AR,
Gains, side effects, cycles length are all dose dependent.
Are there more cost effective methods of using peds? Of course.
But cost aside, one can dose a ph to testosterone and get the exact same gains as with injecting it. They can also run it for however long they want. Cost effective? Nope. But it isn’t any more dangerous health wise than injectable test.

I recommend learning the chemistry behind aas if you really want to understand what you’re putting into your body.

That was a lot to read. His trest stopped working because its an oral. I've been on test and other injectables, never have I had to up my test. It just keeps working.

And how old are you?

When they came out they were prohormones. I could buy M1T at gnc.

Sdrol was a prohormone, halo, epi, p-mag, max-lmg, trenavar, ment,

They sold stacks of 4 methylated compounds and 2 non methyls....
**** was crazy.

Well I disagree brother! Test strengths your bones, muscles, immune system well being. Its cheap, its versatile, wanna bulk? Take more! It helps your cardiovascular system, heart, libido, wellbeing.

Sdrol I'm not sure strengthens your bones and has all those benefits.

I think orals are icing on the cake. JumpStart, add in middle,

I also believe guys who only take oral cycles are scared to stick a needle in them.

I have never kept more than 50% with an oral cycle. In fact, if you were to stop juicing completely, you would lose the extra muscle! Shazam!

 

[Chados]

Besides comparing injectables to orals, in regards to what you can keep, wouldnt the type of oral make a huge difference though?

Seems like saying "orals are harder to keep" is a bit of a generalization. Specially when in this thread the ones being used as example are mostly dianabol and sd?!

Some of the dry stuff like anavar, masteron, primo... wouldnt the gains from these be a lot easier to keep? So i guess comparing orals vs injectables when the compounds themselves are quite different seem a bit apples to oranges no?

Unless you take oral diana and compare to injectable diana, i guess it would be hard to pin down any conclusion?

Just trying to learn here, not trying to disagree with anyone in particular

Sd is a very dry compound. I guess we tend to talk about the bulkers to compare how much you lose. You won't gain much with anavar alone and it helps more with leaning up.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Without actually spending too much time on this, ( I’ve been in the ped industry since 08’) I’ll just c&p a previous discussion on the subject of cycle length with Patrick Arnold. This is to respond to your assumption of “solidifying gains” and hopefully inform you a bit how aas work.






To handle you other bit of brolore on aas>ph

Pro hormones are Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. And I’m not taking about superdrol, epistane etc, although those are also AAS, I’m talking even things like dhea, Epi-Andro, etc,
Gains, sides, all of that is dependent on the structure of the 4 carbon steroid hormone as this is what affects binding affinity and the signals sent via the AR,
Gains, side effects, cycles length are all dose dependent.
Are there more cost effective methods of using peds? Of course.
But cost aside, one can dose a ph to testosterone and get the exact same gains as with injecting it. They can also run it for however long they want. Cost effective? Nope. But it isn’t any more dangerous health wise than injectable test.

I recommend learning the chemistry behind aas if you really want to understand what you’re putting into your body.

I know what I put in my body lol. That's why I choose not to put strain on my liver and kidneys. Do what you want. Your a ped doc, and I have 7 years personal use, mentor has 25, buddies juice.

Ignorance. Don't assume. I've been on test 3 years straight, get bloods done I'm fine. Orals make me feel like ****. I don't see the use for them other than jump starting, or a dude that can't get real gear

 

[Chados]

Sd is a very dry compound. I guess we tend to talk about the bulkers to compare how much you lose. You won't gain much with anavar alone and it helps more with leaning up. Injectible dianabol will be more effective. The thing with orals is that they act so drastically depending on the compound with strenght and gains but since they act so fast not all of that can be muscles. If you run 12 weeks of test e and 4 week dbol two very estrogenic compounds you have to look at dosage. Let's say we have the same equal amount if that's even possible. The dbol will be faster and give more strenght and potentially give you more size but since it's so wet most of the gains will be lost while with test the body has time to slowly gain and get used to the size I guess.

Now stacking them wont give you an immensly amount of size compared to just using one of you have a good dosage. because if that was possible we would grow like grass. You have to look more from a synergistic standpoint, some compounds goes very well with eachother. More is often less with aas.

 

[Bintherduntht]

That was a lot to read. His trest stopped working because its an oral. I've been on test and other injectables, never have I had to up my test. It just keeps working.

And how old are you?

When they came out they were prohormones. I could buy M1T at gnc.

Sdrol was a prohormone, halo, epi, p-mag, max-lmg, trenavar, ment,

They sold stacks of 4 methylated compounds and 2 non methyls....
**** was crazy.

Well I disagree brother! Test strengths your bones, muscles, immune system well being. Its cheap, its versatile, wanna bulk? Take more! It helps your cardiovascular system, heart, libido, wellbeing.

Sdrol I'm not sure strengthens your bones and has all those benefits.

I think orals are icing on the cake. JumpStart, add in middle,

I also believe guys who only take oral cycles are scared to stick a needle in them.

I have never kept more than 50% with an oral cycle. In fact, if you were to stop juicing completely, you would lose the extra muscle! Shazam!

They were prohormones up until 2014...

Then they turned into steroids.

Dude, that's cuz some dumb **** kids took them too much for too long and killed there livers or ****ed there **** up and mommy whined to police, police kept getting reports it went to congress and there ya go. But for a good 14 years, yes they were prohormones because they have to convert. Not all, but some.

Test doesn't convert to shhyat

 

[Bintherduntht]

Besides comparing injectables to orals, in regards to what you can keep, wouldnt the type of oral make a huge difference though?

Seems like saying "orals are harder to keep" is a bit of a generalization. Specially when in this thread the ones being used as example are mostly dianabol and sd?!

Some of the dry stuff like anavar, masteron, primo... wouldnt the gains from these be a lot easier to keep? So i guess comparing orals vs injectables when the compounds themselves are quite different seem a bit apples to oranges no?

Unless you take oral diana and compare to injectable diana, i guess it would be hard to pin down any conclusion?

Just trying to learn here, not trying to disagree with anyone in particular

When you go off Anavar, do the insane pumps and crazy strength stay?

Steroids make you bigger, faster, stronger.

That's why its natty vs juicer.

I'd say forsure without a doubt, you will never keep 80%, 90% or 100%. You can try!

Why are BBrs alwas huge? Because they are always on. They have too. The body cannot hold all that new muscle without the tools they used to build it.

Ever see pro athletes when they go off? Wrestlers, BBers? Did they keep that size? You set your goals up really high cuz, hey, at least you will get close. Maybe there

 

[Bintherduntht]

Without actually spending too much time on this, ( I’ve been in the ped industry since 08’) I’ll just c&p a previous discussion on the subject of cycle length with Patrick Arnold. This is to respond to your assumption of “solidifying gains” and hopefully inform you a bit how aas work.






To handle you other bit of brolore on aas>ph

Pro hormones are Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. And I’m not taking about superdrol, epistane etc, although those are also AAS, I’m talking even things like dhea, Epi-Andro, etc,
Gains, sides, all of that is dependent on the structure of the 4 carbon steroid hormone as this is what affects binding affinity and the signals sent via the AR,
Gains, side effects, cycles length are all dose dependent.
Are there more cost effective methods of using peds? Of course.
But cost aside, one can dose a ph to testosterone and get the exact same gains as with injecting it. They can also run it for however long they want. Cost effective? Nope. But it isn’t any more dangerous health wise than injectable test.

I recommend learning the chemistry behind aas if you really want to understand what you’re putting into your body.

They were prohormones up until 2014...

Then they turned into steroids.

Dude, that's cuz some dumb **** kids took them too much for too long and killed there livers or ****ed there **** up and mommy whined to police, police kept getting reports it went to congress and there ya go. But for a good 14 years, yes they were prohormones because they have to convert. Not all, but some.

Test doesn't convert to shhyat

 

[Bintherduntht]

I think a lot of you guys are confusing glycogen retention ( and in turn water retention) with muscles gains.
When on steroids glycogen retention goes up tremendously, some steroids effect this more than others, ( superdrol comes to mid)
For every 1 gram of glycogen stored, your body stores 3 grams of water, and this is naturally.

Obviously you’ll have more potential to gain more lean mass on 8 weeks vs 4 weeks, you have an extra 4 weeks.
But the glycogen retention (and water retention) will always be lost after stopping steroids, and hence loss of strength, size, weight.

How long you can safely run an oral 17aa methylated steroid depends on the steroid structure, dosage used, and the person.

I'm retarded I just replied to myself twice..

This was referring to your other post

They were prohormones up until 2014...

Then they turned into steroids.

Dude, that's cuz some dumb **** kids took them too much for too long and killed there livers or ****ed there **** up and mommy whined to police, police kept getting reports it went to congress and there ya go. But for a good 14 years, yes they were prohormones because they have to convert. Not all, but some.

Test doesn't convert to shhyat

 

[franks009]

For what its worth.. 2 years ago i did my first oral cycle, lgd and rad. Started at 170 after pct n all final weight was 184. Last year did lgd and oral and TD trest. After pct n all final weight was 194. At this very moment im sitting at 190 from 2 oral cycles in 2 years. In a week im doin an msten run. I would say the reason i kept all that muscle and weight is because im not a p*ssy and i eat big and lift big. No other natty supplement taken other than creatine n food.

 

[franks009]

If you eat and lift the same u did while on theres no reason u cant maintain the muscle u put on. Obv strength wont be as high but if u lose almost all your gains you aint doin somethin right

 

[brofessorx]

We can have a dick swinging contest all day, you’ve been using gear for seven years. In that short time have you read any literature on steroids?
Julius Vida “androgens and anabolic agents chemistry and pharmcogy”?
Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”?
William Llewelyn “anabolics”?
I understand anecdotal experience is priceless. I too prefer to stay on 150mg of test/week.
How old am I? Old enough to have worked for a number of companies that sell/sold pro hormones and peds, such as cel, SNS, nt/bm, Olympus labs, primordial performance.
Steroids? I’ve experimented with all kinds of them.
Sd, masteron, dimethazine, anadrol, anavar, androsterone, phera, desoxy test, hdrol, tbol, pmag, methyl clostebol, 1-test, m1t, 1-dhea, methyl stenbolone, m-diene, pro-dienolone, dienolone, trenadione, trenbolone, boldione, boldenone, dbol, 4-dhea, 4-androstenediol, Testosterone, boladiol, furazabol, prostanozol, epistane, max lmg, mentabolan, trestolone. I’m sure there’s more if I think more about it.

But there, I did my best to list the ph, the methyl counterparts, and injectable steroid I’ve used.
I’ve had the pleasure of bringing new compounds to the market, testing new compounds for companies for my opinions, and paid with cash for steroid/pro hormone information.

And now that I’m older and have seen the legal market rise and fall, I’ve grown disinterested in the industry as a whole and can admit, I’m not in the know anymore on the current legal ped market (sarms for example)
But after years over 10 years of using, testing, experimenting, and researching, I’ve had my fill. If you have been on this forum since 06 regularly you would know me by a different username, jbryand101b.
There’s my cool story bro.
We can agree to disagree! That’s okay! I’m just sharing my knowledge on the subject and hope to help those who listen.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

When you go off Anavar, do the insane pumps and crazy strength stay?

Steroids make you bigger, faster, stronger.

That's why its natty vs juicer.

I'd say forsure without a doubt, you will never keep 80%, 90% or 100%. You can try!

Why are BBrs alwas huge? Because they are always on. They have too. The body cannot hold all that new muscle without the tools they used to build it.

Ever see pro athletes when they go off? Wrestlers, BBers? Did they keep that size? You set your goals up really high cuz, hey, at least you will get close. Maybe there

Yeah i agree with that for sure. But with drugs that bring lots of water retention you tend to "lose" more as that goes away when you stop with them. Even though you lost water and not muscle particular, with dryer compounds you at least should have the impression of losing less.

Sd is a very dry compound. I guess we tend to talk about the bulkers to compare how much you lose. You won't gain much with anavar alone and it helps more with leaning up.

Oh ok...

but still, i think sometimes people exagerate a bit in AAS discussions... You can gain at least a little bit with the dryer drugs... Ive seen it with my own eyes... people do anavar only cycles(not even with test) and gain 5-7 pounds of lbm while dropping BF... And keep that. While if they had gone with diana they might have gained 20 in the end, but keeping only part of that, but with much lower quality.

first cycle, but still... thats why i think the most experienced users will not see much gains with them and disregard what you can gain on these

 

[Chados]

Yeah i agree with that for sure. But with drugs that bring lots of water retention you tend to "lose" more as that goes away when you stop with them. Even though you lost water and not muscle particular, with dryer compounds you at least should have the impression of losing less.



Oh ok...

but still, i think sometimes people exagerate a bit in AAS discussions... You can gain at least a little bit with the dryer drugs... Ive seen it with my own eyes... people do anavar only cycles(not even with test) and gain 5-7 pounds of lbm while dropping BF... And keep that. While if they had gone with diana they might have gained 20 in the end, but keeping only part of that, but with much lower quality.

first cycle, but still... thats why i think the most experienced users will not see much gains with them and disregard what you can gain on these

You'll always gain more on a first cycle considering youre doing it right and sometimes experience is more important than fresh receptors. Yes you can gain on drier compounds and they are easier to keep. Drier compounds are my favorite don't get me wrong but the bloat itself give you strenght and size. Might not be very pleasing to everyone but then again not everyone care about that. You're not gonna add a huge amount of muscles on anavar or strenght but it will mean you out, first cycle is highly possible to gain 10 pounds with var but the second you might not notice much as long as you kept that weight. Some compounds can pack on 20 pounds easily for any average man.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Yeah i agree with that for sure. But with drugs that bring lots of water retention you tend to "lose" more as that goes away when you stop with them. Even though you lost water and not muscle particular, with dryer compounds you at least should have the impression of losing less.



Oh ok...

but still, i think sometimes people exagerate a bit in AAS discussions... You can gain at least a little bit with the dryer drugs... Ive seen it with my own eyes... people do anavar only cycles(not even with test) and gain 5-7 pounds of lbm while dropping BF... And keep that. While if they had gone with diana they might have gained 20 in the end, but keeping only part of that, but with much lower quality.

first cycle, but still... thats why i think the most experienced users will not see much gains with them and disregard what you can gain on these

Some guys want the puffy look.

Dry compounds disappear too, well there action.

None of this is permanent guys.

We will be old fragile men.

Kill the fukkin weights, see how far your body can go, and have a blast

 

[morata9]

Ph as Epistane and superdrol (designer steroids) are way strongest than aas like winstrol or anavar. The problem is that they are also much more toxic..

 

[Georgiepecker]

Some guys want the puffy look.

Dry compounds disappear too, well there action.

None of this is permanent guys.

We will be old fragile men.

Kill the fukkin weights, see how far your body can go, and have a blast

Working out with AAS = Not even same ball park as natural though

It’s just more enjoyable to me

 

[210LBS]

All this talk about not being able to keep your gains from PHs is bumming me out.

 

[Bintherduntht]

We can have a dick swinging contest all day, you’ve been using gear for seven years. In that short time have you read any literature on steroids?
Julius Vida “androgens and anabolic agents chemistry and pharmcogy”?
Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”?
William Llewelyn “anabolics”?
I understand anecdotal experience is priceless. I too prefer to stay on 150mg of test/week.
How old am I? Old enough to have worked for a number of companies that sell/sold pro hormones and peds, such as cel, SNS, nt/bm, Olympus labs, primordial performance.
Steroids? I’ve experimented with all kinds of them.
Sd, masteron, dimethazine, anadrol, anavar, androsterone, phera, desoxy test, hdrol, tbol, pmag, methyl clostebol, 1-test, m1t, 1-dhea, methyl stenbolone, m-diene, pro-dienolone, dienolone, trenadione, trenbolone, boldione, boldenone, dbol, 4-dhea, 4-androstenediol, Testosterone, boladiol, furazabol, prostanozol, epistane, max lmg, mentabolan, trestolone. I’m sure there’s more if I think more about it.

But there, I did my best to list the ph, the methyl counterparts, and injectable steroid I’ve used.
I’ve had the pleasure of bringing new compounds to the market, testing new compounds for companies for my opinions, and paid with cash for steroid/pro hormone information.

And now that I’m older and have seen the legal market rise and fall, I’ve grown disinterested in the industry as a whole and can admit, I’m not in the know anymore on the current legal ped market (sarms for example)
But after years over 10 years of using, testing, experimenting, and researching, I’ve had my fill. If you have been on this forum since 06 regularly you would know me by a different username, jbryand101b.
There’s my cool story bro.
We can agree to disagree! That’s okay! I’m just sharing my knowledge on the subject and hope to help those who listen.

Here we go. The age game.

You're older so you MUST have been through more? 7 years of injecting yea. Not including 5 years of prohormone use.

I have used every single compound you mentioned, and more. You name it I've tried it lol.

The drols the halos the andros the 19nors.

Every PH, and every steroid. Except dumb **** for Lazies like clen.

I have been researching them for 11 years.

Yes I have William Llewelyn Anabolics on hard back. And the one Arnold wrote.

Don't think for a second I didn't do my homework. Who the fuk would put something in their body without researching it? Ignorance is bliss.

Guess what? I will be your age one day to.

I will NEVER play this dumb ass age game that older insecure guys play. I have nothing to prove. Because I know. I don't know everything.

I see little boys play their tiny dick games all day. Doesn't bother me. Drive your big trucks, talk your big talk. Little boys. In my gym, on this forum, everywhere.

Lmao.

I started the old school way. My mentor gave me a bottle of test. I had to figure out how to get pins, what size, how to do a proper sanitary inject.

Nowadays kids just google that ****. I didn't have that luxury.

I'll bite. Was abused daily from day one. Suicide was my best friend always waiting there. After getting my ass beat for 18 years, taking it like a man, I signed up to defend my beautiful country at 18. Deployed twice. Got out, went to jail. Then section 8 life, which comes with a side of drugs and alcohol abuse. In the streets fending for my own. More jail, tons of manual labor jobs.

Bought my own damn house at 24.

I've been in the depths of hell with the devil as my best friend.

Gun to my damn head. I've crashed, OD'd been shot at, stabbed, beat up.

I have no clue why im still alive.

Is it all peachy now? Hell no.

PTSD from abuse every day. Anxiety. Depression. Guilt. Self hatred. All that shiii

I live in a Meth infested area and sleep with a gun.

3 years sober.

That aint a 1/4 of it. And I'm not 30.

Theres my fukkin dik.

I'm cool, until you push me.

God bless brother!!

 

[Bintherduntht]

Working out with AAS = Not even same ball park as natural though

It’s just more enjoyable to me

You will still be as frail and fragile and feeble as the natty old guy next to you.

 

[Chados]

Ph as Epistane and superdrol (designer steroids) are way strongest than aas like winstrol or anavar. The problem is that they are also much more toxic..

Epistane is not very toxic, epistane isn't close to winstrol and sdrol can't be compared with winstrol, two different compounds designed to do different things.

 

[jswain34]

Test doesn't convert to shhyat

I haven't used before, just ended up reading through the thread out of curiosity (so maybe that means I know less than you....). But, lol...test does absolutely convert to "shhyat", you know...like DHT...and estradiol? Or is everything ive ever learned about physiology a lie?

 

[PoSiTiVeFLoW]

All this talk about not being able to keep your gains from PHs is bumming me out.

I think people have exaggerated opinions? And as we learned from the movie dogma ideas are powerful, flexible... Beliefs and opinions can be dangerous, because emotional ties overrule logic and evidence.

For my PH emperical experience, I have kept the gains from my 2+ years of previous PH cycles with PCTs between. Just keep eating, lifting, and use a real SERM for PCT. Get bloodwork, verify your natural health markers have recovered after cycle. I was 170 lbs at 6'2" (an ectomorph, unlike the OP) and like 20% fat 2.5 years ago. After 1 year was 190lbs and 14%. Then by year 2+ got to 220lbs and 16% fat on bulk or 210lbs and 11-12% if leaning out. This was all oral PH (DMZ, Epi, M1A) and some SARM like LGD, Ostarine. Each Ran solo and carefully as I could with solid 1 hr training 3-4 days per week in the AM. 10-15 min cardio to keep water, fat down.

Oral PH and AAS can produce very good results, there are ways to keep the gainz though. At least in my case it worked. I just stopped using the methyl PH past 2 months, lethargy without a test base, and because of cumulative liver stress risk... The periodic lethargy not good for being a new dad, and expecting another little one - with challenging career. Simple Test E + IM pin seems safer, bypass the liver stress, and easier to manage sides wise. But then it has other sides cholesterol, prostate - but can also be mitigated or managed, perhaps more easily than liver enzymes values going way up unless I eat 1g TUDCA daily, for methyl PHs?

February was maintenance training, on plain 300mg Test E, now I'm at 220lbs and 15%, but my diet is off a bit too. PH gainz still present from the past. Even when i drop Test to natty I goto 205-210lbs, new baseline. That's still 35-40lbs more muscle than I had prior to all this. So yeah you won't look like Mr. Olympia everyday, but a good amount of long term muscle will still be there in the end even from PH / SARMS.

All of these oral PH / AAS gear / SARMS, needs proper cycle supports and ancillaries, there is no free lunch in chemistry with steroid like molecules. Each vary in effect depending on functional modifications and ability of the test subject doing research. The short and powerful methyl PH cycles were a god send, despite the liver stress and lethargy with suppressed test. I was able to make gainz and heal old sport join injuries in very rapid time. MK-677 growth hormone boost helped too - to solidify the work. And I'm not eating super diets. Just extra breakfast and or dinner, protein bar, and gainer shakes. Good meals are foundation still.

Now I'm more consistent and can lift a bit slower and concentrated, I can do a longer lower risk slower gain IM Test base cycle of simple Test and EQ or RAD. But trust me I still have a cabinet of S-drol, Epi, DMZ, LGD, Osta, and RAD for some blasting... that I will carefully now run with a lose dose test base and supports. Always need before /after monthly bloodwork and training and diet is critical. I still really want to run my DMZ again, but wanted to rest the liver for awhile first.

 

[Georgiepecker]

You will still be as frail and fragile and feeble as the natty old guy next to you.

No I won’t?

 

[mixedup]

I always gain 10 pounds On a cycle at least, sometimes up to 20 and yeah orals are extremly hard to keep, I think you lose on injectibles too but it seems like you're more aesthetically pleasing after injectibles.

Let's say you gain 20 pounds On both and lose 10, the quality from injectibles will be far better. Some steroids packs on muscle and some more weight. Tren comes to mind , not much of a bulker if you don't eat like a truck but even then you will pack on muscle size that will stay , so even if you lose weight your arms will still be bigger. Now do a dbol cycle and you get big fast but when you fall your size falls with you because it's mostly water. Even a test only cycle will make you keep muscles far better than any oral.

How many cycles have you done? To consistently gain 10 to 20lbs is pretty amazing

 

[Mike Arnold]

My first ever cycle was an msten prohormone cycle. I ran it at 30mg for 8 weeks and gained 20lbs and kept everything. My second cycle was a test only cycle at 500mg a week and gained about 5lbs. My cycle after that was a test deca dbol cycle and barely gained weight but my strength went up a lot. Im noticing that real aas get me really strong but no anabolic has made me gain weight as fast as msten. Should i give msten another try? Or was the reason for the weight gain solely due to it being my first cycle?

It's partly because it was your fist cycle, but you were also likely eating much higher above maintenance for your 1st cycle than your 2nd cycle. Think about it. If you gained 20 pounds your first cycle and 5 pounds your 2nd cycle, that is 25 pounds. Your caloric requirements would have gone up a LOT by then--probably a good 600-1,000 calories per day, depending on metabolism. Therefore, if you were not eating 600-1,000 calories more on your 3rd cycle than you were on your 1st cycle, you are not going to gain anywhere near as much muscle tissue.

Muscle building gets harder as you get bigger--for many reasons, one of which the continued need for ever greater amounts of food. By the time you put on 50 pounds you will probably be eating 1,500-2,000 calories more (per day) than when you started, just for maintenance. Let's say a bodybuilder starts out at 180 lbs with maintenance caloric intake of 2-2.5K calories daily. By the time he hits 300 pounds he will probably have a maintenance caloric intake of 5-6K.

For every pound of muscle you gain your caloric requirements rise. This is a BIG reason why so many guys never get very big--they just can't (or won't) do what needs to be done at the dinner table. I went from 168 lbs to 272. I started at about 2.5-3K calories per day and could gain weight at that intake when weight training. However, I am now at 245 lbs and need to eat 4-4.5K just to maintain. When I was 272 lbs I had to eat 5,000 to maintain and 5,500 to gain. Everything gets harder as you get bigger, especially diet.

Regarding the steroids you were using, M-sten is an extremely potent methylated steroid, so your quick mass gains were partially attributable to that. Still,m if you were eating, training, and resting the way you needed to be for your 3rd cycle in order to maximize gains, you would not have gained zero weight. You would have gained a lot of mass. People on their 3rd cycle can still make excellent gains because they are generally still quite far away from maximizing PED induced muscle growth.

 

[Chados]

How many cycles have you done? To consistently gain 10 to 20lbs is pretty amazing

I have no idea exactly but I've tried pretty much every compound out there and I never do huge stacks meaning I've ran 2-3 compounds at a time, so a lot. I don't keep adding 10 pounds every cycle of musclemass, but I can easily gain 10-20 lbs and drop body fat. After the cycle sure I lose some if I add that much but I still think my body in general responds very well to aas, I have an extremly hard time adding fat making gains clean and that's when not eating perfectly. Also I don't try to be the biggest guy on the planet, I rather look like 300 pounds and weigh 200 then the other way around.

 

[jackedviking]

It's partly because it was your fist cycle, but you were also likely eating much higher above maintenance for your 1st cycle than your 2nd cycle. Think about it. If you gained 20 pounds your first cycle and 5 pounds your 2nd cycle, that is 25 pounds. Your caloric requirements would have gone up a LOT by then--probably a good 600-1,000 calories per day, depending on metabolism. Therefore, if you were not eating 600-1,000 calories more on your 3rd cycle than you were on your 1st cycle, you are not going to gain anywhere near as much muscle tissue.

Muscle building gets harder as you get bigger--for many reasons, one of which the continued need for ever greater amounts of food. By the time you put on 50 pounds you will probably be eating 1,500-2,000 calories more (per day) than when you started, just for maintenance. Let's say a bodybuilder starts out at 180 lbs with maintenance caloric intake of 2-2.5K calories daily. By the time he hits 300 pounds he will probably have a maintenance caloric intake of 5-6K.

For every pound of muscle you gain your caloric requirements rise. This is a BIG reason why so many guys never get very big--they just can't (or won't) do what needs to be done at the dinner table. I went from 168 lbs to 272. I started at about 2.5-3K calories per day and could gain weight at that intake when weight training. However, I am now at 245 lbs and need to eat 4-4.5K just to maintain. When I was 272 lbs I had to eat 5,000 to maintain and 5,500 to gain. Everything gets harder as you get bigger, especially diet.

Regarding the steroids you were using, M-sten is an extremely potent methylated steroid, so your quick mass gains were partially attributable to that. Still,m if you were eating, training, and resting the way you needed to be for your 3rd cycle in order to maximize gains, you would not have gained zero weight. You would have gained a lot of mass. People on their 3rd cycle can still make excellent gains because they are generally still quite far away from maximizing PED induced muscle growth.

Noticed there’s a bunch of M-Sten on ebay. Seller has 99% positive feedback. Any thoughts on if this is even possibly legit?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Noticed there’s a bunch of M-Sten on ebay. Seller has 99% positive feedback. Any thoughts on if this is even possibly legit?

Wouldn’t risk it, most of the people on there have plenty of positive reviews but still sell fake stuff

 

[trn450]

For many of the "PH" sups, the name is a misnomer. They're just steroids that exist in a grey area of legality. They've not been banned, so they're illegal.

Some of them are incredibly effective. I doubt anybody who was around and lifting in the early 2000s would deny that Superdrol and M1T couldn't be put up against the most powerful agents on the planet. They were absolutely insane. But, I haven't kept up since then and am not sure where things are now with the currently available PH sups.

 

[Chados]

For many of the "PH" sups, the name is a misnomer. They're just steroids that exist in a grey area of legality. They've not been banned, so they're illegal.

Some of them are incredibly effective. I doubt anybody who was around and lifting in the early 2000s would deny that Superdrol and M1T couldn't be put up against the most powerful agents on the planet. They were absolutely insane. But, I haven't kept up since then and am not sure where things are now with the currently available PH sups.

Agree completly. The only thing I think is incomparable is the effect (real) aas has with the aesthetic side. Nothing on the ph market can match winstrol , tren etc but I think it's fair to say sdrol can match dbol and anadrol quite well.

 

[Cgkone]

We can have a dick swinging contest all day, you’ve been using gear for seven years. In that short time have you read any literature on steroids?
Julius Vida “androgens and anabolic agents chemistry and pharmcogy”?
Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”?
William Llewelyn “anabolics”?
I understand anecdotal experience is priceless. I too prefer to stay on 150mg of test/week.
How old am I? Old enough to have worked for a number of companies that sell/sold pro hormones and peds, such as cel, SNS, nt/bm, Olympus labs, primordial performance.
Steroids? I’ve experimented with all kinds of them.
Sd, masteron, dimethazine, anadrol, anavar, androsterone, phera, desoxy test, hdrol, tbol, pmag, methyl clostebol, 1-test, m1t, 1-dhea, methyl stenbolone, m-diene, pro-dienolone, dienolone, trenadione, trenbolone, boldione, boldenone, dbol, 4-dhea, 4-androstenediol, Testosterone, boladiol, furazabol, prostanozol, epistane, max lmg, mentabolan, trestolone. I’m sure there’s more if I think more about it.

But there, I did my best to list the ph, the methyl counterparts, and injectable steroid I’ve used.
I’ve had the pleasure of bringing new compounds to the market, testing new compounds for companies for my opinions, and paid with cash for steroid/pro hormone information.

And now that I’m older and have seen the legal market rise and fall, I’ve grown disinterested in the industry as a whole and can admit, I’m not in the know anymore on the current legal ped market (sarms for example)
But after years over 10 years of using, testing, experimenting, and researching, I’ve had my fill. If you have been on this forum since 06 regularly you would know me by a different username, jbryand101b.
There’s my cool story bro.
We can agree to disagree! That’s okay! I’m just sharing my knowledge on the subject and hope to help those who listen.

Well brother can you steer somebody to comeback out with the PH to ment and the PH to dbol.
I just shot 150mg of trest and it was ok....I guess.
If I ate 50 mg of mentobalone I'd be on one....chasing the wife with a woody.
Also M14add was so good too.

I wonder why these labs don't put back out the good PH. The ones everybody loved.
Are they hard to make?

 

[BloodManor]

Most compounds are illegal and not worth getting raided for probably

 

[Cgkone]

Most compounds are illegal and not worth getting raided for probably

You mean like steroids?
When I said labs I meant the ones making illegal steroids for us criminals to shoot up.

 

[BloodManor]

You mean like steroids?
When I said labs I meant the ones making illegal steroids for us criminals to shoot up.

Haha gotcha
Maybe not as profitable and some compounds may raise a red flag for authorities

 

[Cgkone]

Haha gotcha
Maybe not as profitable and some compounds may raise a red flag for authorities

That's what I was wondering
I just think they havnt thought about a few of the popular ones.
I'd spend 75-100$ for a 100 caps of the ones I mentioned.

 

[brofessorx]

Menadione was a difficult compound to keep from what I understood.

Trest ace, if pure, should give you a good andro rush the first time you use it.

But it still isn’t the same as no ester

 

[210LBS]

Well brother can you steer somebody to comeback out with the PH to ment and the PH to dbol.
I just shot 150mg of trest and it was ok....I guess.
If I ate 50 mg of mentobalone I'd be on one....chasing the wife with a woody.
Also M14add was so good too.

I wonder why these labs don't put back out the good PH. The ones everybody loved.
Are they hard to make?

How did Fusion create Androtest? Was 4-ad not banned in Europe? Can they come out with 1-ad or maybe 1,4-ad? I remember 1,4-ad was pretty beloved by users. Now we have 1,4-dhea but I'd bet if a company like Fusion could come out with 1,4-ad it would bring them some serious attention.

 

[Cgkone]

How did Fusion create Androtest? Was 4-ad not banned in Europe? Can they come out with 1-ad or maybe 1,4-ad? I remember 1,4-ad was pretty beloved by users. Now we have 1,4-dhea but I'd bet if a company like Fusion could come out with 1,4-ad it would bring them some serious attention.

Oops

 

[Cgkone]

Menadione was a difficult compound to keep from what I understood.

Trest ace, if pure, should give you a good andro rush the first time you use it.

But it still isn’t the same as no ester

I wan surprised by trest ace.
Its good but maybe the no ester will have the umph I get from the PH to trest

 

[Cgkone]

I'm happy I just scored an open bottle.
Ill save it just for sex.
The sex drive on the MENT is impossible to satisfy.
This trest ace is just not there.

 

[jackedviking]

Wouldn’t risk it, most of the people on there have plenty of positive reviews but still sell fake stuff

That's a shame.... but good looking out for ya boy!

 

[Chados]

How did Fusion create Androtest? Was 4-ad not banned in Europe? Can they come out with 1-ad or maybe 1,4-ad? I remember 1,4-ad was pretty beloved by users. Now we have 1,4-dhea but I'd bet if a company like Fusion could come out with 1,4-ad it would bring them some serious attention.

No idea but Europe doesn't go under the same rules. Maybe you mean the EU? It's still the same here. Quite strange that England (not anymore in the eu though) always been so tolerant with steroids. we do have some rules like immigration they try to force on every eu member but that's about it and it doesn't seem like many countries follow that principle either.