For Optimal Fat Loss - HITT vs Low Intensity Cardio

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  1. Thanks for the clarification.


    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I think he means some of the olympic moves like clean and jerks. could be any of the moves that use a lot of the core though, deadlifts come to mind.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    lol, didn't mean to upset you (did you hurt yourself one time doing snatches or something!?!?)
    Funny you mention injuries when you're recommending 1 arm DB snatches and high rep cleans and even worse, high rep 1 arm DB snatches. If you're not being a complete geek doing cleans, then cleans are a very high coordination lift, and guess what starts happening when you get towards failure? 1 arm DB snatches are only good for injuries, and I'm not sure what the point of doing 1 arm DB snatches would be for 20 reps. High reps for cleans and snatches is dumb. My guess is that weights being used are so puny that risk of injury is low. But then you have another problem...you're lifting like a dork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    HIIT stands for High Intensity Interval Training. Does not stand for cardio. If heavy weight explosiveness is the best way to burn fat, powerlifters would be the leanest people in the gym, which is not the case. Heavy compound movements are great for building muscle, and you are certainly correct in how they work the body big time. Big time tax on the body, no doubt about it.
    Powerlifters in general are eating huge amounts of food with little regard for body composition, so your reasoning is highly flawed. I'm talking about a bodybuilder with sound diet and cardio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    For a fat loss geared individual, it's just not the best route however. DB snatches are just an example of a compound movement that is safe to incorporate into a high intensity training style. Lifting heavy restricts you to a lower rep count, and your total work time isn't going to be high enough to raise the heart rate (raising the HR is how you burn fat, I think that's pretty obvious).
    This makes me question if you've ever lifted hard with compound lifts in your life. Try that routine I have and see if your heart isn't ready to pound out of your chest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    Check out Crossfit.com and watch some videos. You seem to half-understand the concept of supersetting. There really is no "wussy" exercises out there, and DB snatches are definitly not one. May not be the best bodybuilder's tool, but it runs the body quite hard. DB snatches are just one of the many changes you throw into a program. As you know, your body will adapt to any routine. Keep mixing it up, such as substituting deads/cleans/snatches into the beefy parts of the sets to keep your body guessing. Honestly, check out the site. Not to knock on your opinion, but this type of training has been tried and proven by thousands of people. It grasps the common knowledge we have about HIIT as well, just with weights, making it very easy to understand.

    Realize that the OP's question was for fat loss...

    DB snatches are good for injuries. They're good for people that want something entertaining instead of hard work like deadlifting.

    And yes, I realize the question is for fat loss. Cookie cutter programs like yours don't take into account people's differences. So someone that's fast twitch should train the same as someone slower twitch? C'mon, that's just silly.

    Show me some big lean guys that use pushups and 1 arm DB snatches for their fat loss. I only ever see small lean guys using this.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    The problem with this is that you're done for several days after doing this workout. When circuit training, you incorporate exercises that you can rebound from quicker. Pullups, pushups, ect. Simple movements... that way you can utilize the weight training more often (ie get more fat loss). Often you would incorporate a compound movement, such as deads/cleans/snatches, but if you were to do all of them, you're just overdoing it.

    Yes, that workout will beat you down, but that's not the point. For fatloss, you would need a consistant approach. If doing this to failure, like you say, you're done with back and legs for days. Won't even be able to do cardio if you truely go to failure. Not smart.

    If that's the case, you need to increase your work capacity. If you can't train 3 times a week (which is pretty much every other day), then you need to work on getting in better shape.

    Cardio and interval running like 200m is what you do to get in daily work. If you want to add calisthenics, great, but they shouldn't be the core of the resistance training program.

  4. ??? a) Chill out a bit, we just have conflicting opinions

    b) I feel pretty strongly about this fat loss program. Yes, I have trained compound lifts before, and I do train hard. I'm not doubting the intensity of your routine, but it's nearly rediculous if you are centered for fat loss. First off, the way I see it, your just going to lapse into overtraining immediately. Doing 3 sets of failure of heavy deads+cleans+pressing, 3 or 4 times a week is just not smart. Doing it once a week to failure is quite a bit for one day. Several days a week... I just can't agree with that.

    Do realize that I was just throwing DB snatches into the mix of compound movements that stress the body, inducing fatloss. I probably only do DB snatches once every 2-3 weeks. What I was offering is anything but a "cookie cutter" program, in fact it's quite the opposite. Listing off the 3 major compound movements, and writing to do it 3-4 times a week to failure, is about as "cookie cutter" as it gets.

    Re-read the last thing you wrote.. his question again was for fatloss, and the most effective way. Destroying your CNS and overtraining is not my idea of the best fat loss program. Coupled with HIIT cardio, or even low-intensity cardio, you will burn out immediately. Definintly not something I'd recommend to someone looking for fat loss, nevermind the fact that he just came out of surgury.

    If you have any sort of source for your program, by all means I'll read it. I've never, EVER seen anything like that for fat loss however, not through your ideas (no offense, just stating). Crossfit.com and the Navy Seal Crossfit site have proven results, and are backed by thousands of people. Definitly not a cookie cutter program in the slightest... just check it out and read some.

    DB snatches may be a tough exercise to control, and it is possible to injure yourself, but deadlifting to FAILURE and squatting to FAILURE over and over supersetting even more exercises is far, far more dangerous.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Neil5585 View Post
    If that's the case, you need to increase your work capacity. If you can't train 3 times a week (which is pretty much every other day), then you need to work on getting in better shape.

    Cardio and interval running like 200m is what you do to get in daily work. If you want to add calisthenics, great, but they shouldn't be the core of the resistance training program.
    I'm not going to stir up anything more, but, you simply don't train compound lifts such as heavy deadlifts 3x a week if you go to absolute failure. There won't be one athlete out there that will agree with doing failure heavy deadlifts supersetted to failure heavy squats 3x a week.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Highlanda01602 View Post
    Definintly not something I'd recommend to someone looking for fat loss, nevermind the fact that he just came out of surgury.
    You're right about this. I'm sorry. He will have to carefully gradually increase his work capacity to get back into something like I mentioned.

    If you can't handle a simple workout like that, again, you need to increase your work tolerance so you're no longer a geek that overtrains by walking up the stairs to the gym. Start out twice a week if needed, but the point is you gradually increase the work you do for better results.

    Again, where are the BIG lean bodybuilders that use crossfit to get lean? I only ever see skinny lean guys doing this.

    Going to failure on squats or deadlift is far safer than with cleans or snatches. With cleans and snatches there is a high degree of coordination needed to complete the lift--it's a technical lift. This falls apart with high reps and near failure. With squats I don't mean going to failure to the point where your hips are coming up first out of the hole. I mean to failure with good form. If you're going to failure by letting your back round a lot on deads or GM'ing up your squat, then you're just being stupid.

    *EDIT - by the way, you mention Navy Seal style training. Now I've done this before and I'm assuming you have as well, so you know well that you can't just jump in and do the advanced Seal training from the beginning. You have to increase your work capacity and fitness before you can handle the harder workouts. Same thing with the full body "circuits" I mentioned.

  7. the other problem/question I see is rest time between sets with that. Generally if i'm doing that sort of grouping (the
    1a - Deadlift 5-12 reps
    1b - Hammer press 5-12 reps
    1c - ATG Back squat 5-12 reps
    1d - Weighted pullups 5-12 reps
    )

    I'm either having to work with relatively low weights, so not getting intensity, or having to take long rests between full rotations. Granted yes doing heavy deadlifts does spike heart rate, but since its anaerobic it also collapses right after.

    I have done Poliquin's GBC before and it is sort of simiar, but its with lighter weights on purpose. then again, I guess with a 5-12 range, theres a pretty wide range of weights I could possibly use

  8. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    the other problem/question I see is rest time between sets with that. Generally if i'm doing that sort of grouping (the
    1a - Deadlift 5-12 reps
    1b - Hammer press 5-12 reps
    1c - ATG Back squat 5-12 reps
    1d - Weighted pullups 5-12 reps
    )

    I'm either having to work with relatively low weights, so not getting intensity, or having to take long rests between full rotations. Granted yes doing heavy deadlifts does spike heart rate, but since its anaerobic it also collapses right after.

    I have done Poliquin's GBC before and it is sort of simiar, but its with lighter weights on purpose. then again, I guess with a 5-12 range, theres a pretty wide range of weights I could possibly use

    Try this one out -
    Deadlift x 21, Pushups x 21, Thrusters x 21, Pushups x 21
    Try doing that for three rounds, with a running clock. Total workout might take somewhere between 6-20 minutes, depending on level, and it absolutely kicks asses. I just made this workout up, but it's something you'd see in a crossfit program. Unlike anaerobic lifting, crossfit branches into aerobic as well (which is actually the entire meaning of crossfit). Depending on how hard you drive yourself through the workout, it can be one of the toughest anaerobic AND aerobic challenges (that I've ever faced).
    I typically use these types of workouts in my normal routines, but just because they address my physical ability goals (not for fat loss). But from experience, they make you pour sweat harder than I ever have with weights. I'd be all for recommending these types of workouts to an individual trying to cut out some fat... coupled with additional cardio on off days, I think it would be absolutely the quickest way to drop bodyfat... and gain some awesome real-world performance and endurance. Check out these two sites, some of my favorites:
    Welcome to CrossFit: Forging Elite Fitness
    CrossFit Workout of the Day | NavySEALs.com - Experience the SEAL Edge
    There's a new "Workout of the Day" for each day, with a 3 on/1 off protocol. Rarely will you see the same workout twice, as it keeps introducing new challenging concepts to the body. I used to be into powerlifting in my earlier years, but ever since I changed my goals, this new type of lifting has taken over me completely - I love it. Check it out, you won't be dissapointed! Lots of research behind it, and many people to back it... definitly a cool program.

  9. Yeah, appreciate the feedback, but will definitely be easing back into it slowly...been nearly about 2 months out of the gym.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil5585 View Post
    You're right about this. I'm sorry. He will have to carefully gradually increase his work capacity to get back into something like I mentioned.

    If you can't handle a simple workout like that, again, you need to increase your work tolerance so you're no longer a geek that overtrains by walking up the stairs to the gym. Start out twice a week if needed, but the point is you gradually increase the work you do for better results.

    Again, where are the BIG lean bodybuilders that use crossfit to get lean? I only ever see skinny lean guys doing this.

    Going to failure on squats or deadlift is far safer than with cleans or snatches. With cleans and snatches there is a high degree of coordination needed to complete the lift--it's a technical lift. This falls apart with high reps and near failure. With squats I don't mean going to failure to the point where your hips are coming up first out of the hole. I mean to failure with good form. If you're going to failure by letting your back round a lot on deads or GM'ing up your squat, then you're just being stupid.

    *EDIT - by the way, you mention Navy Seal style training. Now I've done this before and I'm assuming you have as well, so you know well that you can't just jump in and do the advanced Seal training from the beginning. You have to increase your work capacity and fitness before you can handle the harder workouts. Same thing with the full body "circuits" I mentioned.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by fatburner2007 View Post
    Yeah, appreciate the feedback, but will definitely be easing back into it slowly...been nearly about 2 months out of the gym.
    All the more reason to start off with some good ol' body weight exercises, something I think is too often neglected in normal routines. BW exercises will help you get back your base via the most natural "lifting" possible, IMO of course. I noticed that you have time to workout at 5pm, unless it's a weekend. With BW exercises, you could do them before work at your place, and then take on some more actual weight training/cardio if the day is right at 5pm.
    Pushups, Body Squats, situps, flutter kicks, burpees... love em. Then to intertwine some aerobics into it, throw in some HIIT methods (aka Tabata). 20 seconds of air squats, 10 seconds rest, 20 seconds air squats, 10 seconds rest. 5 sets of those is intensity in some of it's finest form! Simply stringing BW exercises together, even in simplist manner, will kick some serious ass, both anerobically and aerobically Highly underrated IMO.

    Here's another sudo-form of the "crossfit" training style, built by one amazing man - Ross Enamit. If you've ever heard of him, you'd know how great this guy is. Check it out - Lots of free articles addressing training topics... definitely solid reading material. I own one of his books, "Never Gymless", which brings in conventional training styles into effective circuit training. His other big-time book, "Infinite Intensity", would be a better pickup (Never Gymless was good, but pretty simple concepts IMO) Another great high-intensity program that will shed you of any excess fat, and will truely earn you some high performance abilities.
    RossTraining - Bridging The Gap Between Ordinary and Extraordinary

  11. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    the other problem/question I see is rest time between sets with that. Generally if i'm doing that sort of grouping (the
    1a - Deadlift 5-12 reps
    1b - Hammer press 5-12 reps
    1c - ATG Back squat 5-12 reps
    1d - Weighted pullups 5-12 reps
    )

    I'm either having to work with relatively low weights, so not getting intensity, or having to take long rests between full rotations. Granted yes doing heavy deadlifts does spike heart rate, but since its anaerobic it also collapses right after.

    I have done Poliquin's GBC before and it is sort of simiar, but its with lighter weights on purpose. then again, I guess with a 5-12 range, theres a pretty wide range of weights I could possibly use

    The variation in rep range is to take into account individual differences. This is key. You should do rep ranges that you gain muscle in when cutting. If a fast twitch guy does sets of 12 or higher with very short rest while cutting, he's going to lose a lot of strength and muscle. On the flip side, if a slower twitch guy does sets of 5 with longer rest, he's going to lose muscle.

    That's one issue I've seen talking with bodybuilders and lifting for cutting. Often they've tried the circuit training method with high reps and no rest, and it usually just helped them lose muscle. Why? Because a lot of these guys are moderate to fast twitch and they're doing workouts with 20 reps per set and no rest. They're not stimulating their main muscle mass, so why is the body going to keep it while cutting?

    If I built my body doing sets of 6-8, for example, that means I stimulated the muscles in a particular way which forced them to adapt to the stimulus by hypertrophy.

    When you start to cut, what does the body like to do? Become more efficient. We have thrifty genes, and the body is likely to eliminate metabolically demanding muscle tissue to help become more efficient if it determines that extra muscle tissue isn't needed for survival and caloric intake is low.

    So you built a body with 6-8 reps, you've gained a lot of muscle, now you feel it's time to cut. So then you go and do sets of 20 with no rest? How are you stimulating all the new muscle you've built by convincing your body that it's needed for survival? You're not. And when the body feels it isn't necessary for survival and you cut down the calories, then it's likely going to reduce that unneeded muscle tissue in order to become more efficient.

    Now all that hard earned muscle isn't being stimulated and your body is willing to let it go because you're not showing it's needed with the 20 reps with no rest type lifting (this is, of course, assuming you haven't built your body with 20 reps per set).

  12. subscribed!

    are you going to log your results?

  13. Yeah, going to try to if I have time for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by delsolrob View Post
    subscribed!

    are you going to log your results?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Neil5585 View Post
    I'm gonna be an ******* here. Do both. Along with full body circuits done in rep ranges that you gain muscle.

    The cardio vs. HIIT debate in my opinion is just as lame as "what number of reps is best for gaining muscle?"
    I think a lot of it has to do where u stand with your body fat percentage. The higher body fat percentage the more stress your body can handle. Let's say your sitting at 15%, than yo could benefit greater from HIIT than low intensity cardio. As your body fat gets in the single digits its safer to go with low intensity cardio, since your body is more prone to overtaining.

  15. I think you are mostly right, but its not related to overtraining so much as once your bodyfat gets much lower than 15% your body has a much greater "desire" to hold on to it, as you are below normal levels. So your body is a lot more prone to burn muscle than the remaining fat.

  16. Can body weight training be followed with HIIT in the same workout session, same day (not doing one in the morning and one later in the day)?

    Initially, I was looking to do either HIIT or body weight training on a specific day, but wondering if the can be combined together?

    Monday - Full Body Weight Training

    Tuesday - HIIT Workout
    30 Seconds Brisk Walk, 30 Seconds Sprint, Repeat 9 More Times (10 Minutes Total)

    Wednesday - Full Body Weight Training

    Thursday - HIIT Workout
    30 Seconds Brisk Walk, 30 Seconds Sprint, Repeat 9 More Times (10 Minutes Total)

    Friday
    - Full Body Weight Training

    Saturday and Sunday - Rest (maybe a HIIT session on Saturday)

  17. Quote Originally Posted by fatburner2007 View Post
    Can body weight training be followed with HIIT in the same workout session, same day (not doing one in the morning and one later in the day)?

    Initially, I was looking to do either HIIT or body weight training on a specific day, but wondering if the can be combined together?

    Monday - Full Body Weight Training

    Tuesday - HIIT Workout
    30 Seconds Brisk Walk, 30 Seconds Sprint, Repeat 9 More Times (10 Minutes Total)

    Wednesday - Full Body Weight Training

    Thursday - HIIT Workout
    30 Seconds Brisk Walk, 30 Seconds Sprint, Repeat 9 More Times (10 Minutes Total)

    Friday
    - Full Body Weight Training

    Saturday and Sunday - Rest (maybe a HIIT session on Saturday)

    Thats similar to what I had planned to start 2day. Im am pretty sick so I wont start until wed. Here's what I was going to do

    Monday/Wednesday/Friday: Full Body Routine, 30min Low-Intensity PWO

    Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday:Ab routine followed by 12-15min HIIT Tredmill cardio, walk 1min @ 3.0 then 4%incline @ 9.5speed for 1 min.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  18. How are you doing your Full Body Routine?

    What is PWO?


    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    Thats similar to what I had planned to start 2day. Im am pretty sick so I wont start until wed. Here's what I was going to do

    Monday/Wednesday/Friday: Full Body Routine, 30min Low-Intensity PWO

    Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday:Ab routine followed by 12-15min HIIT Tredmill cardio, walk 1min @ 3.0 then 4%incline @ 9.5speed for 1 min.

  19. Post Work Out. HIIT after a workout would be really hard, and not as beneficial I think. 20 minutes on a bike or elliptical at 120s heart rate steady would be ok. all I do on HIIT days is abs first, which is more a warmup

  20. Thank you Easy

    Im not real sure what my routine is going to look like. I better figure it out because it starts 2maro
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  21. OH

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Post Work Out. HIIT after a workout would be really hard, and not as beneficial I think. 20 minutes on a bike or elliptical at 120s heart rate steady would be ok. all I do on HIIT days is abs first, which is more a warmup

  22. Your running man Avi trips me out, but very appropriate
    NSCA - CSCS

  23. Yeah, reminds me of the Bionic Man

    Although since my surgery, it is kind of my new focus of cardio, HIIT, running, etc and less so on weights.


    Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    Your running man Avi trips me out, but very appropriate

  24. Would it be overkill of doing light intensity cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and then HIIT later in the day around 5pm?

  25. So for about a week now I have been trying HIIT around 5pm and on other days doing cardio with HR intensity around 140-150 on an empty stomach.

    Which is more effective though for fat loss? I know we have already discussed HIIT is most effective, but you wouldn't want to do HIIT on an empty stomach so doing cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach for about 40 mins at a HR of 140-150 or save it for later in the day to do HIIT around 5pm for about 20 mins?
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