In Depth Protein Breakdown

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  1. Originally posted by bpdaddy
    a half cup of CC!  That sounds sick!
    doesnt it??!!? but i promise you man, the taste of the cc's can barely be noticable with the pb/whey powder mixed in. I did have to add in 2 packets of nutrasweet/splenda for awhile though.

  2. So only 30% of the whey protein taken in is used when not after a workout?

    Because that would lower much of my totals, and that would just suck.

  3. Originally posted by ReDCuBiN
    So only 30% of the whey protein taken in is used when not after a workout?

    Because that would lower much of my totals, and that would just suck.
    I believe so.

  4. Colostrum and Fast vs Slow proteins, quoted directly from robertthoburn @ bb:

    "Milk, as most of you know, is a mixture of two major proteins, whey and casein. Colostrum, or 'first milk', is produced by mammals in the first 1-4 days of nursing. In cows, colostrum is produced up to about the 6th milking.

    Think of colostrum as milk with a built-in 'pharmacy'. Colostrum is teaming with microbe-fighting, tissue-building factors, all ready to go to work on the immature, and desperately dependent infant animal.

    Frequently, milk proteins are separated and sold as individual supplements (e.g., whey protein isolate).

    Not surprisingly, however, research is beginning to suggest that leaving casein and whey together (i.e., as nature gives them to us) may offer superior benefits. (Again, I say "may", as I'm to a certain extent theorizing here.). Casein seems to be especially important in this regard.

    Whey is commonly described as a ‘fast’ protein, meaning it is quickly digested and absorbed. Casein is considered ‘slow’ by comparison. Thus, popular in the bodybuilding community is the notion that combining whey and casein will offer rapid, yet sustained delivery of amino acids to the body's tissues (e.g., your muscles).

    Interestingly enough, however, the differences between casein and whey in terms of amino acid absorption seem to disappear within the context of a mixed meal. Furthermore, when it comes to digestion and absorption, it could be argued that faster is not necessarily better ---quite the contrary, in fact.

    Whey protein tends to 'dump' into the small intestine relatively more quickly than does casein. This is associated with a more rapid exposure ot the intestinal cells to the products of its digestion (peptides, amino acids), resulting in a faster rate of absorption of amino acids into the bloodstream.

    Unfortunately, protein synthesis (as in muscle) occurs at a snail's pace compared to the rapid rate at which whey's amino acids enter the bloodstream. That is, the amino acids are absorbed faster than your muscles' protein-building machinery can make efficient use of them.

    In addition, high levels of certain amino acids can be toxic to your tissues. Thus, much of whey's rapidly absorbed amino acids are accordingly 'burned up', or oxidized, so as to clear them out of the bloodstream. The oxidation of amino acids occurs in preference to that of fat. Thus, rapidly absorped proteins, such as whey, may be expected to suppress the burning of fat and promote fat gain (arguably not an issue, of course, unless you're consuming too many calories).

    In short, the faster your protein supplement is absorbed into your bloodstream as amino acids, the more likely those amino acids are to be 'wasted' (oxidized) rather than channeled into the building of new tissue (e.g., muscle) proteins. Hmm...

    Nevertheless, combining casein with whey, as well as other protein supplements, such as casein, may offer some benefits.

    Colostrum contains a plethora of biologically active components beyond its protein contents. These include growth factors like insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I). IGF-I, a 'messenger' of growth hormone (GH), has long been worshipped by bodybuilders as a muscle-enhancing molecule to be reckoned with.

    I have long questioned whether colostrum holds any utility for bodybuilders like myself who 'simply' wish to pack on muscle tissue in the absence of additional (or alongside a concomitant reduction in) body fat.

    Animal studies seem to suggest that colostrum's growth factors exert their effects largely at the intestinal level (e.g., supporting the growth of intestinal tissue), though not entirely so.

    Then there is the question of the bioavailability of colostrum's IGF-I in the adult human: Can it get into the bloodstream and thence the muscles so as to enhance muscle growth?

    In terms of its electrical character, IGF-I is a basic protein. Thus, it's pretty happy (stable) in the acid environment of your gut. But when it gets into the intestine, protein-digesting enzymes can cleave it into pieces, rendering it biologically inactive (i.e., now a mere source of amino acids).

    This brings us back to casein. Casein appears to be capable of protecting biologically active proteins by extending their life time in the intestine. This may extend to biologically active proteins in the colostrum supplements, and possibly whey, that you now see on the retain shelf....or maybe not. Controlled experiments will determine this, perhaps.

    Casein has been shown to increase the half-life of IGF-I in the upper part of the small intestine (duodenum) from 2 to > 30 minutes (similar to its half-life in serum), with 80% of duodental IGF-I still intact after 60 minutes. The same effect of casein is seen with epidermal growth factor (EGF), a related peptide.

    Will combining casein with colostrum allow IGF-I to get into your bloodstream and treat your body to a muscle-building and/or fat-reducing delight? That's highly questionable, but possible.

    Keep in mind, too, that local IGF-I production, i.e., that which occurs right inside your muscles themselves, seems to play the most important role in building bigger muscles. The IGF-I that floats about in your blood stream seems of lesser importance.

    Thus, even if a casein-rich product containing IGF-I from colostrum did manage to affect an increase in blood IGF-I levels, it might not affect intramuscular IGF-I levels sufficiently to trigger growth of this tissue. And perhaps IGF-I that isn't "asked for", i.e., as through pumping iron (which can increase muscle production of IGF-I and its associated receptor) isn't all that useful anyways.

    Just some thoughts.

    To tidy this mess of ideas up for you, casein seems to protect biologically active proteins, such as those found in colostrum (and possibly whey) from destruction/inactivation in the intestine. Thus, adding casein to such products (or leaving milk intact) may be a good thing for your physical apperance and overall health."

    and, the studies. thanks robert.

    casein's protective effect on IGF-I:

    Playford RJ, Woodman AC, Clark P et al. (1993). Effect of luminal growth factor preservation on intestinal growth. Lancet, 342: 843.

    Xian CJ, Shoubridge CA, Read LC (1995). Degradation of IGF-I in the adult rat gastrointestinal tract is limited by a specific antiserum or the dietary protein casein. J Endocrinol, 146: 215.

  5. Good, interesting reading, Biggin. Thanks for sharing.

  6. Originally posted by Sheesh
    Just to add my 2 cents...A somewhat recent (2 years ago)study shows that for those of you interested in losing fat, soy protein might actually be a better choice than whey protein. Even though the study was done in mice, as you know alot things that work on mice work with humans. Check this out:

    Effect of soy and milk whey protein isolates and their hydrolysates on weight reduction in genetically obese mice.
    Author:Aoyama T, Fukui K, Nakamori T, Hashimoto Y, Yamamoto T, Takamatsu K, Sugano M., Volume:64 Issue:12, Page:2594-600 Year:2000 Dec

    The effect on genetically obese mice of a milk whey protein isolate (WPI) and soy protein isolate (SPI) and their hydrolysates (WPI-H, SPI-H) on the rate of body fat disappearance was investigated. Male yellow KK mice were made obese by feeding with a high-fat diet containing 30% fat from 6 to 10 weeks of age. They were then fed with an energy-restricted low fat (5.0%) and high protein (35% WPI, WPI-H, SPI or SPI-H) diet for 2 weeks at the 60% level of energy intake by mice on laboratory feed. During the weight reduction period, the body weight of the WPI, WPI-H, SPI and SPI-H groups changed by -9.1, -9.1, -10.0 and -11.1 g/14 days, respectively, the reduction being significantly lower in the SPI-H group than in the WPI and WPI-H groups. The plasma total cholesterol level was significantly lower with the SPI diet, and the plasma glucose level was lower with the SPI and SPI-H diets than with the WPI and WPI-H diets. Although the body protein content was comparable in all the groups, the body fat content was significantly lower with the SPI diet than with the WPI diet, and was also significantly lower with the SPI-H diet than with the WPI and WPI-H diets. The weight of the perirenal fat pads was significantly lower with the SPI-H diet than with the WPI and WPI-H diets. These results indicate that SPI and SPI-H are suitable protein sources in an energy-restricted diet for treating obesity.
    So would it be beneficial to use soy instead of whey?
    Or whey post workout, and soy for during the day?

    Also, why doesn't anyone just use milk since it has Whey and Casein combined?

  7. Whey for Post WO, will get digested faster.  This is what you want.

    I use Soy for dieting and during the day or in the am after i role out of bed.

    Milk is fine for day use or in non post workout shakes, it slow absorbtion.  Olus, milk has carbs and some people may not wnat to have any carbs except post WO.


  8. Great thread.

  9. Thanks for the reply, good answer
    Do you know of any god Soy Protein Powders?

  10. people bitch, moan, piss and **** themselves over the horrible, awful taste of soy... but I'll tell you something... mix it with milk, sweeten it up just a tad if that's your thing, and it tastes like oatmeal to me... not as thick of course, but I think it tastes really good, I like it. here are some quick suggestions (you'll notice it's hard to find in actual bulk):

    Prolab's Pure Soy- (approx 1 lb for 10 dollars, Prolab is a trustworthy company)

    Met-rx Protein Plus Soy (probably about 25 dollars for 2 lbs, Met-rx ain't bad... not my favorite, but very standard company I believe)

    Optimum Nutrition Opti-Soy (I love my Opt Nut... you know you get what's on the label, they're consistent as hell and cheap to boot. have only used their wheys, but I'd back this)

    Twinlab Vegefuel (my personal favorite because, though I don't use soy now, it's the only one I've ever had experience with. I liked it quite a lot, was easy to mix and drink, *extremely* fine powder... again, just like oatmeal to me, even smelled really good. 1.2 lbs for about 10 bucks)

    Universal Soy Pro (people rag on Universal, but they are old school and I think they're respectable... all supp companies have trusty **** products they pimp in the magazines for the megadollars, but Uni's been around for a long time, and are generally consistent IMO, as well as having some very good standard products (milk and egg proteins, liver tabs, etc). this one's 1.5 lbs for about 13 dollars I guess)

    Protein Customizer (almost forgot about them, as I have yet to order from them. people are generally satisfied though... their soy isolate is 3$ per pound, without anything added... go to the customize page and have fun tinkering to your individual needs)

    any other good products I missed?

  11. Thanks
    a question: Would adding milk defeat the fat burning properties of Soy?
    Considering the fat and carb content?

  12. meh, skim milk... no fat, and the lactose is slower digesting I think than most people realize... it's up to you though, if I mix my **** with water it's gotta be cooooold, and with ice

  13. Would soy taste ok with say a nutrasweet sweetner?
    or that knew sweetner i saw at
    Cause im okay with water, I take my Whey with water

  14. yeah bro, that's what I'm sayin... sweetened even a little bit helps remove much of the bland quality that I think so many people associate with a "bad" taste... give it a try, and good luck.

  15. Thanks man
    I think ill do that.
    The least it could do is have no taste

    and No taste is better than Bad taste :-P

  16. I mix soy with other types of protein, depends if its morning day or night ....

    I buy from P.C.

  17. PC?
    What is thier site?

  18. Originally posted by Havok
    What is thier site?


  19. ohhh duh
    *Havok Slaps himself*

  20. Originally posted by Havok
    ohhh duh
    *Havok Slaps himself*


  21. casein+cold filtered whey isolate+super bovine serum+strawberry acidophilus+orange metamucil= yummy...

  22. after reading the article from robertthoburn about the body's digestion of protein being to slow for the quick absorbtion of whey as post workout to be completely effective i came up with this......

    my meatabolism is sluggish anyway so why not slowly sip a pure whey shake DURING your workout rather than skulling it down as post w/o.
    then it would be entering slower into your system and possibly be more useful as this is a critical time for aminos to be present in your system. maybe even have some digestive enzymes to help it.

    then have a slower absorbing protein as post w/o. the recovery process would already be underway during the w/o so the importance of post w/o would be lessoned slightly.

    i'm no expert though. just trying to make sense from all of this.


  23. What exactly is the difference between an isolate and a concentrate? I thought isolates are absorbed faster, but what exactly is the difference? (I'm wondering why estrogen is not an issue in soy isolate).

  24. says that the isoflavones in so actually reduce estrogen by blocking receptor sites?


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