[anapolack]

i read before just a shake before cardio will help catabolic effects with as little as just 10 grams of carbs............hell,a scoop of protien and water right down the hatch.............**** it how much more fat can your really burn without the catabolism outweighing the rewards anyways

[James]

I used to always do cardio on an empty stomach.

Now I down a bit of protein first.

[THETEST]

What about supplements - I am doing the morning cardio at 65% of max HR, for 45 min to loose fast - but I also take CLA, some BCAA aminos, and some L-Carnitine - then I drink 24 oz of water during the cardio with L Glutimine in it -

[mpkonig]

ok..im starting a cutting cycle tomorrow....would it be bad if i did like 45 to 60 minutes first thing in the morning...and then doing another session later on in the afternoon?? also...should i not do cardio like 5 days on 2 off???


all low intensity on a eliptical with added resistance as i progress through the workout

[jmh80]

It won't be bad Mpkong. I assume you mean you are on androgens for this cut...



Regarding this whole debate of "taking some sort of calories in before cardio" or not - I've seen that, if you can stand it, do the cardio on an empty stomach.
I've had to train myself to be able to do that.
Of course, plenty of ED before helps stymie the appetite!

(I used to get reeeeeeally bad hunger pangs maybe 10 to 15 mins. into a treadmill walking session.)



As far as supps to take on an empty stomach - EC, green tea, albuterol.
I loved Basic Cuts with green tea (or ephedrine if I really wanted to crank it up) - save for the heartburn (from the cayenne pepper).

[mixedup]

OK so if i do cardio at 50%-60% Vo2 max then it is ok to go in on an empty stomach but anything over 60% Vo2 max I will need some carbs is what I am taking from going over the posts?? hope this is correct.

[LakeMountD]

Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.

Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the "crossover" concept

G. A. Brooks and J. Mercier
Department of Human Biodynamics, University of California, Berkeley 94720.

The "crossover" concept represents a theoretical means by which one can understand the effects of exercise intensity and prior endurance training on the balance of carbohydrate (CHO) and lipid metabolism during sustained exercise. According to the crossover concept, endurance training results in muscular biochemical adaptations that enhance lipid oxidation as well as decrease the sympathetic nervous system responses to given submaximal exercise stresses. These adaptations promote lipid oxidation during mild- to moderate-intensity exercise. In contrast, increases in exercise intensity are conceived to increase contraction-induced muscle glycogenolysis, alter the pattern of fiber type recruitment, and increase sympathetic nervous system activity. Therefore the pattern of substrate utilization in an individual at any point in time depends on the interaction between exercise intensity-induced responses (which increase CHO utilization) and endurance training-induced responses (which promote lipid oxidation). The crossover point is the power output at which energy from CHO-derived fuels predominates over energy from lipids, with further increases in power eliciting a relative increment in CHO utilization and a decrement in lipid oxidation. The contemporary literature contains data indicating that, after endurance training, exercise at low intensities (< or = 45% maximal O2 uptake) is accomplished with lipid as the main substrate. In contrast, the literature also contains reports that are interpreted to indicate that during hard-intensity exercise (approximately 75% maximal O2 uptake) CHO is the predominant substrate. Seen within the context of the crossover concept these apparently divergent results are, in fact, consistent.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)




Protein Ingestion Prior to Strength Exercise Affects Blood Hormones and Metabolism.

Applied Sciences
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 37(11):1990-1997, November 2005.
HULMI, JUHA J. 1; VOLEK, JEFF S. 2; SELANNE, HARRI 3; MERO, ANTTI A. 1

Abstract:
Purpose: The effects of protein consumption before strength training session on blood hormones, energy metabolites, RER, and excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) were examined.

Methods: Ten resistance-trained young men consumed either a 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins (PROT) or a noncaloric placebo (P) in a liquid form 30 min before a heavy strength training session (STS) in a crossover design separated by at least 7 d. STS lasted 50 min and included 5 x 1 RM squats, 3 x 10 RM squats and 4 x 10 RM leg presses with 2-, 3-, and 2-min recoveries, respectively. A protein-carbohydrate supplement was consumed after STS in both trials. Venous blood samples were collected before, during, and after STS and oxygen consumption before and after STS.

Results: Serum growth hormone (GH), testosterone, and free fatty acids (FFA) were significantly (P << 0.05) higher in P compared with PROT 5 min after an STS. The calculated area under curve (AUC) of the serum insulin response during an STS was significantly (P < 0.001) higher in PROT compared with P. The EPOC value from 90 to 120 min after an STS was significantly greater in the PROT condition compared with P (P = 0.01), and PROT treatment had a significantly higher RER 2 h postexercise (P = 0.04). The AUC of serum FFA during STS correlated significantly and negatively with RER 10-30 min after STS (r = -0.53, P = 0.02).

Conclusions: Consuming 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins 30 min before an STS significantly decreases serum GH, testosterone, and FFA levels, and increases serum insulin during an STS. Furthermore, the pre-STS protein increased EPOC and RER significantly during 2-h recovery after STS.






Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise
E. F. Coyle, A. E. Jeukendrup, A. J. Wagenmakers and W. H. Saris
Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

We determined whether increased glycolytic flux from hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia directly reduces fatty acid oxidation during exercise. Fatty acid oxidation rates were measured during constant-rate intravenous infusion of trace amounts of a long-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]palmitate; Pal) vs. a medium-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]octanoate; Oct). Six endurance-trained men cycled for 40 min at 50% of maximal O2 uptake 1) after an overnight fast ("fasting") and 2) after ingestion of 1.4 g/kg of glucose at 60 min and again 10 min before exercise (Glc). Glc caused hyperinsulinemia, a preexercise blood glucose of 6 mM, and a 34% reduction in total fat oxidation during exercise due to an approximately equal reduction in oxidation of plasma-free fatty acids (FFA) and intramuscular triglycerides (all P < 0.05). Oxidation of Pal was significantly reduced during Glc compared with fast (i.e., 70.0 +/- 4.1 vs. 86.0 +/- 1.9% of tracer infusion rate; P < 0.05). However, Glc had no effect on Oct oxidation, which is apparently not limited by mitochondrial transport. Furthermore, Glc reduced plasma FFA appearance 36% (P < 0.05), indicating a coordination of effects on adipose tissue and muscle. In summary, substrate oxidation during exercise can be regulated by increased glycolytic flux that is accompanied by a direct inhibition of long-chain fatty acid oxidation. These observations indicate that carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation during exercise.

[mixedup]

[quote=LakeMountD]Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.

Hey Lake question all this is going to change when I'm back on Anabolics right? What I mean is When I am back on cycle I should be able to go back to doing HIIT training and not worrying as much kind of in the same way I can run t3 on cycle and not worry as much about the catabolism of muscle tissue?

[moklepaul]

I've always done mine at night (works better for me schedule wise)

Seems like most people agree mornming is best though. Maybe I'll try it for a month and see if there's noticable benfits.

[OCCFan023]

Originally Posted by moklepaul

I've always done mine at night (works better for me schedule wise)

Seems like most people agree mornming is best though. Maybe I'll try it for a month and see if there's noticable benfits.

I think youll be very happy with the results and may be stuck doing morning over afternoon forever

[massmonster]

Ok, so that would roughtly equate to what heart rate?

[quote=mixedup]

Originally Posted by LakeMountD

Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.

Hey Lake question all this is going to change when I'm back on Anabolics right? What I mean is When I am back on cycle I should be able to go back to doing HIIT training and not worrying as much kind of in the same way I can run t3 on cycle and not worry as much about the catabolism of muscle tissue?

[THETEST]

65% of max Heart Rate for slow long fat burning. Use the simple rule of 220 - your age to get your max heart rate them multiply by the percentage. 80% -85% of max for HIIT

Studies show that 45 min of slow cardio is better at fat burning than HIIT within a few hrs. They are about the same when measured in 24 hrs, but by a week later, HIIT is superior when you measure it.

Personally I use the long slow method - but I combine it with very intense weight training, and I often do another 25-45 min of slow cardio in the evening. So I think I can recover easier with that approach. And I take lots of BCAAs to help burn fat and not muscle. Best of luck to you

[walt]

So according to LakeMountD's post, ingesting protien before weight training is a bad idea?? Am I reading that correctly?? Since it lowers test and Gh output?

[massmonster]

I noticed that too. It contrary to everything I've ever hear about pre-work out nutrition. Hopeing for some clarification...

[THETEST]

In the morning on an empty stomach your body has almost no chance to burn carbs - so it will burn fat and lean muscle mass. I use a strategy to maximize fat burning by taking CLA, 7-Keto, and L-carnitine. Then to save lean mass, I take BCAAs. And finally, to get everything going - during the workout I take 24 oz of water with Citrulline Malate - this opens up blood flow for areobic efficiency. I do the same thing at night, but without the 7-keto since it has a stimulant in it and you do not want them at night. I do not take protein before the workout since blood would go to my stomach for digestion and I do not want that, or any cramps while exercising. I am down to 10% bf but you goal is 5% using those supplements. What do you think?

[massmonster]

How much CM do you take in the 24oz of H2O?? I usually try to get in 2-3 tablespoons pre-wo on cardio days.