POLL -- CARDIO ON EMPTY STOMACH IN MORNING
- 04-18-2006, 11:02 PM
- 04-30-2006, 02:30 PM
- 05-05-2006, 03:55 PM
What about supplements - I am doing the morning cardio at 65% of max HR, for 45 min to loose fast - but I also take CLA, some BCAA aminos, and some L-Carnitine - then I drink 24 oz of water during the cardio with L Glutimine in it -
05-07-2006, 01:23 PM
ok..im starting a cutting cycle tomorrow....would it be bad if i did like 45 to 60 minutes first thing in the morning...and then doing another session later on in the afternoon?? also...should i not do cardio like 5 days on 2 off???
all low intensity on a eliptical with added resistance as i progress through the workout
05-16-2006, 01:13 PM
It won't be bad Mpkong. I assume you mean you are on androgens for this cut...
Regarding this whole debate of "taking some sort of calories in before cardio" or not - I've seen that, if you can stand it, do the cardio on an empty stomach.
I've had to train myself to be able to do that.
Of course, plenty of ED before helps stymie the appetite!
(I used to get reeeeeeally bad hunger pangs maybe 10 to 15 mins. into a treadmill walking session.)
As far as supps to take on an empty stomach - EC, green tea, albuterol.
I loved Basic Cuts with green tea (or ephedrine if I really wanted to crank it up) - save for the heartburn (from the cayenne pepper).
05-23-2006, 10:42 AM
OK so if i do cardio at 50%-60% Vo2 max then it is ok to go in on an empty stomach but anything over 60% Vo2 max I will need some carbs is what I am taking from going over the posts?? hope this is correct.
05-27-2006, 08:37 PM
Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.
Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the "crossover" concept
G. A. Brooks and J. Mercier
Department of Human Biodynamics, University of California, Berkeley 94720.
The "crossover" concept represents a theoretical means by which one can understand the effects of exercise intensity and prior endurance training on the balance of carbohydrate (CHO) and lipid metabolism during sustained exercise. According to the crossover concept, endurance training results in muscular biochemical adaptations that enhance lipid oxidation as well as decrease the sympathetic nervous system responses to given submaximal exercise stresses. These adaptations promote lipid oxidation during mild- to moderate-intensity exercise. In contrast, increases in exercise intensity are conceived to increase contraction-induced muscle glycogenolysis, alter the pattern of fiber type recruitment, and increase sympathetic nervous system activity. Therefore the pattern of substrate utilization in an individual at any point in time depends on the interaction between exercise intensity-induced responses (which increase CHO utilization) and endurance training-induced responses (which promote lipid oxidation). The crossover point is the power output at which energy from CHO-derived fuels predominates over energy from lipids, with further increases in power eliciting a relative increment in CHO utilization and a decrement in lipid oxidation. The contemporary literature contains data indicating that, after endurance training, exercise at low intensities (< or = 45% maximal O2 uptake) is accomplished with lipid as the main substrate. In contrast, the literature also contains reports that are interpreted to indicate that during hard-intensity exercise (approximately 75% maximal O2 uptake) CHO is the predominant substrate. Seen within the context of the crossover concept these apparently divergent results are, in fact, consistent.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
Protein Ingestion Prior to Strength Exercise Affects Blood Hormones and Metabolism.
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 37(11):1990-1997, November 2005.
HULMI, JUHA J. 1; VOLEK, JEFF S. 2; SELANNE, HARRI 3; MERO, ANTTI A. 1
Purpose: The effects of protein consumption before strength training session on blood hormones, energy metabolites, RER, and excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) were examined.
Methods: Ten resistance-trained young men consumed either a 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins (PROT) or a noncaloric placebo (P) in a liquid form 30 min before a heavy strength training session (STS) in a crossover design separated by at least 7 d. STS lasted 50 min and included 5 x 1 RM squats, 3 x 10 RM squats and 4 x 10 RM leg presses with 2-, 3-, and 2-min recoveries, respectively. A protein-carbohydrate supplement was consumed after STS in both trials. Venous blood samples were collected before, during, and after STS and oxygen consumption before and after STS.
Results: Serum growth hormone (GH), testosterone, and free fatty acids (FFA) were significantly (P << 0.05) higher in P compared with PROT 5 min after an STS. The calculated area under curve (AUC) of the serum insulin response during an STS was significantly (P < 0.001) higher in PROT compared with P. The EPOC value from 90 to 120 min after an STS was significantly greater in the PROT condition compared with P (P = 0.01), and PROT treatment had a significantly higher RER 2 h postexercise (P = 0.04). The AUC of serum FFA during STS correlated significantly and negatively with RER 10-30 min after STS (r = -0.53, P = 0.02).
Conclusions: Consuming 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins 30 min before an STS significantly decreases serum GH, testosterone, and FFA levels, and increases serum insulin during an STS. Furthermore, the pre-STS protein increased EPOC and RER significantly during 2-h recovery after STS.
Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise
E. F. Coyle, A. E. Jeukendrup, A. J. Wagenmakers and W. H. Saris
Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.
We determined whether increased glycolytic flux from hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia directly reduces fatty acid oxidation during exercise. Fatty acid oxidation rates were measured during constant-rate intravenous infusion of trace amounts of a long-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]palmitate; Pal) vs. a medium-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]octanoate; Oct). Six endurance-trained men cycled for 40 min at 50% of maximal O2 uptake 1) after an overnight fast ("fasting") and 2) after ingestion of 1.4 g/kg of glucose at 60 min and again 10 min before exercise (Glc). Glc caused hyperinsulinemia, a preexercise blood glucose of 6 mM, and a 34% reduction in total fat oxidation during exercise due to an approximately equal reduction in oxidation of plasma-free fatty acids (FFA) and intramuscular triglycerides (all P < 0.05). Oxidation of Pal was significantly reduced during Glc compared with fast (i.e., 70.0 +/- 4.1 vs. 86.0 +/- 1.9% of tracer infusion rate; P < 0.05). However, Glc had no effect on Oct oxidation, which is apparently not limited by mitochondrial transport. Furthermore, Glc reduced plasma FFA appearance 36% (P < 0.05), indicating a coordination of effects on adipose tissue and muscle. In summary, substrate oxidation during exercise can be regulated by increased glycolytic flux that is accompanied by a direct inhibition of long-chain fatty acid oxidation. These observations indicate that carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation during exercise.
06-11-2006, 08:45 AM
[QUOTE=LakeMountD]Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.
Hey Lake question all this is going to change when I'm back on Anabolics right? What I mean is When I am back on cycle I should be able to go back to doing HIIT training and not worrying as much kind of in the same way I can run t3 on cycle and not worry as much about the catabolism of muscle tissue?
06-28-2006, 01:39 AM
I've always done mine at night (works better for me schedule wise)
Seems like most people agree mornming is best though. Maybe I'll try it for a month and see if there's noticable benfits.
NTBM 3 month Transformation contest:
06-28-2006, 08:26 AM
I think youll be very happy with the results and may be stuck doing morning over afternoon foreverOriginally Posted by moklepaul
06-28-2006, 09:33 AM
Ok, so that would roughtly equate to what heart rate?
[QUOTE=mixedup]Originally Posted by LakeMountD
06-28-2006, 10:01 AM
65% of max Heart Rate for slow long fat burning. Use the simple rule of 220 - your age to get your max heart rate them multiply by the percentage. 80% -85% of max for HIIT
Studies show that 45 min of slow cardio is better at fat burning than HIIT within a few hrs. They are about the same when measured in 24 hrs, but by a week later, HIIT is superior when you measure it.
Personally I use the long slow method - but I combine it with very intense weight training, and I often do another 25-45 min of slow cardio in the evening. So I think I can recover easier with that approach. And I take lots of BCAAs to help burn fat and not muscle. Best of luck to you
07-03-2006, 10:45 AM
So according to LakeMountD's post, ingesting protien before weight training is a bad idea?? Am I reading that correctly?? Since it lowers test and Gh output?
07-03-2006, 11:34 AM
I noticed that too. It contrary to everything I've ever hear about pre-work out nutrition. Hopeing for some clarification...
07-05-2006, 09:18 AM
In the morning on an empty stomach your body has almost no chance to burn carbs - so it will burn fat and lean muscle mass. I use a strategy to maximize fat burning by taking CLA, 7-Keto, and L-carnitine. Then to save lean mass, I take BCAAs. And finally, to get everything going - during the workout I take 24 oz of water with Citrulline Malate - this opens up blood flow for areobic efficiency. I do the same thing at night, but without the 7-keto since it has a stimulant in it and you do not want them at night. I do not take protein before the workout since blood would go to my stomach for digestion and I do not want that, or any cramps while exercising. I am down to 10% bf but you goal is 5% using those supplements. What do you think?
07-05-2006, 09:44 AM
How much CM do you take in the 24oz of H2O?? I usually try to get in 2-3 tablespoons pre-wo on cardio days.
07-05-2006, 10:00 AM
I just take one very small scoop - I use Stamin02 - it tastes like cherry coolade but it does the trick. It is not as good as ephredia or caffeine but it helps endurance. good luck to you
07-08-2006, 01:27 PM
I currently run for about 25-30 minutes every morning outdoors. I used to run post-weight training on the treadmill, but wanted to leave the gym earlier. I have been running for bout 8 weeks now, basically I just want to lose the fat on my stomach. I don't look as big as I used to in my clothes but my stomach area has definitely gotten smaller. I am 6 feet and used to weigh 215 prior to running the past 8 weeks, have not check my weight since. Been lifting for bout 7 years off & on. Currently not taking any supplements. What can I do to continue to burn fat around the stomach area but not lose so much size? I would apperciate anyone's response/advise, thanks in advance.
07-30-2006, 05:11 AM
I finally started doing cardio (HIIT) about 5 days ago and I am down 3 lbs. I hope it keeps close to this
08-01-2006, 11:15 AM
I lost the most weight on a simple ECA stack- 25/200 E/C- in the morning on an empty stomach. The key to avoiding nausea on stimulants is grabbing a full water bottle and drinking the whole thing when you swallow the pills to dilute the solution in your stomach as well as you can. The problem I had with this is that I lost "weight"... including some muscle mass and I was still lifting every afternoon.
I've changed my cardio regimen a little bit as well as my pre-workout supplements. I had been taking an Animal Cuts pack every morning along with BCAA's before morning cardio and doing about 30-45 minutes of cardio- elliptical and bike. I recently changed up both factors becaause I was burning twice as much gas in my SUV going into town to get to the gym in the morning and afternoon and I only have a treadmill here at home which drives me nuts since it throws my natural stride off, so I changed my routine...
You good Military people will like this one:
I've been doing a 2.25-mile ruck march around the farm land that makes up my neighborhood. For those of you who don't know, its just walking (usually at a brisk pace) while loaded up with all your gear. No, I'm not putting on all my gear every morning, just a large ALICE pack with a collection of junk including 4 small weight plates around 5 lbs each, a gallon of water in assorted canteens, flashlight, bodyblind poncho, etc. My first ruck weight in the small ALICE pack was 34lbs and I haven't weighed the larger one so I imagine its around 40lbs with the larger bag/frame and a little bit more junk in it. I keep forgetting to get my heart rate since I never bring a watch with me, but based of respiratory rate, it not in the intensive range, although I am pretty worn out by it by the time I get home.
For preworkout supplements, I switched from the Animal pack since its too many individual pills to my other fat burner- SciFit Thermogen II. Main ingredients are 10mg ephedrine/serving along with a bunch of funky roots and caffeine from various sources. I'm still on the BCAA's but I just killed the bottle today so another is on the list for order. As far as results for this routine, I've only lost a half inch of girth around my waist in 2 weeks, which from what I can tell by measurements of other body parts is all fat. I'm still lifting in the evenings but I'm not on anything so I'm not pushing a whole lot of volume to risk setting me back recovery wise. I usually do a half hour of cardio- running or elliptical- after lifting. Results are slow compared to HIIT, but they're not near as catabolic.
09-10-2006, 06:31 PM
I line up with the "Don't Do It" side... Despite the abstracts from LakeMountD (which I appreciate - thanks!) there are a handful of other concerns. While you may burn predominantly lipids at intensities < 45% VO2max, there's a question of how the body as a whole responds to being worked in a fasted state, and what it does to your overall nutritional plan.
For years we've been told by multiple sources that consuming many small meals per day is helpful if you want to achieve a relatively lean and muscular physique. Friends and I have tried this approach and know that it works. Whether you believe it has to do with insulin management, cortisol reduction, nitrogen balance or the phase of the moon is irrelevant - it works. It seems to me, then, if you get up, down some coffee or whatever, drive to the gym and launch into a 30-45-60 minute low intensity cardio session, you are acting against the idea of keeping your body as nourished as possible 'round the clock.
When I have tried cardio on an empty stomach (yes, I tried it, too) I notice that my internal temperature seems to stay lower, and my perspiration is lower. When I do it in a nourished state, I sweat like mad and get noticably warm. That says to me, heightened metabolic rate, which means more long-term elevated metabolic rate, and more fat burn in the time following the actual exercise.
Is anyone aware of studies which show metabolic elevation changes over a 12-24 hour period between fasted cardio and nourished cardio?
09-10-2006, 07:05 PM
I am almost to 5% BF now, and have a recommendation for you all to consider if you are looking for a 6-pack: That is the only thing I know for specific fat burning on a body part. I works, but remember you have to exercise with it on. I put it on before my workout, then tack BCAA between the workout and cardio. 30 min on a stair stepper after the workout - and you will definately see results. HOWEVER, you really need to manage your diet. To really cut you not only need to eat clean, you need to watch total calories. I started out on chicken and burgers, 3 tbs flax, and 5 oz of sweet potato each meal for 6 meals, then every two weeks changed up - no burgers, then add fish to replace some of the checken, then to replace all the protein shakes, then cut the flax down, then reduce the carbs. It is painful - but who said it would be easy. My point is - cardio along aint gonna do it.
09-11-2006, 08:58 AM
You are right in that this type of early morning cardio seems to work the body in an unnourished state. It's what forces the body to give up the most during the workout. In terms of metabolism, your body has had all night to digest your last meal from the previous day (assuming you didn't get up for any midnight snacks), and the carbs, fats, and protein (energy sources) that were readily available to the body through the central digestive system and the blood stream have since been burned or stored by the time you awake the next day. Protein is used up in rebuilding muscle, hair, and poop. Carbs and fats are burned as primary fuels throughout the night and the surplus is stored in body fat or the liver (what's left of the carbs). This lack of remaining digested product what forces your body to look to what else it has to burn besides food- ie body fat and muscle proteins.Originally Posted by PSBigJoey
In terms of preworkout nutrition, we use the above situation to plan our supplement intake prior to exercise. We take BCAA's to prevent muscle breakdown and direct our metabolic crosshairs at body fat stores instead of muscle proteins. Stimulants catalyze metabolic rate during exercise, which is why its so important to have BCAA's in that preworkout formula- you risk accelerating muscle loss without them. Beyond these two, there are endless herbal supplements you can use that are proven/believed to help burn fat, and water of course is a necessity.
As for the hightened state of performance we feel when training at or above sufficient nutritional nourishment, this is best for the body when you don't want to lose anything. High intensity athletes training for sports that require the body to be constantly fed in order to perform during workouts need this kind of nutrition day in and day out. The key word here is PERFORM. Loading our body with sufficient nutrition provides us with fuel beyond what is just stored in the liver, body fat, and currently circulating through the blood stream. During the exercise, our previous meal is being digested and replentishing these energy sources. A higher level of performance can be achieved during the workout in terms of intensity and endurance.
The choice in these options is up to the athlete and what their goal is. This thread wouldn't be in discussion if we weren't, by a majority, concerned with simply burning fat off for the benefits of our personal physiques. How well we perform during these fat-burning workouts is not our primary goal. The physiological effect of the workout is. For the athletes who's primary goal is to achieve continuously higher level increments of performance in their specific sport, they need that sufficient nutritional nourishment to perform during their workouts- to complete specific exercise repetitions at higher intensities and larger total set numbers. Its why there are Olympic swimmers, marathon runners, and Tour de France cyclists consuming 6000-9000 calories per day during training and there are recreational or professional athletes who are consuming a flat 2200 and training over the threshold that encroaches over the body's nourishment.
09-11-2006, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the input, Makodhardie. When it comes to anti-catabolics, I'm aware that BCAA's and L-Glutamine are supported by peer-reviewed research.
To me, the question of fat burning is both a short term and long term question. How to get it off, and how to reasonably insure that it stays off. For the latter, I like the approach of increasing lean mass and thereby boosting BMR as well as the obvious balance of nutritional intake and expenditure (thermodynamics ultimately rule us all).
For some - for many - additional lean mass is not a plus. Cyclists, for example, don't need the additional mass, nor do long-distance runners. But for the purposes of the thread, I was just looking at what burns off fat better, and the anti-catabolics, while helpful, don't seem to me to adequately block catabolism. If you know of any research to the contrary, I'd really like to see it - I'm certainly open to changing my mind.
09-11-2006, 01:16 PM
09-29-2006, 10:17 AM
AM cardio (NOT AM WEIGHT LIFTING) is the best for cutting up on an empty stomach.
When I switched from powerlifting to bodybuilding in 2000 I didnt change my low rep workout, my 3 day split or my diet (everything in sight) I just got up 5X a day and did sprints on a track (sprint straight away, walk the curves). Before that stayed around 12% BF while PL'ing but got down to about 6% with like I said no change in workout or diet in about I would say 3 months. 3 winter months in Colorado which is the worse time to try to cut weight (winter in colorado is really like oct. to June, but this was about Jan to Mar).
09-29-2006, 10:19 AM
another trick after am cadio, dont eat any any carbs for 2-3 hours.
10-15-2006, 03:48 PM
OK -- Giving it a try...
Let it never be said I'm not open to argument. I'm giving the empty stomach cardio thing a try for the next two weeks. I'll be looking for a change in the rate of fat loss, and will report back.
10-16-2006, 05:08 AM
10-16-2006, 08:50 AM
In addition to the cardio already being performed, I'll be adding 1 hour of 65%-70% interval treadmill.
Just found out my scheduling for the week won't make it unfed EVERY day - so my real test of this may have to wait until later in the year. But I still should get a sense of change in rate of fat loss.
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