POLL -- CARDIO ON EMPTY STOMACH IN MORNING
- 01-07-2006, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by B5150
Something that has been working well for me lately has been the addition of BCAA's (XTEND) to my pre-, during, post-workout nutrition. I am a total cynic so the whole placebo thing is usually lost on me because I assume things won't work, but I have noticed a difference in recovery time when I include them.Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
- 01-24-2006, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by excalibur
- 01-24-2006, 08:08 AM
Why not spare blood aminos acid-pool and burn even more fat, by adding some carbs, by generating more energy at the sama pulse?
01-26-2006, 12:48 AM
- 5'10" 180 lbs.
- Join Date
- Mar 2004
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
Mas - those aminos will be converted to glucose if taking for pre-breakfast cardio.
Better to just eat carbs if you want to eat anything.
Read Bobo's posts on pages 1 through 3.
01-27-2006, 04:28 AM
best way to burn calories in the morning your low in carbs and high in energy burn the fat easily . i have a friend that get up at 6am and puts a garbage bag on his body and runs tell he sweats and he has lost 15pds than again he is fitness freak.
01-27-2006, 10:10 AM
I drink a glass of NO Explode at 4:30am and do my cardio at 5:00. I usually do an hour on the eliptical, and can lose 2-4 lbs a week if I do cardio Mon - Fri.
02-07-2006, 04:58 PM
I've only been working out and eating clean the past 4 months, and my results have been pretty good...
I'm 17 and 6'4 172 lbs with >9% body fat. I've gained over 12lbs of muscle and lost a few fat lbs not sure the net in the past 4 months. Recently I have started doing 45 minutes of high inclined walking where I burn 500+cals before training sessions. If i do that 5-6 times a week is that too much?...and what are the ideal types of carbs I should eat in the afternoon before cardio say around 5-6pm to prevent a catabolic effect? Thanks in advance
02-09-2006, 11:17 PM
Doing cardio in the morning is an excellent idea, only if you are cutting. If you take a protein shake before you run, two things might happen.
1. you might not feel like running, because you have 60 grams of protein in your pouch.
2. The next is the worst thing that any body builder wants, and that is the conversion of protein to sugar.
The reason your body will do that is because the peptidases in your stomach will recognize the protein in your stomach as a possible sources for energy. We all know the body needs energy so if you didnt have that "possible" meal in your stomach, your body will more than likely pull from another source-fat. Fat gives off around 9 calories per gram. So by forcing your body to use its stored energy you will shred body fat.
After your cardio dont eat right away, because although you are done doing your cardio, your body is still in lipolysis (the breakdown of fats and fatty acids). Wait for 30 minutes, then slam your protein shake.
02-10-2006, 04:55 PM
Excellent explanation!Originally Posted by Socrates44
02-11-2006, 03:49 PM
I've just started playing around with this. I've always felt completely miserable trying to do worthwhile amounts of morning cardio on an empty stomach. Until recently, I had been taking a regular size protein shake- 24grams/8oz and doing around a half hour of high intensity, followed by a another shake and a real meal to start the day off. I've stepped it up a lot recently to see some real results, so I'm ECA'ing my cardio workouts and that brings in another problem- can't have strong stimulants on an empty stomach. I tried a mix this morning that really worked for me:
-8oz protein shake
-handful of low fat saltines
-about 15-20 oz of water preworkout
-30 min bike, high intensity (423 cal)
-30 min elliptical, high intensity (535 cal)
*about 35-40oz water during workout
I was worried that the protein shake alone wouldn't be thick enough to keep the stimulants from making me naucious so I decided to try the crackers to get some solid in there. Worked great. On another note, I had an evening cardio session same as this one but different preworkout meal and I was looking at girls on machines next to me as food instead of eye candy and intensity motivation. I came home and tried to eat as slow as I could so I'd fill up at a reasonable rate and not destroy all the work I'd just done in the gym. The sustinence in the preworkout meal did enough to keep me from draining out real fast before I was close to being done. I felt like I could have gone another 30 minute interval if I wanted but I'm afraid that my overall appetite will start to ramp up and be hard to control if I do too much on a daily basis. Diet and exercise are what makes the results so I don't want to destroy one trying to conquer the other with too much glory.
02-16-2006, 01:30 PM
This is a myth. your appetite may increase slightly but nowhere near enough to counteract the calorie loss providing by exercising.Originally Posted by Makodhardie
02-16-2006, 04:52 PM
Yes, you're probably right on that... I'm going off my experiences from college swimming. I was never able to lose much weight last year during the season even after going to doubles and meet season that had us in the water for intensive exercise 6 days a week. I didn't think my diet was that outrageous, but then again, I have a heat maintenance problem and my VO2 max is a lot higher than any other males on the team. At 2 hours a piece, I'm sure we burned plenty of calories per workout, however with the ****ty standards of the indoor pool (low oxygen availability and high heat- 91 degrees F air temp and around 80 some water temp), I may very well have been suffocating during sets rather than maintaining a healthy aerobic respiratory condition which would deffinitely have affects on fat loss efficiency. Since I've retired, I never get in the pool anymore and all my cardio is done on machines where I can monitor my heart rate to keep my exercise from crossing the anaerobic threshold.
As far as the empty stomach experimentation, I've been able to get it down to no food in the morning on ECA. I've been keeping a water bottle in bed with me that I try take drinks from during the night when I wake up to roll over or get up early in the morning to piss. Once I'm up for the day/workout, I'll drink as much as I comfortably can and then brew a cup of green tea that I've started relying on for my caffeine doseage (much less than most ECA stacks- about 30/200mgs). If I'm really dead before a workout, I take a Sobe Adrenaline... I love the things and I know they have enough stimulant in them between the caffeine and guarana. They have a few calories but they also make a sugar free version that's not bad... I think all the energy drink companies are doing this. Red Bull has one for sure. In addition to the ECA and plenty of water, I take a dose of B vitamins- B6 and 12. On days when I don't have time to get up early and split cardio and lifting to do doubles, I take my fish oils with my preworkout meal.
On increasing daily cardio above 1 full hour, I haven't tried it yet, but perhaps when I get to an off day for lifting this weekend I'll run it out if I'm feeling good... Just as long as I don't have any extra school work to do- I'll fall asleep doing it otherwise.
02-20-2006, 02:49 PM
May I suggest taking Scivation's Neurostim +C 30min before your morning cardio?
Would the ALCAR and Choline help the body use fat for energy?
02-20-2006, 03:20 PM
I was looking into other supplements since companies have started putting new products out with ephedra in them. I'll probably try something that has the correct EC dosages in it plus all the extra bells and whistles for fat burning- chocamine, yohimbe, sour orange, elf juice, etc. My previous fat burning supplement stack was:
-SAN Tight- stimulant based
-SAN Blaze- non-stimulant
-SesaMax- Sesamin and Flax see oils
I'm out of everything now but a few pills of Tight and I had only planned to cut for another week before I start bulking again. I'll have to shop around for some of these new things that are out but for right now, I'm waiting for my bulking stuff to come in.
I tried something different again yesterday since Sundays are playdays with cardio only for me. I got up and had a decent breakfast- protein shake, cup of yogurt, and a couple other things with moderate carbs but I couldn't remember what. Then I took my usual dosage for preworkout that I do on morning cardio only splits. My heart rate has come down considerably in the last week while working the same intensities on various machines- about 10-20 bpm average depending on the machines. I did vertical bike for 30 minutes, elliptical for 15 and stair stepper for 15 with very high intensity. I had trouble drinking as much as I sweat and with the last two, I ramped intensity and rpm much higher than normal.... which is why I did the 15 minute intervals. After all that, I did 20 minutes moderate intensity cool down on the horizontal bike. I felt like I was getting out of a dryland session at swim camp all over again and I kept my appetite under control until around 9-10pm.... then I was in trouble with the kitchen. I'm sure that the overall intake for the day wasn't 1000 calories in surplus so I should have been fine, but it wasn't what I was shooting for. I might try doing the same high volume session tomorrow with more moderate intensity instead of high and see what that does for my appetite.
Brent, I'll look into the Scivation Neurostim. Thanks for the suggestion.
02-20-2006, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by PiKappaWRX
i agree 100%. i hate that feeling so no matter what i get some food in me before i work out. mostly protein. but personally i hate anything in the AM. I normally dont wake up until 10 or 11 am. but im still in collage so its easy to do that.
03-07-2006, 02:13 AM
I do not think it is good at all. Since you have not eaten at all, you are using energy from your muscles rather than fat...
03-08-2006, 01:05 PM
03-08-2006, 03:30 PM
Cardio in the AM on an empty stomach has always worked for me during my cut phase. Of course, everybody is different. I always make sure I take a hefty dose of BCAA's (xtend) beforehand.
03-11-2006, 08:57 PM
soo....it just depends i guess on what you feel like doing mostly. some say yes and some say no. hmmm??
03-21-2006, 03:31 AM
You just have to try and see what works for you. For me, it works at a high body fat %, but I've been around 12% for months now and it doesnt help at all. I need the high intensity cardio to go sub 12% whereas a very high bf % would be very beneficial with low intensity morning cardio.Originally Posted by raudyboy3
03-29-2006, 08:27 AM
When I was powerlifting, I had to maintain a low body weight with very low BF%, around 5%. This was so I could compete in the 181 class, the only one I could win at (I'm 5'8"). Did low intensity cardio every morning, mostly walking, after drinking a cup of black coffee. You could use some other stim. Avoided high intensity cardio for the most part, usually just once a week to maintain fitness, after eating some carbs. This went on for years with no problems. I wasn't big though, training weight was around 185 - 190, just strong for my weight.
03-29-2006, 02:23 PM
I'm assuming your diet was absolutely perfect which reduced the need for high intensity.Originally Posted by Operator
03-29-2006, 05:56 PM
You still cutting Scotty?Originally Posted by scott72
I am really sick and tired of cutting.I have been at it since Mid Oct and still working at it now. Sitting on 214-215 right now.And about 17.5-17.6 bf.Guess that serves me right. I shouldnt have ever let myself get into the 280's.
03-30-2006, 12:08 AM
Yes, very strict on my diet with protein/fruit shakes, chicken breasts and vegetables, and so on. Always made sure I had plenty of good fats in my diet though, just no junk foods. That did get old after awhile, which is probably why I'm no longer doing it.Originally Posted by scott72
03-30-2006, 01:51 PM
BOBO- are you saying that things like glutamine and amino acid supplements are pretty much useless and not worth the money, or are there times where you find them beneficial? I have read a lot and I have read several times that the "best time" to use aminos is right before cardio and obviously it is useless to take them at this time. Is there any time they are worth it? Thx.Originally Posted by Bobo
03-31-2006, 11:23 AM
Hey Kali, whats up bro. I took an 8 week break from cutting and hung around maintenance. I got tired of it too and wasn't getting anywhere anyway. I just kicked it back into gear today for my push to 9-10% for this summer. Right now I'm around 12.2%.Originally Posted by Kaliman91
Thats great to hear your that low. I hear ya, it seems like a prison sentence after awhile when your cutting for months and months. I guess it motivates ya to not let yourself get that big again.
You ready for baseball? I think my Brewers are really gonna push your cards this year for the division. ESPN has them as the sleeper team of the year. Pitching is deep as hell as long as Sheetsie stays healthy. I miss talking baseball with you guys at the "other" site.
03-31-2006, 11:26 AM
I hear ya. Gotta take a break from it everynow and then. I did that, now I'm ready to charge back into it. Beach weather is fast approaching!Originally Posted by Operator
04-04-2006, 03:09 PM
It takes the stomach around 2-4 hours to breakdown solid food into something called chyme. The stomach does little to no absorption of your nutrients. Its job is to hold the fuel and break it down into a usable source. Chyme is the mixture that goes into the duodenum (1st part of the small intestine), this is where the magic begins. However, if you drink a shake or a liquid MRP before morning cardio this might slow down your bodies ability to use its stored adipose tissue for its main fuel source.
Verdict- If you wanna eat before cardio make it a good one. Some eggs, oats and a lean breakfast meat. If you wanna wait, that is good too, but if you wait your meal should be a mixture of solid and liquid macros. I would reccomend a 50 gram protein shake with Flax and a cup of oats. This gives you the satiety from the solid food and the resorption of protein and good carbs your body craves after a workout.
04-05-2006, 01:10 PM
A lot of this stuff has already been adressed by BOBO starting on like page 2 of this thread, and it seems to make a lot of sense with regards what to eat before cardio and what to eat depending on the type of cardio done whether its carbs or nothing at all.
04-12-2006, 04:40 PM
04-19-2006, 12:02 AM
i read before just a shake before cardio will help catabolic effects with as little as just 10 grams of carbs............hell,a scoop of protien and water right down the hatch.............**** it how much more fat can your really burn without the catabolism outweighing the rewards anyways
04-30-2006, 03:30 PM
I used to always do cardio on an empty stomach.
Now I down a bit of protein first.
05-05-2006, 04:55 PM
What about supplements - I am doing the morning cardio at 65% of max HR, for 45 min to loose fast - but I also take CLA, some BCAA aminos, and some L-Carnitine - then I drink 24 oz of water during the cardio with L Glutimine in it -
05-07-2006, 02:23 PM
ok..im starting a cutting cycle tomorrow....would it be bad if i did like 45 to 60 minutes first thing in the morning...and then doing another session later on in the afternoon?? also...should i not do cardio like 5 days on 2 off???
all low intensity on a eliptical with added resistance as i progress through the workout
05-16-2006, 02:13 PM
- 5'10" 180 lbs.
- Join Date
- Mar 2004
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
It won't be bad Mpkong. I assume you mean you are on androgens for this cut...
Regarding this whole debate of "taking some sort of calories in before cardio" or not - I've seen that, if you can stand it, do the cardio on an empty stomach.
I've had to train myself to be able to do that.
Of course, plenty of ED before helps stymie the appetite!
(I used to get reeeeeeally bad hunger pangs maybe 10 to 15 mins. into a treadmill walking session.)
As far as supps to take on an empty stomach - EC, green tea, albuterol.
I loved Basic Cuts with green tea (or ephedrine if I really wanted to crank it up) - save for the heartburn (from the cayenne pepper).
05-23-2006, 11:42 AM
OK so if i do cardio at 50%-60% Vo2 max then it is ok to go in on an empty stomach but anything over 60% Vo2 max I will need some carbs is what I am taking from going over the posts?? hope this is correct.
05-27-2006, 09:37 PM
Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.
Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the "crossover" concept
G. A. Brooks and J. Mercier
Department of Human Biodynamics, University of California, Berkeley 94720.
The "crossover" concept represents a theoretical means by which one can understand the effects of exercise intensity and prior endurance training on the balance of carbohydrate (CHO) and lipid metabolism during sustained exercise. According to the crossover concept, endurance training results in muscular biochemical adaptations that enhance lipid oxidation as well as decrease the sympathetic nervous system responses to given submaximal exercise stresses. These adaptations promote lipid oxidation during mild- to moderate-intensity exercise. In contrast, increases in exercise intensity are conceived to increase contraction-induced muscle glycogenolysis, alter the pattern of fiber type recruitment, and increase sympathetic nervous system activity. Therefore the pattern of substrate utilization in an individual at any point in time depends on the interaction between exercise intensity-induced responses (which increase CHO utilization) and endurance training-induced responses (which promote lipid oxidation). The crossover point is the power output at which energy from CHO-derived fuels predominates over energy from lipids, with further increases in power eliciting a relative increment in CHO utilization and a decrement in lipid oxidation. The contemporary literature contains data indicating that, after endurance training, exercise at low intensities (< or = 45% maximal O2 uptake) is accomplished with lipid as the main substrate. In contrast, the literature also contains reports that are interpreted to indicate that during hard-intensity exercise (approximately 75% maximal O2 uptake) CHO is the predominant substrate. Seen within the context of the crossover concept these apparently divergent results are, in fact, consistent.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
Protein Ingestion Prior to Strength Exercise Affects Blood Hormones and Metabolism.
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 37(11):1990-1997, November 2005.
HULMI, JUHA J. 1; VOLEK, JEFF S. 2; SELANNE, HARRI 3; MERO, ANTTI A. 1
Purpose: The effects of protein consumption before strength training session on blood hormones, energy metabolites, RER, and excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) were examined.
Methods: Ten resistance-trained young men consumed either a 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins (PROT) or a noncaloric placebo (P) in a liquid form 30 min before a heavy strength training session (STS) in a crossover design separated by at least 7 d. STS lasted 50 min and included 5 x 1 RM squats, 3 x 10 RM squats and 4 x 10 RM leg presses with 2-, 3-, and 2-min recoveries, respectively. A protein-carbohydrate supplement was consumed after STS in both trials. Venous blood samples were collected before, during, and after STS and oxygen consumption before and after STS.
Results: Serum growth hormone (GH), testosterone, and free fatty acids (FFA) were significantly (P << 0.05) higher in P compared with PROT 5 min after an STS. The calculated area under curve (AUC) of the serum insulin response during an STS was significantly (P < 0.001) higher in PROT compared with P. The EPOC value from 90 to 120 min after an STS was significantly greater in the PROT condition compared with P (P = 0.01), and PROT treatment had a significantly higher RER 2 h postexercise (P = 0.04). The AUC of serum FFA during STS correlated significantly and negatively with RER 10-30 min after STS (r = -0.53, P = 0.02).
Conclusions: Consuming 25 g of whey and caseinate proteins 30 min before an STS significantly decreases serum GH, testosterone, and FFA levels, and increases serum insulin during an STS. Furthermore, the pre-STS protein increased EPOC and RER significantly during 2-h recovery after STS.
Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise
E. F. Coyle, A. E. Jeukendrup, A. J. Wagenmakers and W. H. Saris
Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.
We determined whether increased glycolytic flux from hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia directly reduces fatty acid oxidation during exercise. Fatty acid oxidation rates were measured during constant-rate intravenous infusion of trace amounts of a long-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]palmitate; Pal) vs. a medium-chain fatty acid ([1-13C]octanoate; Oct). Six endurance-trained men cycled for 40 min at 50% of maximal O2 uptake 1) after an overnight fast ("fasting") and 2) after ingestion of 1.4 g/kg of glucose at 60 min and again 10 min before exercise (Glc). Glc caused hyperinsulinemia, a preexercise blood glucose of 6 mM, and a 34% reduction in total fat oxidation during exercise due to an approximately equal reduction in oxidation of plasma-free fatty acids (FFA) and intramuscular triglycerides (all P < 0.05). Oxidation of Pal was significantly reduced during Glc compared with fast (i.e., 70.0 +/- 4.1 vs. 86.0 +/- 1.9% of tracer infusion rate; P < 0.05). However, Glc had no effect on Oct oxidation, which is apparently not limited by mitochondrial transport. Furthermore, Glc reduced plasma FFA appearance 36% (P < 0.05), indicating a coordination of effects on adipose tissue and muscle. In summary, substrate oxidation during exercise can be regulated by increased glycolytic flux that is accompanied by a direct inhibition of long-chain fatty acid oxidation. These observations indicate that carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation during exercise.
06-11-2006, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE=LakeMountD]Bottom line is keep the workouts to less then or equal to 45% VO2 Max for the best fat burning results that wont destroy muscle mass.
Hey Lake question all this is going to change when I'm back on Anabolics right? What I mean is When I am back on cycle I should be able to go back to doing HIIT training and not worrying as much kind of in the same way I can run t3 on cycle and not worry as much about the catabolism of muscle tissue?
06-28-2006, 02:39 AM
- 6'0" 190 lbs.
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
I've always done mine at night (works better for me schedule wise)
Seems like most people agree mornming is best though. Maybe I'll try it for a month and see if there's noticable benfits.
**** 3 month Transformation contest:
06-28-2006, 09:26 AM
- 6'4" 210 lbs.
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
I think youll be very happy with the results and may be stuck doing morning over afternoon foreverOriginally Posted by moklepaul
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