Atkins Diet Inherent Flaws

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Without trying to sound rude in any way....erm yes you can!! That is manage insulin...keeping it relatively low whilst ingesting a higher calorie count.
    Ok I'll bite. Tell me what your normal insulin levels are...


  2. The measurement of my normal levels of insulin are important because?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    The measurement of my normal levels of insulin are important because?
    Because you said you manage it to keep it relatively low. So what is low and how do you know it is actually that if you do not measure it? Would you just put 'some' gasoline in your car if you had an important drive to make? Would'nt you want some idea of how much you needed? The only way I know of to measure insulin is via a C-peptide test at a lab. Do you get these done on a regular basis?

    Look I am being somewhat rhetorical here. Obviously you are not doing any of this. Am I simply trying to get you to look at the issue from a perspective that is different from the oversimplified one typically found in BB circles. People that claim that they keep their insulin low or that they are insulin resistant/sensitive without any quantitative (ie lab work) are at best, making educated guesses. At worst they are talking out of their... well you know.

    Caloric data and body dimension data (weight and measurements) on the other hand are easily obtained and hence are applicable concepts for bodyweight management.

    I will admit that I bought into this oversimplified insulin approach when I first came across it. However after developing diabetes and progressing to type-1, I have a much more detailed understanding of insulin function hence my perspective has changed to one similar to OP's.

    Regardless, I am not here to beat a dead horse. If people are content with the Atkins model then it that is their prerogative.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Because you said you manage it to keep it relatively low. So what is low and how do you know it is actually that if you do not measure it? Would you just put 'some' gasoline in your car if you had an important drive to make? Would'nt you want some idea of how much you needed? The only way I know of to measure insulin is via a C-peptide test at a lab. Do you get these done on a regular basis?

    Look I am being somewhat rhetorical here. Obviously you are not doing any of this. Am I simply trying to get you to look at the issue from a perspective that is different from the oversimplified one typically found in BB circles. People that claim that they keep their insulin low or that they are insulin resistant/sensitive without any quantitative (ie lab work) are at best, making educated guesses. At worst they are talking out of their... well you know.

    Caloric data and body dimension data (weight and measurements) on the other hand are easily obtained and hence are applicable concepts for bodyweight management.

    I will admit that I bought into this oversimplified insulin approach when I first came across it. However after developing diabetes and progressing to type-1, I have a much more detailed understanding of insulin function hence my perspective has changed to one similar to OP's.

    Regardless, I am not here to beat a dead horse. If people are content with the Atkins model then it that is their prerogative.

    Interesting

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Because you said you manage it to keep it relatively low. So what is low and how do you know it is actually that if you do not measure it? Would you just put 'some' gasoline in your car if you had an important drive to make? Would'nt you want some idea of how much you needed? The only way I know of to measure insulin is via a C-peptide test at a lab. Do you get these done on a regular basis?

    Look I am being somewhat rhetorical here. Obviously you are not doing any of this. Am I simply trying to get you to look at the issue from a perspective that is different from the oversimplified one typically found in BB circles. People that claim that they keep their insulin low or that they are insulin resistant/sensitive without any quantitative (ie lab work) are at best, making educated guesses. At worst they are talking out of their... well you know.

    Caloric data and body dimension data (weight and measurements) on the other hand are easily obtained and hence are applicable concepts for bodyweight management.

    I will admit that I bought into this oversimplified insulin approach when I first came across it. However after developing diabetes and progressing to type-1, I have a much more detailed understanding of insulin function hence my perspective has changed to one similar to OP's.

    Regardless, I am not here to beat a dead horse. If people are content with the Atkins model then it that is their prerogative.
    Sorry for the delay in responding, been very busy at work. I haven't measured the levels of insulin in my blood, but I'm not basing it on that. You might already be aware that different maco nutrients differ in their ability to release insulin. So if my memory serves me correctly the order is as follows....

    Carbohydrates + Protein - Highest insulin response
    Carbohyrates
    Protein
    Fats - No insulin response.

    I've managed to control it by mostly having fat and protein meals, which will ellicit some response due to the protein but the addition of fat and fibre will reduce the response. Also preventing my muscles from filling up with glycogen has increased the insulin sensitivity of my muscles, so less insulin is required to shuttle the protein in the muscles.

    You can only eat fat really is you don't want to generate a response which isn't feasible, but lowering carbohydrates intake at least allows you to control the response to some extent.

    I'm no advocate of the Atkins diet either. I've tried it and suffered badly. But I have benefitted massivley from taking in more of calories through fats rather than carbohydrates.

    Hope this makes some sense!!
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  6. Sorry mate. I only just read your comment about type 1 diabetes. I'm really interested in what you learnt about insulin function.

    I'm basing most of my comments on personal experience and reading the scivation diet books. Their approach is very low carb and its inspiration came to one of the authors when he was working with diabetics.

    But very interested on your thoughts about insulin.

    Thanks.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Sorry for the delay in responding, been very busy at work. I haven't measured the levels of insulin in my blood, but I'm not basing it on that. You might already be aware that different maco nutrients differ in their ability to release insulin. So if my memory serves me correctly the order is as follows....

    Carbohydrates + Protein - Highest insulin response
    Carbohyrates
    Protein
    Fats - No insulin response.
    I know where you got this information from and, unfortunately it is wrong - for two reasons.

    Firstly, fats DO trigger an insulin response. Not as much as carbs do calorie for calorie but they do. All macros trigger some insulin response. The medical community still does not fully understand why fats do; they believe that they 'interfere' with insulin function causing the body to produce more.

    This belief that fats do not require insulin probably stems from the fact that for diabetes management, type 1 diabetics do not usually factor in fat content when determining how much insulin to take. However, using this reasoning to then suggest that reducing carb intake in favor of fats will improve insulin sensitivity is bad reasoning.

    The second issues is one that I actually find quite aggravating: carbs + protein illicits a large insulin response than carbs alone. Duh! If you take 400 calories of carbs and measure the insulin response and then take the same 400 cals of carbs and then add 200 cals of protein then yes! you will get a larger response. On the other hand if you keep overall cals the same (take away 200 cal of carbs and add in the 200 cals of protein for a total of 400) then no, insulin response will be LESS! The moron that originally published that claim should be ringing in slurpees at 7-Eleven.

    Calorie for calorie the order of macros that trigger insulin the most is:
    1) Carbs
    2) Protein
    3) Fats

    HOWEVER! Fats can trigger more insulin than carbs if the quantities are sufficiently different (ie 500 calories of fats could trigger more insulin than 50 calories of carbs).

    This is the crucial shortcoming of the low carb model (not just Atkins) that the OP was trying to explain. If by reducing carb intake, people reduce total calories then they will benefit. If they don't then they won't. Most people cannot be bothered to monitor food QUANTITY so the model overlooks it to keeps things simple but in its simplicity it becomes false in most real world applications. The latter is what matters if you are actually trying to get results.

    This stuff leads to bad theories being built on bad theories. Net energy balance (ie calories in minus calories out) and bodyweight are what actually determines your insulin sensitivity. I can eat a high percentage of carbs and still maintain my sensitivity as long as my total energy intake is kept reasonable. I can validate this because I measure my food and since I have to take insulin, I can measure that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Also preventing my muscles from filling up with glycogen has increased the insulin sensitivity of my muscles, so less insulin is required to shuttle the protein in the muscles.
    Has it really? Again, you are assuming based on the, arguably bad, info from low carb proponents that this is what happens. The reality is that you have no way to actually know what your sensitivity is until you get to a lab and get numerical confirmation.

    Just want to reiterate that I am not picking on your or calling you out. I know that this is accepted dogma in the BB world but alas, it is really not correct. Gurus need to write articles and companies need to sell supps; both will stretch the truth to the limit to do so.

    Cheers.

  8. Dr. Atkins helped change my life when it comes to the way of thinking about food......

    Everybody can say what they want.....but if it wasnt for him and his book, I wouldnt be where I am today....

    I love Dr. Atkins!

    2/2008

    221 lbs !!!!






    More recently, about 165lbs

    Last edited by ax1; 01-12-2011 at 02:53 AM.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  9. Thanks for coming out Kim...

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Lastly, it is important to differentiate between a low carb diet and a keto or NO carb diet. The latter comes with some pretty annoying side effects that IMO, don't justify it.
    I keep my carb intake at under 40-50 grams a day year round, no loading, cycling etc....been doing this for close to 3 years now.

    I dont count fiber in my carb count.

    On another note, I never counted calories....Its annoying. I just make sure I consume 1.5-2.0 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. I dont eat an unlimited amount of food, I just know by the way I feel how much I need, and I have tactics to control the amount of food I eat in a single day.

    Right now Im experimenting too, seeing what happens when I lower my protein intake just a little and consume more quality fats.

    On another note again....Ive been low carb dieting for 10 years now....started it before that "craze"

    I actually gained a crap load of weight while low carb dieting....not sure what happened but I started pigging out on alot of crap and overeating (and also not training as hard,) consuming 1 pound steaks with 2-3 links of sausage in a single sitting for example.

    Im genetically obese, I can gain 30-40 pound in months if I run a normal lifestyle. Where Im at now with my diet and cant feel better and be happier. Well Ill be happier if I can look like Bruce Lee, lol
    This message was paid for by the Russians
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