Matthew D or Bobo

[Jag]

i'm semi cutting at the moment & train first thing in the morning on an empty stomach..........except for 2 strong coffee's & a Stacker2

next week i'm going to eat (or drink) some protein & carbs first then train 60-90 minutes later. i'm thinking whey, egg whites, oats & honey which is my usual POST workout shake.

i'll also throw in here that i drink my first serve of SwoleV2 during the workout followed up by another litre of water.

i do 20-30 minutes of cardio after 1 hour of weight training 4 times a week so how would i set up my post workout nutrition (carbs, protein & fats) to take advantage of maximum fat burning. and how long after the workout?

maintaining or bulking is no problem but this cutting thing gets a little confusing, especially the pre & post w/o side of things.

thanks. Jag

 

[jminis]

I would help ya but I'm not mattd or bobo.

 

[Jag]

I would help ya but I'm not mattd or bobo.

sorry, i left out jminus

anyones input would be appreciated though but i posted this just after reading a pre & post thread with inputs from Bobo & Matthew D.

Jag

 

[Matthew D]

15-20 minutes should be good...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

i do 20-30 minutes of cardio after 1 hour of weight training 4 times a week so how would i set up my post workout nutrition (carbs, protein & fats) to take advantage of maximum fat burning. and how long after the workout?

Anytime under 30 minutes is good. No fat (or extremely low) pre and post workout.

 

[Sticks]

Just a thought, but sholdn't carbs be avoided after doing cardio to maximize the use of fat stores within the body.

 

[houseman]

For cardio only workouts I've heard ot maximize the fatloss:

not to eat anything for up to an hour post cardio
eat protin only for up to an hour post cardio
consume a low calorie meal with protein/carbs (low GI) for up to an hour post cardio.

I believe "not eating anything" applies only to short HIIT cardio training.

Frankly, I think it's all alot of hoaky! Just find something that works for you and stick with it along with a good clean diet and perhaps some fat burning enhancers and you should see good results.

A

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Just a thought, but sholdn't carbs be avoided after doing cardio to maximize the use of fat stores within the body.

No. Those same fat stores will still get used in the same fashion. Remember you body doesn't use just one source all the time, it uses all sources all the time. It won't effect fat mobilization in the long run.

 

[Matthew D]

I have to agree for the most part with you houseman. For cutting, the calories in need to be less than the calories out.. but to help spare muscle, you do need to have protein and carbs after your workout.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

For cardio only workouts I've heard ot maximize the fatloss:

not to eat anything for up to an hour post cardio
eat protin only for up to an hour post cardio
consume a low calorie meal with protein/carbs (low GI) for up to an hour post cardio.

I believe "not eating anything" applies only to short HIIT cardio training.

Frankly, I think it's all alot of hoaky! Just find something that works for you and stick with it along with a good clean diet and perhaps some fat burning enhancers and you should see good results.

A

You will increase the rate of gluconeogensis that way. Thats not good. Just keep circulation FFA's low by not consuming fat and you will mobilize and oxidize the saem amount of fat. People often mistake the body using one source of fuel when its actually using everything all the time. You just want to increase the ratio of fat being oxidized to proteins.

 

[BingeAndPurge]

I just read an article saying not to take in any carbs or fat for at least an hour before cardio and to take 20g's of protein before. Then to have a regular whey shake, no carbs or fat, after cardio and then to eat a carb and protein meal 90 minutes after that. This was just for cardio, though. I don't know what the planning would be like with doing cadio after weight training. If it were me I'd stick to my normal pre and post workout nutrition routine but maybe cut out the during wo shake if you do that.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Depends on what type of cardio. If your doing HIIT you better consume some carbs as its heavily dependent on glucose for fuel compared to low inensity cardio which is more depedent on FFA's beings oxidized as fuel. HIIT traning has a hormonal reaction similar to weight training so the same protocol should apply. If your doing low intensity in the morning, I prefer a scoop of Whey w/ water before.

In Jag's case he is doing cardio after weight training so he should defiently have carbs and protein pre and post workout. People seem to think the majority of fat is burned during exercise which isn't the case. Triglycerides are broken into FFA's during exercise mainly and an energy deficit (achieved with diet) will allow for oxidization of thoe FFA's over time. If not they will just be deposited back into adipose tissue. This is also why you don't want to consume fat post workout because you already have an adequate amount of FFA''s circulating. Adding more increasaes the chances of them being redeposited because high insulin spikes increases LPL levels.

 

[Sticks]

So we should avoid fat after all types of training. Or just cardio, because I was under the imprssion that a shake/meal high in EFA's after weight training was a good thing.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Avoid all fat unless they are MCT's as they are digested and utlized differently (they are basically used as carbs). So yes try to avoid most types of fat especially saturated fat as they can circulate up to 9 hours after ingestion.

 

[lifted]

Avoid all fat unless they are MCT's as they are digested and utlized differently (they are basically used as carbs). So yes try to avoid most types of fat especially saturated fat as they can circulate up to 9 hours after ingestion.

Bobo, my ignorance is bliss, what are MCT's?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Medium Chain Triglycerides.

You can also use DAG oil (diacylglycerol).

I still wouldn't use either pre or post workout but you can get away with those more than anything else.

 

[Jag]

Avoid all fat unless they are MCT's as they are digested and utlized differently (they are basically used as carbs). So yes try to avoid most types of fat especially saturated fat as they can circulate up to 9 hours after ingestion.

Bobo, does this include egg yolks? i usually have 1 or 2 to every 6 whites.

Jag

 

[Sticks]

Damn, and all this time i've been adding natural peanut butter to my pwo shake.

 

[Sticks]

Little confused Bobo

I thought you were looking for an insulin spike post workout to help with the uptake of protein/glycogen into your muscles. I realize you want to achieve this spike by consuming carbs like maltodextrin but isn't an insulin spike still an insulin spike. Also i'm talking after a weight workout, not cardio. Thanks man

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo, does this include egg yolks? i usually have 1 or 2 to every 6 whites.

Jag

Yes.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I thought you were looking for an insulin spike post workout to help with the uptake of protein/glycogen into your muscles. I realize you want to achieve this spike by consuming carbs like maltodextrin but isn't an insulin spike still an insulin spike. Also i'm talking after a weight workout, not cardio. Thanks man

You get an insulin spike regardless. What happens when you have a large insulin spike and an ample amount of fat present? Here's a hint. What happens when you consume fried foods, pizza and french fries? I think you get the idea. A high insulin spike w/ fat is not good, peroid.

Insulin shuttles nutrients to skeletal muscle AND adipose tissue. Its not selective.

 

[lifted]

Thanks Bobo, would you say the next meal after my post-wo meal which is 2-3 hours later is ample enough time to be in a "safe zone" to start having fats again?

What would you say would be the minimal amount of time that you can consume more fats after post-wo meal?

Mine goes like this:

Pre-wo meal: 1-1.5 hours before training Protein, low GI carbs, fats.

Post-wo meal: usually 20 minutes after completion, I have a low GI carb source such as oats, Coco wheats, etc. Then, as soon as I feel like I'm able to hold down more food, I drink my protein shake.

Next meal would be another P/C/F meal around 2-3 hours later after my Post-wo meal...

What if anything would you change in my regimen?

 

[Sticks]

You get an insulin spike regardless. What happens when you have a large insulin spike and an ample amount of fat present? Here's a hint. What happens when you consume fried foods, pizza and french fries? I think you get the idea. A high insulin spike w/ fat is not good, peroid.

Insulin shuttles nutrients to skeletal muscle AND adipose tissue. Its not selective.

Yeah I got the idea. Thanks for the help Bobo. Wasn't using my head there. This will definately help me in the future.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Thanks Bobo, would you say the next meal after my post-wo meal which is 2-3 hours later is ample enough time to be in a "safe zone" to start having fats again?

.

Next meal would be another P/C/F meal around 2-3 hours later after my Post-wo meal...

What if anything would you change in my regimen?

That time peroid is fine. I wouldn't change anything as I see it, although everyone is differnt and responds to different variables but overall you look good.

 

[lifted]

Great, thats the answer I was hoping for...

thanks..

 

[Jag]

great thread

this has been a very informative thread.

had some buckwheat pancakes with honey & cottage cheese for breakfast this morning.

had a fantastic back, chest & ab workout 2 hours later with 20 minutes of cardio and i felt like i could've done the workout again.
loads of energy left!!

around 30 minutes later i got home had a shower then my shake (egg whites, whey, oats & honey) & 3 hours later salmon & broccolli.

feel fantastic now & everythings sitting good in my stomach.

Jag

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Sounds great! Just keep it up and be patient and you'll hit your goals soon!

 

[FTMGuy]

Bobo or who ever, how does Yohimbine play into this since it helps in the release FFA's? I heard that Yohimbine would be best to use pre-workout. After reading this thread i am wondering why it would.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Yohimbine, Ephedrine, Norephedrine, Synephrine, etc....all helps in releasing and oxidizing fats. Yohimbine has an added benefit of targeting Alpha 2 receptors which is predominatly the "stubborn" fat but also increase water retention so you have to remember that when judging its effectiveness.

 

[Jag]

everything i've read on yohimbe says it works best on a low carb diet.

i wouldn't be able to explain why though. i might leave that to Bobo.

actually Bobo, what is your background behind all your knowledge?

Jag

 

[FTMGuy]

Over on Lyle board he says to take .2mg/kg of TBW and 200mg of cafeine 30-60 mins before cardio. I will start a new thread on this.

 

[chi_town]

A great source of MCT's

Coconut Oil !

It has recently become an everyday part of my supplentation.

Flax and Coconut Oils.......

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Yes but tell me why coconut oil is good? If you do, you win a cookie (no carb of course).

 

[goldylight]

how does coconut oil taste? Does it stay fresh at room temperature?

 

[goldylight]

coconut oil stimulates the thyroid???

 

[Dwight Schrute]

everything i've read on yohimbe says it works best on a low carb diet.

i wouldn't be able to explain why though. i might leave that to Bobo.

actually Bobo, what is your background behind all your knowledge?

Jag

Oral Yohimbine does not react very well to any increase in blood insulin levels. Its best to take on an exmpty stomach and another reason transdermal is favorored.

The backround to my knowledge? The absolute love of this sport and lifestyle. I did take collge courses as electives but my formal degrees have nothing to do with this at all.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

coconut oil stimulates the thyroid???

 

[goldylight]

great article - http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/28/coconut_health.htm

 

[Jeff]

how does coconut oil taste? Does it stay fresh at room temperature?

depends on the oil, the extra virgin stuff smells like coconut and has a slight coconut taste. It pretty much looks like crisco when its in the tub, I think it melts at 75 degrees. I just started using it, it tastes better than flax, but not as good as the cinnamon flavour flax, the hard part is getting use to the texture.

 

[FTMGuy]

Coconut is is good because it half MCT (I love MCT's and DAG). Just don't add it to cold water the oil turns hard quick.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Coconut is is good because it half MCT

Ding Ding Ding!


We have a winner.

 

[Ivan Drago]

How do you guys use your coconut oil? I absolutely hate the taste of coconut, but if I could find a way to use it and not get the taste, I'd be pretty happy.

 

[jjjd]

does this mean coconut MILK is a good thing or not?

i know it's high fat, but does it have the same %age of MCT oil's as coconut oils?

i make some pretty good thai currys myself. it would be good to know if coconut milk has high MCT's.

 

[MaDmaN]

How do you guys use your coconut oil? I absolutely hate the taste of coconut, but if I could find a way to use it and not get the taste, I'd be pretty happy.

I mix it with my morning protien shake..
I melt 4 tablespoons of coconut oil (virgin) then I add green tea to it...

60 grams of whey protien mixed with Hood low carb milk 4 eggbeaters and uncooked oatmeal and wheat germ.Combine all this to make one super nutritous 80 gram protien shake....

 

[Jcc]

Now, to expand further on YHCL and insulin... let's say you ingest some YHCL and then consume a meal with carbs in it, enough to create a moderate insulin spike. Will the Y resume its effects after the insulin spike has 'settled down'? Or is it a done deal after that?

Damn, I think I worded this question terribly. But it's early, and hopefully someone will get what I'm trying to ask.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I mix it with my morning protien shake..
I melt 4 tablespoons of coconut oil (virgin) then I add green tea to it...

60 grams of whey protien mixed with Hood low carb milk 4 eggbeaters and uncooked oatmeal and wheat germ.Combine all this to make one super nutritous 80 gram protien shake....

I see where you got your name, Madman! If I drank that, I think I'd puke! How does it taste/go down?

Do you have the macro breakdown off hand?

 

[adrenalinaddict]

This topic about what to eat pre/post cardio has been such a topic of debate for me lately. There is so much out there it is so tough to know what to believe. I have heard in the past and was always under the impression that spiking your insulin before a cardio workout was bad. I read somewhere...I believe on BB.com (But who knows who wrote it) that spiking your insulin releases cortisol into your body which blocks fat from being used as your energy source. Which would mean if you had a gatorade right before cardio, that you would only be burning the sugars you just put into your body, instead of burning fat.

However, I recently purchased "nutrition Timing" specifically because of all this confusion Ive had. I have talked to multiple trainers, and they all have different answers. The book says that spiking your insulin curbs the rise of cortisol. And cortisol is a catabolic hormone. So spiking your insulin would reduce muscle breakdown during cardio. It also says that spiking your insulin greatly improves protein synthesis when taking in sugars and protein simultaneously, which is a good thing.

So someone answer this question from hell for me. damnit, lol. I generally do cardio seperate from lifting, generally in the morning, or early afternoon time. So...do I want to take in simple carbs to spike my insulin and curb cortisol like "Nutrition Timing" says? Or do I want to take in only protein, (thinking that it will help reduce muscle catabolism and burn mostly fat? Since Ive heard in the past that spiking insulin blocks fat from being used for your energy.) or do I take in some complex carbs so that my insulin isnt spiked, but I have some energy. What the hell is the damn answer, lol? Someone let me know and throw some proof behind it if you got it. And to help out. My main goal for the cardio is to reduce stored fat. I am trying to get my damn BF% down. PLEASE HELP!!!

 

[raylewis]

People often mistake the body using one source of fuel when its actually using everything all the time. You just want to increase the ratio of fat being oxidized to proteins.

Bobo, this is interesting stuff. Can you point to any studies on this?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Nutrition 200 Section 14 about 4 years ago

Its just basic nutrition. The body uses all sources, all the time.

 

[raylewis]

Oral Yohimbine does not react very well to any increase in blood insulin levels. Its best to take on an exmpty stomach and another reason transdermal is favorored.

I tried Lipo -Y on my midsection but results weren't great for me.