how much dextrose pwo

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    Quote Originally Posted by goes4ever
    I agree wholeheartedly, I never made any real gains till I worked with Swolecat, he totally changed the way I ate, and the main difference was my two HIGH carb PWO meals and yes they are high GI, real world results is what I am after not some bull**** study. Studies don't make me grow, but Swolecats knowledge did.




    Right.

    Bull**** study? Don't bitch about what you don't understand. Just because you lack the time and effort to understand whats going doesn't mean its bull****.

    Sorry, we don't perpetuate the meathead mentality here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goes4ever
    I agree wholeheartedly, I never made any real gains till I worked with Swolecat, he totally changed the way I ate, and the main difference was my two HIGH carb PWO meals and yes they are high GI, real world results is what I am after not some bull**** study. Studies don't make me grow, but Swolecats knowledge did.
    Never made any real gains? Yeah I'm sure it was only the High GI that made the difference.

    Totally changed the way you eat yet the main difference was High GI?


    Can you get anymore biased with his site in your sig?

    Either debate me on the issue with facts, or don't post. I don't want to hear "it worked for me and Swolecat did it all". Sorry, that doesn't float here.

    It just sounds like you didn't have a clue how to eat.
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    I'm not here to argue, I am just stating what worked for me, I doesn't matter what works for others, only what works for me. As far as my sig, why is it biased? gotswole.com is my home, I am a long time vet there, and I don't see why that is being biased?
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    Thats fine that it works for you. I never said it wouldn't and even agreed with SC that if you can get away with using High GI, then by all means use it. BUt its also unhealthy in the long run. But when someone comes on here saying studies are bull****, they don't help you grow, and SwoleCats knowledge is what counts, then I have a problem with it. Everything you eat, use for supplements or inject is based on science. They are backed up by STUDIES, not some hidden secrets only a few select people know. The other user said Oatmeal made him fat and its just almost impossible unless he's eating the amount a horse would. Its like me telling you I don't need protein to grow. Its just physically impossible. There are physiological rules that apply to everyone and not just a select few. The only way you can break them is by using enhancing agents that allow you to break genetic limits. Other than that, its impossible.

    If take the same amount of dextrose and replace it with the same amount of oatmeal, you can't get fat. Its impossible. Every effect oatmeal has on the body would make the chances less. The fiber alone would do this.

    As for being biased you clearly are choosing to keep a closed mind and dismissing what "science" has to say simply by stating Swolecats knowledge is the key. Well just take a look at what SwoleCat recommends. Its based on science. Learn to live with it and understand it before you dismiss it.
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    in regards to getting maltodextrin cheap, try a brewing supply store.

    they sell maltodextrin for brewing stuff. they also call it "corn sugar".

    cheap.

    another good place for cheap nutritional supplies are tack stores (stores that cater to horse owners).

    although i have never seen maltodextrin at my local tack store.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    in regards to getting maltodextrin cheap, try a brewing supply store.

    they sell maltodextrin for brewing stuff. they also call it "corn sugar".

    cheap.

    another good place for cheap nutritional supplies are tack stores (stores that cater to horse owners).

    although i have never seen maltodextrin at my local tack store.
    Actually, corn sugar is dextrose. You should be able to find both maltodextrin & dextrose at any brewing supply place though.

    homebrewheaven.com has two 5lb bags (10lbs total) of dextrose for $7.50. Thats less than half the cost of blackstar labs. There's also a 50lb bag for $29.
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    Goes4, don't get into an argument here bro, not worth it. U know what I look like, we've seen you gain 25 lbs. of LEAN mass in 1 year while dropping bodyfat as well, but I guess we're not qualified to comment. I don't see pics of anyone else preachin' what they set in motion to "show what you know", but then again when you have science, you don't need pics.

    Really, **** the studies gentleman.......let's see some pictures that showcase your physique built from the methods you personally recommend/employ. Not directed at Bobo per-se, but to anyone who attempts to de-bunk what obviously works!

    As per a very intelligent trainer on this subject:

    "Science versus Practice. Science will tell you things shouldn't work but they do in Practice. Just because a study says blah...blah...doesn't mean **** unless the context is the EXACT same.

    Let me bust your ear here. Arguments from analogy, which is what studies are, fail when the context differs in the slightest. Scientific studies on rats, diabetics, etc...all change the context and substantially weaken the analogy. Thus, you should rely upon practice and what works first and then studies for justification.

    Argue the science all you want. Results speak for themselves."

    I'm done here anyhow, nothing going on here but negativity and I hate that ****, it's catabolic. To each his own, forever and ever, peace and goodnight!

    ~SC~
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    My pics are posted and I'm currently 242 at around 8% so you can take you allegations of people not practicing what they preach and take it elswhere. BTW, I've been doing half as long as you have too so take that for what its worth. You can spout all you want about "**** studies" but its trully ironic when someone like yourself who is supposed to be fairly knowledable in the area of nutrition doesn't even understand basic rules of physiology. Are you formally educated in this area?

    You seem to be forgetting that the studies posted were done on resistance trained athletes so your analogy of using rat studies is moot. ALso you better throw away 99% of the anabolics you use because they are supported by RAT ASSAYS, or did you not know that? Its very simple, the ones that don't understand, criticize them and continue to remain ignorant of that facts.


    Next time don't PM me either asking what you should use post workout in the Low GI department. Seems funny you bash it yet privately asked me what to use. If you want to bash the members here for taking a scietific stance rather than your word just because you've "trained" people then you take it right out the door.



    BTW- I have a competitor that I'm training and he is competiing on April 14th so I will gladly post pics up of him when he wins. So sorry SC, I actually do practive what I preach but realize there is no substiute for time therefore don't ask people to post pics to prove their worth. The meathead mentality doesn't fly around here.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat

    As per a very intelligent trainer on this subject:

    "Science versus Practice. Science will tell you things shouldn't work but they do in Practice. Just because a study says blah...blah...doesn't mean **** unless the context is the EXACT same.



    ~SC~
    Wrong again.

    Theory will assume things work or don't work, science explains it either way. When things work there is a scientific explanation whether you understnad it or not. There is a difference between "theory" and "science". At least understand what your talking about before you post.


    Context the same? You don't make sense again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    I'm done here anyhow, nothing going on here but negativity and I hate that ****, it's catabolic.
    ~SC~
    I didn't know negativity equated to members asking you to explain yourself and not blindly accepting what you say. If thats what you want, don't let the door hit you on the way out....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Goes4, don't get into an argument here bro, not worth it. U know what I look like,
    ~SC~
    You need to reduce the amount of VAT.
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    You missed the point which was to have everyone do what works for him/her.

    You saying that just because something works in studies, it's going to work for everyone, is a slippery slope statement. Again, it wasn't a bash against you, but you seem pretty defensive for one reason or another. Yes, pictures do give credibility, and I was unaware you had some, but again my comments were not at you, as I stated above, u must have skipped that part. I checked the pics section (where pics would be) but was unable to find them.
    Perhaps you have a link, as I'd like to see......not to be negative in any manner, just to see, nothing more/less.

    Just tired of seeing "study this, study that" when each person should just find out what works for him/her. Period.........

    I won't come back, and I'll let the door hit my ass on the way out, hahha, I only came back here because 2 other people asked me to come back and read the replies. I already know you and I have our differences of opinion, and I accept that. I asked you what you used as your pwo meal, yes, because you never said, hence the p.m. Never did I bash that idea, nor did I disseminate the info you told me in the p.m. I just wanted to know that's all, and said I may try it one day to actually see how it works.......thought that was clear?

    Negativity, yes, because you blasted goes4 for his signature and leaned into him for speaking his own mind. Then you throw around "education this, education that" and insult myself questioning my intelligence. Question it all you want, I didn't get to where I am from not knowing anything I can tell you that much. As well, I do plan on receiving my Masters in Nutrition, not that it's anyone's biz, but I'm starting that journey in about 2 months. As well, your "VAT" comment is totally a non-sequitor, and if you've seen any of my photoshoot pics, you'd eat your words. The pic below is not the only pic of me, but if you draw your conclusions on a person by one pic, just as you do by your "studies", you are either into flaming a person to be a jerk, or you're putting the cart before the horse.

    Wrong again you say? Okay, well first off that was not my comment if you read my post correctly, and secondly science is NOT always right, and does not carry over into EVERYONE in real world application. If you think it does, well, keep believing that, it's no sweat off my balls.

    Chill out man, it's gonna be okay, lol............you're too uptight......have a drink!


    ~SC~
    Last edited by SwoleCat; 03-30-2004 at 12:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Wrong again.

    Theory will assume things work or don't work, science explains it either way. When things work there is a scientific explanation whether you understnad it or not. There is a difference between "theory" and "science". At least understand what your talking about before you post.


    Context the same? You don't make sense again.
    What you just explained I already know, yet it has nothing to do w/what I posted...........

    Yeah, meaning you cannot re-create an everday environment w/outside interferences/changes in some lab. If EVERYONE had the SAME conditions as in the study itself, then yes, but we know that is FAR from reality.

    If science is so damn reliable, why do some methods work for some, not for others? Some acne cures work for some, but do absolute **** for someone else? Vioxx works to reduce swelling in most people, but for about 25% of them it makes it WORSE. Some respond to Effexor or Paxil very well, while for others it makes the depression condition worse or not change at all. These examples go on forever.

    ......real world application thus debunking science for whatever reason, that's my point. There is no "one way".

    I never intended for anyone to get their panties in a bunch! Jeez people, let some air out. No worries "bro", I'm taking this site off of my favorites list so I won't be here to "challenge" (I'm not but u think I am), you any longer. This thread is the only one w/any new activity anyway, not much going on in the forum anyhow.

    Again, my apologies if you think I was attempting to tear YOU down, not my intention. So, I believe it's best I just vacate the said location.

    Regards!

    ~SC~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You need to reduce the amount of VAT.
    Just so you know that I was paying attention.....
    VAT-Visceral Adipose Tissue

    Do you suspect this is caused from androgen use or to much dextrose in his PWS?
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    Yeah, you guys are great w/the flames!

    You'll want to check out my entire photo album before you make such assinine comments. Better yet, check out the MuscleMag from a few months back with my pic in it, or even better than that, check the next issue and look at that pic. I'm sure it'll be highly evident your VAT comment doesn't apply.



    ~SC~
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    You missed the point which was to have everyone do what works for him/her.

    You saying that just because something works in studies, it's going to work for everyone, is a slippery slope statement. Again, it wasn't a bash against you, but you seem pretty defensive for one reason or another. Yes, pictures do give credibility, and I was unaware you had some, but again my comments were not at you, as I stated above, u must have skipped that part. I checked the pics section (where pics would be) but was unable to find them.
    Perhaps you have a link, as I'd like to see......not to be negative in any manner, just to see, nothing more/less.

    Just tired of seeing "study this, study that" when each person should just find out what works for him/her. Period.........

    I won't come back, and I'll let the door hit my ass on the way out, hahha, I only came back here because 2 other people asked me to come back and read the replies. I already know you and I have our differences of opinion, and I accept that. I asked you what you used as your pwo meal, yes, because you never said, hence the p.m. Never did I bash that idea, nor did I disseminate the info you told me in the p.m. I just wanted to know that's all, and said I may try it one day to actually see how it works.......thought that was clear?

    Negativity, yes, because you blasted goes4 for his signature and leaned into him for speaking his own mind. Then you throw around "education this, education that" and insult myself questioning my intelligence. Question it all you want, I didn't get to where I am from not knowing anything I can tell you that much. As well, I do plan on receiving my Masters in Nutrition, not that it's anyone's biz, but I'm starting that journey in about 2 months.

    Wrong again you say? Okay, well first off that was not my comment if you read my post correctly, and secondly science is NOT always right, and does not carry over into EVERYONE in real world application. If you think it does, well, keep believing that, it's no sweat off my balls.

    Chill out man, it's gonna be okay, lol............you're too uptight......have a drink!


    ~SC~
    First of all I never said what works in studies works the same for everyone. Did you not catch the comment I made about people who can get away with using High GI? I never said High GI doesn't work which you seem to be implying. I said Low GI will work the same with much less chance of adipose storage. Thats the point. No more, no less.

    This board is based on our members expanding their knowledge with credible evidence and we encourage theory. We would rather be innovators here than followers. We don't blindly accept everything and I fully expect people to question me with every post if they choose. All I ask if give me some sort of evidence to back it up and "testimonials" don't cut it because they are just opinion and I tihnk you know the saying that goes along with that.

    You asked me specifically what my post workout shake was then said you were going to try after you had your recent pics taken. I just find it ironic that you say "**** studies, use what works" then procede to try what I recommend.

    Negativity? I blasted him for stating that studies are "bull****" and your knowledge is what counts before he went back and edited his posts. You can see the original in my quote. We don't follow that philosophy here. There is a reason things work and its not some magic beans you that give out. If you think your knowledege is the key, prove it with some evidence. Its simple a theme.

    Masters in Nutrition? Bro you didn't understand what HSL or LPL was and didn't even know that 4-6g of glucose was the amount of circualting glucose that is present in everyone! If you want your Masters in Nutrition then you better get used to those studies you say "**** all" too. I question your intelligence when the only comeback you seem to have is "use what works for you". Do you not have any scientific explanations or evidence to back it up? Thats all I'm asking for here. Tell me why your way is better because I've done that. Testimonials means nothing to me. Answer that I will retract anything I implied about your intelligence. Actually its not intelligence I'm questionong, just your knowledge in this area. I don't think you lack intelligence at all. That WOULD be insulting.

    I'll chill out when you refrain from bashing the board and the way we do things around here. I like it here and its my homeboard so yes, I'm defensive about it.


    Pictures sometimes give credbility. I love how comparisons of two people take place when once person has been training for 10+ years and the other for 5. There is no substitue for time in the gym and I don't believe size equals knowledge. I know people with extremely superior genetics that can eat Mcdonalds all day and not gain one lb. of fat. Joey Galloway hits the drive through twice a day yet inclines 405lbs while only weighing 180. Genetics is tough to compete against. I have a LONG way to go to achieve what I want but I think in the time given I've done a pretty good job consdiering where I came from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Yeah, you guys are great w/the flames!

    You'll want to check out my entire photo album before you make such assinine comments. Better yet, check out the MuscleMag from a few months back with my pic in it, or even better than that, check the next issue and look at that pic. I'm sure it'll be highly evident your VAT comment doesn't apply.



    ~SC~
    Bro, just because you disagree with one person and may not like them doesn't mean you gotta flame the entire board. No dude, "the whole board" isn't one mind....so continue you're "board bashing" elsewhere...

    You don't agree w/ someone fine, you don't like someone fine....don't include the whole world when you decide to take on one army, or you'll find yourself in a hole...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    If science is so damn reliable, why do some methods work for some, not for others? Some acne cures work for some, but do absolute **** for someone else? Vioxx works to reduce swelling in most people, but for about 25% of them it makes it WORSE. Some respond to Effexor or Paxil very well, while for others it makes the depression condition worse or not change at all. These examples go on forever.

    ~
    Because if you look at most studies there is a usually a small % that doesn't react as the others. The studies support a margin of error Swolecat. I suggest you learn this before you go for your Masters. Some people are insulin resistant, some people are not. Does this mean carbs work differently in those people? No. It means the degree in which it works is different.

    BTW- just because it doesn't work doesn't mean science doesn't apply. It usually means there is a scientific reason that it DIDN'T work. You seem to think there are some magic formulas in which science doesn't apply. Sorry SC your not standing at the nexus of the universe in which the laws of nature are changed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokdog
    Just so you know that I was paying attention.....
    VAT-Visceral Adipose Tissue

    Do you suspect this is caused from androgen use or to much dextrose in his PWS?

    Androgen use more likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Yeah, you guys are great w/the flames!

    You'll want to check out my entire photo album before you make such assinine comments. Better yet, check out the MuscleMag from a few months back with my pic in it, or even better than that, check the next issue and look at that pic. I'm sure it'll be highly evident your VAT comment doesn't apply.



    ~SC~
    I'm looking at the one in your sig in which you seem a little "protruded" and the definition in your abs is lacking. Maybe you were pushing out or something. Its just a little construcutive criticism. I have many bodyparts that are lacking, its not a big deal. Nobody is questioning the fact you have a great build so you don't have to toot your own horn so much.
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    Most people on this board are here to learn, and if people have different opinions, that's cool, but we've all got to be open minded......hence why i tried the low gi carbs post workout. So give me some credit for trying it out - Also i didnt piss about and change anything else in my diet, i used the same amount of carbs from oats instead of dextrose - my results in one month was less muscle growth and more fat storage - so i switched back - i became leaner, fuller, and started adding lean mass quicker. Also my training and lifestyle was very stable through out.

    Physiology is physiology and my results with low gi compared to high gi were worse - remember everything was the same except oats for dex?

    Heres the latest article i read recently that gave me more insight into pwo nutrition

    http://abcbodybuilding.com/magazine04/scientific.htm
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    Very disappointing thread. Two opinions that I respect on this board fighting it out like this was a certain other board that we all know. I remember the thread where you both had an awesome debate over this and to jack all of that up with this nonsense is disappointing indeed.
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    Don't sit here and lecture me how to conduct myself here. There wasn't a debate at all. There was me giving you scientific explanations behind why my way would work, then the other side saying "it works for me so it must be right". Oh and I forgot the famous "I'm big so I know whats best" arguement. Two classic points of view when one side can't back up what they say with any sort of literature. Lets not forget the credible "**** studies, they are bull****" position. That brought an air of distinction here all itself. If people want to debate me then buck up and show me why. Jesus do I have to provide you with the literature that will help their argument? Its ridiculous.

    Testimonials mean nothing to me. Its just another guy telling me what worked for them without knowing how it worked. A lot of good that does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbrownbear

    Heres the latest article i read recently that gave me more insight into pwo nutrition

    http://abcbodybuilding.com/magazine04/scientific.htm

    He's wrong on several issues. He needs to update his references as they are outdated. How can that be the latest article when he doesn't even include the latest Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A, Ivy JL, Kuo CH, or Barrett EJ studies?! Half the ones he references are from the 1980's! The closest one he has was Ivy 2002 in which it was concluded that the addition of a carbohydrate to a protein increased protein synthesis. What a revelation. This article is highly outdated and is what Supp companies use to push their products.

    By Adam “Old School” Knowlden? His name fits well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbrownbear

    Physiology is physiology and my results with low gi compared to high gi were worse - remember everything was the same except oats for dex?
    Thats if I believed you, which I don't. All of a sudden trainee's of SC come to his defense. Coincidence? I think not. It was the same when DC didn't have a clue either.
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    If I didn't see these:

    "Really, **** the studies gentleman......."

    "real world results is what I am after not some bull**** study. Studies don't make me grow, but Swolecats knowledge did."

    "I'm done here anyhow, nothing going on here but negativity"

    "Yeah, you guys are great w/the flames!"

    ........then I wouldn't have a problem and would discuss the scientific aspect for as long as you want. But when your dealing with people that even refuse to look at the evidence at hand and just blindly accept what someone else says, then your going to have a problem here. Its a simple theme, back up what you say.

    So far, nobody on the other side has attempted. Hell, here's a hint, Tipton.
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    DAMN!

    You guys take a BUNCH of carbs!

    For 4 months I've been putting 20 grams dextrose (and 2 R-ALA) in my PWO whey shake with excellent results. If I took 85 grams I would roll around.

    In all honesty SOMETIMES I will take 20-30 pre & during wo as well but only if I'm tired or feel I need glycogen.
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    If you take 20-30 pre-workout, then there really is no reason to take it 20-30+ grams of high GI post workout w/ ALA. First catabolism and glyocgen depletion is barely a factor. This will cause 2 things to happen in the long run. With ALA you will increase storage of excess glucose since ALA also increase GLUT4 permeability in fat cells and circulating glucose will have an increased chance of being stored rather than used in glycogen resynthesis (as all circulating glucose does not get used by the exercised muscle). As I've said before High GI pre-workout is fine since you will basically use available glucose for fuel (but you should have a smaller amount mixed with some slower digestion carb source to prevent a crash) but for post workout its not necessary especially if you take it pre-workout. I'm glad you have had good results but they can ALWAYS be better.

    If your eating properly there is no need for you to feel you "need glyocgen". Depletion take many, many hours, sometimes days (think getting into ketosis) so people caliming you are depleting glyocgen stores with a simple 1 hour workout are highly mistaken. Just some food for thought....
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    bobo,then what do you suggest pre work out and post work out????
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    You could easily do 10-15g of dextrose w/ whey with some fruit for pre-workout. Post workout, anything from a shake with just milk (skim preferably) or some oatmeal or any low GI source. The choice is yours post workout.
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    Even better would be to drink half before and half during your workout. Of course the fruit stays before. It just depends on how detailed you want to get.
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    Bobo- What about someone that uses low gi pre and post workout? Do you see this causing a problem with glycogen stores and over saturating them? From your research would high gi be a better choice for pre workout?
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    Nope, no problem at all although you might want to consume it 45 minutes to an hour before, not 15-30 minutes. With High GI pre-workout, you simply might be able to get away with it as you do have an activity following. You just don't want to take too much because then you just crash in the middle of your workout. Thats why a small amount with some fruit would be ok.

    I tihnk overall if your dieting properly, the need for high GI carbs pre wokrout isn't necessary because you should have ample amounts of energy anyway. But if you do use it, this would be the best time to use withouth risking adverse effects.
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    Excellent thanks! That is what I have been doing for almost a year now.
    Last edited by NPursuit; 04-01-2004 at 01:10 PM.
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    shoot bobo, this goes aginst the grain,most people say do it the other way
    but it does make alot of sense what your are saying,im going to try it
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    many say to have a 2:1 ratio of dextrose to protein.....personally i find this a bit much. It all boils down to what your goals are..trial and error. i believe a simple sugar is necessary post workout with your shake. Then about an hour after shake you wanna get some good protein and a low gi carb into the body to further promote gains
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    Quote Originally Posted by massmongler
    i believe a simple sugar is necessary post workout with your shake.

    Why?
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    I thought drinking dextrose was good with your post workout shake to trigger an insulin response. So that in turn would help your muscle absorb more of the protein
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Why?
    dextrose will trigger a better insulin response thus allowing more protein to get to the muscles at a faster rate then withut a simple sugar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massmongler
    dextrose will trigger a better insulin response thus allowing more protein to get to the muscles at a faster rate then withut a simple sugar
    LOL, bro thats what this whole thread is about; that is proving its unecessary....to each his own, but try to keep an open mind.
  

  
 

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