Dwight Schrute
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Thank god we don't listen to T-Mag.
Dwight Schrute
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That makes no sense at all. 66g of carbs will cause a significant insulin release. Insulin goes up, glucagon goes down. Protein are broken down into glucose (gluconeogenosis) in time of stress and low blood glucose concentrations. When you taking in 66g of carbs of 33g of protein, nether of those conditions is occuring. Once again, thank god we don't listen to T-Mag.
AdrenalineRush1
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Bobo what im not getting is why insulin is so bad, okay energy use switches to carbohydrate, your not using fat...okay now if you used more calories than you need *maintenance* then eventually at another time during the day your body is going to take those calories from somewhere, and if at rest should be fat...simple carbs before/after workout forces your body to use carbs as a source of energy when they are needed the most to spare muscle... so how are simple carbs going to make u fat if you are taking in below maintenance, or is your example only if you are trying to bulk ?
im not doubting you, and in fact i hope your right, id rather eat something whole then down a bunch of sugar, but so far it has been my experience that simple carbs have NOT hurt my ability to get lean
after reading the thread more , it appears we are only talking bulking, but do you only take in low gi carbs for cutting as well?
im not doubting you, and in fact i hope your right, id rather eat something whole then down a bunch of sugar, but so far it has been my experience that simple carbs have NOT hurt my ability to get lean
after reading the thread more , it appears we are only talking bulking, but do you only take in low gi carbs for cutting as well?
Dwight Schrute
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1. Energy use doens't switch. Your body uses all sources all the time, the rations just change.
2. Insulin effects HSL and cAMP. When those are lowered, fat oxidation is reduced. What triggers a decrease in HSL and cAMP? Insulin. So if your using it for cutting, it can hamper fat burning. These effects also can last longer then the actual spike.
3. If your bulking, your not that catabolic so the whole issue about catabolism makes no sense. For you to become catabolic you need to lower glycogen levels much lower than any workout will do. With the abundance of calories your taking in it doens't take much for your body to store excess FFA's, sO why make it even easier with a large insulin spike.
4. Insulin is released whether its low GI or high GI so your assumption about energy use during workout works for both. What will give you a more sustained release of energy? Low GI.
jminis
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We don't? LOL
AdrenalineRush1
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ok bobo, i completely understand your reasoning, it is very similar to that of Beverly international, and they produce superior bodybuilders, theres always more than one way to skin a cat, i am going to experiment to see if your way works better than the hi gi post workout ive used in the past..Thanks for the response!!
R-Mac
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Bobo,
I train in the am and had been following Paul Cribb's bracketing method for a while which consited of consuming a serving of ast's creatine hsc(or when I was out gatorade mix) and their VP2 protein pre-and post workout.
Recently I have switched to a different approach.
I now consume a "whole food" MRP by Labrada that has complex carbs vs. malto pre workout(about 1/2-45 min before work out)and consume a serving of VP2 and glutamine immediately post workout followed by oats/raisins and egg whites 20-30min later.
I have been following it for about 2 weeks and so far so good. I wanted to try it for myself after reading this thread. I will give more feedback on my results.
What are your thoughts on the braketing method?. I dont know if you have read the article ever before, but I would like your feedback and thoughts on what Cribb writes regarding glucose.. thanks r-mac
(http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=132)
I train in the am and had been following Paul Cribb's bracketing method for a while which consited of consuming a serving of ast's creatine hsc(or when I was out gatorade mix) and their VP2 protein pre-and post workout.
Recently I have switched to a different approach.
I now consume a "whole food" MRP by Labrada that has complex carbs vs. malto pre workout(about 1/2-45 min before work out)and consume a serving of VP2 and glutamine immediately post workout followed by oats/raisins and egg whites 20-30min later.
I have been following it for about 2 weeks and so far so good. I wanted to try it for myself after reading this thread. I will give more feedback on my results.
What are your thoughts on the braketing method?. I dont know if you have read the article ever before, but I would like your feedback and thoughts on what Cribb writes regarding glucose.. thanks r-mac
(http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=132)
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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Bracketing aorund pre and post workout? I like it but it nothing new. You don't need glutamine either but for some reason he references studies that go against his arguement. Not surprising since they want to sell it.
"Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids.
Tipton KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, and Departments of Surgery and Anesthesiology, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.
We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and 3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased approximately 150-640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 +/- 13 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) and EAA (29 +/- 14 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1; P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.
Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise.
Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ.
Department of Anatomy and Physiology, University of Dundee, Dundee, United Kingdom DD1 4HN. [email protected]
The purpose of this study was to determine the efficacy of glutamine in promoting whole body carbohydrate storage and muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Postabsorptive subjects completed a glycogen-depleting exercise protocol, then consumed 330 ml of one of three drinks, 18.5% (wt/vol) glucose polymer solution, 8 g glutamine in 330 ml glucose polymer solution, or 8 g glutamine in 330 ml placebo, and also received a primed constant infusion of [1-13C]glucose for 2 h. Plasma glutamine concentration was increased after consumption of the glutamine drinks (0.7-1.1 mM, P < 0.05). In the second hour of recovery, whole body nonoxidative glucose disposal was increased by 25% after consumption of glutamine in addition to the glucose polymer (4.48 +/- 0.61 vs. 3.59 +/- 0.18 mmol/kg, P < 0.05). Oral glutamine alone promoted storage of muscle glycogen to an extent similar to oral glucose polymer. Ingestion of glutamine and glucose polymer together promoted the storage of carbohydrate outside of skeletal muscle, the most feasible site being the liver.
Here are ones he didn't reference for obvisou reasons:
The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.
Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.
Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.
The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.
The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.
van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.
Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. [email protected]
The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.
"Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids.
Tipton KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, and Departments of Surgery and Anesthesiology, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.
We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and 3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased approximately 150-640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 +/- 13 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) and EAA (29 +/- 14 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1; P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.
Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise.
Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ.
Department of Anatomy and Physiology, University of Dundee, Dundee, United Kingdom DD1 4HN. [email protected]
The purpose of this study was to determine the efficacy of glutamine in promoting whole body carbohydrate storage and muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Postabsorptive subjects completed a glycogen-depleting exercise protocol, then consumed 330 ml of one of three drinks, 18.5% (wt/vol) glucose polymer solution, 8 g glutamine in 330 ml glucose polymer solution, or 8 g glutamine in 330 ml placebo, and also received a primed constant infusion of [1-13C]glucose for 2 h. Plasma glutamine concentration was increased after consumption of the glutamine drinks (0.7-1.1 mM, P < 0.05). In the second hour of recovery, whole body nonoxidative glucose disposal was increased by 25% after consumption of glutamine in addition to the glucose polymer (4.48 +/- 0.61 vs. 3.59 +/- 0.18 mmol/kg, P < 0.05). Oral glutamine alone promoted storage of muscle glycogen to an extent similar to oral glucose polymer. Ingestion of glutamine and glucose polymer together promoted the storage of carbohydrate outside of skeletal muscle, the most feasible site being the liver.
Here are ones he didn't reference for obvisou reasons:
The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.
Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.
Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.
The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.
The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.
van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.
Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. [email protected]
The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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As far as glucose, he referemces studies that state "carbohydrates" and use a glucose polymer. When compared to carbohydrates with a lower GI, the results were the same.
Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.
Costill DL.
The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.
Costill DL.
The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
lionel
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So whats the bottom line.. if not high gi carbs pwo, then..?
Dwight Schrute
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Have you ever considered reading the thread?
R-Mac
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thanks for the info bobo
jminis
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Are you serious???? As the gate keeper I should banish you for that question. This is not not bb.com where people will sum the thread up for you guys that don't feel like reading the thread that's a whole 4 pages long. If you don't want to learn get out!!!!!!!!!!!
lionel
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Sorry guys.. me bad for being too lazy. Found out what i wanted already! Sorry!
jminis
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No problem bro glad you found your answer.
lionel
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Haha! So jminis, are you on low gi pwo too? What are your grams/type of carbs like?
jminis
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Right now I'm cutting so I take 40g of protein, with 40g of dextrose before my workout with a 40g protein shake post.
lionel
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Why do you take dex pre and not post workout?
Also, anybody out there on low gi too?
Also, anybody out there on low gi too?
westniles
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What about the fat in oats? Is the amount negligible?
jmh80
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Bobs - what kind of oats do you us PWO? Just regular rolled oats you can buy at Sam's?
ahsans
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Given that the glycemic index value of slow cooking oatmeal is 70, would it be just as effective to use a similar GI value powder, such as lactose (65)? And would it be even more effective than oats, given the value of lower GI nutrients post-workout, to use a very low GI value powder, such as fructose (32)?
IanfKirby
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I am just talking out of my arse here as an avid lurker/reader, but from what I've gathered from the experts sources around the boards (Alan, Bobo, Layne etc) they would probably tell you even though the GI of said powder is low, there is probably little or no micronutrient value when compared to oats. Even though I assume it a milk derivative, because lactose is actually the sugar present in milk, I would assume it would not retain milk's other numerous beneficial properties.
As for the fructose, despite its low GI, I believe fructose tends to replenish liver glycogen not muscle stores. This would essentially cause a pretty quick spill-over in the BB'er, though I think it would have more useful application perhaps in endurance athletes?
As for the fructose, despite its low GI, I believe fructose tends to replenish liver glycogen not muscle stores. This would essentially cause a pretty quick spill-over in the BB'er, though I think it would have more useful application perhaps in endurance athletes?
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